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* [TUHS] Book: "You Are Not Expected to Understand This"
@ 2022-11-13  0:02 Dave Horsfall
  2022-11-13  0:25 ` [TUHS] " Kenneth Goodwin
                   ` (2 more replies)
  0 siblings, 3 replies; 12+ messages in thread
From: Dave Horsfall @ 2022-11-13  0:02 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society

I spotted this when glancing through a book catalogue; well, with a title 
like that how could I miss it?

Subtitled "How 26 Lines of Code Changed the World", edited by Torie Bosch 
and illustrated by Kelly Chudler (can't say that I've heard of them).

Summary:

``Programming is behind so much of life today, and this book draws together
  a group of distinguished thinkers and technologists to reveal the
  stories and people behind the computer coding that shapes our
  world.  From how university's [sic] databases were set up to
  recognise only two genders to the first computer worm and the
  first pop-up ad, the diverse topics reveal the consequences of
  historical decisions and their long-lasting, profound implications.
  Pb $34.99''

Lines of code, eh? :-)

Abbey's Bookshop: www.abbeys.com.au

Disclaimer: I have no connection with them, but I'll likely buy it.

-- Dave

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 12+ messages in thread

* [TUHS] Re: Book: "You Are Not Expected to Understand This"
  2022-11-13  0:02 [TUHS] Book: "You Are Not Expected to Understand This" Dave Horsfall
@ 2022-11-13  0:25 ` Kenneth Goodwin
  2022-11-13  1:12   ` Rob Pike
  2022-11-13  1:12 ` Stuff Received
  2022-11-14 22:48 ` Dave Horsfall
  2 siblings, 1 reply; 12+ messages in thread
From: Kenneth Goodwin @ 2022-11-13  0:25 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Dave Horsfall; +Cc: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society

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Maybe it is just me, but I don't recognize any of the contributors listed
either at the bottom

On Sat, Nov 12, 2022, 7:20 PM Dave Horsfall <dave@horsfall.org> wrote:

> I spotted this when glancing through a book catalogue; well, with a title
> like that how could I miss it?
>
> Subtitled "How 26 Lines of Code Changed the World", edited by Torie Bosch
> and illustrated by Kelly Chudler (can't say that I've heard of them).
>
> Summary:
>
> ``Programming is behind so much of life today, and this book draws together
>   a group of distinguished thinkers and technologists to reveal the
>   stories and people behind the computer coding that shapes our
>   world.  From how university's [sic] databases were set up to
>   recognise only two genders to the first computer worm and the
>   first pop-up ad, the diverse topics reveal the consequences of
>   historical decisions and their long-lasting, profound implications.
>   Pb $34.99''
>
> Lines of code, eh? :-)
>
> Abbey's Bookshop: www.abbeys.com.au
>
> Disclaimer: I have no connection with them, but I'll likely buy it.
>
> -- Dave
>

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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 12+ messages in thread

* [TUHS] Re: Book: "You Are Not Expected to Understand This"
  2022-11-13  0:02 [TUHS] Book: "You Are Not Expected to Understand This" Dave Horsfall
  2022-11-13  0:25 ` [TUHS] " Kenneth Goodwin
@ 2022-11-13  1:12 ` Stuff Received
  2022-11-13 21:58   ` Dave Horsfall
  2022-11-14 22:48 ` Dave Horsfall
  2 siblings, 1 reply; 12+ messages in thread
From: Stuff Received @ 2022-11-13  1:12 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: tuhs

On 2022-11-12 19:02, Dave Horsfall wrote:
> I spotted this when glancing through a book catalogue; well, with a title
> like that how could I miss it?
>
> Subtitled "How 26 Lines of Code Changed the World", edited by Torie Bosch
> and illustrated by Kelly Chudler (can't say that I've heard of them).
>
> Summary:
>
> ``Programming is behind so much of life today, and this book draws together
>    a group of distinguished thinkers and technologists to reveal the
>    stories and people behind the computer coding that shapes our
>    world.  From how university's [sic] databases were set up to
>    recognise only two genders to the first computer worm and the
>    first pop-up ad, the diverse topics reveal the consequences of
>    historical decisions and their long-lasting, profound implications.
>    Pb $34.99''
>
> Lines of code, eh? :-)
>
> Abbey's Bookshop: www.abbeys.com.au
>
> Disclaimer: I have no connection with them, but I'll likely buy it.
>
> -- Dave

Does subscribe to COFF anymore?  I mentioned this a few weeks ago on 
COFF (https://minnie.tuhs.org/pipermail/coff/2022-October/001315.html) 
with only one reply.

N.

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 12+ messages in thread

* [TUHS] Re: Book: "You Are Not Expected to Understand This"
  2022-11-13  0:25 ` [TUHS] " Kenneth Goodwin
@ 2022-11-13  1:12   ` Rob Pike
  2022-11-13  1:52     ` Larry McVoy
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 12+ messages in thread
From: Rob Pike @ 2022-11-13  1:12 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Kenneth Goodwin; +Cc: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society

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I find it fascinating how, just a few years after the difficulty of stack
switching required a commented challenge in the Unix source, we were using
setjmp and longjmp to do this with no fuss at all. Once the problem is
solved, the solution can simplify dramatically.

See https://github.com/plan9foundation/plan9/blob/main/sys/src/9/port/proc.c
for instance - almost all of sched is bookkeeping and a comment about
locks. The little burst at the bottom, starting around line 163, that does
the work is so compact. (setlabel and gotolabel are setjmp and longjmp.)

Insight.

-rob


On Sun, Nov 13, 2022 at 11:26 AM Kenneth Goodwin <kennethgoodwin56@gmail.com>
wrote:

> Maybe it is just me, but I don't recognize any of the contributors listed
> either at the bottom
>
> On Sat, Nov 12, 2022, 7:20 PM Dave Horsfall <dave@horsfall.org> wrote:
>
>> I spotted this when glancing through a book catalogue; well, with a title
>> like that how could I miss it?
>>
>> Subtitled "How 26 Lines of Code Changed the World", edited by Torie Bosch
>> and illustrated by Kelly Chudler (can't say that I've heard of them).
>>
>> Summary:
>>
>> ``Programming is behind so much of life today, and this book draws
>> together
>>   a group of distinguished thinkers and technologists to reveal the
>>   stories and people behind the computer coding that shapes our
>>   world.  From how university's [sic] databases were set up to
>>   recognise only two genders to the first computer worm and the
>>   first pop-up ad, the diverse topics reveal the consequences of
>>   historical decisions and their long-lasting, profound implications.
>>   Pb $34.99''
>>
>> Lines of code, eh? :-)
>>
>> Abbey's Bookshop: www.abbeys.com.au
>>
>> Disclaimer: I have no connection with them, but I'll likely buy it.
>>
>> -- Dave
>>
>

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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 12+ messages in thread

* [TUHS] Re: Book: "You Are Not Expected to Understand This"
  2022-11-13  1:12   ` Rob Pike
@ 2022-11-13  1:52     ` Larry McVoy
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 12+ messages in thread
From: Larry McVoy @ 2022-11-13  1:52 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Rob Pike; +Cc: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society

On Sun, Nov 13, 2022 at 12:12:32PM +1100, Rob Pike wrote:
> See https://github.com/plan9foundation/plan9/blob/main/sys/src/9/port/proc.c
> for instance - almost all of sched is bookkeeping and a comment about
> locks. The little burst at the bottom, starting around line 163, that does
> the work is so compact. (setlabel and gotolabel are setjmp and longjmp.)

This reminds me of code I did for Udi Manber as a grad (or undergrad)
student.  He wanted a user space threads library so I wrote one.
It's where I learned how to write swtch() where you enter as one thread
and exit as another one.  99% of the code was C that did all the stuff
you could do in C and then a small amount of assembler that did the flip.

I had heard that swtch() was hard but it really isn't that bad.
The assembler makes you learn that stuff but you need to know that stuff
anyway.  I do agree with people who say you aren't a kernel engineer if
you haven't written, or at least understood, that code.

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 12+ messages in thread

* [TUHS] Re: Book: "You Are Not Expected to Understand This"
  2022-11-13  1:12 ` Stuff Received
@ 2022-11-13 21:58   ` Dave Horsfall
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 12+ messages in thread
From: Dave Horsfall @ 2022-11-13 21:58 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society

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On Sat, 12 Nov 2022, Stuff Received wrote:

> Does subscribe to COFF anymore?  I mentioned this a few weeks ago on 
> COFF (https://minnie.tuhs.org/pipermail/coff/2022-October/001315.html) 
> with only one reply.

Haven't seen anything from COFF for some weeks now; anyway I figured that 
is was more "historical Unix" than "old geezer" stuff, hence TUHS.

-- Dave

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 12+ messages in thread

* [TUHS] Re: Book: "You Are Not Expected to Understand This"
  2022-11-13  0:02 [TUHS] Book: "You Are Not Expected to Understand This" Dave Horsfall
  2022-11-13  0:25 ` [TUHS] " Kenneth Goodwin
  2022-11-13  1:12 ` Stuff Received
@ 2022-11-14 22:48 ` Dave Horsfall
  2 siblings, 0 replies; 12+ messages in thread
From: Dave Horsfall @ 2022-11-14 22:48 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society

On Sun, 13 Nov 2022, Dave Horsfall wrote:

> Disclaimer: I have no connection with them, but I'll likely buy it.

The book just arrived (that was fast!); I'll review it when I get a 
chance, as I'm flat out like a lizard drinking right now.

-- Dave

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 12+ messages in thread

* [TUHS] Re: Book: "You Are Not Expected to Understand This"
  2022-11-14 19:17 ` Larry McVoy
@ 2022-11-14 19:50   ` Dave Horsfall
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 12+ messages in thread
From: Dave Horsfall @ 2022-11-14 19:50 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society

On Mon, 14 Nov 2022, Larry McVoy wrote:

> > Are you sure?  I thought Fountainhead was a Rand project.
> > 
> > PS: if you don't get it, consider yourself fortunate.
> 
> I get it.  Teenage me thought Rand was a genius, adult me changed his 
> mind.

I certainly had to think about it for a while...

-- Dave, getting off-topic

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 12+ messages in thread

* [TUHS] Re: Book: "You Are Not Expected to Understand This"
  2022-11-14 16:58 Norman Wilson
@ 2022-11-14 19:17 ` Larry McVoy
  2022-11-14 19:50   ` Dave Horsfall
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 12+ messages in thread
From: Larry McVoy @ 2022-11-14 19:17 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Norman Wilson; +Cc: tuhs

On Mon, Nov 14, 2022 at 11:58:36AM -0500, Norman Wilson wrote:
> Clem Cole:
> 
>   Yep -- but not surprising.   There were a bunch of folks at DG that had
>   worked on a single-level store system (Project Fountain-Head) that had
>   failed [some of that story is described in Kidder's book].
> 
> ====
> 
> Are you sure?  I thought Fountainhead was a Rand project.
> 
> Norman Wilson
> Toronto ON
> 
> PS: if you don't get it, consider yourself fortunate.

I get it.  Teenage me thought Rand was a genius, adult me changed his mind.
-- 
---
Larry McVoy           Retired to fishing          http://www.mcvoy.com/lm/boat

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 12+ messages in thread

* [TUHS] Re: Book: "You Are Not Expected to Understand This"
@ 2022-11-14 16:58 Norman Wilson
  2022-11-14 19:17 ` Larry McVoy
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 12+ messages in thread
From: Norman Wilson @ 2022-11-14 16:58 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: tuhs

Clem Cole:

  Yep -- but not surprising.   There were a bunch of folks at DG that had
  worked on a single-level store system (Project Fountain-Head) that had
  failed [some of that story is described in Kidder's book].

====

Are you sure?  I thought Fountainhead was a Rand project.

Norman Wilson
Toronto ON

PS: if you don't get it, consider yourself fortunate.

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 12+ messages in thread

* [TUHS] Re: Book: "You Are Not Expected to Understand This"
  2022-11-14 14:14 Douglas McIlroy
@ 2022-11-14 15:50 ` Clem Cole
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 12+ messages in thread
From: Clem Cole @ 2022-11-14 15:50 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Douglas McIlroy; +Cc: TUHS main list

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On Mon, Nov 14, 2022 at 9:16 AM Douglas McIlroy <
douglas.mcilroy@dartmouth.edu> wrote:

> "One view of the memory, period." That describes Multics.
>
Yep -- but not surprising.   There were a bunch of folks at DG that had
worked on a single-level store system (Project Fountain-Head) that had
failed [some of that story is described in Kidder's book]. They had studied
Multics extensively, and that system supposedly had taken a great deal from
it.  I never completely knew what happened other than something went south
and it end up getting canceled.  I later got to know of a number of the
MV10000 folks (who later joined us in the HW team at Stellar).   But I
believe a bit issue with Fountain Head was both new HW and SW, whereas the
MV10000 allowed Nova /Eclipse code to 'just work.'  [Kidder makes a big
deal out of this in the book].

The lessons and relevance to TUHS I think are a couple of things:
1.) When they did DG-UX, the SW folks had previously developed a kernel
with that view, so it's not surprising.
2.) Cost of >>solution development<< is the real end-customer/deployer
driver (economics beats architecture).

Clem
ᐧ

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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 12+ messages in thread

* [TUHS] Re: Book: "You Are Not Expected to Understand This"
@ 2022-11-14 14:14 Douglas McIlroy
  2022-11-14 15:50 ` Clem Cole
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 12+ messages in thread
From: Douglas McIlroy @ 2022-11-14 14:14 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: TUHS main list

>> To be honest, I've forgotten many (most) of the details.  But that sounds
>> about right.  As I remember it, it was like SunOS.  The key point was that
>> the kernel only had one view of the memory system period, no FS
>> buffer cache etc...which was a departure from many of the traditional UNIX
>> implementations.    IIRC they did not support BSD's mmap -- but check the

> It sounds like they could have supported mmap() easily.  I'd love to see
> this kernel, it sounds to me like it was SunOS with nicely done SMP
> support.  The guy that said he'd never seen anything like it before or
> since, just makes me want to see it more.

"One view of the memory, period." That describes Multics.

Doug

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 12+ messages in thread

end of thread, other threads:[~2022-11-14 22:48 UTC | newest]

Thread overview: 12+ messages (download: mbox.gz / follow: Atom feed)
-- links below jump to the message on this page --
2022-11-13  0:02 [TUHS] Book: "You Are Not Expected to Understand This" Dave Horsfall
2022-11-13  0:25 ` [TUHS] " Kenneth Goodwin
2022-11-13  1:12   ` Rob Pike
2022-11-13  1:52     ` Larry McVoy
2022-11-13  1:12 ` Stuff Received
2022-11-13 21:58   ` Dave Horsfall
2022-11-14 22:48 ` Dave Horsfall
2022-11-14 14:14 Douglas McIlroy
2022-11-14 15:50 ` Clem Cole
2022-11-14 16:58 Norman Wilson
2022-11-14 19:17 ` Larry McVoy
2022-11-14 19:50   ` Dave Horsfall

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