[TUHS] Re: Berkeley CSRG Building

[TUHS] Re: Berkeley CSRG Building

[Noel Chiappa]

    > From: "Erik E. Fair"

    > before that, ARPANET was connected

NOTE: "ARPANET" is _always_ (**ALWAYS**) used with the definite article
("the"). Don't take my word for it; check out, e.g.

  A History of the ARPANET: The First Decade
  https://walden-family.com/bbn/arpanet-completion-report.pdf
  https://apps.dtic.mil/sti/pdfs/ADA115440.pdf

(There are a lot more contemporaneous documents - AFIPS conference papers,
etc - if anyone is interested in them.)

I was somewhat polite about it _this_ time.

	Noel

[TUHS] Re: Berkeley CSRG Building

[Will Senn]

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On 8/12/24 06:51, Noel Chiappa wrote:
>      > From: "Erik E. Fair"
>
>      > before that, ARPANET was connected
>
> NOTE: "ARPANET" is _always_ (**ALWAYS**) used with the definite article
> ("the"). Don't take my word for it; check out, e.g.
>
>    A History of the ARPANET: The First Decade
>    https://walden-family.com/bbn/arpanet-completion-report.pdf
>    https://apps.dtic.mil/sti/pdfs/ADA115440.pdf
>
> (There are a lot more contemporaneous documents - AFIPS conference papers,
> etc - if anyone is interested in them.)
>
> I was somewhat polite about it _this_ time.
>
> 	Noel
Nice. the ARPANET... why do I think history and language fluidity will 
win the war of words? google code-shifting. Just typing that last 
sentence is enough to give grammarians everywhere tremors.

Great links though.

Will

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[TUHS] Re: Berkeley CSRG Building

[Larry McVoy]

On Mon, Aug 12, 2024 at 07:51:31AM -0400, Noel Chiappa wrote:
>     > From: "Erik E. Fair"
> 
>     > before that, ARPANET was connected
> 
> NOTE: "ARPANET" is _always_ (**ALWAYS**) used with the definite article
> ("the"). Don't take my word for it; check out, e.g.
> 
>   A History of the ARPANET: The First Decade
>   https://walden-family.com/bbn/arpanet-completion-report.pdf
>   https://apps.dtic.mil/sti/pdfs/ADA115440.pdf
> 
> (There are a lot more contemporaneous documents - AFIPS conference papers,
> etc - if anyone is interested in them.)
> 
> I was somewhat polite about it _this_ time.
> 
> 	Noel

The amazing thing, to me, is I was a CS student in very early 1980's and I
had no idea of the history behind the arpanet.  I was on UUCP, lm@cs.wisc.edu
was not yet a thing for me.  All this history going on around me and I was
clueless.

The executive summary in that first link is spot on,  They knew what they
had.  

Sadly, they didn't anticipate facebook and bots et al, but I'm not sure,
even now, that they could have done anything about that, a packet is a
packet whether it is for good or evil.
-- 
---
Larry McVoy           Retired to fishing          http://www.mcvoy.com/lm/boat

[TUHS] Re: Berkeley CSRG Building

[Al Kossow]

On 8/12/24 7:23 AM, Larry McVoy wrote:
> I was on UUCP, lm@cs.wisc.edu
> was not yet a thing for me.  All this history going on around me and I was
> clueless.

and I was at UW-Milw who had a connection through INHP-4
Weirdly, I ran into Rusty at a rest stop on I-80 in Jan 1984 heading west.

[TUHS] Re: Berkeley CSRG Building

[Jaap Akkerhuis via TUHS]

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Hi Eric,

> On 17 Aug 2024, at 03:20, Eric Allman via TUHS <tuhs@tuhs.org> wrote:
> 
> Heh. It reminds me of some of Teus Hagen's escapades in the early days. But Teus was earlier, when networking meant UUCP.
> 

Yes.  I do remember him writing the first sendmail.cf file.  Many people
used his version which you could always recognize because of the comment
"Will this ever work?” or something like that.  I do remember I 
found it back in various Ultix and other distributions.  This is likely
because it ended up on the EUUG networking distribution tapes.

	jaap


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[TUHS] Re: Berkeley CSRG Building

[Eric Allman via TUHS]

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On 2024-08-16 17:47, George Michaelson wrote:
>
>
> On Sat, 17 Aug 2024, 7:08 am Eric Allman via TUHS, <tuhs@tuhs.org> wrote:
>
>     Don't forget DECnet (host::user) and things like some mercifully
>     dead UK network that reversed the domain names, so this mailing
>     list would be "tuhs@org.tuhs" <mailto:tuhs@org.tuhs>. And the
>     compiled in configuration that delivermail used was becoming
>     unwieldy as the world get bigger, hence a configuration file.
>
>     eric
>
>
> Steve Kille famously said on the JANET (for that was the network) uk 
> mail list for mail of the UK.ac decision "its research and its ok to 
> experiment" - the main advantage was clarity of the scoping to which 
> element to look at going to far off faroffia:  it was the rightmost 
> element in the token list for you normal people and the leftmost for 
> us. Since we are western alphabet and alrwsdy parsing the user@host 
> left to right it meant in principle the channel for faroffia was found 
> faster from a shorter index token starting from 0.

Ah yes, I was trying to remember JANET but was too lazy to do the research.

Honestly, I thought that JANET got it right and the rest of us 
different, so that:

user@top.middle.bottom (e.g., eric@edu.berkeley.cs)

would allow strict left-to-right parsing. Actually I wanted 
cs.berkeley.edu:eric — if that was true everywhere, sendmail would have 
been so much easier. A major reason for very generic rewriting rules is 
that basic parsing algorithms (notably LALR(1)) couldn't be made 
generic. At Berkeley

uunet!foo!bar@berkeley.edu

meant that the message should be sent to the UUCP host (ucbvax at the 
time, iirc, which from Ing70 translated to "ucbvax:uunet!foo!bar"), but

host::user@decwrl.com

should be sent to decwrl unchanged. See the book "!%@:: A directory of 
Electronic Mail Addressing & Networks" for a taste of just how bad it was.

>
> Jim at, Leeds uni and then heriot-watt wrote the sendmail.cf 
> <http://sendmail.cf> to dis-un-combobulate uk.ac <http://uk.ac> to 
> ac.uk <http://ac.uk> which obviously many many sysadmins in the UK ran 
> with. He was really meant to be doing functional programming research 
> I think. We shared an office for a few months at Leeds, it was ex 
> English school and reputedly where Tolkien sat out his days before 
> Cambridge came good. Leeds could have taken free(ish) mail from York 
> on x25 and preferred to dial the Heriot-Watt in edinburgh to get uucp. 
> Acoustic coupler modem days. I think has they known, Charles Forsyth 
> in York would have done uucp over Janet /x25 but people sometimes do 
> the other thing, not because it's hard but just because.
>
> G

Heh. It reminds me of some of Teus Hagen's escapades in the early days. 
But Teus was earlier, when networking meant UUCP.

eric

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[TUHS] Re: Berkeley CSRG Building

[George Michaelson]

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On Sat, 17 Aug 2024, 7:08 am Eric Allman via TUHS, <tuhs@tuhs.org> wrote:

> Don't forget DECnet (host::user) and things like some mercifully dead UK
> network that reversed the domain names, so this mailing list would be
> "tuhs@org.tuhs" <tuhs@org.tuhs>. And the compiled in configuration that
> delivermail used was becoming unwieldy as the world get bigger, hence a
> configuration file.
>
> eric
>

Steve Kille famously said on the JANET (for that was the network) uk mail
list for mail of the UK.ac decision "its research and its ok to experiment"
- the main advantage was clarity of the scoping to which element to look at
going to far off faroffia:  it was the rightmost element in the token list
for you normal people and the leftmost for us. Since we are western
alphabet and alrwsdy parsing the user@host left to right it meant in
principle the channel for faroffia was found faster from a shorter index
token starting from 0.

Jim at, Leeds uni and then heriot-watt wrote the sendmail.cf to
dis-un-combobulate uk.ac to ac.uk which obviously many many sysadmins in
the UK ran with. He was really meant to be doing functional programming
research I think. We shared an office for a few months at Leeds, it was ex
English school and reputedly where Tolkien sat out his days before
Cambridge came good. Leeds could have taken free(ish) mail from York on x25
and preferred to dial the Heriot-Watt in edinburgh to get uucp. Acoustic
coupler modem days. I think has they known, Charles Forsyth in York would
have done uucp over Janet /x25 but people sometimes do the other thing, not
because it's hard but just because.

G

>

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[TUHS] Re: Berkeley CSRG Building

[Clem Cole]

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thank you.
ᐧ

On Fri, Aug 16, 2024 at 5:08 PM Eric Allman <tuhs@eric.allman.name> wrote:

> Clem, normally your history is completely accurate, but this time I need
> to provide a few corrections.
> On 2024-08-12 10:34, Clem Cole wrote:
>
> csh et al.).   Bob later ran a serial line up the stairwells of Cory and
> picked up the Ingres and the first CAD machine.  Kurt Shoens, who was the
> primary UCB Mail author, hacked the Berknet support into his work.  One of
> his primary additions was removing the "delivery" part of the mail into a
> separate program - that he called "delivermail."
>
> Actually, I'm the one who separated the delivery into another program that
> was indeed called "delivermail". I modified /bin/mail to do actual delivery
> if it was invoked with -d, otherwise call delivermail. I took out the hacks
> for networks such as UUCP and moved them to delivermail.
>
>
> Eric Alman was the system administrator of Ing70, so Eric hacked
> delivermail to pass email to and from the Berknet to the ARPANET.  All
> was good until Ernie covax showed up and was connected to the UUCP net ;-)
>
> That part is correct. In fact, the ARPANET was the reason for delivermail
> in the first place. The BerkNet hacks had already been done to /bin/mail, I
> think by Eric Schmidt.
>
>
> Eric refers to that time as "the email format of the week" and sendmail
> was created to allow him to more easily handle the different formats.  By
> then there was the DARPA 733/822 format (user@host), Berknet (host:user),
> UUCP (host1!host2...!hostn!user) being sources at UCB, as well as crap
> showing up from the IBM Educational System, CSNET and various other places
> trying be exchanged.
>
> Don't forget DECnet (host::user) and things like some mercifully dead UK
> network that reversed the domain names, so this mailing list would be
> "tuhs@org.tuhs" <tuhs@org.tuhs>. And the compiled in configuration that
> delivermail used was becoming unwieldy as the world get bigger, hence a
> configuration file.
>
> But the real reason for sendmail was the advent of the Internet, which
> used an entirely new mail protocol called SMTP. That required implementing
> queuing and better error reporting than returning an exit status. Bill Joy
> talked me into it because "you know mail better than anyone around here." I
> didn't expect it to turn into the cornerstone of my professional life.
> There are more stories there, but they are off topic.
>
> eric
>
>

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[TUHS] Re: Berkeley CSRG Building

[Eric Allman via TUHS]

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Clem, normally your history is completely accurate, but this time I need 
to provide a few corrections.

On 2024-08-12 10:34, Clem Cole wrote:
> csh et al.).   Bob later ran a serial line up the stairwells of Cory 
> and picked up the Ingres and the first CAD machine.  Kurt Shoens, who 
> was the primary UCB Mail author, hacked the Berknet support into his 
> work.  One of his primary additions was removing the "delivery" part 
> of the mail into a separate program - that he called "delivermail."
Actually, I'm the one who separated the delivery into another program 
that was indeed called "delivermail". I modified /bin/mail to do actual 
delivery if it was invoked with -d, otherwise call delivermail. I took 
out the hacks for networks such as UUCP and moved them to delivermail.
>
> Eric Alman was the system administrator of Ing70, so Eric hacked 
> delivermail to pass email to and from the Berknet to the ARPANET. All 
> was good until Ernie covax showed up and was connected to the UUCP net ;-)
That part is correct. In fact, the ARPANET was the reason for 
delivermail in the first place. The BerkNet hacks had already been done 
to /bin/mail, I think by Eric Schmidt.
>
> Eric refers to that time as "the email format of the week" and 
> sendmail was created to allow him to more easily handle the different 
> formats.  By then there was the DARPA 733/822 format (user@host), 
> Berknet (host:user), UUCP (host1!host2...!hostn!user) being sources at 
> UCB, as well as crap showing up from the IBM Educational System, CSNET 
> and various other places trying be exchanged.

Don't forget DECnet (host::user) and things like some mercifully dead UK 
network that reversed the domain names, so this mailing list would be 
"tuhs@org.tuhs". And the compiled in configuration that delivermail used 
was becoming unwieldy as the world get bigger, hence a configuration file.

But the real reason for sendmail was the advent of the Internet, which 
used an entirely new mail protocol called SMTP. That required 
implementing queuing and better error reporting than returning an exit 
status. Bill Joy talked me into it because "you know mail better than 
anyone around here." I didn't expect it to turn into the cornerstone of 
my professional life. There are more stories there, but they are off topic.

eric


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[TUHS] Re: Berkeley CSRG Building

[Jon Forrest]

On 8/16/24 11:25 AM, Noel Chiappa wrote:
>      > From: Larry McVoy
> 
> {Moving this to COFF, as it's not UNIX-related. I'll have another reply there
> as well, about the social media point.}
> 
>      > The amazing thing, to me, is I was a CS student in very early 1980's
>      > and I had no idea of the history behind the arpanet.
> 
> I don't think that was that uncommon; at MIT (slightly earlier, I think -
> -'74-'77 for me) the undergrad's weren't learning anything about networking
> there either, then.


I was at UC Santa Barbara as an undergrad from 1973 to 1976, and then
back from 1978 to 1985. UCSB was one of the original 4 Arpanet nodes
but virtually nobody outside of a small group in EE knew about it.
I think the Culler-Harrison time sharing research and the speech
research at UCSB and SCRL (Speed Communication Research Laboratory,
a private speech research lab where many of the people were also
affiliated with UCSB), were some of the reasons why UCSB was on
the Arpanet so early.

There were no classes (that I'm aware of) that studied networking,
nor classes that used networking as a tool. In fact, the only
campus-wide network on campus was an Ungerman-Bass network used
to connect terminals to important nodes on campus. When I left UCSB
in 1985 the only WAN networking in place was DECNET between the
Physics Dept (where I was the computing manager) and SLAC.
Jim Frew, who sometimes posts on the list, could correct me if I'm wrong
about any of this. It was a long time ago.

Jon Forrest

[TUHS] Re: Berkeley CSRG Building

[Noel Chiappa]

    > From: Larry McVoy

{Moving this to COFF, as it's not UNIX-related. I'll have another reply there
as well, about the social media point.}

    > The amazing thing, to me, is I was a CS student in very early 1980's
    > and I had no idea of the history behind the arpanet.

I don't think that was that uncommon; at MIT (slightly earlier, I think -
-'74-'77 for me) the undergrad's weren't learning anything about networking
there either, then.

I think the reason is that there wasn't much to teach - in part because we
did not then know much about networking, and in part because it was not yet
crystal clear how important it would become (more below on that).

There was research going on in the area, but even at MIT one doesn't teach
(or didn't then; I don't know about now) on-going research subjects to
undergrads. MIT _did_ have, even then, a formal UROP ('undergrad research
opportunities') program, which allowed undergrads to be part of research
groups - a sheer genius idea - which in some fast-moving fields, like CS, was
an inestimable benefit to more forward undergrads in those fields.


I joined the CSR group at LCS in '77 because I had some operating system
ideas I wanted to work on; I had no idea at that point that they were doing
anything with networks. They took me on as the result of the sheerest chance;
they had just gotten some money from DARPA to build a LAN, and the interface
was going to be built for a UNIBUS PDP-11, and they needed diagnostics, etc
written; and they were all Multicians. I, by chance, knew PDP-11 assembler -
which none of them did - the MIT CS introductory course at that point taught
it. So the deal was that I'd help them with that, and I could use the machine
to explore my OS ideas in return.

Which never really happened; it fairly became clear to me that data
networking was going to have an enormous impact on the world, and at that
point it was also technically interesting, so I quickly got sucked into that
stuff. (I actually have a written document hiding in a file drawer somewhere
from 1978 or so, which makes it plain that that I'm not suffering 20-20
hindsight here, in talking about foreseeing the impact; I should dig it up.)

The future impact actually wasn't hard to foresee: looking at what printed
books had done to the world, and then telgraphs/telephones, and what
computers had already started to do at that point, it was clear that
combining them all was going to have an incredible impact (and we're still
adapting to it).


Learning about networking at the time was tricky. The ARPANET - well, NCP and
below - was pretty well documented in a couple of AFIPS papers (linked to at
the bottom here:

  https://gunkies.org/wiki/ARPANET

which I have a very vague memory I photocopied at the time out of the bound
AFIPS proceedings in the LCS library). The applications were only documented
in the RFC's.

(Speaking of which, at that level, the difference between the ARPANET and the
Internet was not very significant - it was only the internals, invisible to
the people who did 'application' protocols, that were completely different.
HTTP would probably run just fine on top of NCP, for instance.)

Anything past that, the start of the internet work, that, I picked up by i)
direct osmosis from other people in CSR who were starting to think about
networks - principally Dave Clark and Dave Reed - and then ii) from documents
prepared as part of the TCP/IP effort, which were distributed electronically.

Which is an interesting point; the ARPANET was a key tool in the internet
work. The most important aspect was email; non-stop discussion between the
widely separated groups who were part of the project. It also made document
distribution really easy (which had also been true of the latter stages of
the ARPANET project, with the RFC's). And of course it was also a long-haul
network that we used to tie the small internets at all the various sites
(BBN, SRI, ISI - and eventually MIT) into the larger Internet.

I hate to think about trying to do all that work on internets, and the
Internet, without the ARPANE there, as a tool.

	Noel

[TUHS] Re: Berkeley CSRG Building

[Phil Budne]

arnold@skeeve.com wrote:
> Clem Cole <clemc@ccc.com> wrote:
> > Eric refers to that time as "the email format of the week" and sendmail was
> > created to allow him to more easily handle the different formats.  By then
> > there was the DARPA 733/822 format (user@host), Berknet (host:user), UUCP
> > (host1!host2...!hostn!user) being sources at UCB, as well as crap showing
> > up from the IBM Educational System, CSNET and various other places trying
> > be exchanged.
>
> Small correction. CSNet didn't happen until the mid-80s, by which time
> sendmail was firmly entrenched in the BSD world. Circa 1987/1988, I was
> the Unix sysadmin at Emory U., and we got a CSNet connection via Georgia
> Tech. It required a leased X.25 (!) line and a special board to put
> in one of our Vaxen. There was a driver for it for 4.2BSD but we were
> running 4.3. Ron Hutchins at GT and I ported it over to 4.3BSD.

CSNet had a dialup POTS based service, PhoneNet, using MMDF.  I think
that was Boston University's 4.2BSD VAX 11/780's primary email
connection until we got an Internet connection via Cypress(*) c. 1986,
initially using an 11/725 (a re-packaged 11/730), running, I think,
Ultrix.

Back in the day, global email was a maze of twisty passages with
gateways between the worlds of The ARPANET, BITNET, UUCP, CSNet, etc,
and which required excruciating navigation with percent signs used for
manual routing, tho sendmail configs would route user@host.BITNET etc
to the right gateway with the right incantation.  Often, but not
always, a simple reply would work, but sometimes the rewrites didn't
get the sender address right...

(*) https://docs.lib.purdue.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1565&context=cstech

[TUHS] Re: Berkeley CSRG Building

[arnold]

Henry Bent <henry.r.bent@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Tue, 13 Aug 2024 at 14:31, <arnold@skeeve.com> wrote:
>
> > Around that time I did some work with Ease, which was a prettier
> > language for writing sendmail config files; the sources, including
> > my mods to it, are in comp.sources.unix somewhere.  I wrote a sendmail
> > config file *from scratch* using it.  As a result, the Morris worm
> > passed us by.  :-)
> >
>
> I believe the most recent version is preserved at
> https://sources.vsta.org/comp.sources.unix/volume25/ease3.5/

Thanks! I had forgotten that Bruce was the formal maintainer.
But I am named in the README. :-)

Hmmm. I see it was posted on

> Wrapped by vixie@cognition.pa.dec.com on Tue Dec 10 08:45:55 1991

That was well after I'd left Emory.

Thanks!

Arnold

[TUHS] Re: Berkeley CSRG Building

[Henry Bent]

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On Tue, 13 Aug 2024 at 14:31, <arnold@skeeve.com> wrote:

> Around that time I did some work with Ease, which was a prettier
> language for writing sendmail config files; the sources, including
> my mods to it, are in comp.sources.unix somewhere.  I wrote a sendmail
> config file *from scratch* using it.  As a result, the Morris worm
> passed us by.  :-)
>

I believe the most recent version is preserved at
https://sources.vsta.org/comp.sources.unix/volume25/ease3.5/

There are also older versions in that same archive if for some reason they
are of interest.

-Henry

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[TUHS] Re: Berkeley CSRG Building

[arnold]

Luther Johnson <luther.johnson@makerlisp.com> wrote:

> I really enjoy all the history and perspective. A phrase just popped in
> to my head, that I think for me, sums up much of Unix evolution. And it
> is something that not all Linux developers get, as many continue to
> mutate Linux further and further away from traditional Unix ideas:
>
> Necessity is the mother of *convention*.

This was carried even further in Plan 9, making it possible to transparently
network systems of different architectures.

Arnold

[TUHS] Re: Berkeley CSRG Building

[arnold]

Clem Cole <clemc@ccc.com> wrote:

> Eric refers to that time as "the email format of the week" and sendmail was
> created to allow him to more easily handle the different formats.  By then
> there was the DARPA 733/822 format (user@host), Berknet (host:user), UUCP
> (host1!host2...!hostn!user) being sources at UCB, as well as crap showing
> up from the IBM Educational System, CSNET and various other places trying
> be exchanged.

Small correction. CSNet didn't happen until the mid-80s, by which time
sendmail was firmly entrenched in the BSD world. Circa 1987/1988, I was
the Unix sysadmin at Emory U., and we got a CSNet connection via Georgia
Tech. It required a leased X.25 (!) line and a special board to put
in one of our Vaxen. There was a driver for it for 4.2BSD but we were
running 4.3. Ron Hutchins at GT and I ported it over to 4.3BSD.

Around that time I did some work with Ease, which was a prettier
language for writing sendmail config files; the sources, including
my mods to it, are in comp.sources.unix somewhere.  I wrote a sendmail
config file *from scratch* using it.  As a result, the Morris worm
passed us by.  :-)

Arnold

P.S. I have *literally* forgotten more about sendmail than most
people ever know. :-)

[TUHS] Re: Berkeley CSRG Building

[Luther Johnson]

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I really enjoy all the history and perspective. A phrase just popped in
to my head, that I think for me, sums up much of Unix evolution. And it
is something that not all Linux developers get, as many continue to
mutate Linux further and further away from traditional Unix ideas:

Necessity is the mother of *convention*.

I think what I wish more of the Linux community would understand, is
that most of Unix design style is what it is, in order to deal with the
above-stated reality, in a simple and practical way. Many times, when
faced with a choice that might seem arbitrary at the time, but because I
know that I never know, which choices will live on and have future
impacts, I think WWUD (what would Unix do) ?

On 08/12/2024 10:34 AM, Clem Cole wrote:
> Erik - great job - nothing to quibble about, here adding a little color.
>
> On Mon, Aug 12, 2024 at 4:16 AM Erik E. Fair <fair-tuhs@netbsd.org
> <mailto:fair-tuhs@netbsd.org>> wrote:
>
>     The key building is Evans Hall, a large, brutalist croncrete thing
>     that is slated to be demolished & replaced for earthquake concerns.
>
>     https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evans_Hall_(UC_Berkeley)
>     <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evans_Hall_%28UC_Berkeley%29>
>
>     ARPANET was connected to the Ingres PDP-11/45 (or 11/70?) in Cory Hall
>
> Ing70 via a VDH interface to LBL was rather late in the ARPANET history.
>
> UCB was supposed to have its own connection earlier, but for reasons I
> never knew, it did not happen.   I understand that it was targeted to
> be installed in the computer center, and UCB politics somehow waylayed
> it.  When the Ingres contract was let, the Ingres team got the VDH
> connection as a part of it.  No other systems could connect to the
> ARPANET.  As Erik mentioned, in '78 Eric Schimdt's MS thesis work was
> developing the RS-232C 9600 baud "Berk-Net" for three machines -- 2 in
> Evan and then a wire in the steam tunnel that Bob Kridle pulled
> allowed them to connect the Cory Hall70, which was the "student"
> system that was were the primary work for 1BSD and 2BSD  occurred
> (ex/csh et al.).   Bob later ran a serial line up the stairwells of
> Cory and picked up the Ingres and the first CAD machine.  Kurt Shoens,
> who was the primary UCB Mail author, hacked the Berknet support into
> his work. One of his primary additions was removing the "delivery"
> part of the mail into a separate program - that he called "delivermail."
>
> Eric Alman was the system administrator of Ing70, so Eric hacked
> delivermail to pass email to and from the Berknet to the ARPANET. All
> was good until Ernie covax showed up and was connected to the UUCP net ;-)
>
> Eric refers to that time as "the email format of the week" and
> sendmail was created to allow him to more easily handle the different
> formats.  By then there was the DARPA 733/822 format (user@host),
> Berknet (host:user), UUCP (host1!host2...!hostn!user) being sources at
> UCB, as well as crap showing up from the IBM Educational System, CSNET
> and various other places trying be exchanged.
>
>
>     The CS department (College of Letters & Science) offices were on
>     the 5th floor.
>
> Ah .. but CS was a division of EECS -- very interesting history about
> that.  The EE Dept was considered top three in the country and #1 by
> many ratings.  They already had a huge history of working with
> industry and had created the Industrial Laison Office (ILO - which was
> how the UNIX BSD tapes were distributed until the creation of CSRG and
> a factoid. The ILO folks advised Fabry on how to run CSRG)).  When CS
> was created, it was forked from the Math Dept. But, the Regents felt
> that if the CS was to have a chance to become a top 10 program, it
> needed to be put under the auspices of the EE Dept like MIT was -- and
> was attached to EE -- hence EECS.
>
>
>     The main campus computer center was in the basement, but they
>     charged by the CPU/second, so only classes used those systems - in
>     my day (1980-1983), the computer center had a CDC 6400 and six or
>     seven DEC PDP-11/70s.
>
> I could be wrong - but ISTR, there was an IBM 360/370 system down
> there also.
>
> The 70s were used to teach CS courses such as the one I taught -- I
> think Bart Miller, Mike Carey and I taught CS-40 a qtr or two after
> Erik was an undergrad.
>
>     BerkNet (RS-232c long haul lines) connected the PDP-11s
>
> Actually, not at all, which was all the more amazing.  There were just
> CAT3 twisted pair with no conditioning.   When we had an electrical
> storm, it was not usually to have the replace the 488/489 transcievers
> in the DHs or DZs.  Kridle got pretty adept and putting machines
> sockets into the boards and he kept a box of chips in his office.
>
>     , and later the VAXen, though Ethernet supplanted it.
>
> It was initially with 3Mbit Xerox boards. We were a little itchy about
> that, so Bob got an optical coupler/repeater (I assume from Xerox, but
> I don't know) in Cory's CAD machine room.   The 10M stuff came about
> two years later, originally 3COM equipment with.  There was a LAN in
> the Ingres machine room, another in the CAD, and another in CSRG's in
> Evans.  The UCB CAD machine was on all three networks as it was in the
> middle.  That is why Sam wrote the original routed stuff -- based on
> things he had seen at PARC for PUP.
>


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[TUHS] Re: Berkeley CSRG Building

[Clem Cole]

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Erik - great job - nothing to quibble about, here adding a little color.

On Mon, Aug 12, 2024 at 4:16 AM Erik E. Fair <fair-tuhs@netbsd.org> wrote:

> The key building is Evans Hall, a large, brutalist croncrete thing that is
> slated to be demolished & replaced for earthquake concerns.
>
>         https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evans_Hall_(UC_Berkeley)
>
> ARPANET was connected to the Ingres PDP-11/45 (or 11/70?) in Cory Hall
>
Ing70 via a VDH interface to LBL was rather late in the ARPANET history.

UCB was supposed to have its own connection earlier, but for reasons I
never knew, it did not happen.   I understand that it was targeted to be
installed in the computer center, and UCB politics somehow waylayed it.
When the Ingres contract was let, the Ingres team got the VDH connection as
a part of it.   No other systems could connect to the ARPANET.  As Erik
mentioned, in '78 Eric Schimdt's MS thesis work was developing the RS-232C
9600 baud "Berk-Net" for three machines -- 2 in Evan and then a wire in the
steam tunnel that Bob Kridle pulled allowed them to connect the Cory
Hall70, which was the "student" system that was were the primary work
for 1BSD and 2BSD  occurred (ex/csh et al.).   Bob later ran a serial line
up the stairwells of Cory and picked up the Ingres and the first CAD
machine.  Kurt Shoens, who was the primary UCB Mail author, hacked the
Berknet support into his work.  One of his primary additions was removing
the "delivery" part of the mail into a separate program - that he called
"delivermail."

Eric Alman was the system administrator of Ing70, so Eric hacked
delivermail to pass email to and from the Berknet to the ARPANET.  All was
good until Ernie covax showed up and was connected to the UUCP net ;-)

Eric refers to that time as "the email format of the week" and sendmail was
created to allow him to more easily handle the different formats.  By then
there was the DARPA 733/822 format (user@host), Berknet (host:user), UUCP
(host1!host2...!hostn!user) being sources at UCB, as well as crap showing
up from the IBM Educational System, CSNET and various other places trying
be exchanged.


> The CS department (College of Letters & Science) offices were on the 5th
> floor.
>
Ah .. but CS was a division of EECS -- very interesting history about
that.  The EE Dept was considered top three in the country and #1 by many
ratings.  They already had a huge history of working with industry and had
created the Industrial Laison Office (ILO - which was how the UNIX BSD
tapes were distributed until the creation of CSRG and a factoid. The ILO
folks advised Fabry on how to run CSRG)).  When CS was created, it was
forked from the Math Dept. But, the Regents felt that if the CS was to have
a chance to become a top 10 program, it needed to be put under the auspices
of the EE Dept like MIT was -- and was attached to EE -- hence EECS.

>
> The main campus computer center was in the basement, but they charged by
> the CPU/second, so only classes used those systems - in my day (1980-1983),
> the computer center had a CDC 6400 and six or seven DEC PDP-11/70s.

I could be wrong - but ISTR, there was an IBM 360/370 system down there
also.

The 70s were used to teach CS courses such as the one I taught -- I think
Bart Miller, Mike Carey and I taught CS-40 a qtr or two after Erik was an
undergrad.



> BerkNet (RS-232c long haul lines) connected the PDP-11s

Actually, not at all, which was all the more amazing.  There were just CAT3
twisted pair with no conditioning.   When we had an electrical storm, it
was not usually to have the replace the 488/489 transcievers in the DHs or
DZs.  Kridle got pretty adept and putting machines sockets into the boards
and he kept a box of chips in his office.



> , and later the VAXen, though Ethernet supplanted it.
>
It was initially with 3Mbit Xerox boards. We were a little itchy about
that, so Bob got an optical coupler/repeater (I assume from Xerox, but I
don't know) in Cory's CAD machine room.   The 10M stuff came about two
years later, originally 3COM equipment with.  There was a LAN in the Ingres
machine room, another in the CAD, and another in CSRG's in Evans.   The UCB
CAD machine was on all three networks as it was in the middle.  That is why
Sam wrote the original routed stuff -- based on things he had seen at PARC
for PUP.

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[TUHS] Re: Berkeley CSRG Building

[Al Kossow]

On 8/12/24 1:16 AM, Erik E. Fair wrote:

> The main campus computer center was in the basement, but they charged by the CPU/second
I made a similar pilgrimage when I moved out here in the mid 80s
I think the 6600 console was still in the hall, and there was a want ad for
a kernel hacker up on the wall from DEC WRL when they were bringing up Titan
I made a cold call there, but Smokey wasn't around (I was young and dumb!)

[TUHS] Re: Berkeley CSRG Building

[Pete Wright via TUHS]

Amazing - thanks so much!
-pete
Sent from my iPhone

> On Aug 12, 2024, at 1:16 AM, Erik E. Fair <fair-tuhs@netbsd.org> wrote:
> 
> The key building is Evans Hall, a large, brutalist croncrete thing that is slated to be demolished & replaced for earthquake concerns.
> 
>    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evans_Hall_(UC_Berkeley)
> 
> CSRG's offices & machine room (including ARPANET IMP #78 when that was delivered; before that, ARPANET was connected to the Ingres PDP-11/45 (or 11/70?) in Cory Hall) was on the 4th floor, east side - windowed offices had a view to the Hearst Mining Circle and the Molecular Biology buildin - windowed offices had a view to the Hearst Mining Circle and the Molecular Biology building.
> 
> The CS department (College of Letters & Science) offices were on the 5th floor.
> 
> The main campus computer center was in the basement, but they charged by the CPU/second, so only classes used those systems - in my day (1980-1983), the computer center had a CDC 6400 and six or seven DEC PDP-11/70s. BerkNet (RS-232c long haul lines) connected the PDP-11s, and later the VAXen, though Ethernet supplanted it.
> 
>    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berknet
> 
> The other building of note is Cory Hall - that's where the EECS (College of Engineering) was headquartered, and the Cory Hall DEC PDP-11/70 was in a couple of rooms on the south side of the west entrance, with an additional terminal room just opposite on the north side.
> 
>    https://eecs.berkeley.edu/about/visiting/
> 
> I believe all of CS has since moved into Soda Hall on the other side of Hearst Avenue, which is built atop the site of UCB's former (decommissioned) nuclear reactor.
> 
>    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TRIGA
> 
> The neighborhood has changed, but it looks like La Val's Pizza is still there on Euclid Avenue - one of the favored student hangouts in those days. The Top Dog sausage restaurant has closed its Hearst Avenue branch, but the location on Durant Avenue (southside of campus) is still there for additional local flavor. There were (and probably still are) many fine restaurants along Shattuck Avenue in downtown Berkeley and points north.
> 
> I also recommend the commanding view westward of the San Franciso Bay from the Lawrence Hall of Science (LHS) -
>    https://lawrencehallofscience.org/visitors/directions-parking/
> 
> which was also used as the exterior of an AI computer control center for a dystopian movie:
> 
>    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colossus:_The_Forbin_Project
> 
> Some of that view could also be had in the 10th floor (west side) UCB Mathematics grad student lounge in Evans Hall, but I think that's no longer accessible.
> 
>    Erik Fair

[TUHS] Re: Berkeley CSRG Building

[Erik E. Fair]

The key building is Evans Hall, a large, brutalist croncrete thing that is slated to be demolished & replaced for earthquake concerns.

	https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evans_Hall_(UC_Berkeley)

CSRG's offices & machine room (including ARPANET IMP #78 when that was delivered; before that, ARPANET was connected to the Ingres PDP-11/45 (or 11/70?) in Cory Hall) was on the 4th floor, east side - windowed offices had a view to the Hearst Mining Circle and the Molecular Biology buildin - windowed offices had a view to the Hearst Mining Circle and the Molecular Biology building.

The CS department (College of Letters & Science) offices were on the 5th floor.

The main campus computer center was in the basement, but they charged by the CPU/second, so only classes used those systems - in my day (1980-1983), the computer center had a CDC 6400 and six or seven DEC PDP-11/70s. BerkNet (RS-232c long haul lines) connected the PDP-11s, and later the VAXen, though Ethernet supplanted it.

	https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berknet

The other building of note is Cory Hall - that's where the EECS (College of Engineering) was headquartered, and the Cory Hall DEC PDP-11/70 was in a couple of rooms on the south side of the west entrance, with an additional terminal room just opposite on the north side.

	https://eecs.berkeley.edu/about/visiting/

I believe all of CS has since moved into Soda Hall on the other side of Hearst Avenue, which is built atop the site of UCB's former (decommissioned) nuclear reactor.

	https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TRIGA

The neighborhood has changed, but it looks like La Val's Pizza is still there on Euclid Avenue - one of the favored student hangouts in those days. The Top Dog sausage restaurant has closed its Hearst Avenue branch, but the location on Durant Avenue (southside of campus) is still there for additional local flavor. There were (and probably still are) many fine restaurants along Shattuck Avenue in downtown Berkeley and points north.

I also recommend the commanding view westward of the San Franciso Bay from the Lawrence Hall of Science (LHS) -

	https://lawrencehallofscience.org/visitors/directions-parking/

which was also used as the exterior of an AI computer control center for a dystopian movie:

	https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colossus:_The_Forbin_Project

Some of that view could also be had in the 10th floor (west side) UCB Mathematics grad student lounge in Evans Hall, but I think that's no longer accessible.

	Erik Fair