From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.8 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED, FREEMAIL_FROM,MAILING_LIST_MULTI,T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 23712 invoked from network); 11 Aug 2022 09:01:49 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (50.116.15.146) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 11 Aug 2022 09:01:49 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9C9AB404ED; Thu, 11 Aug 2022 19:01:26 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mout.web.de (mout.web.de [217.72.192.78]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5967E4001F for ; Thu, 11 Aug 2022 19:01:20 +1000 (AEST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=web.de; s=dbaedf251592; t=1660208477; bh=69sZc2wGZgXNvQ2zDe3cNcpHrBwPcprg4dBiTC3EbVI=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:Date:Subject:To:References:From:In-Reply-To; b=VFLqFxiLWLCnlHMaW6QOlStIkwzYbB0I4DxTETTEaf9CYlt8yPqUgYd3D17YKRpAW F2/D/6OCSBOcSVppYkXevFf5YcWjLciqdFEhkzCk3NjRNmnAjOp8P113G9PNFhV6OG gd/OgGTjsT/yM6pOoOoCbdl41cj2qOrJkejNq284= X-UI-Sender-Class: c548c8c5-30a9-4db5-a2e7-cb6cb037b8f9 Received: from [192.168.178.54] ([46.80.67.117]) by smtp.web.de (mrweb106 [213.165.67.124]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 1MQxo5-1nzjgY0ciN-00Nw2W; Thu, 11 Aug 2022 11:01:17 +0200 Message-ID: Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2022 11:01:16 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.8.0 To: Paul Ruizendaal , The Eunuchs Hysterical Society References: From: Holger Veit In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:Nw5FrXJtpRYeSBHX/5X19/yZ9Xd/ceU78bQkRczK/GiUJ6NZUjj h/Itc6ySFHTzNPUkU8TmJK3HwMf+76CKoY4NJTAmKMh8pQQI1+hINZH1vt+cRgIy4QyzMz5 nzv4FliVNwHmp7UCofbiQSBY7TYOhr4TtHWK6yG3LoHqRHneR0DiJJnFclPak5qWpii9u34 czrqYi3pqpO1C/383IIiw== X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:H+VoK27aXXo=:QvHQdaHRQX7TLvub++wdGX a2Pny4gR4V9/AVu4AycSlzzsvUFUVWAI4OEvam6ELEHIK84yfNX/0Dqhj6ylOJ3HP1f6QESl+ VDdgmAcceJ/ubBz0iYcnYst8PBQjM6PXfj76OvyYLI4CiNfXuuFxin6+qAJwDb7UPR8Z8rEOO svLbIbPzfi/5KdvnghKDs2WAKjSLi5VuJNqmNFvlh1PgwNJoAYJ5FVKMH23FSzTZm91HPTDKK AnVzcbBifA37wm1J0s5Sob94aiP7/8PifclqG5v0ZZqWz8zyEQDweOaIDnjBEmk1fwziymrZX yqKWf2XaKaOaM/12AnagTv1yTN056puzUJhDL10YQod9oVnP1UP4Bszu671N51qGyH4XU2zmb lo3A55zrP40ChGBqTSeAxGUhX4BrSDs0vw1eMPwisC5d5viCcnG/TBQeo5/yybcqoIg76JosC heZeZw9T/LdDOhhOiNFQ7iDxgIFdQSaeNQ6IIstAHHG1Pbylce/nWtp3xKMLY5QZetuuLslHm KMnxXKwZ7+ygVTxSs7Ki4wBcAH6LYFp96LtIdATtVFjSIBi8PVi9UqzhAXbaraNT4qPQ672Gt x71MzIvQGWzStIFmz39zOXnBZJINkgtVx+XRX5mEk+5EhBCdMhqdbwXHS4Oz5cCOGvzfkQDfH iIVTbhO+1Awkw1lYtP72dcMw3ptMQ9eulHvNbevf3LDa+h7VST1nDOv/NQ0KFXPpS1g0hyJod oVmj4Ra1VPoMlh+G9hLWvcekr6qiSbuDZNKloDYkxoDIocAWjkKPDraDP0oywbHcqQDoOvTFC 8fFf/c8Qu1C6n3ojqsf+FHlq2d1SJpN2g3p7G5R7RuEykhDvjorUU5XgBgmJZXmyhOqoLfJj6 HQWCYOV/N3hehiYtc/HQyWJ1qJS57XCwwdqAwEm7yaNstcC1vtVduI0u+xPcwBP+ESRyYbNJb kDP0v08NC+h4zudfqxKgKfKh8JE7b1U7yPxIjbUhi9yvLATW2XJHtoR4FETKvQ4j6HF0bl5uu 0Ox2MHlTvbVjJKFe9IwOn6g8rRmGWeMYg5EPZH3Ob9w4c1+FXl5tQ6BjEoutO5ylfz7ipsSYo +hyVnPwuQoquAov+H7WDxQqJOZ1qdi+j9bCdz9tW4y2NmfLYThpZaYudA== Message-ID-Hash: RN3GCS6IHBZGVQUDNPKV4B6IOTJASCZW X-Message-ID-Hash: RN3GCS6IHBZGVQUDNPKV4B6IOTJASCZW X-MailFrom: hveit01@web.de X-Mailman-Rule-Misses: dmarc-mitigation; no-senders; approved; emergency; loop; banned-address; member-moderation; header-match-tuhs.tuhs.org-0; nonmember-moderation; administrivia; implicit-dest; max-recipients; max-size; news-moderation; no-subject; digests; suspicious-header X-Mailman-Version: 3.3.6b1 Precedence: list Subject: [TUHS] Re: PCS Munix kernel source List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list Archived-At: List-Archive: List-Help: List-Owner: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Am 11.08.2022 um 08:04 schrieb Paul Ruizendaal: > MUNIX was an AT&T SVR3.x implementation ... > Are you sure? Could it perhaps be SVR2? (I don=E2=80=99t see any STREAMS= stuff that one would expect for R3). It is a hybrid system. I found files and similarities in R1, R2 as well as R3 - the C compiler (in my queue) for instance is likely derived (and heavily modified) from a R1 origin, but in this version itself linked with a C library where parts are newer, namely from a later released version (in the update 3-3.1 in tape IS0463P) which I'll add in the future. I am sure that the kernel libs will then reveal the missing streams stuff. I think it was a rolling release which also still contains parts of the older 16 bit MUNIX for a 68010 with Motorolas FFP lib - the kernel still contains an obsolete module named m68341 which emulates an incompatible floating point lib. The 32 bit system here demands a 68020/68881 combination. There are also several QBUS I/O drivers which seem to stem from the 16 bit systems which likely do no longer access real existing hardware because the newer systems used a communication controller board named ICC with an own 68010 processor and a highly stripped down tailored UNIX (?) on it. This is also on my to-do list. @readers of TUHS: can anyone say something about m68341? There are Motorola FFP libs elsewhere on the net, but this appears to be a complete copro emulation which intercepts the line-F interrupt which I could not locate so far. Internally, it is pretty much optimized - I doubt it was cooked at PCS itself, so it is likely a Motorola product. And no, it has absolutely nothing to do with the embedded controller MC68341. Currently I am dissecting the also rather unique a68 assembler which is a modified Trix/Mical assembler; after that, I'll look into the IS0463P update. >> The interesting feature of this kernel is the integration of the >> Newcastle Connection network > One of my interests is Unix (packet) networking 1975-1985 and that inclu= des Newcastle Connection. I=E2=80=99ve so far not dived deep into this, bu= t your work may be the trigger for some further investigation. > > My understanding so far (from reading the paper a few years ago) is that= Newcastle Connection works at the level of libc, substituting system cal= ls like open() and exec() with library routines that scan the path, and if= it is a network path invokes user mode routines that use remote procedure= calls to give the illusion of a networked kernel. I=E2=80=99ve briefly lo= oked at the Git repo, but I do not see that structure in the code. Could y= ou elaborate a bit more on how Newcastle Connection operates in this kerne= l? Happy to communicate off-list if it goes in too much detail. Maybe the original NC did so, but here there are numerous additions to the kernel, including a new syscall uipacket() which is the gateway into the MUNET/NC implementation. Stuff is in /usr/sys/munet, the low level networking is in uipacket.c and uiswtch.c which will process RPC open/close/read/write/exec etc. calls, as well support master and diskless nodes). The OS code is full of "if (master) {...} else {...}' code which then redirects detected access to remote paths to the network handler. > > I note that the repo Readme says that the kernel only does some basic IP= networking as a carrier, but I also see some files in the tree that seem = to implement a form of tcp (and that seem unrelated to the early Unix tcp/= ip=E2=80=99s that I have seen so far). Or am I reading too much into these= files? > > =3D=3D=3D > > Re-reading the Newcastle Connection paper also brought up some citations= from Bell Labs work that seems to have been lost. There is a reference to= =E2=80=9CRIDE=E2=80=9D which appears to be a system similar to Newcastle = Connection. The RIDE paper is from 1979 and it mentions that RIDE is a Dat= akit re-implementation of earlier an earlier system that ran on Spider. An= y recollections about these things among the TUHS readership? > > The other citation is for J. C. Kaufeld and D. L. Russell, "Distributed = UNIX System", in Workshop on Fundamental Issues in Distributed Computing, = ACM SIGOPS and SIGPLAN (15-17 Dec. 1980). It seems contemporaneous with th= e Luderer/Marshall/Chu work on S/F-Unix. I could not find this paper so fa= r. Here, too, any recollections about this distributed Unix among the TUHS= readership? Good to mention this. I am interested in such stuff as well. Regards Holger