From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 From: m@mbsks.franken.de (Matthias Bruestle) Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 10:31:26 +0200 (MET DST) Subject: UNIX for PDP-11: moving on to media In-Reply-To: <199709110449.OAA17004@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> from Warren Toomey at "Sep 11, 97 02:49:53 pm" Message-ID: Mahlzeit According to Warren Toomey: > Question 1 > ---------- > > How do I get a Unix distribution onto: > > - a tape, because I have a tape drive > > - a disk drive, as I don't have a tape drive > > assuming I [ have RT-11/ RSX / no operating system ] on the PDP-11 already. For my 11/34A with 2 RL01 I made with an emulator a bootable V7-RL01-diskimage. I downloaded it under RT-11 with KSERVE from John Wilson (dunno where I ftped it) over a serial line onto the second disk. It took some hours, but it worked. Mahlzeit endergone Zwiebeltuete -- insanity inside Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id DAA06433 for pups-liszt; Sun, 14 Sep 1997 03:26:28 +1000 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f Received: from europe.std.com (europe.std.com [199.172.62.20]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id DAA06427 for ; Sun, 14 Sep 1997 03:26:22 +1000 (EST) Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.7.6/BZS-8-1.0) id NAA24841; Sat, 13 Sep 1997 13:26:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA14996; Sat, 13 Sep 1997 13:26:17 -0400 Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 13:26:17 -0400 From: allisonp@world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Message-Id: <199709131726.AA14996 at world.std.com> To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: UNIX for PDP-11: moving on to media Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk ; Sun, 14 Sep 1997 05:02:26 +1000 (EST) Received: from Minsk.DoCS.UU.SE (bqt at Minsk.DoCS.UU.SE [130.238.9.30]) by Veda.DoCS.UU.SE (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id VAA29097; Sat, 13 Sep 1997 21:01:58 +0200 Received: by Minsk.DoCS.UU.SE (Sun-4/630, SunOS 4.1.2) with sendmail 5.61-bind 1.5+ida/ICU/DoCS id AA00514; Sat, 13 Sep 97 21:01:57 +0200 From: Johnny Billquist Date: Sat, 13 Sep 97 21:01:55 +0300 (MET DST) Reply-To: bqt at minsk.docs.uu.se To: wkt at cs.adfa.oz.au Cc: pnt103 at ugrad.cs.york.ac.uk, pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation) Subject: Re: Old PDP-11 UNIX Paper Docs? In-Reply-To: Your message of Fri, 12 Sep 1997 09:13:31 +1000 (EST) Message-Id: Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk >In article by pnt103 at ugrad.cs.york.ac.uk: >> Warren wrote: >> > I've got some AUUG newsletters ... One of them mentions >> > a `Heriot-Watt stripped down 7th Edition', >> >> If this is the version I have, which not only came from HWU, but is >> running on one of their old machines, it's fairly standard. It was >> build for a 'small machine', meaning one without separate I&D space, >> such as an 11/34 (mine's on an 11/23 with 128KW and RL02s). There >> are some extra drivers to support RX02s and stuff, but I think these >> are just well-known additions from sources such as Boston. There's a >> makefile to configure and build for a small machine. >> >> It's missing some of the larger pieces of software, such as troff (nroff >> is there, and the troff source AFAIR) and Fortran, and the tty driver is >> modified (bigger!), but most other things seem to be 'normal'. >> >> I have the source on 800bpi magtape (pity my drive is only 1600bpi) and >> also most of it on RL02, though the RL02s are a bit disorganised. >> >> Pete > >Anybody in the UK able to read Pete's tape? Pete, can you kermit the files >off those RL02s? If the need is large enough, I can roll out a TU77 and connect it to Magica to read the stuff. That means Sweden, though... Johnny Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus CS student at Uppsala University || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at minsk.docs.uu.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id FAA06768 for pups-liszt; Sun, 14 Sep 1997 05:10:34 +1000 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f Received: from Veda.DoCS.UU.SE (root at Veda.DoCS.UU.SE [130.238.11.24]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id FAA06761 for ; Sun, 14 Sep 1997 05:10:20 +1000 (EST) Received: from Minsk.DoCS.UU.SE (bqt at Minsk.DoCS.UU.SE [130.238.9.30]) by Veda.DoCS.UU.SE (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id VAA29118; Sat, 13 Sep 1997 21:09:44 +0200 Received: by Minsk.DoCS.UU.SE (Sun-4/630, SunOS 4.1.2) with sendmail 5.61-bind 1.5+ida/ICU/DoCS id AA00629; Sat, 13 Sep 97 21:09:44 +0200 From: Johnny Billquist Date: Sat, 13 Sep 97 21:09:43 +0300 (MET DST) Reply-To: bqt at minsk.docs.uu.se To: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Cc: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: Bootstrap Idea In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 11 Sep 1997 22:43:28 -0400 Message-Id: Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk >Not true. They all did as bad blocks have been a fact of life for all >computers since day one. Some of the ealy unixes used crude methods >from a perfomance standoint but, the bad block replacement was there. Well, not day one, but that come pretty early. Quality of the magnetic media wasn't really that good back then, so you usually *had* to expect a few bad spots on any disk. On PDP-11's, I would supect that Unix went with DEC's BAD144 standard pretty fast. (When did that standard come, btw?) >Do read LIONS commentary. I was able to get a copy from the local library >here in eastern MA (USA) along with several books on BSD design. Unix was >really ahead of the pack on many things. Not to be a pain in the ass or so, but in what ways was Unix ahead of anything? Unix was just a small hack inspired by Multics, and looking at contemporary operating systems, I'd say there were some that were way ahead of Unix (and still are...) Operating systems in the last twenty years have really retro-developed. :-) Johnny Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus CS student at Uppsala University || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at minsk.docs.uu.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id FAA06799 for pups-liszt; Sun, 14 Sep 1997 05:23:01 +1000 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f Received: from Veda.DoCS.UU.SE (Veda.DoCS.UU.SE [130.238.11.24]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id FAA06794 for ; Sun, 14 Sep 1997 05:22:56 +1000 (EST) Received: from Minsk.DoCS.UU.SE (bqt at Minsk.DoCS.UU.SE [130.238.9.30]) by Veda.DoCS.UU.SE (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id VAA29143; Sat, 13 Sep 1997 21:22:21 +0200 Received: by Minsk.DoCS.UU.SE (Sun-4/630, SunOS 4.1.2) with sendmail 5.61-bind 1.5+ida/ICU/DoCS id AA01024; Sat, 13 Sep 97 21:22:21 +0200 From: Johnny Billquist Date: Sat, 13 Sep 97 21:22:21 +0300 (MET DST) Reply-To: bqt at minsk.docs.uu.se To: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Cc: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: UNIX for PDP-11: moving on to media In-Reply-To: Your message of Sat, 13 Sep 1997 13:26:17 -0400 Message-Id: Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk > >How did you write it to the RL01 and what would it take to write it to rl02 >assuming rt/kserve. Did you use guarenteed no bad block media? Most RL02 are pretty good. Usually they don't have any bad spots in my experience. Johnny Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus CS student at Uppsala University || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at minsk.docs.uu.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id HAA07202 for pups-liszt; Sun, 14 Sep 1997 07:58:41 +1000 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f Received: from europe.std.com (europe.std.com [199.172.62.20]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA07195 for ; Sun, 14 Sep 1997 07:58:35 +1000 (EST) Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.7.6/BZS-8-1.0) id RAA22376; Sat, 13 Sep 1997 17:58:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA29962; Sat, 13 Sep 1997 17:58:31 -0400 Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 17:58:31 -0400 From: allisonp@world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Message-Id: <199709132158.AA29962 at world.std.com> To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: Bootstrap Idea Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk , RT-11, RSTS, RSX-11, VMS, Ultrix. So those are what I have to look at when thinking in terms of 1970s OSs like Unix of the time. ; Sun, 14 Sep 1997 07:58:42 +1000 (EST) Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.7.6/BZS-8-1.0) id RAA22394; Sat, 13 Sep 1997 17:58:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA00131; Sat, 13 Sep 1997 17:58:38 -0400 Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 17:58:38 -0400 From: allisonp@world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Message-Id: <199709132158.AA00131 at world.std.com> To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: UNIX for PDP-11: moving on to media Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk but there was remaping so platters with bad blocks were invisible to the system mangler/user. I just tossed a pack that had developed more bad blocks then could be managed. Allison Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA07502 for pups-liszt; Sun, 14 Sep 1997 09:50:10 +1000 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f Received: from Veda.DoCS.UU.SE (root at Veda.DoCS.UU.SE [130.238.11.24]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id JAA07497 for ; Sun, 14 Sep 1997 09:50:04 +1000 (EST) Received: from Minsk.DoCS.UU.SE (bqt at Minsk.DoCS.UU.SE [130.238.9.30]) by Veda.DoCS.UU.SE (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id BAA29785; Sun, 14 Sep 1997 01:49:55 +0200 Received: by Minsk.DoCS.UU.SE (Sun-4/630, SunOS 4.1.2) with sendmail 5.61-bind 1.5+ida/ICU/DoCS id AA05222; Sun, 14 Sep 97 01:49:55 +0200 From: Johnny Billquist Date: Sun, 14 Sep 97 1:49:54 +0300 (MET DST) Reply-To: bqt at minsk.docs.uu.se To: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Cc: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: UNIX for PDP-11: moving on to media In-Reply-To: Your message of Sat, 13 Sep 1997 17:58:38 -0400 Message-Id: Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk > > >They were low in defects but there was remaping so platters >with bad blocks were invisible to the system mangler/user. I just tossed a >pack that had developed more bad blocks then could be managed. No exacly invisible... The operating system had to be aware of the bad spots, and invent some scheme or other to hide the spots from the user. OS/8's solution is rather hairy. I know, since I didn't have a "formatter" program, so I needed to write one, given the source of the device driver... Bad spots on MSCP disks on the other hand are totally invisible. Johnny Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus CS student at Uppsala University || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at minsk.docs.uu.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA07523 for pups-liszt; Sun, 14 Sep 1997 09:56:09 +1000 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f Received: from Veda.DoCS.UU.SE (root at Veda.DoCS.UU.SE [130.238.11.24]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id JAA07518 for ; Sun, 14 Sep 1997 09:56:04 +1000 (EST) Received: from Minsk.DoCS.UU.SE (bqt at Minsk.DoCS.UU.SE [130.238.9.30]) by Veda.DoCS.UU.SE (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id BAA29800; Sun, 14 Sep 1997 01:55:57 +0200 Received: by Minsk.DoCS.UU.SE (Sun-4/630, SunOS 4.1.2) with sendmail 5.61-bind 1.5+ida/ICU/DoCS id AA05322; Sun, 14 Sep 97 01:55:57 +0200 From: Johnny Billquist Date: Sun, 14 Sep 97 1:55:55 +0300 (MET DST) Reply-To: bqt at minsk.docs.uu.se To: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Cc: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: Bootstrap Idea In-Reply-To: Your message of Sat, 13 Sep 1997 17:58:31 -0400 Message-Id: Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk > >yes, but as hacks go it was more public in code than other OSs of value in >that time frame. I'm not saying was the best. Also I've never used >multics. My experience in chronological order is OS/8, TOPS-10, CP/M-80, >NS*dos, RT-11, RSTS, RSX-11, VMS, Ultrix. So those are what I have to >look at when thinking in terms of 1970s OSs like Unix of the time. Oh, certainly, the source was available. I would say that that, along with the fact that you got it for free, were the only two reasons for its rise to fame. If you compare Unix with the systems you mention above, most of the DEC stuff have had some stuff since the '70s that Unix only got in the 90s... (Shared libraries and microkernels for instance.) > >If you mean what I think the answer is not here. If anything my view is >more of when will dos/winders perform as well as some of those OSs of the >time. Then again, I had VMS4.6 running decwindows and four users on a >microvaxII with 9meg and 3 RD53s in 1989. What I meant was that development have gone backwards with regards to operating systems in the last twenty years. :-) Who knows how many things Microsoft has reinvented in the last few years, and Unix hasn't been much better either... (Okay, so this is the list for Unixes on the PDP-11, so I'll defend that particualr Unix. It's still clean and mean, which was the purpose of the design, and not the overbloated monster called Unix nowadays...) Johnny Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus CS student at Uppsala University || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at minsk.docs.uu.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA07772 for pups-liszt; Sun, 14 Sep 1997 11:51:49 +1000 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f Received: from atlas.cs.york.ac.uk (atlas.cs.york.ac.uk [144.32.32.16]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id LAA07767 for ; Sun, 14 Sep 1997 11:51:44 +1000 (EST) From: pnt103@ugrad.cs.york.ac.uk Date: Sun, 14 Sep 97 02:51:15 Message-ID: To: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: Old PDP-11 UNIX Paper Docs? Cc: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk Re Heriot-Watt stripped-down 7th Edition... Warren wrote: > Anybody in the UK able to read Pete's tape? Pete, can you kermit the files > off those RL02s? I did once attempt to read the tape on our department's Kenedy drive (now disposed of) and managed to get all but a few blocks near the beginning. It seems to be a pretty standard distribution tape, with a layout as described in the Unix Programmer's Manual Vol.2 (Jan.1979). I have a 1600bpi copy (modulo the bad blocks) somewhere (I wonder where I put it?). I wouldn't bother about making another copy; if anyone deparately wants to try, I guess I might loan the original. But AFAIK there's only a couple of Makefiles that differ, and I have those on the RL02s. I don't have any version of kermit that will run under 7th Edition on an 11/23 (the normal versions are too big), but text files are perfectly easy to copy. Pete Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA07850 for pups-liszt; Sun, 14 Sep 1997 12:24:44 +1000 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f Received: from europe.std.com (europe.std.com [199.172.62.20]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA07845 for ; Sun, 14 Sep 1997 12:24:39 +1000 (EST) Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.7.6/BZS-8-1.0) id WAA17297; Sat, 13 Sep 1997 22:24:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA03277; Sat, 13 Sep 1997 22:24:31 -0400 Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 22:24:31 -0400 From: allisonp@world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Message-Id: <199709140224.AA03277 at world.std.com> To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: Bootstrap Idea Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk ; Sun, 14 Sep 1997 15:00:14 +1000 (EST) Received: from hub-n.franken.de(really [193.175.24.104]) by chico.franken.de via sendmail with esmtp id for ; Sun, 14 Sep 1997 07:00:09 +0200 (MET DST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #2 built DST-Sep-8) Received: from mbsks by hub-n.franken.de with uucp (Smail3.2.0.92 #12) id m0xA6my-000cxIC; Sun, 14 Sep 1997 07:00:04 +0200 (MET DST) Received: by mbsks.franken.de (Linux Smail3.1.28.1 #14) id m0xA47G-000HpoC; Sun, 14 Sep 97 04:08 MET DST Message-Id: From: m@mbsks.franken.de (Matthias Bruestle) Subject: Re: UNIX for PDP-11: moving on to media In-Reply-To: <199709131726.AA14996 at world.std.com> from Allison J Parent at "Sep 13, 97 01:26:17 pm" To: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 04:08:50 +0200 (MET DST) Cc: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (pubs) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL31 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk Mahlzeit According to Allison J Parent: > How did you write it to the RL01 and what would it take to write it to rl02 > assuming rt/kserve. Did you use guarenteed no bad block media? I ran kserve on RT-11 and kermit on my PC (and a 4-wire seriell line in between). kserve (unlike the other kermits for RT-11) can write directly with a put to a disk. The RL01 disk pack I used had no bad blocks. This should the same way work with RL02 disks. In some blocks on the disk pack should be written, if it has bad blocks. But I don't know which. I didn't try it with media with bad blocks, because I had only this disk pack free. (On the other is the RT-11 and my third has a red shock watch.) Mahlzeit endergone Zwiebeltuete -- insanity inside Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA10961 for pups-liszt; Mon, 15 Sep 1997 09:21:15 +1000 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f Received: from psychvax.psych.usyd.edu.au (psychvax.psych.usyd.edu.au [129.78.83.1]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id JAA10956 for ; Mon, 15 Sep 1997 09:21:11 +1000 (EST) Received: by psychvax.psych.usyd.edu.au (8.6.8/Ultrix4.3-C) id JAA10208; Mon, 15 Sep 1997 09:21:07 +1000 Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 09:21:07 +1000 From: johnh@psychvax.psych.usyd.edu.au (John Holden) Message-Id: <199709142321.JAA10208 at psychvax.psych.usyd.edu.au> To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: Bootstrap Idea Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk There are a few good tricks to get PDP11 with odd configurations to load. The first is the venerable paper tape bootstrap. It consists of only 8 instructions (28 bytes) and works on serial ports. It then loads the 'absolute loader' which will load formatted data (paper tape!). The format is trival and has checksums and stop/transfer blocks. The trick is to convert the unix secordary boot loader from V7 or BSD 2.9-2.11 and then you have mini loader with lots of device drivers. I can provide some of these programs including the paper tape listings and images (heck, I still have a working paper tape reader/punch). You can load ANY PDP-11 this way! Another approach if you have any of the LSI-11 based cpus with microcoded console emulator is to use the Xinu suite. It does an initial bootstrap by sending console commands and then loading a binary boostrap. On the subject of bad blocks, V6 and V7 offered no bad block strategies. The DEC spec for RK05's was 200 tracks by 12 sectors by 2 surface plus 3 bad block tracks for 4800 blocks plus 72 spare. The media was generally pretty good, and all Unix versions used 4872 block filesystems. Files-11 (IAS/RSX) was the only system to offer bad block replacement (I cannot be sure for RSTS). When bigger disk drives started showing up, like the RM02/3's and RM05, the usual practive was to buy packs with 'zero' defects. Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA11254 for pups-liszt; Mon, 15 Sep 1997 11:20:27 +1000 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f Received: from europe.std.com (europe.std.com [199.172.62.20]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA11247 for ; Mon, 15 Sep 1997 11:20:21 +1000 (EST) Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.7.6/BZS-8-1.0) id VAA09454; Sun, 14 Sep 1997 21:20:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA07683; Sun, 14 Sep 1997 21:20:16 -0400 Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 21:20:16 -0400 From: allisonp@world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Message-Id: <199709150120.AA07683 at world.std.com> To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: Bootstrap Idea Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk ; Mon, 15 Sep 1997 11:20:28 +1000 (EST) Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.7.6/BZS-8-1.0) id VAA09471; Sun, 14 Sep 1997 21:20:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA07732; Sun, 14 Sep 1997 21:20:24 -0400 Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 21:20:24 -0400 From: allisonp@world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Message-Id: <199709150120.AA07732 at world.std.com> To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: Bootstrap Idea Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk