From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.1 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_SIGNED,DKIM_VALID, DKIM_VALID_AU,MAILING_LIST_MULTI autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 24675 invoked from network); 18 Jan 2023 21:10:01 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (50.116.15.146) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 18 Jan 2023 21:10:01 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3EF704242B; Thu, 19 Jan 2023 07:09:38 +1000 (AEST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=tuhs.org; s=dkim; t=1674076178; h=from:from:reply-to:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date: message-id:message-id:to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version: content-type:content-type: content-transfer-encoding:content-transfer-encoding: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references:list-id:list-help: list-owner:list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe:list-post; bh=HEA/ADGTonykg9gxoqrOv3ruuDp+Nykhxkoyzt0xbMQ=; b=HOtHKu8AHANo4L2wyysuRUCxM5XAqBemkYhu6uGNEHo365Ko6616/7XajnhNHF7r9uSmtF 966a/DZkvx4Y3LlEweiK+IXHQf7aHAA8NZIVwRyBevB72aRLwsuj/XMJETP8a/88m3D+Hx Dj1Kwf+rOEZnj0pRAECzz0SJ1kLJmdw= Received: from mail-4325.protonmail.ch (mail-4325.protonmail.ch [185.70.43.25]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9EB2B4242A for ; Thu, 19 Jan 2023 07:09:33 +1000 (AEST) Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2023 21:09:24 +0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=protonmail.com; s=protonmail3; t=1674076171; x=1674335371; bh=HEA/ADGTonykg9gxoqrOv3ruuDp+Nykhxkoyzt0xbMQ=; h=Date:To:From:Cc:Subject:Message-ID:In-Reply-To:References: Feedback-ID:From:To:Cc:Date:Subject:Reply-To:Feedback-ID: Message-ID:BIMI-Selector; b=LhF2drvZiEfhCWNflKhn7y2MDPngf8/qv1X6CPeqJH0kC4FNzxAQCAm7zFll0lfQ2 ds3LKLbafj0Pr3XOiuLld95CcwXP80IqUE1/6murR2F3DrD989MayTmPsu2cev8hYR LOVmoAwX8Nc5F9WDygQ+FRYRyZj4zW+t5Gc5lPAwg7ipsu4wn4+ffwFYp1L3I7fLsv BE9RjcpVAN89jFFfJF3WsmCawIAim4IKphOeIzYm4aMe3fRvW5gHLu6CVbTQkjI1ZJ XPxT1Zpd+RNS43a+YwB+f99F+C/UrcJmEzP5MgzzXwnLJTKPZHTEROh0XOV+aRfMrX y4tgSS6MnxGqw== To: Will Senn Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <80641ed1-b0a1-78f8-fabe-83c13b9a9ade@gmail.com> References: <202301180943.30I9hrOw030485@freefriends.org> <202301181513.30IFDDUJ015224@freefriends.org> <20230118151446.GD2964@mcvoy.com> <20230118161959.GE2964@mcvoy.com> <2f00f9a6-c57d-8490-4066-931ec6e191cd@gmail.com> <20230118164242.GG2964@mcvoy.com> <13b87744-306e-7ecc-a0d0-9305d4b7d958@gmail.com> <20230118171633.GH2964@mcvoy.com> <80641ed1-b0a1-78f8-fabe-83c13b9a9ade@gmail.com> Feedback-ID: 35591162:user:proton MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-ID-Hash: VACLCIM3EZWNPM45T2MOZLI5GLIYYOKQ X-Message-ID-Hash: VACLCIM3EZWNPM45T2MOZLI5GLIYYOKQ X-MailFrom: segaloco@protonmail.com X-Mailman-Rule-Misses: dmarc-mitigation; no-senders; approved; emergency; loop; banned-address; member-moderation; header-match-tuhs.tuhs.org-0; nonmember-moderation; administrivia; implicit-dest; max-recipients; max-size; news-moderation; no-subject; digests; suspicious-header CC: tuhs@tuhs.org X-Mailman-Version: 3.3.6b1 Precedence: list Subject: [TUHS] Re: AIX moved into maintainance mode List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list Archived-At: List-Archive: List-Help: List-Owner: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: From: segaloco via TUHS Reply-To: segaloco Something I think would do wonders for UNIX diversity (although I obviously= haven't done a feasibility analysis) is a convergence or at least some sor= t of homogenization of driver interfaces. That is one of the key areas whe= re I think faster movement would have me using BSDs exclusively, but at any= given time I can't expect the same hardware support from anything other th= an the Linux kernel. I'm not in the know on current driver interfaces to k= now if its apples to apples, apples to oranges, or apples to hypercubes. B= ut still, if *BSD supported the BCM2711 in entirety w/ graphics accel and o= nboard SDIO-driven wifi, Linux would serve me no advantage at present other= than I know how to tune the kernel build a lot better. Granted, driver support is not only implicated here, I'd be a lot more noma= dic with operating systems if I knew I could work on hobby projects across = the preponderance of them efficiently. At the end of the day I just want a system with a POSIX-friendly kernel tha= t works with all my devices and doesn't have a complicated userland. As of= present, GNU/Linux w/ sysvinit is the happy medium, although one of these = days I mean to research in earnest if there's a BSD/V7-ish init that actual= ly gels well with Linux+Glibc userspace. - Matt G. ------- Original Message ------- On Wednesday, January 18th, 2023 at 9:25 AM, Will Senn wrote: > Fair enough, but the worlds a little more forgiving than all that doom > and gloom :). If an innovation happens in BSDland, it generally gets > ported into Linuxland, in time, and visa versa. I heart linux, don't get > me wrong. I just wish they would... >=20 >=20 > On 1/18/23 11:16 AM, Larry McVoy wrote: >=20 > > Well if you want to use your precious time working on some BSD, by all > > means, it's your time. I looked at where the BSDs were going 30 years a= go > > and decided that helping Linux would be a better return on investment. > > I don't say that happily, SunOS was my happy place and it was the best > > BSD that ever existed. Turning to Linux was not easy but history has > > shown it to have been the right choice for me. > >=20 > > The problem with BSD is a lack of users. Linux has so many more people > > using it, the chances of one of them finding the problem and getting it > > fixed, before I hit it, are dramatically higher than the same thing wit= h > > a BSD release. > >=20 > > On Wed, Jan 18, 2023 at 10:57:17AM -0600, Will Senn wrote: > >=20 > > > Pretty sure Netflix CDN is still using it as are other vendors in nee= d of > > > stable and fast. Just cuz my neighbor doesn't use it, or joe website = hoster > > > doesn't use it doesn't relegate it to the nobody uses it pile. > > >=20 > > > On 1/18/23 10:42 AM, Larry McVoy wrote: > > >=20 > > > > Wishful thinking. An OS needs critical mass in terms of developers. > > > > The BSD efforts divided their devs by having multiple efforts. It > > > > was very obvious from the beginning that Linux was getting all the > > > > developers. Go look at the rate of commits to Linux vs the rate > > > > of commits to {Net,Open,Free,DragonFly,etc}BSD. > > > >=20 > > > > They aren't dead as in nobody does anything to them but they are > > > > dead in that very few people use them. > > > >=20 > > > > Look, Linux users are tiny compared to Windows / MacOS, I think the > > > > desktop users is around 1%. BSD users are even more tiny than Linux= . > > > >=20 > > > > On Wed, Jan 18, 2023 at 10:36:48AM -0600, Will Senn wrote: > > > >=20 > > > > > Hi Larry, > > > > >=20 > > > > > I disagree, but only time will tell. I don't think BSD is dead is= really a > > > > > fair statement, unless you're referring to the actual distributio= n. As a > > > > > line, I think it's still viable (I run it in several flavors and = it works, > > > > > much more reliably than most linuxes which I also run in multiple= flavors). > > > > > That said, everybody :) it seems, seems to be on the Linux is the= future > > > > > bandwagon with seemingly only a few of us holdouts. Just a couple= of days > > > > > ago I spun up a TrueNAS instance and it was glorious - of course = it was > > > > > CORE, try that with SCALE :). > > > > >=20 > > > > > It does seem like the wave favors Windows, Mac, and Linux... But,= just cuz > > > > > they're popular doesn't mean the less popular OSes are dead (I sa= y this as I > > > > > gaze fondly over towards my KIM-1 clone and think of Monitor. > > > > >=20 > > > > > Will > > > > >=20 > > > > > On 1/18/23 10:19 AM, Larry McVoy wrote: > > > > >=20 > > > > > > Pretty unrealistic to expect the users to suddenly have the tim= e to do > > > > > > kernel dev. Solaris opened sourced itself and it's dead. > > > > > >=20 > > > > > > It's a lot of work to maintain and evolve an OS. Windows, MacOS= , and > > > > > > Linux seem like the future. > > > > > >=20 > > > > > > As for BSD, they pretty much killed themselves by all the in-fi= ghting and > > > > > > the lack of someone like Linus. That was obvious 30 years ago a= nd it > > > > > > hasn't changed. That's why I switched from BSD to Linux. > > > > > >=20 > > > > > > On Wed, Jan 18, 2023 at 04:10:34PM +0000, segaloco wrote: > > > > > >=20 > > > > > > > I just hope we'll see some attempts at opening up these code = bases as time goes on. Seeing as they're no longer going to be pushing new = copies and will eventually ramp down maintenance releases, opening up the s= ource would give their end users the ability to potentially float their own= improvements if they can't immediately migrate to Linux or BSD. That said,= security implications of course, don't want to just hand bad actors a code= base to comb for memory unsafety in. > > > > > > >=20 > > > > > > > Also this article is BSD erasure :(, no mentions of the big t= hree save that OpenServer and Darwin have chunks of FreeBSD in them. I gues= s Berkeley is just chopped liver... > > > > > > >=20 > > > > > > > - Matt G. > > > > > > >=20 > > > > > > > ------- Original Message ------- > > > > > > > On Wednesday, January 18th, 2023 at 7:14 AM, Larry McVoy lm@m= cvoy.com wrote: > > > > > > >=20 > > > > > > > > It makes perfect sense, it's a repeated story, commercial l= oses out > > > > > > > > to free. > > > > > > > >=20 > > > > > > > > On Wed, Jan 18, 2023 at 08:13:13AM -0700, arnold@skeeve.com= wrote: > > > > > > > >=20 > > > > > > > > > Interestingly enough, Phil Hughes, who founded Linux Jour= nal > > > > > > > > > in the early 1990s, predicted that this would happen one = day. > > > > > > > > > This was in a private conversation we had. I thought he > > > > > > > > > was crazy, but he was right. > > > > > > > > >=20 > > > > > > > > > arnold@skeeve.com wrote: > > > > > > > > >=20 > > > > > > > > > > https://www.theregister.com/2023/01/17/unix_is_dead/ > > > > > > > > > >=20 > > > > > > > > > > FYI. > > > > > > > > > >=20 > > > > > > > > > > Arnold > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > > > > --- > > > > > > > > > > Larry McVoy Retired to fishing http://www.mcvoy.com/lm/= boat