* UNIX for PDP-11: moving on to media
[not found] <199709110449.OAA17004@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
@ 1997-09-11 8:31 ` Matthias Bruestle
0 siblings, 0 replies; only message in thread
From: Matthias Bruestle @ 1997-09-11 8:31 UTC (permalink / raw)
Mahlzeit
According to Warren Toomey:
> Question 1
> ----------
>
> How do I get a Unix distribution onto:
>
> - a tape, because I have a tape drive
>
> - a disk drive, as I don't have a tape drive
>
> assuming I [ have RT-11/ RSX / no operating system ] on the PDP-11 already.
For my 11/34A with 2 RL01 I made with an emulator a bootable V7-RL01-diskimage.
I downloaded it under RT-11 with KSERVE from John Wilson (dunno where I
ftped it) over a serial line onto the second disk. It took some hours,
but it worked.
Mahlzeit
endergone Zwiebeltuete
--
insanity inside
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From: allisonp@world.std.com (Allison J Parent)
Message-Id: <199709131726.AA14996 at world.std.com>
To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: UNIX for PDP-11: moving on to media
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<For my 11/34A with 2 RL01 I made with an emulator a bootable V7-RL01-diskim
<I downloaded it under RT-11 with KSERVE from John Wilson (dunno where I
<ftped it) over a serial line onto the second disk. It took some hours,
<but it worked.
How did you write it to the RL01 and what would it take to write it to rl02
assuming rt/kserve. Did you use guarenteed no bad block media?
Allison
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From: Johnny Billquist <bqt@minsk.docs.uu.se>
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 97 21:01:55 +0300 (MET DST)
Reply-To: bqt at minsk.docs.uu.se
To: wkt at cs.adfa.oz.au
Cc: pnt103 at ugrad.cs.york.ac.uk,
pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation)
Subject: Re: Old PDP-11 UNIX Paper Docs?
In-Reply-To: Your message of Fri, 12 Sep 1997 09:13:31 +1000 (EST)
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>In article by pnt103 at ugrad.cs.york.ac.uk:
>> Warren wrote:
>> > I've got some AUUG newsletters ... One of them mentions
>> > a `Heriot-Watt stripped down 7th Edition',
>>
>> If this is the version I have, which not only came from HWU, but is
>> running on one of their old machines, it's fairly standard. It was
>> build for a 'small machine', meaning one without separate I&D space,
>> such as an 11/34 (mine's on an 11/23 with 128KW and RL02s). There
>> are some extra drivers to support RX02s and stuff, but I think these
>> are just well-known additions from sources such as Boston. There's a
>> makefile to configure and build for a small machine.
>>
>> It's missing some of the larger pieces of software, such as troff (nroff
>> is there, and the troff source AFAIR) and Fortran, and the tty driver is
>> modified (bigger!), but most other things seem to be 'normal'.
>>
>> I have the source on 800bpi magtape (pity my drive is only 1600bpi) and
>> also most of it on RL02, though the RL02s are a bit disorganised.
>>
>> Pete
>
>Anybody in the UK able to read Pete's tape? Pete, can you kermit the files
>off those RL02s?
If the need is large enough, I can roll out a TU77 and connect it to Magica
to read the stuff. That means Sweden, though...
Johnny
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
CS student at Uppsala University || on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt at minsk.docs.uu.se || Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
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From: Johnny Billquist <bqt@minsk.docs.uu.se>
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 97 21:09:43 +0300 (MET DST)
Reply-To: bqt at minsk.docs.uu.se
To: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent)
Cc: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: Bootstrap Idea
In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 11 Sep 1997 22:43:28 -0400
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>Not true. They all did as bad blocks have been a fact of life for all
>computers since day one. Some of the ealy unixes used crude methods
>from a perfomance standoint but, the bad block replacement was there.
Well, not day one, but that come pretty early. Quality of the magnetic
media wasn't really that good back then, so you usually *had* to
expect a few bad spots on any disk.
On PDP-11's, I would supect that Unix went with DEC's BAD144 standard
pretty fast. (When did that standard come, btw?)
>Do read LIONS commentary. I was able to get a copy from the local library
>here in eastern MA (USA) along with several books on BSD design. Unix was
>really ahead of the pack on many things.
Not to be a pain in the ass or so, but in what ways was Unix ahead of
anything?
Unix was just a small hack inspired by Multics, and looking at contemporary
operating systems, I'd say there were some that were way ahead of Unix (and
still are...)
Operating systems in the last twenty years have really retro-developed. :-)
Johnny
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
CS student at Uppsala University || on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt at minsk.docs.uu.se || Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
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From: Johnny Billquist <bqt@minsk.docs.uu.se>
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 97 21:22:21 +0300 (MET DST)
Reply-To: bqt at minsk.docs.uu.se
To: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent)
Cc: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: UNIX for PDP-11: moving on to media
In-Reply-To: Your message of Sat, 13 Sep 1997 13:26:17 -0400
Message-Id: <CMM.0.90.0.874178541.bqt at Minsk.DoCS.UU.SE>
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><For my 11/34A with 2 RL01 I made with an emulator a bootable V7-RL01-diskim
><I downloaded it under RT-11 with KSERVE from John Wilson (dunno where I
><ftped it) over a serial line onto the second disk. It took some hours,
><but it worked.
>
>How did you write it to the RL01 and what would it take to write it to rl02
>assuming rt/kserve. Did you use guarenteed no bad block media?
Most RL02 are pretty good. Usually they don't have any bad spots in my
experience.
Johnny
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
CS student at Uppsala University || on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt at minsk.docs.uu.se || Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
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From: allisonp@world.std.com (Allison J Parent)
Message-Id: <199709132158.AA29962 at world.std.com>
To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: Bootstrap Idea
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<Unix was just a small hack inspired by Multics, and looking at contemporar
<operating systems, I'd say there were some that were way ahead of Unix (an
<still are...)
yes, but as hacks go it was more public in code than other OSs of value in
that time frame. I'm not saying was the best. Also I've never used
multics. My experience in chronological order is OS/8, TOPS-10, CP/M-80,
NS*dos<z80>, RT-11, RSTS, RSX-11, VMS, Ultrix. So those are what I have to
look at when thinking in terms of 1970s OSs like Unix of the time.
<Operating systems in the last twenty years have really retro-developed. :-
If you mean what I think the answer is not here. If anything my view is
more of when will dos/winders perform as well as some of those OSs of the
time. Then again, I had VMS4.6 running decwindows and four users on a
microvaxII with 9meg and 3 RD53s in 1989.
Allison
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From: allisonp@world.std.com (Allison J Parent)
Message-Id: <199709132158.AA00131 at world.std.com>
To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: UNIX for PDP-11: moving on to media
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<Most RL02 are pretty good. Usually they don't have any bad spots in my
<experience.
They were low in defects<frequently none> but there was remaping so platters
with bad blocks were invisible to the system mangler/user. I just tossed a
pack that had developed more bad blocks then could be managed.
Allison
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From: Johnny Billquist <bqt@minsk.docs.uu.se>
Date: Sun, 14 Sep 97 1:49:54 +0300 (MET DST)
Reply-To: bqt at minsk.docs.uu.se
To: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent)
Cc: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: UNIX for PDP-11: moving on to media
In-Reply-To: Your message of Sat, 13 Sep 1997 17:58:38 -0400
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>
><Most RL02 are pretty good. Usually they don't have any bad spots in my
><experience.
>
>They were low in defects<frequently none> but there was remaping so platters
>with bad blocks were invisible to the system mangler/user. I just tossed a
>pack that had developed more bad blocks then could be managed.
No exacly invisible... The operating system had to be aware of the bad spots,
and invent some scheme or other to hide the spots from the user.
OS/8's solution is rather hairy. I know, since I didn't have a "formatter"
program, so I needed to write one, given the source of the device driver...
Bad spots on MSCP disks on the other hand are totally invisible.
Johnny
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
CS student at Uppsala University || on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt at minsk.docs.uu.se || Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
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From: Johnny Billquist <bqt@minsk.docs.uu.se>
Date: Sun, 14 Sep 97 1:55:55 +0300 (MET DST)
Reply-To: bqt at minsk.docs.uu.se
To: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent)
Cc: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: Bootstrap Idea
In-Reply-To: Your message of Sat, 13 Sep 1997 17:58:31 -0400
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><Unix was just a small hack inspired by Multics, and looking at contemporar
><operating systems, I'd say there were some that were way ahead of Unix (an
><still are...)
>
>yes, but as hacks go it was more public in code than other OSs of value in
>that time frame. I'm not saying was the best. Also I've never used
>multics. My experience in chronological order is OS/8, TOPS-10, CP/M-80,
>NS*dos<z80>, RT-11, RSTS, RSX-11, VMS, Ultrix. So those are what I have to
>look at when thinking in terms of 1970s OSs like Unix of the time.
Oh, certainly, the source was available. I would say that that, along
with the fact that you got it for free, were the only two reasons for
its rise to fame.
If you compare Unix with the systems you mention above, most of the
DEC stuff have had some stuff since the '70s that Unix only got in the
90s... (Shared libraries and microkernels for instance.)
><Operating systems in the last twenty years have really retro-developed. :-
>
>If you mean what I think the answer is not here. If anything my view is
>more of when will dos/winders perform as well as some of those OSs of the
>time. Then again, I had VMS4.6 running decwindows and four users on a
>microvaxII with 9meg and 3 RD53s in 1989.
What I meant was that development have gone backwards with regards to
operating systems in the last twenty years. :-)
Who knows how many things Microsoft has reinvented in the last few
years, and Unix hasn't been much better either...
(Okay, so this is the list for Unixes on the PDP-11, so I'll defend
that particualr Unix. It's still clean and mean, which was the purpose
of the design, and not the overbloated monster called Unix
nowadays...)
Johnny
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
CS student at Uppsala University || on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt at minsk.docs.uu.se || Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
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From: pnt103@ugrad.cs.york.ac.uk
Date: Sun, 14 Sep 97 02:51:15
Message-ID: <swordfish.874201885 at ugrad.cs.york.ac.uk>
To: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: Old PDP-11 UNIX Paper Docs?
Cc: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
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Re Heriot-Watt stripped-down 7th Edition...
Warren wrote:
> Anybody in the UK able to read Pete's tape? Pete, can you kermit the files
> off those RL02s?
I did once attempt to read the tape on our department's Kenedy drive
(now disposed of) and managed to get all but a few blocks near the
beginning. It seems to be a pretty standard distribution tape, with a
layout as described in the Unix Programmer's Manual Vol.2 (Jan.1979).
I have a 1600bpi copy (modulo the bad blocks) somewhere (I wonder where
I put it?). I wouldn't bother about making another copy; if anyone
deparately wants to try, I guess I might loan the original. But AFAIK
there's only a couple of Makefiles that differ, and I have those on the
RL02s.
I don't have any version of kermit that will run under 7th Edition on
an 11/23 (the normal versions are too big), but text files are perfectly
easy to copy.
Pete
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Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 22:24:31 -0400
From: allisonp@world.std.com (Allison J Parent)
Message-Id: <199709140224.AA03277 at world.std.com>
To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: Bootstrap Idea
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<From: Johnny Billquist <bqt at Minsk.DoCS.UU.SE>
<Oh, certainly, the source was available. I would say that that, along
<with the fact that you got it for free, were the only two reasons for
<its rise to fame.
Th paraphrase Lions, It's one we can look at the dirty parts of and the good
ones too. Yes it has warts and we can see them for what they are,
engineering compromizes of the time.
<If you compare Unix with the systems you mention above, most of the
<DEC stuff have had some stuff since the '70s that Unix only got in the
<90s... (Shared libraries and microkernels for instance.)
It begs the question of what is required and what si nice to have?
<What I meant was that development have gone backwards with regards to
<operating systems in the last twenty years. :-)
Yes. Very unfortunate too. Good design is far more rare.
<(Okay, so this is the list for Unixes on the PDP-11, so I'll defend
<that particualr Unix. It's still clean and mean, which was the purpose
<of the design, and not the overbloated monster called Unix
<nowadays...)
Somehow I find that to be the central point. I apply the same rule to CP/M
for z80s.
Fully thing there is a groups doing an embedded linux kernal (ELKS) and
they act like doing it on a 16bit machine is majik and something like a
z80 means far to stripped to be of use. Seems they missed the point.
Allison
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From: m@mbsks.franken.de (Matthias Bruestle)
Subject: Re: UNIX for PDP-11: moving on to media
In-Reply-To: <199709131726.AA14996 at world.std.com> from Allison J Parent at "Sep 13, 97 01:26:17 pm"
To: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent)
Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 04:08:50 +0200 (MET DST)
Cc: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (pubs)
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Mahlzeit
According to Allison J Parent:
> <For my 11/34A with 2 RL01 I made with an emulator a bootable V7-RL01-diskim
> <I downloaded it under RT-11 with KSERVE from John Wilson (dunno where I
> <ftped it) over a serial line onto the second disk. It took some hours,
> <but it worked.
> How did you write it to the RL01 and what would it take to write it to rl02
> assuming rt/kserve. Did you use guarenteed no bad block media?
I ran kserve on RT-11 and kermit on my PC (and a 4-wire seriell line
in between). kserve (unlike the other kermits for RT-11) can write directly
with a put to a disk. The RL01 disk pack I used had no bad blocks. This
should the same way work with RL02 disks. In some blocks on the disk pack
should be written, if it has bad blocks. But I don't know which. I didn't
try it with media with bad blocks, because I had only this disk pack free.
(On the other is the RT-11 and my third has a red shock watch.)
Mahlzeit
endergone Zwiebeltuete
--
insanity inside
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From: johnh@psychvax.psych.usyd.edu.au (John Holden)
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To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: Bootstrap Idea
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There are a few good tricks to get PDP11 with odd configurations to load. The
first is the venerable paper tape bootstrap. It consists of only 8 instructions
(28 bytes) and works on serial ports. It then loads the 'absolute loader'
which will load formatted data (paper tape!). The format is trival
and has checksums and stop/transfer blocks. The trick is to convert the
unix secordary boot loader from V7 or BSD 2.9-2.11 and then you have
mini loader with lots of device drivers. I can provide some of these
programs including the paper tape listings and images (heck, I still have
a working paper tape reader/punch). You can load ANY PDP-11 this way!
Another approach if you have any of the LSI-11 based cpus with microcoded
console emulator is to use the Xinu suite. It does an initial bootstrap
by sending console commands and then loading a binary boostrap.
On the subject of bad blocks, V6 and V7 offered no bad block strategies.
The DEC spec for RK05's was 200 tracks by 12 sectors by 2 surface plus 3
bad block tracks for 4800 blocks plus 72 spare. The media was generally pretty
good, and all Unix versions used 4872 block filesystems. Files-11 (IAS/RSX) was
the only system to offer bad block replacement (I cannot be sure for RSTS).
When bigger disk drives started showing up, like the RM02/3's and RM05, the
usual practive was to buy packs with 'zero' defects.
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From: allisonp@world.std.com (Allison J Parent)
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To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: Bootstrap Idea
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<Ok, there is a Wilson emulator: E11 which (apparently) runs on DOS
<boxen.
Have it but, the point is to run it on a hardware -11 afterall, I have one.
<KSERVE is the name, as a previous poster has pointed out (thanx).
Went and got it, now I have to transfer it and asm it.
<If the image is on another machine, then use KERMIT + KSERVE.
<
<If not, I guess COPY /DEVICE FOO.IMG DL2:
Bingo.
Allison
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From: allisonp@world.std.com (Allison J Parent)
Message-Id: <199709150120.AA07732 at world.std.com>
To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: Bootstrap Idea
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<There are a few good tricks to get PDP11 with odd configurations to load. T
Boots for this list were found in the RT11 pocket guide, the longest was
31words. Most about 20.
rx01
rx02
tm11
tju16
rp02/3
rjs03/4
rk11
rf11
dectape(tu60)
dectapeII(tu58)
RL01/2
Rk06
<first is the venerable paper tape bootstrap. It consists of only 8 instruct
<(28 bytes) and works on serial ports. It then loads the 'absolute loader'
The tu58 is also short and can load any program with code in block 0
(default boot block). the tu58 can also simulate a console driving ODT.
The best part if TU58 is serial interface and can be hooked up to any
unix/linux/dos/cpm/Whatever box that has a serial port.
<On the subject of bad blocks, V6 and V7 offered no bad block strategies.
<The DEC spec for RK05's was 200 tracks by 12 sectors by 2 surface plus 3
<bad block tracks for 4800 blocks plus 72 spare. The media was generally pre
<good, and all Unix versions used 4872 block filesystems.
the above describes a strategy.
Well, transparent or system based the blocks are allocated. CP/M does not
do block replacement but utilities can mark bad blocks by allocating them,
or revector them at the hardware level. I believe mkfs does this. Some
disks like the RQDXn do this at the hardware level.
Allison
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