From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 From: m@mbsks.franken.de (Matthias Bruestle) Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1998 10:43:01 +0200 (MET DST) Subject: Receipt of 12 License Details In-Reply-To: <199804070551.PAA01173@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> from Warren Toomey at "Apr 7, 98 03:51:21 pm" Message-ID: Mahlzeit According to Warren Toomey: > I have the list of the first 12 SCO AU license holders in front of > me. Unfortunately, I'm not one of them :-( Anyway, things are humming along. Then you still have the chance to get AU-0. :) > P.S Matthias has the most interesting number, AU-3B 8-) Because of the AT&T Unix computers? Mahlzeit endergone Zwiebeltuete -- insanity inside Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id AAA04410 for pups-liszt; Wed, 8 Apr 1998 00:30:51 +1000 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f Received: from mgate.nwnexus.com (beavis.nwnexus.com [206.63.63.200]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id AAA04405 for ; Wed, 8 Apr 1998 00:30:44 +1000 (EST) Received: from halcyon.com (blv-lx102-ip41.nwnexus.net [206.63.41.41]) by mgate.nwnexus.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id HAA12701; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 07:30:25 -0700 Message-ID: <352A3863.279915CF at halcyon.com> Date: Tue, 07 Apr 1998 07:29:55 -0700 From: "David C. Jenner" Reply-To: djenner at halcyon.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: wkt at cs.adfa.oz.au CC: PDP Unix Preservation Subject: Re: Receipt of 12 License Details References: <199804070551.PAA01173 at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk Hey, maybe you can be AU-0 after all. That's an excellent idea! Dave Warren Toomey wrote: > > All, > I have the list of the first 12 SCO AU license holders in front of > me. Unfortunately, I'm not one of them :-( Anyway, things are humming along. > > Charles, David, Doug, Ed, James, Jennine, John, Jorgen, Ken, Matthias, > Paul P, Paul V, Steven > > Cheers, > Warren > > P.S Matthias has the most interesting number, AU-3B 8-) Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id BAA04494 for pups-liszt; Wed, 8 Apr 1998 01:12:37 +1000 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f Received: from skatter.USask.Ca (skatter.usask.ca [128.233.14.1]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id BAA04489 for ; Wed, 8 Apr 1998 01:12:31 +1000 (EST) Received: from hydrus.USask.Ca (hydrus.usask.ca [128.233.14.27]) by skatter.USask.Ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA21964; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 09:12:17 -0600 (CST) From: Neil Johnson Received: (from neil at localhost) by hydrus.USask.Ca (8.7.2/8.7.2) id JAA18391; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 09:12:14 -0600 (CST) Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1998 09:12:14 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199804071512.JAA18391 at hydrus.USask.Ca> To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au, wkt at cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: Receipt of 12 License Details Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk I'm actually a bit happy to see I'm not on the list. I was a little disappointed that only 12 people had applied given the number of signatures on the petition. Neil Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id IAA05735 for pups-liszt; Wed, 8 Apr 1998 08:06:02 +1000 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA05730 for ; Wed, 8 Apr 1998 08:05:58 +1000 (EST) Received: (from wkt at localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id IAA02178; Wed, 8 Apr 1998 08:07:20 +1000 (EST) From: Warren Toomey Message-Id: <199804072207.IAA02178 at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: Re: Receipt of 12 License Details To: neil at skatter.usask.ca (Neil Johnson) Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1998 08:07:19 +1000 (EST) Cc: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au, wkt at cs.adfa.oz.au In-Reply-To: <199804071512.JAA18391 at hydrus.USask.Ca> from Neil Johnson at "Apr 7, 98 09:12:14 am" Reply-To: wkt at cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk In article by Neil Johnson: > I'm actually a bit happy to see I'm not on the list. I was > a little disappointed that only 12 people had applied given > the number of signatures on the petition. > Neil Afert sleeping on it, and inspecting the bundle of 12 from Dion yesterday, I see the AU-12 license is dated 16th March. Now I know SCO took their license fee from my account on the 24th of March. Therefore I suspect that licensing haven't passed the paperwork on to Dion, for those licenses processed after the 16th March. This probably indicates that there are more licenses still in the works. I should get some mail from Dion today, and I'll pass on anything relevant. Warren Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id IAA05854 for pups-liszt; Wed, 8 Apr 1998 08:32:22 +1000 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA05849 for ; Wed, 8 Apr 1998 08:32:19 +1000 (EST) Received: (from wkt at localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id IAA02379; Wed, 8 Apr 1998 08:33:46 +1000 (EST) From: Warren Toomey Message-Id: <199804072233.IAA02379 at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: Re: More licenses in the works To: dionj at sco.COM (Dion Johnson) Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1998 08:33:46 +1000 (EST) In-Reply-To: <19980407152602.02045 at sco.com> from Dion Johnson at "Apr 7, 98 03:26:02 pm" Reply-To: wkt at cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk In article by Dion Johnson: > I just received 12 more licenses signed by the NJ legal folks. > But yours was not in this batch. > I will get these copied and off to you tomorrow (I think). Thanks Dion, I know you're working hard there. It looks like legal are the bottleneck. Warren Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA06652 for pups-liszt; Wed, 8 Apr 1998 13:26:08 +1000 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f Received: from renoir.op.net (root at renoir.op.net [209.152.193.4]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA06642 for ; Wed, 8 Apr 1998 13:25:57 +1000 (EST) Received: from goppelt.op.net (d-phlarc1-0e.ppp.op.net [209.152.199.78]) by renoir.op.net (o1/$Revision: 1.15 $) with SMTP id XAA26771; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 23:25:40 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199804080325.XAA26771 at renoir.op.net> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Ed G." To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1998 23:25:33 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Mag Tape Bug in Bob's Emulator? Reply-to: edgee at cyberpass.net CC: Warren Toomey In-reply-to: <199804070255.MAA00874 at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> References: <199804070248.WAA14210 at renoir.op.net> from "Ed G." at "Apr 6, 98 10:48:17 pm" X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.54) Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk > Yeah, I haven't used the tape stuff much, mainly because of the muck > around building the pre/postambles per record. I've got perl scripts that do this. I'd be happy to donate them to the archive if you're interested. > An alternate solution is to mount the tape image as a disk, e.g RK1 > > Then tar vxf /dev/rrk1 :-) Yes, this works well for getting info into the emulator. However, I was not able to use this method to get info out of the emulator. In particular when I first got the emulator I wanted to examine all the files on the rl0 disk using the much nicer work environment provided by Linux. Having tar write to rl1 fails around the 1.4 Meg mark (anyone know why?), whereas I was able to dump the entire contents of the rl disk to a simtape with no problem. Here's what happened when I tried to dump the entire rl0 disk: Ed sim> att rl1 junk.dsk RL: creating new file sim> cont # pwd / # tar cvf /dev/rrl1 * tar: p: cannot open file a bin/ac 20 blocks a bin/ar 20 blocks a bin/arcv 8 blocks a bin/at 17 blocks a bin/basename 4 blocks a bin/login.old 18 blocks a bin/cat 8 blocks a bin/cb 11 blocks a bin/cc 13 blocks a bin/checkeq 9 blocks a bin/chgrp 10 blocks a bin/chmod 7 blocks a bin/chown 10 blocks a bin/clri 7 blocks a bin/cmp 9 blocks a bin/col 10 blocks a bin/comm 10 blocks a bin/cp 7 blocks a bin/crypt 10 blocks a bin/cu 14 blocks a bin/date 12 blocks a bin/dcheck 9 blocks a bin/dd 14 blocks a bin/deroff 18 blocks a bin/df 7 blocks a bin/diff 19 blocks a bin/du 8 blocks a bin/dump 17 blocks a bin/dumpdir 16 blocks a bin/echo 1 blocks a bin/ed 22 blocks a bin/egrep 18 blocks a bin/expr 17 blocks a bin/fgrep 11 blocks a bin/file 13 blocks a bin/find 22 blocks a bin/graph 30 blocks a bin/grep 12 blocks a bin/icheck 14 blocks a bin/iostat 22 blocks a bin/join 12 blocks a bin/kill 7 blocks a bin/ld 22 blocks a bin/ln 8 blocks a bin/login 19 blocks a bin/look 10 blocks a bin/ls 20 blocks a bin/mail 26 blocks a bin/mesg 7 blocks a bin/mkdir 8 blocks a bin/mv 13 blocks a bin/ncheck 10 blocks a bin/newgrp 16 blocks a bin/nice 9 blocks a bin/nm 12 blocks a bin/od 12 blocks a bin/ps 19 blocks a bin/passwd 17 blocks a bin/pr 22 blocks a bin/prof 22 blocks a bin/v6sh 11 blocks a bin/pstat 16 blocks a bin/ptx 16 blocks a bin/pwd 7 blocks a bin/quot 19 blocks a bin/random 13 blocks a bin/ranlib 12 blocks a bin/restor 24 blocks a bin/rev 7 blocks a bin/rm 10 blocks a bin/rmdir 8 blocks a bin/sa 23 blocks a bin/size 8 blocks a bin/sleep 6 blocks a bin/sort 19 blocks a bin/sp 5 blocks a bin/spline 18 blocks a bin/split 8 blocks a bin/strip 8 blocks a bin/stty 11 blocks a bin/su 22 blocks a bin/sum 8 blocks a bin/sync 1 blocks a bin/tail 4 blocks a bin/tc 17 blocks a bin/tee 3 blocks a bin/test 6 blocks a bin/time 11 blocks a bin/tk 11 blocks a bin/touch 6 blocks a bin/tr 6 blocks a bin/tsort 16 blocks a bin/tty 6 blocks a bin/uniq 9 blocks a bin/units 19 blocks a bin/vpr 16 blocks a bin/wc 12 blocks a bin/who 13 blocks a bin/write 11 blocks a bin/yes 5 blocks a bin/1 1 blocks a bin/calendar 1 blocks a bin/diff3 1 blocks a bin/false 1 blocks a bin/lookbib 1 blocks a bin/lorder 1 blocks a bin/man 2 blocks a bin/nohup 1 blocks a bin/plot 1 blocks a bin/spell 2 blocks a bin/true 0 blocks a bin/lint 1 blocks a bin/notavail link to bin/lint a bin/pcc link to bin/lint a bin/struct link to bin/lint a bin/adb 54 blocks a bin/awk 89 blocks a bin/bc 26 blocks a bin/cptree 16 blocks a bin/poke6 19 blocks a bin/dc 45 blocks a bin/em 36 blocks a bin/enroll 31 blocks a bin/eqn 56 blocks a bin/m4 27 blocks a bin/make 40 blocks a bin/neqn 51 blocks a bin/nroff 75 blocks a bin/prep 14 blocks a bin/ratfor 27 blocks a bin/roff 17 blocks a bin/sed 26 blocks a bin/sh 34 blocks a bin/tar 35 blocks a bin/tbl 60 blocks a bin/tp 20 blocks a bin/xget 41 blocks a bin/xsend 42 blocks a bin/factor 6 blocks a bin/primes 6 blocks a bin/yacc 48 blocks a bin/lex 57 blocks a bin/tek 21 blocks a bin/t300 20 blocks a bin/t300s 20 blocks a bin/t450 20 blocks a bin/vplot 22 blocks a bin/refer 58 blocks a bin/as 11 blocks a bin/ops 16 blocks a bin/f77 link to bin/lint a bin/vcopy 8 blocks a bin/learn 1 blocks a bin/notmade link to bin/learn a bin/troff link to bin/learn a bin/dfOLD 7 blocks a bin/ls.11 16 blocks a bin/.profile 1 blocks a bin/ps.old 18 blocks a bin/rmail link to bin/mail a bin/m68k link to bin/false a bin/u3b2 link to bin/false a bin/pr.old 16 blocks a boot 19 blocks a dev/makefile 6 blocks tar: dev/console is not a file. Not dumped tar: dev/tty is not a file. Not dumped tar: dev/mem is not a file. Not dumped tar: dev/kmem is not a file. Not dumped tar: dev/null is not a file. Not dumped tar: dev/mt0 is not a file. Not dumped tar: dev/ttya is not a file. Not dumped tar: dev/swap is not a file. Not dumped tar: dev/ttye is not a file. Not dumped tar: dev/nmt0: cannot open file tar: dev/tty2 is not a file. Not dumped tar: dev/tty3 is not a file. Not dumped tar: dev/rmt0: cannot open file tar: dev/tty4 is not a file. Not dumped tar: dev/nrmt0: cannot open file tar: dev/rl0 is not a file. Not dumped tar: dev/rl1 is not a file. Not dumped tar: dev/rrl0 is not a file. Not dumped tar: dev/rrl1 is not a file. Not dumped tar: etc: cannot open file tar: global: cannot open file tar: global.c: cannot open file tar: global.s: cannot open file tar: hello: cannot open file tar: hello.c: cannot open file tar: hello.s: cannot open file tar: lib: cannot open file tar: lost+found: cannot open file tar: mnt: cannot open file tar: mysqrt.c: cannot open file tar: mysqrt.s: cannot open file tar: normps: cannot open file tar: nothing: cannot open file tar: nothing.c: cannot open file tar: nothing.s: cannot open file tar: rkunix: cannot open file tar: rl1unix: cannot open file tar: stand: cannot open file tar: tmp: cannot open file tar: u1: cannot open file tar: unix: cannot open file tar: usr: cannot open file # Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA06651 for pups-liszt; Wed, 8 Apr 1998 13:26:06 +1000 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f Received: from renoir.op.net (root at renoir.op.net [209.152.193.4]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA06641 for ; Wed, 8 Apr 1998 13:25:54 +1000 (EST) Received: from goppelt.op.net (d-phlarc1-0e.ppp.op.net [209.152.199.78]) by renoir.op.net (o1/$Revision: 1.15 $) with SMTP id XAA26777; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 23:25:44 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199804080325.XAA26777 at renoir.op.net> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Ed G." To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1998 23:25:33 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Floating Point-How Important to Unix? Reply-to: edgee at cyberpass.net CC: Greg Lehey In-reply-to: <19980407135313.43010 at freebie.lemis.com> References: <199804070043.UAA07210 at renoir.op.net>; from Ed G. on Mon, Apr 06, 1998 at 08:42:54PM -0400 X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.54) Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk > How did you recognize the instructions words? Just because it's in > the text segment doesn't mean it's instructions. Yes, this occurred to me too. My perl script doesn't do any fancy decoding; it just looks for words beginning with octal 17. After some thought I came to the conclusion that the percentage of data words miscounted as floating pt. ops (FPOs) is negligible. Here's my reasoning--tell me what you think: It seemed to me that the two potential sources of fake FPOs are addresses and data words. Have I left anything out? I don't believe that addresses are a problem because the programs would have to be at least 170000 octal (61441 decimal) bytes long to generate these addresses at compile time. In fact, the largest program in the bin directory is awk at 45,260 bytes. cc is only 6510 bytes (those guys at bell labs really knew how to pack it in!) That leaves data. What percent of the data words do you think begin with 17 octal? Here's my "guestimate": 17 octal is a 6 bit binary number. Assuming the probability of any bit being one is .5, the probability of finding a word whose first six bits are one would be 1/2^6 or 1 in 64 which is 1 in 128 bytes. I examined the run time image of factor. It was 3072 bytes long, of which 222 bytes or less than 10% appeared to be global data. Counting immediate operands, I think it is reasonable to assume a 10-1 code to data ratio. That would mean for factor that 2 of the 132 FPOs would be bogus (111* 1/64 = 2 approx). Most programs are bigger than factor, however. cptree and ops are close to the average size (around 7800 bytes) for an executable in the bin directory. So for the average program you might expect to see 7800*.1*1/128 = 6 bogus FPOs. "there are lies, damn lies and statistics"--Mark Twain (I think) Ed G. List of floating point ops by program: awk 2540 refer 1644 xsend 1326 tbl 1315 graph 1300 xget 1288 adb 1152 eqn 918 enroll 915 neqn 874 nroff 841 make 822 spline 812 yacc 789 sa 714 tar 706 lex 628 tek 618 prof 608 t300s 604 dc 601 vplot 582 iostat 579 t300 576 t450 574 em 530 bc 509 ratfor 474 quot 452 tsort 407 sh 381 expr 380 units 379 ac 365 sort 358 ps 327 restor 323 rmail 321 ed 321 mail 321 ptx 320 egrep 313 ls 310 ps.old 306 m4 304 random 298 su 296 tp 285 ops 282 cu 282 diff 277 pr 275 poke6 275 sed 267 find 267 dump 261 deroff 255 icheck 251 ls.11 249 ld 246 login 240 cptree 230 passwd 227 login.old 218 cc 210 prep 205 at 203 dumpdir 197 join 196 wc 193 tc 192 nm 191 pstat 190 file 187 pr.old 186 crypt 182 date 181 grep 180 ranlib 174 fgrep 172 ncheck 159 checkeq 157 du 155 who 152 as 152 od 151 look 149 roff 149 ar 146 vpr 144 dd 141 tk 141 time 139 rm 138 cb 134 mv 134 comm 133 newgrp 133 dcheck 132 factor 132 rmdir 125 write 125 primes 124 cmp 121 dfOLD 120 df 120 size 117 v6sh 116 vcopy 113 nice 113 col 110 ln 106 sum 105 clri 104 cat 103 tail 103 sleep 101 stty 98 mkdir 98 mesg 96 cp 96 touch 96 strip 96 tty 91 chmod 90 split 90 uniq 89 pwd 86 rev 86 chown 84 chgrp 84 kill 83 arcv 83 yes 79 tr 58 sp 57 test 53 basename 34 tee 24 echo 4 sync 2 finddouble.pl 0 u3b2 0 1 0 f77 0 lint 0 finddouble.pl~ 0 true 0 spell 0 troff 0 notmade 0 nohup 0 diff3 0 learn 0 notavail 0 findfp.pl~ 0 lookbib 0 pcc 0 man 0 plot 0 m68k 0 false 0 findfp.pl 0 struct 0 lorder 0 calendar 0 Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA06682 for pups-liszt; Wed, 8 Apr 1998 13:32:13 +1000 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA06677 for ; Wed, 8 Apr 1998 13:32:09 +1000 (EST) Received: (from wkt at localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id NAA03044; Wed, 8 Apr 1998 13:33:30 +1000 (EST) From: Warren Toomey Message-Id: <199804080333.NAA03044 at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: Getting Files In/Out of PDP-11 Simulators To: edgee at cyberpass.net Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1998 13:33:29 +1000 (EST) Cc: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation) In-Reply-To: <199804080325.XAA26771 at renoir.op.net> from "Ed G." at "Apr 7, 98 11:25:33 pm" Reply-To: wkt at cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk In article by Ed G.: [getting files in/out of PDP-11 simulators] > > An alternate solution is to mount the tape image as a disk, e.g RK1 > > Then tar vxf /dev/rrk1 :-) > > Yes, this works well for getting info into the emulator. > > However, I was not able to use this method to get info out of the > emulator. In particular when I first got the emulator I wanted to > examine all the files on the rl0 disk using the much nicer work > environment provided by Linux. Having tar write to rl1 fails > around the 1.4 Meg mark (anyone know why?), whereas I was able to > dump the entire contents of the rl disk to a simtape with no problem. Some simulators open a truncated file, and then die once it gets to a certain size. A solution here is to cp an existing big file over to the desired disk image. It will, of course, be overwritten as you tar out to the disk image. Specific problems are touched on below: > Here's what happened when I tried to dump the entire rl0 disk: > tar: dev/console is not a file. Not dumped V7 tar cannot dump device files. > tar: etc: cannot open file Probably your disk image has been corrupted. Use /etc/fsck if it exists, otherwise icheck, ncheck and dcheck. For instance, the Supnik RL02 image has got a small, recoverable problem. The Supnik V7 RK05 image seems to be completely stuffed, and fsck gives up on it. I do have new images for these, and I should pass them on to Bob. Warren Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA06782 for pups-liszt; Wed, 8 Apr 1998 14:04:15 +1000 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA06777 for ; Wed, 8 Apr 1998 14:04:07 +1000 (EST) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA13667; Wed, 8 Apr 1998 13:33:58 +0930 (CST) Received: (from grog at localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) id NAA12367; Wed, 8 Apr 1998 13:33:58 +0930 (CST) (envelope-from grog) Message-ID: <19980408133357.40721 at freebie.lemis.com> Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1998 13:33:57 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: edgee at cyberpass.net, pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: Floating Point-How Important to Unix? References: <199804070043.UAA07210 at renoir.op.net>; <19980407135313.43010 at freebie.lemis.com> <199804080325.XAA26777 at renoir.op.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89i In-Reply-To: <199804080325.XAA26777 at renoir.op.net>; from Ed G. on Tue, Apr 07, 1998 at 11:25:33PM -0400 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk On Tue, 7 April 1998 at 23:25:33 -0400, Ed G. wrote: >> How did you recognize the instructions words? Just because it's in >> the text segment doesn't mean it's instructions. > > Yes, this occurred to me too. My perl script doesn't do any fancy > decoding; it just looks for words beginning with octal 17. After > some thought I came to the conclusion that the percentage of data > words miscounted as floating pt. ops (FPOs) is negligible. > > Here's my reasoning--tell me what you think: > > (reasoning omitted) You don't say whether you restricted your search to the text segment. Anyway, at this point, I would have modified the script somewhat to display the locations of the words, and then would have looked at the text with adb to see what purpose they serve. Considering that floating point was an option, I find it hard to believe that so many programs, in particular things like tar, would use FP. Greg Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA06821 for pups-liszt; Wed, 8 Apr 1998 14:11:10 +1000 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA06815 for ; Wed, 8 Apr 1998 14:11:04 +1000 (EST) Received: (from wkt at localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA03122; Wed, 8 Apr 1998 14:12:29 +1000 (EST) From: Warren Toomey Message-Id: <199804080412.OAA03122 at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: Re: Floating Point-How Important to Unix? To: grog at lemis.com (Greg Lehey) Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1998 14:12:29 +1000 (EST) Cc: edgee at cyberpass.net, pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au In-Reply-To: <19980408133357.40721 at freebie.lemis.com> from Greg Lehey at "Apr 8, 98 01:33:57 pm" Reply-To: wkt at cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk In article by Greg Lehey: > Considering that > floating point was an option, I find it hard to believe that so many > programs, in particular things like tar, would use FP. I know zip all about PDP-11 FP, but I know that when I was getting my Apout V7 simulator working (which doesn't do FP, by the way), I had to at least emulate setd, because crt0 in V7 starts with: start: setd mov 2(sp),r0 clr -2(r0) Warren Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA06837 for pups-liszt; Wed, 8 Apr 1998 14:11:29 +1000 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f Received: from psychvax.psych.usyd.edu.au (psychvax.psych.usyd.edu.au [129.78.83.1]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA06832 for ; Wed, 8 Apr 1998 14:11:25 +1000 (EST) Received: (from johnh at localhost) by psychvax.psych.usyd.edu.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA06388 for pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Wed, 8 Apr 1998 14:11:22 +1000 Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1998 14:11:22 +1000 From: John Holden Message-Id: <199804080411.OAA06388 at psychvax.psych.usyd.edu.au> To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: Floating Point-How Important to Unix? Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk > After some thought I came to the conclusion that the percentage of data > words miscounted as floating pt. ops (FPOs) is negligible. I think that you will find that the compiler and assember always generate relative addressing for subroutines and jumps. Any call to an earlier address will generate a negative number, hence lots of 017xxxx numbers in the text image. Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA06875 for pups-liszt; Wed, 8 Apr 1998 14:28:16 +1000 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f Received: from renoir.op.net (root at renoir.op.net [209.152.193.4]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA06870 for ; Wed, 8 Apr 1998 14:28:04 +1000 (EST) Received: from goppelt.op.net (d-phlarc1-0a.ppp.op.net [209.152.199.74]) by renoir.op.net (o1/$Revision: 1.15 $) with SMTP id AAA00145; Wed, 8 Apr 1998 00:27:40 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199804080427.AAA00145 at renoir.op.net> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Ed G." To: Greg Lehey Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1998 00:27:40 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Floating Point-How Important to Unix? Reply-to: edgee at cyberpass.net CC: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au In-reply-to: <19980408133357.40721 at freebie.lemis.com> References: <199804080325.XAA26777 at renoir.op.net>; from Ed G. on Tue, Apr 07, 1998 at 11:25:33PM -0400 X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.54) Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk > text with adb to see what purpose they serve. Considering that > floating point was an option, I find it hard to believe that so many > programs, in particular things like tar, would use FP. My guess is that the floating point code is dragged in when certain library routines (e.g., printf and libc) are used, even if the floating point features of the routines are not used. Consider this: Two programs hello.c and nothing.c, identical except that hello.c contains a single printf("hello world\n") inside main. nothing.c has nothing in its main loop. Program--Size--Number of FPOs Reported by my perl script =========================================== nothing.c, 312 bytes, 2 hello.c, 4804 bytes, 115 See what I mean? Ed Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA06927 for pups-liszt; Wed, 8 Apr 1998 14:47:00 +1000 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f Received: from moe.2bsd.com (0 at MOE.2BSD.COM [206.139.202.200]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA06922 for ; Wed, 8 Apr 1998 14:46:55 +1000 (EST) Received: (from sms at localhost) by moe.2bsd.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id VAA19850; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 21:34:43 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1998 21:34:43 -0700 (PDT) From: "Steven M. Schultz" Message-Id: <199804080434.VAA19850 at moe.2bsd.com> To: johnh at psychvax.psych.usyd.edu.au, pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: Floating Point-How Important to Unix? Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk > From: John Holden > > I think that you will find that the compiler and assember always > generate relative addressing for subroutines and jumps. Any call to an Not quite 'always'. In some cases yes, relative addressing is generated but quite frequently you'll see absolute addresses used. Why? I don't know ;) On some machines mode 3 is a bit faster than mode 6 but I doubt that was the reason. Steven Schultz Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA07030 for pups-liszt; Wed, 8 Apr 1998 15:15:27 +1000 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA07025 for ; Wed, 8 Apr 1998 15:15:17 +1000 (EST) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA13740; Wed, 8 Apr 1998 14:45:13 +0930 (CST) Received: (from grog at localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) id OAA12608; Wed, 8 Apr 1998 14:45:08 +0930 (CST) (envelope-from grog) Message-ID: <19980408144508.09240 at freebie.lemis.com> Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1998 14:45:08 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: edgee at cyberpass.net Cc: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: Floating Point-How Important to Unix? References: <199804080325.XAA26777 at renoir.op.net>; <19980408133357.40721 at freebie.lemis.com> <199804080427.AAA00145 at renoir.op.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89i In-Reply-To: <199804080427.AAA00145 at renoir.op.net>; from Ed G. on Wed, Apr 08, 1998 at 12:27:40AM -0400 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk On Wed, 8 April 1998 at 0:27:40 -0400, Ed G. wrote: >> text with adb to see what purpose they serve. Considering that >> floating point was an option, I find it hard to believe that so many >> programs, in particular things like tar, would use FP. > > My guess is that the floating point code is dragged in when certain > library routines (e.g., printf and libc) are used, even if the > floating point features of the routines are not used. > > Consider this: > > Two programs hello.c and nothing.c, identical except that hello.c > contains a single printf("hello world\n") inside main. nothing.c > has nothing in its main loop. > > Program--Size--Number of FPOs Reported by my perl script > =========================================== > nothing.c, 312 bytes, 2 > hello.c, 4804 bytes, 115 > > See what I mean? I don't see that this proves anything. You really need to look at those words and see how they are used. Greg Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id RAA07433 for pups-liszt; Wed, 8 Apr 1998 17:54:10 +1000 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f Received: from Zeke.Update.UU.SE (2026 at Zeke.Update.UU.SE [130.238.11.14]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA07428 for ; Wed, 8 Apr 1998 17:53:54 +1000 (EST) Received: from localhost (bqt at localhost) by Zeke.Update.UU.SE (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id JAA13459; Wed, 8 Apr 1998 09:53:40 +0200 Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1998 09:53:37 +0200 (MET DST) From: Johnny Billquist To: "Ed G." cc: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au, Greg Lehey Subject: Re: Floating Point-How Important to Unix? In-Reply-To: <199804080325.XAA26777 at renoir.op.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk On Tue, 7 Apr 1998, Ed G. wrote: > > How did you recognize the instructions words? Just because it's in > > the text segment doesn't mean it's instructions. > > Yes, this occurred to me too. My perl script doesn't do any fancy > decoding; it just looks for words beginning with octal 17. After > some thought I came to the conclusion that the percentage of data > words miscounted as floating pt. ops (FPOs) is negligible. > > Here's my reasoning--tell me what you think: > > It seemed to me that the two potential sources of fake FPOs are > addresses and data words. Have I left anything out? > > I don't believe that addresses are a problem because the programs > would have to be at least 170000 octal (61441 decimal) bytes long to > generate these addresses at compile time. In fact, the largest > program in the bin directory is awk at 45,260 bytes. cc is only 6510 > bytes (those guys at bell labs really knew how to pack it in!) > > That leaves data. What percent of the data words do you think begin > with 17 octal? > > Here's my "guestimate": 17 octal is a 6 bit binary number. > Assuming the probability of any bit being one is .5, the probability > of finding a word whose first six bits are one would be 1/2^6 or 1 > in 64 which is 1 in 128 bytes. You are making atleast four assumptions which are wrong here. 1) Data starts from address 0. They most likely do not. 2) 17 is not 6 bits, it's four! You are talking about octal representation of 16 bits, which means that the highest digit can only be 0 or 1. 3) All data are not words. How about bytes? If a byte is in the range 240-255 and on an odd address, you'll catch it as a FP opcode. 4) Not all data are addresses. Most negative numbers will have 17 as the high four bits. Of these four assumptions, the fourth is the most serious, and probably the cause of most of your "hits". You'll have to do better... Johnny Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at update.uu.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id HAA10162 for pups-liszt; Thu, 9 Apr 1998 07:36:02 +1000 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA10157 for ; Thu, 9 Apr 1998 07:35:58 +1000 (EST) Received: (from wkt at localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id HAA04236 for pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Thu, 9 Apr 1998 07:37:36 +1000 (EST) From: Warren Toomey Message-Id: <199804082137.HAA04236 at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: Have a safe Easter! To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation) Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1998 07:37:36 +1000 (EST) Reply-To: wkt at cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk Easter's here, I'm off to a friend's wedding. Have a safe & happy break, and I'll see (hear?) from you all on Tuesday. Warren Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id HAA10201 for pups-liszt; Thu, 9 Apr 1998 07:42:08 +1000 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA10196 for ; Thu, 9 Apr 1998 07:42:04 +1000 (EST) Received: (from wkt at localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id HAA04280 for pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Thu, 9 Apr 1998 07:43:42 +1000 (EST) From: Warren Toomey Message-Id: <199804082143.HAA04280 at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: Yet more licenses To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation) Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1998 07:43:42 +1000 (EST) Reply-To: wkt at cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk ----- Forwarded message from Dion Johnson ----- I have 13 more licenses for you, being copied now. I will mail these off tomorrow or Friday. Dion ----- End of forwarded message from Dion Johnson ----- Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id XAA16327 for pups-liszt; Fri, 10 Apr 1998 23:19:34 +1000 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f Received: from mail13.digital.com (mail13.digital.com [192.208.46.30]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA16322 for ; Fri, 10 Apr 1998 23:19:27 +1000 (EST) Received: from cst.ako.dec.com (cst.ako.dec.com [16.151.72.40]) by mail13.digital.com (8.8.8/8.8.8/WV1.0d) with ESMTP id JAA27778 for ; Fri, 10 Apr 1998 09:19:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: by cst.ako.dec.com with Internet Mail Service (5.0.1458.49) id ; Fri, 10 Apr 1998 09:20:09 -0400 Message-ID: <6B84B1FF221BD011B0AC08002BE692066DD917 at excmso.mso.dec.com> From: Bob Supnik To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: RE: Floating Point Bug in Bob's Emulator - second one found Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 09:19:59 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.0.1458.49) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk A second bug has been found in the floating point emulator. The first (in MODf) caused FACTOR to malfunction. This one causes problems in AWK. The bug is in LDEXP. In pdp11_fp.c: case 015: /* LDEXP */ dst = (dstspec <= 07)? R[dstspec]: ReadW (GeteaW (dstspec)); F_LOAD (qdouble, FR[ac], fac); fac.h = (fac.h & ~FP_EXP) | (((dst + FP_BIAS) & FP_M_EXP) << FP_V_EXP); newV = 0; ==> if ((dst > 0177) || (dst <= 0177600)) { Change the indicated line to: if ((dst > 0177) && (dst <= 0177600)) { The test case is: # awk 'END {print 1+2}' < /dev/null incorrectly produced 0, now produces 3. /Bob Supnik Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id XAA16423 for pups-liszt; Fri, 10 Apr 1998 23:50:38 +1000 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f Received: from mail13.digital.com (mail13.digital.com [192.208.46.30]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA16418 for ; Fri, 10 Apr 1998 23:50:29 +1000 (EST) Received: from cst.ako.dec.com (cst.ako.dec.com [16.151.72.40]) by mail13.digital.com (8.8.8/8.8.8/WV1.0d) with ESMTP id JAA00404 for ; Fri, 10 Apr 1998 09:50:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: by cst.ako.dec.com with Internet Mail Service (5.0.1458.49) id ; Fri, 10 Apr 1998 09:51:09 -0400 Message-ID: <6B84B1FF221BD011B0AC08002BE692066DD91B at excmso.mso.dec.com> From: Bob Supnik To: "'PUPS'" Subject: Question re TM11 boostrap Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 09:50:56 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.0.1458.49) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk Several people have asked for a bootstrap for the TM11 magtape. V2.3a has a simple bootstrap that just reads the first magtape record and jumps to it. However, John Holden points out that the M9301 bootstrap actually skips the first record and reads the second. Does anyone have source code for an actual TM11 bootstrap? What do the various versions of UNIX expect in a bootable tape image, particularly BSD 2.9 and 2.11? Thanks /Bob Supnik Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id BAA16774 for pups-liszt; Sat, 11 Apr 1998 01:39:34 +1000 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f Received: from alph02.triumf.ca (alph02.Triumf.CA [142.90.114.18]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id BAA16768 for ; Sat, 11 Apr 1998 01:39:28 +1000 (EST) Received: by alph02.triumf.ca; id AA06532; Fri, 10 Apr 1998 08:35:38 -0700 From: Tim Shoppa Message-Id: <9804101535.AA06532 at alph02.triumf.ca> Subject: Re: Question re TM11 boostrap To: Bob.Supnik at DIGITAL.com (Bob Supnik) Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 08:35:38 -0800 (PDT) Cc: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au In-Reply-To: <6B84B1FF221BD011B0AC08002BE692066DD91B at excmso.mso.dec.com> from "Bob Supnik" at Apr 10, 98 09:50:56 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL22] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk > Several people have asked for a bootstrap for the TM11 magtape. V2.3a > has a simple bootstrap that just reads the first magtape record and > jumps to it. However, John Holden points out that the M9301 bootstrap > actually skips the first record and reads the second. It depends on which OS (and version) you're using, but most of DEC's later OS's made some attempt to have bootable tapes be ANSI-labeled volumes. This meant that the boot block had to come after the VOL1 header. See, for example, the source code to RT-11's DUP utility. > Does anyone have source code for an actual TM11 bootstrap? I certainly have some boot ROM's that I can disassemble. I'll also check my DEC manuals for the toggle-in bootstraps. I know that in some cases it was necessary to re-execute the toggle-in bootstrap if the real boot block was the second file/record. Also note that it wasn't until the late 70's/early 80's that DEC adopted the "second block is the boot block" strategy. You're likely to see different things depending on when a bootstrap was written. > What do the various versions of UNIX expect in a bootable tape image, > particularly BSD 2.9 and 2.11? 2.11 plays it safe by putting down two copies of the boot block at the beginning of the tape, each ending with a filemark. All Q-bus tape bootstraps that might reside in a 11/53's console firmware would be looking for the boot block to be the second block on tape. But as the TM11 wasn't a Q-bus device I don't think the 11/53 firmware is going to resolve this issue. A side comment on the emulator: Have you ever considered putting the 11/53 firmware into your emulator, so that users can use the bootstraps and diagnostics built into it? Would there be copyright problems to resolve before you could do this? Tim. (shoppa at triumf.ca) Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id CAA16834 for pups-liszt; Sat, 11 Apr 1998 02:02:25 +1000 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f Received: from moe.2bsd.com (0 at MOE.2BSD.COM [206.139.202.200]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id CAA16829 for ; Sat, 11 Apr 1998 02:02:19 +1000 (EST) Received: (from sms at localhost) by moe.2bsd.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA14552; Fri, 10 Apr 1998 09:01:24 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 09:01:24 -0700 (PDT) From: "Steven M. Schultz" Message-Id: <199804101601.JAA14552 at moe.2bsd.com> To: Bob.Supnik at digital.com, pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: Question re TM11 boostrap Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk Bob, et al - > Several people have asked for a bootstrap for the TM11 magtape. V2.3a > has a simple bootstrap that just reads the first magtape record and For booting 2.xBSD that will work fine. > jumps to it. However, John Holden points out that the M9301 bootstrap > actually skips the first record and reads the second. True - and that's precisely why bootable tapes (at least starting with 2.9BSD, not sure about V7) have two copies of the tapebootblock at the front. The layout of a boottape is: tapeboot tapeboot boot standaloneprogram 1 ... > Does anyone have source code for an actual TM11 bootstrap? What I use (it's in the 2.11 setup documentation) is: If no other means are available, the following code can be keyed in and executed at (say) 0100000 to boot from a TM tape drive (the magic number 172526 is the address of the TM-11 current memory address register; an adjustment may be necessary if your controller is at a nonstandard address): 012700 (mov $unit, r0) 000000 (normally unit 0) 012701 (mov $172526, r1) 172526 010141 (mov r1, -(r1)) 012741 (mov $60003, -(r1)) 060003 (if unit 1 use 060403, etc) 000777 (br .) This does nothing more than read the first record (much like V2.3a already does) into location 0. Then a ^E is typed followed by "g 0". > What do the various versions of UNIX expect in a bootable tape image, > particularly BSD 2.9 and 2.11? The tape bootblocks for 2.xBSD all know to skip TWO copies of the tapebootblock in order to find the 'boot' program. The actual standalone programs present differ between 2.9 and 2.11 but 2.11's is: tapeboot tapeboot boot disklabel mkfs restor icheck dump of root fs For 2.11 the 'tapeboot' is a universal bootblock - it can handle all 4 tape drive types (MS, MM, MT, TMSCP). 2.9 on the otherhand has different tapebootblocks at the front of the tape depending on the drive type (MS or MM/MT, no TMSCP support in 2.9). Thus if you have a MS bootblock you can't boot from the tape on a MT based system. Steven Schultz Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA18196 for pups-liszt; Sat, 11 Apr 1998 12:46:16 +1000 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f Received: from renoir.op.net (root at renoir.op.net [209.152.193.4]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA18185 for ; Sat, 11 Apr 1998 12:46:07 +1000 (EST) Received: from goppelt.op.net (d-phlarc1-01.ppp.op.net [209.152.199.65]) by renoir.op.net (o1/$Revision: 1.16 $) with SMTP id WAA07389 for ; Fri, 10 Apr 1998 22:45:58 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199804110245.WAA07389 at renoir.op.net> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Ed G." To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 22:40:35 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Bob's Magtape Vindicated-Unix to Blame! Reply-to: edgee at cyberpass.net X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.54) Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk I described in an earlier post how uv7 tar would fail, extracting the same file over and over again (see below for example). It turns out that Bob's magtape works just fine: the problem is in tar! uv7 tar has a bug in it--a misplaced assignment--which causes it to read the first block over and over (see below for example) when used with the 'f' option. The bug is indirectly a result of a trick tar uses to determine the block size on the mag tape: rather than interrogate Unix about the block size (can someone tell me how do this?), tar first attempts to read the maximum block size supported by tar (20*512 bytes). The number of bytes actually returned is taken to be the actual block size and is used by tar for reads thereafter. Two simple workarounds for /dev/rmt0 are: tar vx0 and tar vxfb /dev/rmt0 1 The problem: # tar vxf /dev/rmt0 x mysqrt.c, 383 bytes, 1 tape blocks x mysqrt.c, 383 bytes, 1 tape blocks x mysqrt.c, 383 bytes, 1 tape blocks x mysqrt.c, 383 bytes, 1 tape blocks x mysqrt.c, 383 bytes, 1 tape blocks etc. Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA18199 for pups-liszt; Sat, 11 Apr 1998 12:46:20 +1000 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f Received: from renoir.op.net (root at renoir.op.net [209.152.193.4]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA18186 for ; Sat, 11 Apr 1998 12:46:09 +1000 (EST) Received: from goppelt.op.net (d-phlarc1-01.ppp.op.net [209.152.199.65]) by renoir.op.net (o1/$Revision: 1.16 $) with SMTP id WAA07393; Fri, 10 Apr 1998 22:46:00 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199804110246.WAA07393 at renoir.op.net> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Ed G." To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 22:40:34 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Floating Point-How Important to Unix? Reply-to: edgee at cyberpass.net CC: Johnny Billquist References: <199804080325.XAA26777 at renoir.op.net> In-reply-to: X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.54) Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk I'd like to thank everyone who wrote me on this subject, and especially those described the weaknesses they saw in my reasoning. I have found it useful sometimes to take a step back and reconsider what it is I am trying do and how I am trying to do it. My purpose here was to get a sense for how heavily the Unix utilities rely on floating point. I was not looking for a numerically exact "right" answer, but rather an estimate which was good enough. At this point, now that I have access to the source code, it seems to me that an easier and more accurate way of doing that would be to count the occurences of floats and doubles using grep or a similar utility. What do you all think? > You are making atleast four assumptions which are wrong here. > > 1) Data starts from address 0. They most likely do not. I'm not sure what you mean here; can you elaborate? As I see it my key assumption about data was that it is relatively small in size compared to code in a given program file. This was certainly the case with factor, where less than 10% of the runtime image consisted of static data. > 2) 17 is not 6 bits, it's four! You are talking about octal representation > of 16 bits, which means that the highest digit can only be 0 or 1. You are absolutely right. Thank you for pointing this out. > 3) All data are not words. How about bytes? If a byte is in the range > 240-255 and on an odd address, you'll catch it as a FP opcode. My routine scanned words, not bytes, so I don't think this would apply. > 4) Not all data are addresses. Most negative numbers will have 17 as the > high four bits. This is true. But if data is negligible compared to code, then I don't see how this wouldn't affect an estimate very much. Ed Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA18203 for pups-liszt; Sat, 11 Apr 1998 12:46:23 +1000 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f Received: from renoir.op.net (root at renoir.op.net [209.152.193.4]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA18197 for ; Sat, 11 Apr 1998 12:46:16 +1000 (EST) Received: from goppelt.op.net (d-phlarc1-01.ppp.op.net [209.152.199.65]) by renoir.op.net (o1/$Revision: 1.16 $) with SMTP id WAA07386; Fri, 10 Apr 1998 22:45:54 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199804110245.WAA07386 at renoir.op.net> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Ed G." To: John Holden Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 22:40:35 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Floating Point-How Important to Unix? Reply-to: edgee at cyberpass.net CC: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au In-reply-to: <199804080411.OAA06388 at psychvax.psych.usyd.edu.au> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.54) Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk > I think that you will find that the compiler and assember always > generate relative addressing for subroutines and jumps. Any call to an > earlier address will generate a negative number, hence lots of 017xxxx > numbers in the text image. I am not an expert on PDP-11 op codes, so you may well be right about this. In response to your criticism, I looked up jmp and branch instructions in the *Processor Handbook*. Based only on my quick skim of the handbook, I don't think negative relative addresses would be a problem because: 1. branch instructions are followed by a signed byte offset (-128, 127). This would not be a problem for my routine which only looks at the first four bits of every word and would ignore the offset in the odd byte. 2. jump instructions, which seem at first glance to be a problem because they are followed by a 16 bit word, are not because they always use absolute addressing, never relative and hence would never be followed by a negative number. Ed Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id BAA25622 for pups-liszt; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 01:22:02 +1000 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f Received: from skatter.USask.Ca (skatter.usask.ca [128.233.14.1]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id BAA25617 for ; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 01:21:55 +1000 (EST) Received: from hydrus.USask.Ca (hydrus.usask.ca [128.233.14.27]) by skatter.USask.Ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA01657; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 09:21:47 -0600 (CST) From: Neil Johnson Received: (from neil at localhost) by hydrus.USask.Ca (8.7.2/8.7.2) id JAA21310; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 09:21:45 -0600 (CST) Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 09:21:45 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199804131521.JAA21310 at hydrus.USask.Ca> To: Bob.Supnik at digital.com, pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: Question re TM11 boostrap Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk I have booted a TMB11 with a simple program to load the first record into block 0. The tape must be rewound to BOT, then the program at location 0 run. I don't think the 9301 bootstrap actually skips the first record. Hope this helps. Neil Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id UAA28778 for pups-liszt; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 20:21:13 +1000 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA28773 for ; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 20:21:09 +1000 (EST) Received: (from wkt at localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id UAA09911 for pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 20:23:21 +1000 (EST) From: Warren Toomey Message-Id: <199804141023.UAA09911 at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: More licenses have arrived! To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation) Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 20:23:21 +1000 (EST) Reply-To: wkt at cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk All, The latest batch of licenses has arrived from Dion at SCO: Stefan Bieschewski, Robin Birch, W. Bulte, Anthony Duell, Alexander Duerrschnabel, Kevin Dunlap, Arno Griffioen, Neil Johnson, Greg Lehey, Kirk McKusick, Joseph Myers, Carl Phillips, Jason Wells As always, if you want access to the on-line PUPS Archive, or a copy on tape/CD, then email your request to pupsarchive at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au. You will receive a form reply, and we will process it as soon as possible. Note that we won't start burning the first CDs until around the 21st April. If you want on-line access, I will need a fax number or a PGP key so that I can mail you the access details, with a moderate amount of security. I won't accept PGP keys via email. I'll accept keys via finger, web page, key signing service, etc. Please include the method to obtain your key in your email request above. Cheers, Warren Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id EAA00785 for pups-liszt; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 04:47:46 +1000 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f Received: from seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu (seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu [152.1.88.4]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id EAA00780 for ; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 04:47:40 +1000 (EST) Received: (from rdkeys at localhost) by seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA03748; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 14:44:16 -0400 (EDT) From: "Robert D. Keys" Message-Id: <199804141844.OAA03748 at seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> Subject: PDP-11 Newbie Alert --- (gotta start somewhere) To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 14:44:16 -0400 (EDT) Cc: rdkeys at seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu (Robert D. Keys) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk Greetings to the list, and thanks to Warren for telling me about it. I am quite interested in the older unices, and especially the potential for home use on a smallish box of some sort. (Nostalgia trip, but why are most of us here?) Sadly, my only experiences with PDP-11ish things are so long ago as to be rather faded. We used one box (two small chassis about 8 inches high stacked together -- possibly PDP-8 or PDP-11) as some sort of remote job entry terminal that the grad students would be occasionally allowed to touch and load their SAS jobs up from (mid 70's) to the mainframe at Iowa State U. I remember the two DEC boxes and some sort of glass tty, and a paper tape reader that was used to boot it in some way, should the woeful grad student crash it late at night. That got me rather interested in computers and for several years after that time when I came to NCSU, I tried all kinds of ways to fund and coerce some sort of Heathkit version of that with some sort of early unix out of the powers that be, but they tended to think it was computing and not agronomy, so I wound up doing that with z80's and s-100 bus crates that could be hooked up to the mainframe remotely via CP/M and paper tape or 81K floppies locally. But, that has always perked my interest in the old unix beasts. I still have the old pdp-11 Heathkit manual sets and builders instructions, should I find one in the bilges somewhere....(:+}}... Anyway, I was noticing the pdp-11 system 5/6/7 binaries and the freebie sco licenses on Minnie, and was wondering where to go for info on how to bring the things up. I saw one emulator for DOS? --- (neat way maybe to use an old 4 meg dos box?). Can these things be made to run via a 386/486 bootstrap and emulator, on something like a minix/aix/FreeBSD sort of machine? I would expect something like a maintenance boot disk, and a minimal file system to get the machine up and into the emulator proper, might be feasible, maybe? Also, I see pdp-11ish things in surplus around here quite often. What would be needed to cobble together a system, for a minimal system 7 sort of box to play with? If there were a list of required boards and chassis for various levels of system, that might help a newbie get some sort of machine together. Thanks, and any comments for the newbie are appreciated. Bob Keys rdkeys at seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA02353 for pups-liszt; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 12:39:48 +1000 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f Received: from serv1.is4.u-net.net (hme0.serv1.is4.u-net.net [195.102.240.153]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id MAA02348 for ; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 12:39:41 +1000 (EST) Received: from indy.dunnington.york.ac.uk [195.102.197.125] by serv1.is4.u-net.net with smtp (Exim 1.73 #1) id 0yPI6I-00072v-00; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 02:39:02 +0000 Received: by indy.dunnington.york.ac.uk (940816.SGI.8.6.9/980207.PNT) for pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au id CAA09570; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 02:31:22 GMT Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 02:31:22 GMT From: pete@dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) X-Beware: experimental sendmail.cf 940816.SGI.8.6.9/980207.PNT Message-Id: <9804150331.ZM9568 at indy.dunnington.york.ac.uk> In-Reply-To: "Robert D. Keys" "PDP-11 Newbie Alert --- (gotta start somewhere)" (Apr 14, 14:44) References: <199804141844.OAA03748 at seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> Reply-To: pete at dunnington.u-net.com X-Mailer: Z-Mail (3.2.2 10apr95 MediaMail) To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: PDP-11 Newbie Alert --- (gotta start somewhere) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk On Apr 14, 14:44, Robert D. Keys wrote: > I am quite interested in the older unices, and especially the potential > for home use on a smallish box of some sort. (Nostalgia trip, but why > are most of us here?) > Anyway, I was noticing the pdp-11 system 5/6/7 binaries and the freebie > sco licenses on Minnie, and was wondering where to go for info on how > to bring the things up. I saw one emulator for DOS? --- (neat way maybe > to use an old 4 meg dos box?). Can these things be made to run via > a 386/486 bootstrap and emulator, on something like a minix/aix/FreeBSD > sort of machine? I would expect something like a maintenance boot disk, > and a minimal file system to get the machine up and into the emulator > proper, might be feasible, maybe? Yes, you want one of the emulator packages and a disk image for that. BTW, the disk images I've seen don't have man pages, so you may want to download those separately. > Also, I see pdp-11ish things in surplus around here quite often. > What would be needed to cobble together a system, for a minimal system 7 > sort of box to play with? If there were a list of required boards and > chassis for various levels of system, that might help a newbie get some > sort of machine together. There are so many permutations, it's hard to make a list. There are two general classes of PDP-11, QBus and Unibus. Most even-numbered models are Unibus, most odd-numbered models are QBus (but not all). QBus machines tend to be smaller. As to operating system versions, 2.11BSD needs at least an 11/73 or 83 to run, as it needs memory management with separate address spaces for instructions and data. 7th Edition will also run on those machines, and if the kernel is suitably compiled, will also run on smaller machines such as 11/23s, which are quite common. Early versions will run on a whole range of models. Whatever you get, you'll need a processor (which might be a single card or as many as ten), memory (256K will do fine for 7th Edition, but more is better), at least one serial line unit for a terminal (or PC with terminal emulation software), and a disk controller with a suitable hard disk. Here again there are lots of possibilities, you want at least 10MB for 7th Edition and a lot more for BSD. Others may wish to expand on what I've written. Personally, I'd go see what you can find, describe it to the list, and wait for the 101 pieces of advice you'll get from all of us about its suitability/desirability :-) -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA02452 for pups-liszt; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 13:09:43 +1000 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f Received: from renoir.op.net (root at renoir.op.net [209.152.193.4]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA02444 for ; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 13:09:37 +1000 (EST) Received: from goppelt.op.net (d-phlarc1-00.ppp.op.net [209.152.199.64]) by renoir.op.net (o1/$Revision: 1.16 $) with SMTP id XAA00267 for ; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 23:09:25 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199804150309.XAA00267 at renoir.op.net> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Ed G." To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 23:09:26 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: PDP-11 Addressing Modes Reply-to: edgee at cyberpass.net X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.54) Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk The first line of chapter on addressing modes in the *processor handbook* states: "In the PDP-11 family, all operand addressing is accomplished through the eight general purpose registers." If I understand correctly, even things like immediate operands and addresses are represented as an addressing mode of a register, namely the PC. I think this is quite cool. What do people here on the list think of the flexibility and generality of the PDP-11's addressing modes? Is this a well thought out architecture in your view? How are the PDP-11's addressing modes better or worse than those of other processors, past and present? Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA02467 for pups-liszt; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 13:09:51 +1000 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f Received: from renoir.op.net (root at renoir.op.net [209.152.193.4]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA02451 for ; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 13:09:41 +1000 (EST) Received: from goppelt.op.net (d-phlarc1-00.ppp.op.net [209.152.199.64]) by renoir.op.net (o1/$Revision: 1.16 $) with SMTP id XAA00270; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 23:09:28 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199804150309.XAA00270 at renoir.op.net> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Ed G." To: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 23:09:26 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Floating Point-How Important Reply-to: edgee at cyberpass.net CC: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au In-reply-to: <9804111346.ZM7828 at indy.dunnington.york.ac.uk> References: "Ed G." "Re: Floating Point-How Important to Unix?" (Apr 10, 22:40) X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.54) Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk > What about position-independent code? Your query got me thinking about the various addressing modes of the PDP-11 and how they might affect my brute force approach to estimating floating point ops for C programs. Is this what you meant when you asked about position independent code? And yes, these addressing modes could mean the death knell for my approach. Index mode is definitely a problem as C programs seem to use r5 as a frame pointer with both positive and *negative* 16 bit offsets (see assembly language listing of my square root program below). I don't think PC relative mode (e.g., clr addr) is a problem (if the data segment follows the text, then the offsets would all be positive and all less than the size of the program). Is there such a thing as PC relative mode for the jmp op code? In other words, can you make long + or -32K relative jumps on the PDP-11? If so, this too could potentially confound my estimates. .globl _absv .text _absv: ~~absv: jsr r5,csv ~n=4 jbr L1 L2:clrf r0 cmpf 4(r5),r0 cfcc jge L4 movf 4(r5),r0 negf r0 jbr L3 jbr L5 L4:movf 4(r5),r0 jbr L3 L5:L3:jmp cret L1:jbr L2 .globl _mysqrt .text _mysqrt: ~~mysqrt: jsr r5,csv ~n=4 jbr L6 L7:~g=177762 ~err=177752 movf 4(r5),r0 divf $40400,r0 movf r0,-16(r5) .data L10000:77777;177776;177777;177777 .text movf 4(r5),r0 divf L10000,r0 movf r0,-26(r5) movf -16(r5),r0 movf r0,-(sp) mov $L9,-(sp) jsr pc,_printf add $12,sp L10:movf -16(r5),r0 mulf -16(r5),r0 subf 4(r5),r0 movf r0,-(sp) jsr pc,_absv add $10,sp cmpf -26(r5),r0 cfcc jgt L11 movf -16(r5),r0 mulf -16(r5),r0 addf 4(r5),r0 movf $40400,r1 mulf -16(r5),r1 divf r1,r0 movf r0,-16(r5) movf -16(r5),r0 movf r0,-(sp) mov $L12,-(sp) jsr pc,_printf add $12,sp jbr L10 L11:movf -16(r5),r0 jbr L8 L8:jmp cret L6:sub $20,sp jbr L7 .globl _main .text _main: ~~main: jsr r5,csv jbr L13 L14:.data L10001:77777;177776;177777;177777 .text movf L10001,r0 movf r0,-16(r5) ~n=177762 movf -16(r5),r0 movf r0,-(sp) jsr pc,_mysqrt add $10,sp movf r0,-(sp) mov $L16,-(sp) jsr pc,_printf add $12,sp L15:jmp cret L13:sub $10,sp jbr L14 .globl fltused .globl .data L9:.byte 111,156,151,164,151,141,154,40,147,165,145,163,163,72 .byte 40,45,56,61,66,146,12,12,0 L12:.byte 147,165,145,163,163,72,40,45,56,61,66,146,12,0 L16:.byte 12,115,171,40,163,161,165,141,162,145,40,162,157,157 .byte 164,40,151,163,72,40,45,56,61,66,146,12,0 Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA02612 for pups-liszt; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 13:54:11 +1000 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f Received: from europe.std.com (europe.std.com [199.172.62.20]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA02607 for ; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 13:54:06 +1000 (EST) Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.7.6/BZS-8-1.0) id XAA06690; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 23:54:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: by world.std.com (TheWorld/Spike-2.0) id AA11012; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 23:53:58 -0400 Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 23:53:58 -0400 From: allisonp@world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Message-Id: <199804150353.AA11012 at world.std.com> To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: PDP-11 Addressing Modes Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk <"In the PDP-11 family, all operand addressing is accomplished through ; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 23:14:16 +1000 (EST) Received: by toes.its.uwlax.edu; id AA04337; NX5.67e/42; Wed, 15 Apr 98 08:17:50 -0500 Message-Id: <9804151317.AA04337 at toes.its.uwlax.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 (NeXT Mail 3.3 v118.2) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Received: by NeXT.Mailer (1.118.2.RR) From: Milo Velimirovic Date: Wed, 15 Apr 98 08:17:47 -0500 To: pete at dunnington.u-net.com Subject: Re: PDP-11 Newbie Alert --- (gotta start somewhere) Cc: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Reply-To: milov at toes.its.uwlax.edu References: <199804141844.OAA03748 at seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> <9804150331.ZM9568 at indy.dunnington.york.ac.uk> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au id XAA04116 Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk Hi, > > >Begin forwarded message: >[snip] >On Apr 14, 14:44, Robert D. Keys wrote: > [snip] > >> Also, I see pdp-11ish things in surplus around here quite often. >> What would be needed to cobble together a system, for a minimal system 7 >> sort of box to play with? If there were a list of required boards and >> chassis for various levels of system, that might help a newbie get some >> sort of machine together. > >There are so many permutations, it's hard to make a list. There are two >general classes of PDP-11, QBus and Unibus. Most even-numbered models are >Unibus, most odd-numbered models are QBus (but not all). QBus machines tend to >be smaller. QBUS 11/2 11/03 11/23 11/53 11/73 11/83 Unibus 11/05 11/10 11/15 11/20 11/24 11/3411/35 11/40 11/44 11/45 11/55 11/60 11/70 11/84... Odd numbered machines where the odd digit is a 5 are usually a Unibus machine. (They're also old and will eat you out of house and home with their appetite for electricity. :) Has anyone looked at the possibility of retrofitting older pdp11's with modern switching power supplies to ease the electricity demands...? (donning asbestos suit in anticipation of cries of "heretic" and "Frankenstein"...) > >As to operating system versions, 2.11BSD needs at least an 11/73 or 83 to run, How about an 11/44? >as it needs memory management with separate address spaces for instructions and >data. 7th Edition will also run on those machines, and if the kernel is >suitably compiled, will also run on smaller machines such as 11/23s, which are >quite common. Early versions will run on a whole range of models. > >Whatever you get, you'll need a processor (which might be a single card or as >many as ten), memory (256K will do fine for 7th Edition, but more is better), >at least one serial line unit for a terminal (or PC with terminal emulation >software), and a disk controller with a suitable hard disk. Here again there >are lots of possibilities, you want at least 10MB for 7th Edition and a lot >more for BSD. > >Others may wish to expand on what I've written. Personally, I'd go see what >you can find, describe it to the list, and wait for the 101 pieces of advice >you'll get from all of us about its suitability/desirability :-) > >-- > >Pete Peter Turnbull > Dept. of Computer Science > University of York > --- Milo Velimirovic Unix Computer Network Administrator (608) 785-8030 Information Technology Services -- Network Services University of Wisconsin - La Crosse La Crosse, Wisconsin 54601 USA 43 48 05 N 91 14 22 W Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id AAA04293 for pups-liszt; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 00:03:10 +1000 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f Received: from alph02.triumf.ca (alph02.Triumf.CA [142.90.114.18]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id AAA04288 for ; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 00:03:04 +1000 (EST) Received: by alph02.triumf.ca; id AA13468; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 07:03:00 -0700 From: Tim Shoppa Message-Id: <9804151403.AA13468 at alph02.triumf.ca> Subject: Re: PDP-11 Newbie Alert --- (gotta start somewhere) To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 07:03:00 -0800 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <9804151317.AA04337 at toes.its.uwlax.edu> from "Milo Velimirovic" at Apr 15, 98 08:17:47 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL22] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk > Has anyone looked at the possibility of retrofitting older pdp11's with modern > switching power supplies to ease the electricity demands...? > (donning asbestos suit in anticipation of cries of "heretic" and "Frankenstein"...) It's hardly heretical - all Unibus 11's have always had switching power supplies for the high-current (+5V and - for core machines - +20V) lines. Depending on the exact model, +15 and/or -15 may have come from a linear power supply, but these are very low-current lines and not a major factor in power consumption. The way to greatly reduce the power consumption of a big Unibus -11 is to go to a more modern CPU and memory in the original backplane. For an extreme example, a 11/70 with 2 MW of core memory in MJ11 boxes will draw about 70 Amps at 120 VAC, for over 8kW of power consumption. But you can replace the 11/70 CPU set with a Quickware replacment and take the CPU part of power consumption down to 3 or so Amps at 120 VAC, or under 0.4kW. > >As to operating system versions, 2.11BSD needs at least an 11/73 or 83 to run, > > How about an 11/44? Yep, does work. (I had always been promising Steven that I would get the FP emulator working so I could run it on my FP-less 11/44, but I got a FP board before I got the emulator going. So you need the FP board for a 11/44, still!) Tim. Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id AAA04313 for pups-liszt; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 00:06:49 +1000 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f Received: from alph02.triumf.ca (alph02.Triumf.CA [142.90.114.18]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id AAA04308 for ; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 00:06:44 +1000 (EST) Received: by alph02.triumf.ca; id AA09801; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 07:06:41 -0700 From: Tim Shoppa Message-Id: <9804151406.AA09801 at alph02.triumf.ca> Subject: Re: PDP-11 Newbie Alert --- (gotta start somewhere) To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 07:06:41 -0800 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <9804150331.ZM9568 at indy.dunnington.york.ac.uk> from "Pete Turnbull" at Apr 15, 98 02:31:22 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL22] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk > Whatever you get, you'll need a processor (which might be a single card or as > many as ten), memory (256K will do fine for 7th Edition, but more is better), > at least one serial line unit for a terminal (or PC with terminal emulation > software), and a disk controller with a suitable hard disk. Here again there > are lots of possibilities, you want at least 10MB for 7th Edition and a lot > more for BSD. One important point to note is that if you want support for modern MSCP disk devices, you want to go with 2.11BSD. The most modern disk devices supported by 7th Edition are the RL02 and the various Massbus disks. Tim. (shoppa at triumf.ca) Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id AAA04414 for pups-liszt; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 00:29:07 +1000 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f Received: from seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu (seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu [152.1.88.4]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id AAA04409 for ; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 00:28:59 +1000 (EST) Received: (from rdkeys at localhost) by seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA04925; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 10:25:26 -0400 (EDT) From: "Robert D. Keys" Message-Id: <199804151425.KAA04925 at seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> Subject: Re: PDP-11 Newbie Alert --- (gotta start somewhere) In-Reply-To: <9804151317.AA04337 at toes.its.uwlax.edu> from Milo Velimirovic at "Apr 15, 98 08:17:47 am" To: milov at toes.its.uwlax.edu Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 10:25:26 -0400 (EDT) Cc: pete at dunnington.u-net.com, pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk > >There are so many permutations, it's hard to make a list. There are two > >general classes of PDP-11, QBus and Unibus. Most even-numbered models are > >Unibus, most odd-numbered models are QBus (but not all). QBus machines tend > >to be smaller. > > QBUS 11/2 11/03 11/23 11/53 11/73 11/83 > Unibus 11/05 11/10 11/15 11/20 11/24 11/3411/35 11/40 11/44 11/45 11/55 > 11/60 11/70 11/84... > > Odd numbered machines where the odd digit is a 5 are usually a Unibus machine. Which would be the ones to look out for for practical unix use? > (They're also old and will eat you out of house and home with their appetite > for electricity. :) I have heard that from the computer students around here who chuckle at the thought that I would attempt to run such a beastie. They are chasing Alphas and Pentiums, whilst I am chasing pdp11s? Interesting directions. For the sake of discussion, what sorts of power requirements would be required for a lowend version 7 or 2.11 BSD box? Say that I wanted a machine that would allow me to troff/Tex a little, and do some minor C compiling, associated with that. > Has anyone looked at the possibility of retrofitting older pdp11's with modern > switching power supplies to ease the electricity demands...? I often use old DEC linear power supplies to run some of my antique radio equipment. The power supplies themselves are not that much of an efficiency thing, but the loads probably are. Minimizing unneeded loads on a home system would be of merit. That is why I was wondering what sort of mininmal box would do for home use, and still give some kind of reasonable service. The electicity mongers need to be fed, but I don't need to treat them to a full 7 course meal every day. Are there special electrical requirements? I can always find a separate 20 or 30 amp 115 volt circuit, but the 220 lines are tied up in my antique radio transmitters. Just how hungry are these pdp11s? > (donning asbestos suit in anticipation of cries of "heretic" and > "Frankenstein"...) Don't worry, I still keep my ol' net asbestos flak suit hanging up in the corner, for occasional donning.....(:+}}.... It is a little dusty. It be faire windes and following seas about the net mostly, these days. I consider it great fun to resurrect the old dinosaurs. I still keep a few 8 inch CP/M S-100 boxes running, for fun. Alas, finding parts is always a problem, anymore, especially in the deep south where silicon valley ain't. You have to make do with what you can cobble together. I find that I mix and mash parts from old surplus radio equipment, computers, or whatever until I can make the thing work. That is as much the fun of it as actually watching the platters whirr and spin. > >As to operating system versions, 2.11BSD needs at least an 11/73 or 83 > >to run, > > How about an 11/44? > > >as it needs memory management with separate address spaces for instructions > >and data. 7th Edition will also run on those machines, and if the kernel is > >suitably compiled, will also run on smaller machines such as 11/23s, which > >are quite common. Early versions will run on a whole range of models. What exactly were the Heathkit things in relation to the mainstream pdp11s? There was a unix that was available on the Heathkit boxes, but I never did get enough money together at the time to get one --- had to settle for that CP/M thingie, instead. > >Whatever you get, you'll need a processor (which might be a single card or as > >many as ten), memory (256K will do fine for 7th Edition, but more is better), > >at least one serial line unit for a terminal (or PC with terminal emulation > >software), and a disk controller with a suitable hard disk. Here again there > >are lots of possibilities, you want at least 10MB for 7th Edition and a lot > >more for BSD. What would BSD be comfy with, with a little space for play. I remember the old Xenix boxes that we had (RS 16B things) ran a sort of v7 in about 15 megs HD. The FreeBSD things require 100 or so megs to come up. What sizes of HD would one be looking out for, in the surplus piles? > >Others may wish to expand on what I've written. Personally, I'd go see what > >you can find, describe it to the list, and wait for the 101 pieces of advice > >you'll get from all of us about its suitability/desirability :-) I enjoy all the advice and comments. Thanks to all for them. Bob Keys Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id BAA04630 for pups-liszt; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 01:34:50 +1000 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f Received: from moe.2bsd.com (0 at MOE.2BSD.COM [206.139.202.200]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id BAA04625 for ; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 01:34:44 +1000 (EST) Received: (from sms at localhost) by moe.2bsd.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id IAA22441 for pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 08:22:57 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 08:22:57 -0700 (PDT) From: "Steven M. Schultz" Message-Id: <199804151522.IAA22441 at moe.2bsd.com> To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: PDP-11 Newbie Alert --- (gotta start somewhere) Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk Milo - Hi. > From: Milo Velimirovic > > How about an 11/44? Indeed the 11/44 will work and very well with 2.11BSD. Before the one at work got shutdown (RA81 failure and the support department here doesn't like PDP-11s and refuses to help fix it) the care and feeding of 2.11 was shared between a 11/44 (for UNIBUS related stuff) and a 11/73 (for QBUS). The 11/84 and 94 will also work very well. Qbus models from the 11/53 on up will also work (the 53 hasn't actually been 'tested' but "should" work, the 73, 83, 93 are all known to work). While the 11/45 has the MMU aspects required (split I/D and supervisor mode) it doesn't support enough memory. The 11/45 can only have 248kb of memory and a full 2.11 kernel+networking+diskcache+datastructures setup weighs in at almost 400kb Steven Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id BAA04752 for pups-liszt; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 01:50:59 +1000 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f Received: from europe.std.com (europe.std.com [199.172.62.20]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id BAA04744 for ; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 01:50:52 +1000 (EST) Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.7.6/BZS-8-1.0) id LAA20390; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 11:50:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: by world.std.com (TheWorld/Spike-2.0) id AA21199; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 11:50:47 -0400 Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 11:50:47 -0400 From: allisonp@world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Message-Id: <199804151550.AA21199 at world.std.com> To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: PDP-11 Newbie Alert --- (gotta start somewhere) Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk <> QBUS 11/2 11/03 11/23 11/53 11/73 11/83 <> (They're also old and will eat you out of house and home with their app <> for electricity. :) None the above systems are tough it really depends on the disks used. The later of the three in the microPDP-11 format (ba23/123) are very resonable using MSCP and MFM drives. The QBUS-11s are modest power compared to the Ubus-11s. Also the Qbus-11s win in the small sizing as well. I have two BA11n boxen one with 11/23b and the other 11/73, RX02, RL02, and MSCP disks all in one 50" rack. Has anyone looked at the possibility of retrofitting older pdp11's with <> switching power supplies to ease the electricity demands...? You could if you set up event, ACOK and DCOK. Most of the DEC supplies are actually lowvoltage switchers (744s) and the later ones are high voltage swicthers (BA11s/BA32/BA123... all qbus). ; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 02:42:27 +1000 (EST) Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 09:39:56 -0700 From: "Daniel A. Seagraves" Subject: Re: PDP-11 Newbie Alert --- (gotta start somewhere) To: allisonp at world.std.com cc: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au In-Reply-To: <199804151550.AA21199 at world.std.com> Message-ID: <13348030224.14.DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com> Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk [What PDP-11s run Unix...] I currently run Version 7 on a PDP-11/83 Q-bus box stored under my bed. (I have a hospital bed, the kind you can crank up and down - Mine's about 3/4 the way up) The RL02 I boot from is twice the size of the CPU! I also have an MSCP device that I load RT-11 from. BTW, there is a setting in the '83 Setup program called allow-alternate-bootblock, you can directly boot Unix by enabling this. Does that work on an 11/73 as well? I just turn on the RL, start the disk and the CPU at the same time, and the disk comes ready just at the 9-step check finishes. I say unix and off it goes. Now, I I could just get it to see my DHQ11... ------- Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id DAA05100 for pups-liszt; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 03:26:30 +1000 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f Received: from hesiod.nhh.no (root at hesiod.nhh.no [158.37.96.15]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id DAA05095 for ; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 03:26:22 +1000 (EST) Received: from athene.nhh.no (root at athene.nhh.no [158.37.96.16]) by hesiod.nhh.no (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA28669; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 19:26:02 +0200 (CEST) Received: from Hamartun.Priv.NO (Uhamartu at localhost) by athene.nhh.no (8.8.5/8.8.5) with UUCP id TAA21659; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 19:21:21 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from tih at localhost) by barsoom.Hamartun.Priv.NO (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA22652; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 18:42:56 +0200 (CEST) To: edgee at cyberpass.net Cc: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: PDP-11 Addressing Modes References: <199804150309.XAA00267 at renoir.op.net> From: Tom Ivar Helbekkmo Date: 15 Apr 1998 18:42:54 +0200 In-Reply-To: "Ed G."'s message of "Tue, 14 Apr 1998 23:09:26 -0400" Message-ID: <86ogy3kpdd.fsf at barsoom.Hamartun.Priv.NO> Lines: 28 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.6.4/Emacs 19.34 Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk "Ed G." writes: > What do people here on the list think of the flexibility and > generality of the PDP-11's addressing modes? Is this a well thought > out architecture in your view? How are the PDP-11's addressing modes > better or worse than those of other processors, past and present? It's simply beautiful. The PDP-11 architecture is the pinnacle of 16-bit computing, as the 6502 (the world's first RISC chip) is the unchallenged champion of elegance in 8-bit microprocessors. The cleanliness and orthogonality of the PDP-11 is a wonder to behold. To top it off, they also knew when to _break_ orthogonality to make proper use of the addressing mode bit combinations that don't make sense for use with the program counter. A good friend of mine, for whom I have much respect, claims that the PDP-10 is even more beautiful. I can't comment on this, not knowing that architecture, but myself I've seen nothing to challenge the '11. Among more modern processors, I'm quite partial to Motorola's MC68K. I also like the Transputer -- who doesn't? As for microcontrollers, I've worked quite a bit with the Intel MCS-51 chips, and enjoyed it. For the definition of "butt ugly", see the Intel i386 and its ilk. -tih -- Popularity is the hallmark of mediocrity. --Niles Crane, "Frasier" Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id EAA05275 for pups-liszt; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 04:18:46 +1000 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f Received: from toad.xkl.com (toad.xkl.com [192.94.202.40]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id EAA05268 for ; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 04:18:39 +1000 (EST) Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 11:16:24 -0700 From: "Daniel A. Seagraves" Subject: Re: PDP-11 Addressing Modes To: tih+mail at Hamartun.Priv.NO cc: edgee at cyberpass.net, pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au In-Reply-To: <86ogy3kpdd.fsf at barsoom.Hamartun.Priv.NO> Message-ID: <13348047785.14.DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com> Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk [PDP-10 inst. set is nicer than PDP-11...] Not sure about that, I haven't play with either enough to compare them. But, judging by the pictures I have, a PDP-11/70 is about 1/2 as cool looking as a KA-10! [I *HAVE* to scan these and put them online sometime...] ------- Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id EAA05338 for pups-liszt; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 04:26:15 +1000 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f Received: from hesiod.nhh.no (root at hesiod.nhh.no [158.37.96.15]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id EAA05332 for ; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 04:26:08 +1000 (EST) Received: from athene.nhh.no (root at athene.nhh.no [158.37.96.16]) by hesiod.nhh.no (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA00359; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 20:26:02 +0200 (CEST) Received: from Hamartun.Priv.NO (Uhamartu at localhost) by athene.nhh.no (8.8.5/8.8.5) with UUCP id UAA21718; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 20:21:36 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from tih at localhost) by barsoom.Hamartun.Priv.NO (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA22982; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 20:02:04 +0200 (CEST) To: "Steven M. Schultz" Cc: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: PDP-11 Newbie Alert --- (gotta start somewhere) References: <199804151522.IAA22441 at moe.2bsd.com> From: Tom Ivar Helbekkmo Date: 15 Apr 1998 20:02:02 +0200 In-Reply-To: "Steven M. Schultz"'s message of "Wed, 15 Apr 1998 08:22:57 -0700 (PDT)" Message-ID: <86g1jfklph.fsf at barsoom.Hamartun.Priv.NO> Lines: 16 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.6.4/Emacs 19.34 Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk "Steven M. Schultz" writes: > Indeed the 11/44 will work and very well with 2.11BSD. Before the > one at work got shutdown (RA81 failure and the support department here > doesn't like PDP-11s and refuses to help fix it) the care and feeding > of 2.11 was shared between a 11/44 (for UNIBUS related stuff) and a > 11/73 (for QBUS). Do you have the documentation you need for that RA81, Steven? I've got the user's manual here, which isn't much, of course, but at least tells you how to hook up a terminal, run diagnostics, and interpret the results... -tih -- Popularity is the hallmark of mediocrity. --Niles Crane, "Frasier" Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id FAA05651 for pups-liszt; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 05:49:32 +1000 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f Received: from Zeke.Update.UU.SE (2026 at Zeke.Update.UU.SE [130.238.11.14]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id FAA05645 for ; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 05:48:47 +1000 (EST) Received: from localhost (bqt at localhost) by Zeke.Update.UU.SE (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id VAA08980; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 21:48:03 +0200 Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 21:48:00 +0200 (MET DST) From: Johnny Billquist To: "Ed G." cc: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: Floating Point-How Important to Unix? In-Reply-To: <199804110246.WAA07393 at renoir.op.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk On Fri, 10 Apr 1998, Ed G. wrote: > My purpose here was to get a sense for how heavily the Unix utilities > rely on floating point. I was not looking for a numerically exact > "right" answer, but rather an estimate which was good enough. > > At this point, now that I have access to the source code, it seems to > me that an easier and more accurate way of doing that would be to > count the occurences of floats and doubles using grep or a similar > utility. What do you all think? Would probably be a better idea, yes. :-) > > You are making atleast four assumptions which are wrong here. > > > > 1) Data starts from address 0. They most likely do not. > > I'm not sure what you mean here; can you elaborate? > > As I see it my key assumption about data was that it is > relatively small in size compared to code in a given program file. > This was certainly the case with factor, where less than 10% of the > runtime image consisted of static data. But you made an assumption that addrtesses to data don't come in theflt. op-code range, since few programs have that much data. But, by assuming that they don't have "that much" data, you must also assume that whatever little dtaa there is don't start at a high address. Your program can have as little as one word of data, located at 177776, referenced a zillion times, and your algorithm will catch it as a zillion flt. ops. > > 3) All data are not words. How about bytes? If a byte is in the range > > 240-255 and on an odd address, you'll catch it as a FP opcode. > > My routine scanned words, not bytes, so I don't think this would > apply. Oh, it most definitely does. Tell me, what is the difference between a string of two bytes, a word, and an instruction in memory? Nothing. It's just a question of how you look at it. So when you are talking about a word, how do you know that the programmer didn't write two bytes there? The reason I said "odd addres" was because the byte at the odd address is the high byte of the word you are looking at. > > 4) Not all data are addresses. Most negative numbers will have 17 as the > > high four bits. > > This is true. But if data is negligible compared to code, then I > don't see how this wouldn't affect an estimate very much. That is a good point. But it's still a problem. The point is more or less always, but a lot of small errors... :-) Johnny Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at update.uu.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id GAA05701 for pups-liszt; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 06:07:06 +1000 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f Received: from Zeke.Update.UU.SE (2026 at Zeke.Update.UU.SE [130.238.11.14]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id GAA05696 for ; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 06:06:49 +1000 (EST) Received: from localhost (bqt at localhost) by Zeke.Update.UU.SE (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id WAA09548; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 22:06:31 +0200 Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 22:06:30 +0200 (MET DST) From: Johnny Billquist To: "Ed G." cc: John Holden , pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: Floating Point-How Important to Unix? In-Reply-To: <199804110245.WAA07386 at renoir.op.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk On Fri, 10 Apr 1998, Ed G. wrote: > I am not an expert on PDP-11 op codes, so you may well be right about > this. > > In response to your criticism, I looked up jmp and branch > instructions in the *Processor Handbook*. Based only on my quick > skim of the handbook, I don't think negative relative addresses would > be a problem because: > > 1. branch instructions are followed by a signed byte offset (-128, > 127). This would not be a problem for my routine which only looks at > the first four bits of every word and would ignore the offset in the > odd byte. Correct. > 2. jump instructions, which seem at first glance to be a problem > because they are followed by a 16 bit word, are not because they > always use absolute addressing, never relative and hence would never > be followed by a negative number. 2 wrong. . Where did you get the idea that jump instructions have to be absolute? . What about jumps to absolute addresses in the flt. op-code range? I'm not sure about the 2BSD assembler, but the normal way of coding is to have *all* addressing relative in the DEC assemblers. That means not just jumps, but all instructions which takes arguments. Almost all have word arguments, branch being one of the few exceptions. Johnny Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at update.uu.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id GAA05804 for pups-liszt; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 06:33:36 +1000 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f Received: from Zeke.Update.UU.SE (2026 at Zeke.Update.UU.SE [130.238.11.14]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id GAA05798 for ; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 06:33:29 +1000 (EST) Received: from localhost (bqt at localhost) by Zeke.Update.UU.SE (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id WAA10435; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 22:33:21 +0200 Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 22:33:19 +0200 (MET DST) From: Johnny Billquist To: "Ed G." cc: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: PDP-11 Addressing Modes In-Reply-To: <199804150309.XAA00267 at renoir.op.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk On Tue, 14 Apr 1998, Ed G. wrote: > The first line of chapter on addressing modes in the *processor > handbook* states: > > "In the PDP-11 family, all operand addressing is accomplished through > the eight general purpose registers." > > If I understand correctly, even things like immediate operands and > addresses are represented as an addressing mode of a register, namely > the PC. I think this is quite cool. > > What do people here on the list think of the flexibility and > generality of the PDP-11's addressing modes? Is this a well thought > out architecture in your view? How are the PDP-11's addressing modes > better or worse than those of other processors, past and present? The PDP-11 did it right, all others did it wrong. :-) Well, at least as long as you're talking about general register machines. (And points could be made that the M68K isn't very general about its registers...) For accumulator machines, I guess the vote goes to the PDP-10. All with a big :-) of course. This is religion... Johnny Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at update.uu.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id GAA05852 for pups-liszt; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 06:42:10 +1000 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f Received: from Zeke.Update.UU.SE (2026 at Zeke.Update.UU.SE [130.238.11.14]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id GAA05847 for ; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 06:41:13 +1000 (EST) Received: from localhost (bqt at localhost) by Zeke.Update.UU.SE (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id WAA10538; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 22:41:03 +0200 Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 22:41:02 +0200 (MET DST) From: Johnny Billquist To: Milo Velimirovic cc: pete at dunnington.u-net.com, pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: PDP-11 Newbie Alert --- (gotta start somewhere) In-Reply-To: <9804151317.AA04337 at toes.its.uwlax.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk On Wed, 15 Apr 1998, Milo Velimirovic wrote: > QBUS 11/2 11/03 11/23 11/53 11/73 11/83 > Unibus 11/05 11/10 11/15 11/20 11/24 11/3411/35 11/40 11/44 11/45 11/55 11/60 11/70 11/84... Two additions to make the list officially complete: QBUS: 11/93 Unibus: 11/94 The last PDP-11s by DEC. Then you have the never-11s. (See the FAQ.) > Odd numbered machines where the odd digit is a 5 are usually a Unibus machine. > (They're also old and will eat you out of house and home with their appetite > for electricity. :) They are also normally just about the same machine as the next number in line, but for OEM markets. 11/05 - 11/10 11/15 - 11/20 11/35 - 11/40 > Has anyone looked at the possibility of retrofitting older pdp11's with modern > switching power supplies to ease the electricity demands...? > (donning asbestos suit in anticipation of cries of "heretic" and "Frankenstein"...) :-) Well, as far as I know, all of the already have switching supplies... Possibly not the 11/15 and 11/20, but if anyone has one of those, and makes such a modification, I *will* brand him as an heretic. :-) Johnny Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at update.uu.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id HAA05987 for pups-liszt; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 07:36:11 +1000 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f Received: from serv1.is4.u-net.net (hme0.serv1.is4.u-net.net [195.102.240.153]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id HAA05981 for ; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 07:35:40 +1000 (EST) Received: from indy.dunnington.york.ac.uk [195.102.197.126] by serv1.is4.u-net.net with smtp (Exim 1.73 #1) id 0yPZWI-0006CM-00; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 21:15:03 +0000 Received: by indy.dunnington.york.ac.uk (940816.SGI.8.6.9/980207.PNT) for pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au id VAA16397; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 21:08:01 GMT Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 21:08:01 GMT From: pete@dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) X-Beware: experimental sendmail.cf 940816.SGI.8.6.9/980207.PNT Message-Id: <9804152208.ZM16395 at indy.dunnington.york.ac.uk> In-Reply-To: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) "Re: PDP-11 Addressing Modes" (Apr 14, 23:53) References: <199804150353.AA11012 at world.std.com> Reply-To: pete at dunnington.u-net.com X-Mailer: Z-Mail (3.2.2 10apr95 MediaMail) To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: PDP-11 Addressing Modes Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk On Apr 14, 23:53, Allison J Parent wrote: > > Personally I consider it a high point in 16 bit computing and one that > is a standard of comparison. VAX carried this to the 32bit realm. I > know of few 16 bit microprocessors that are as capable as the PDP-11 > and as fast (the ti9900 was good but slow, Z8000 was close). Don't forget the 68000. Motorola deliberately adopted a lot of similar design features for the 68K; there's a very interesting design paper still available called "Design Philosophy Behind Motorola's 68000", publication no.AR208. The same sort of instruction/address-mode orthogonality as found in the PDP11, is one of the big features. > Terrible cpu, we should junk them all... ;-) ...so I can collect them. All right, providing I can have the ones on this side of the Atlantic... -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id HAA05994 for pups-liszt; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 07:36:39 +1000 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f Received: from serv1.is4.u-net.net (hme0.serv1.is4.u-net.net [195.102.240.153]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id HAA05989 for ; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 07:36:25 +1000 (EST) Received: from indy.dunnington.york.ac.uk [195.102.197.1] by serv1.is4.u-net.net with smtp (Exim 1.73 #1) id 0yPZqJ-0006St-00; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 21:35:48 +0000 Received: by indy.dunnington.york.ac.uk (940816.SGI.8.6.9/980207.PNT) for pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au id VAA16486; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 21:30:12 GMT Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 21:30:12 GMT From: pete@dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) X-Beware: experimental sendmail.cf 940816.SGI.8.6.9/980207.PNT Message-Id: <9804152230.ZM16484 at indy.dunnington.york.ac.uk> Reply-To: pete at dunnington.u-net.com X-Mailer: Z-Mail (3.2.2 10apr95 MediaMail) To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation) Subject: Re: PDP-11 Newbie Alert --- (gotta start somewhere) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk On Apr 15, 22:41, Johnny Billquist wrote: > On Wed, 15 Apr 1998, Milo Velimirovic wrote: > > > QBUS 11/2 11/03 11/23 11/53 11/73 11/83 > > Unibus 11/05 11/10 11/15 11/20 11/24 11/3411/35 11/40 11/44 11/45 11/55 11/60 11/70 11/84... > Two additions to make the list officially complete: > > QBUS: 11/93 > Unibus: 11/94 And one more to make the list officially really complete: Unibus: 11/04 (which, despite the numer, is more like an 11/34 than anything else). BTW, the 11/2 is a board, not a machine. Machines with 11/2s were sold as 11/03s. And of course there's the Falcon (etc) range of boards, which used the same microprocessors and bus interface as QBus machines, but had memory and I/O integrated onto one board. They're not really PDP-11s, though. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id HAA06065 for pups-liszt; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 07:57:26 +1000 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f Received: from Zeke.Update.UU.SE (2026 at Zeke.Update.UU.SE [130.238.11.14]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA06060 for ; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 07:56:52 +1000 (EST) Received: from localhost (bqt at localhost) by Zeke.Update.UU.SE (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id XAA12901; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 23:56:16 +0200 Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 23:56:14 +0200 (MET DST) From: Johnny Billquist To: Pete Turnbull cc: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: PDP-11 Addressing Modes In-Reply-To: <9804152208.ZM16395 at indy.dunnington.york.ac.uk> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk On Wed, 15 Apr 1998, Pete Turnbull wrote: > On Apr 14, 23:53, Allison J Parent wrote: > > > > > > > > Personally I consider it a high point in 16 bit computing and one that > > is a standard of comparison. VAX carried this to the 32bit realm. I > > know of few 16 bit microprocessors that are as capable as the PDP-11 > > and as fast (the ti9900 was good but slow, Z8000 was close). > > Don't forget the 68000. Motorola deliberately adopted a lot of similar design > features for the 68K; there's a very interesting design paper still available > called "Design Philosophy Behind Motorola's 68000", publication no.AR208. The > same sort of instruction/address-mode orthogonality as found in the PDP11, is > one of the big features. You got to be kidding?!? The 68K is a miserable beast at the best of times. Separated address and data registers, PC is a special register, some addressing modes are not allowed in some instructions, some manipulations can only be done on data register, not address registers, immediate mode is just an assembler fake, it's actually another instruction, the semantics of some instructions differ depending on what type of arguments you use, writing PIC can be a real pain unless you have the 68K20. The list is long and sad. The 68K is what happens if you take a good design (PDP-11) and mungle up every part of the design. It's like if they never really understood why the PDP-11 was done they way it was, and copied the parts they though nifty and continued with adding their own strange ideas on top of it. Having said all this, it's still a nice thing compared to Intel stuff, I guess. :-) (But I've only programmed the Z80...) Johnny Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at update.uu.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id IAA06096 for pups-liszt; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 08:01:13 +1000 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f Received: from psychvax.psych.usyd.edu.au (psychvax.psych.usyd.edu.au [129.78.83.1]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA06090 for ; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 08:01:08 +1000 (EST) Received: (from johnh at localhost) by psychvax.psych.usyd.edu.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA06424 for pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 08:00:52 +1000 Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1998 08:00:52 +1000 From: John Holden Message-Id: <199804152200.IAA06424 at psychvax.psych.usyd.edu.au> To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: PDP-11 Newbie Alert --- (gotta start somewhere) Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk > Well, as far as I know, all of the already have switching supplies... > Possibly not the 11/15 and 11/20, but if anyone has one of those, and > makes such a modification, I *will* brand him as an heretic. :-) The 11/20 used a switch mode power supply (H720) (I still have a functional machine!). You would have to go back to something like a PDP8/e (got one of these two!) for a huge linear power supply. It has a huge SCR for the overvoltage crowbar in order to dump all the energy in the filter capacitors Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id IAA06106 for pups-liszt; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 08:01:19 +1000 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f Received: from Zeke.Update.UU.SE (2026 at Zeke.Update.UU.SE [130.238.11.14]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA06088 for ; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 08:00:32 +1000 (EST) Received: from localhost (bqt at localhost) by Zeke.Update.UU.SE (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id AAA12933; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 00:00:22 +0200 Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1998 00:00:20 +0200 (MET DST) From: Johnny Billquist To: Pete Turnbull cc: PDP Unix Preservation Subject: Re: PDP-11 Newbie Alert --- (gotta start somewhere) In-Reply-To: <9804152230.ZM16484 at indy.dunnington.york.ac.uk> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk On Wed, 15 Apr 1998, Pete Turnbull wrote: > On Apr 15, 22:41, Johnny Billquist wrote: > > On Wed, 15 Apr 1998, Milo Velimirovic wrote: > > > > > QBUS 11/2 11/03 11/23 11/53 11/73 11/83 > > > Unibus 11/05 11/10 11/15 11/20 11/24 11/3411/35 11/40 11/44 11/45 11/55 > 11/60 11/70 11/84... > > > Two additions to make the list officially complete: > > > > QBUS: 11/93 > > Unibus: 11/94 > > And one more to make the list officially really complete: > > Unibus: 11/04 > (which, despite the numer, is more like an 11/34 than anything else). Sigh. Why can't I get the last word. :-) Is there anyone who can figure out any more models? > BTW, the 11/2 is a board, not a machine. Machines with 11/2s were sold as > 11/03s. And of course there's the Falcon (etc) range of boards, which used the > same microprocessors and bus interface as QBus machines, but had memory and I/O > integrated onto one board. They're not really PDP-11s, though. Eh? I'd definitely say that the Falcon was a PDP-11, it does sport a F11. Actually, it was called the 11/21, or something like that, wasn't it? But it was a board, and not a machine... What about the VT103? Johnny Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at update.uu.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA06285 for pups-liszt; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 09:08:21 +1000 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f Received: from serv1.is4.u-net.net (hme0.serv1.is4.u-net.net [195.102.240.153]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id JAA06280 for ; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 09:08:09 +1000 (EST) Received: from indy.dunnington.york.ac.uk [195.102.197.234] by serv1.is4.u-net.net with smtp (Exim 1.73 #1) id 0yPbGw-0000Zp-00; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 23:07:18 +0000 Received: by indy.dunnington.york.ac.uk (940816.SGI.8.6.9/980207.PNT) for pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au id XAA16650; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 23:08:26 GMT Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 23:08:26 GMT From: pete@dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) X-Beware: experimental sendmail.cf 940816.SGI.8.6.9/980207.PNT Message-Id: <9804160008.ZM16648 at indy.dunnington.york.ac.uk> In-Reply-To: Johnny Billquist "Re: PDP-11 Newbie Alert --- (gotta start somewhere)" (Apr 16, 0:00) References: Reply-To: pete at dunnington.u-net.com X-Mailer: Z-Mail (3.2.2 10apr95 MediaMail) To: PDP Unix Preservation Subject: Re: PDP-11 Newbie Alert --- (gotta start somewhere) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk On Apr 16, 0:00, Johnny Billquist wrote: > Sigh. Why can't I get the last word. :-) If I'd been quicker off the mark with my 11/04, you would have :-) > Eh? I'd definitely say that the Falcon was a PDP-11, it does sport a F11. > Actually, it was called the 11/21, or something like that, wasn't it? > But it was a board, and not a machine... That was the one called an SBC-11/21 Single Board Computer, aka KXT11. Wasn't it a T11 processor? It had ODT in ROM, not in microcode. There's one with a J11, too. Was that a Falcon+ ? I think there were three versions altogether. Anyway, I just meant that the Falcons weren't sold in quite the same way; the ones I've seen have been used more like today's embedded processors, set up to do a very specific task, rather than to run a general-purpose O/S. I expect it could run RT-11, though. The User's Guide I have says the ROM includes DD/DX/DY bootstraps, among others. I've certainly seen at least one in a BA11-N box with other DEC cards, though that particular one didn't have any disks. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA06809 for pups-liszt; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 12:06:55 +1000 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f Received: from europe.std.com (europe.std.com [199.172.62.20]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA06804 for ; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 12:06:45 +1000 (EST) Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.7.6/BZS-8-1.0) id WAA25551; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 22:06:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: by world.std.com (TheWorld/Spike-2.0) id AA10172; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 22:06:40 -0400 Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 22:06:40 -0400 From: allisonp@world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Message-Id: <199804160206.AA10172 at world.std.com> To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: PDP-11 Newbie Alert --- (gotta start somewhere) Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk ; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 18:59:08 +1000 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by spektr.ludvika.se (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id KAA09430 for ; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 10:58:51 +0200 (CEST) Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1998 10:58:50 +0200 (CEST) From: Jorgen Pehrson To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Strategy for inst. UNIX on my PDP11? Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk Hi, What's the best way of installing UNIX on my PDP11/83? What I have: PDP11/83, RD52, a QIC tape streamer doing some sort of TS11 emulation. A MicroVAX II with a TK50 streamer and NetBSD installed. DEQNA ethernet. And I have a spare DEQNA laying about. What I was thinking of doing is writing the distribution to TK50 on the MVII, move the TK50 streamer to the PDP and go from there. Is the RD52 big enough to contain a complete system? What UNIX versions will work on my PDP? I was thinking of installing 2.11BSD. Thanks for any input! -- Jorgen Pehrson HP 9000/380 (NetBSD/hp300 1.3) jp at spektr.ludvika.se DECstation 5000/200 (NetBSD/pmax 1.3) PDP11/83 - Intergraph InterAct - VAXstation 2000 (VMS 5.5-2) Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id BAA09346 for pups-liszt; Fri, 17 Apr 1998 01:56:26 +1000 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f Received: from moe.2bsd.com (0 at MOE.2BSD.COM [206.139.202.200]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id BAA09341 for ; Fri, 17 Apr 1998 01:56:17 +1000 (EST) Received: (from sms at localhost) by moe.2bsd.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id IAA12057 for pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 08:47:14 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1998 08:47:14 -0700 (PDT) From: "Steven M. Schultz" Message-Id: <199804161547.IAA12057 at moe.2bsd.com> To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: Strategy for inst. UNIX on my PDP11? Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk Greetings - > From: Jorgen Pehrson > > What's the best way of installing UNIX on my PDP11/83? > What I have: > PDP11/83, RD52, a QIC tape streamer doing some sort of TS11 emulation. That tape device sounds like it is a TK25. It uses the DC600A (60mb) cartridges. > A MicroVAX II with a TK50 streamer and NetBSD installed. DEQNA ethernet. > And I have a spare DEQNA laying about. The DEQNA is supported by 2.11BSD so it would be a good idea to add that board to the 11/83. > What I was thinking of doing is writing the distribution to TK50 on the > MVII, move the TK50 streamer to the PDP and go from there. Ok - that will work fine. Another possiibility would be to move the TK25 (QIC) drive to the uVax-II and write the tapes to DC600A tapes. Then move the TK25 back to the 11/25 and boot > Is the RD52 big enough to contain a complete system? Alas no. The RD52 is only ~30mb (the RD53 is about 70mb and the RD54 is ~159mb). A complete 2.11 system needs about 100mb (~8mb for a root filesystem, 4mb for a swap partition and ~80mb for sources plus binaries). A ZIP cartridge will (just) hold a complete 2.11 system (with about 8mb left over). To hold a complete 2.11 system you'll need either two RD53 drives or a single RD54. A minimal system (root filesystem plus selected binaries from /usr) could be installed on a RD52 but it would definitely not be a complete system capable of recompiling itself. > What UNIX versions will work on my PDP? I was thinking of installing > 2.11BSD. 2.11 is an excellent match for the 11/83. Earlier versions (2.9 for example) will have a difficult time because MSCP support did not arrive until 2.10BSD. TMSCP support was not present until 2.10.1BSD Steven Schultz sms at moe.2bsd.com Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id HAA10305 for pups-liszt; Fri, 17 Apr 1998 07:14:15 +1000 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f Received: from post.mail.demon.net (post-30.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.40]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id HAA10300 for ; Fri, 17 Apr 1998 07:14:08 +1000 (EST) Received: from (falstaf.demon.co.uk) [158.152.152.109] by post.mail.demon.net with smtp (Exim 1.82 #2) id 0yPvyp-0000Ph-00; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 22:14:00 +0100 Message-ID: <5kppZIANRnN1EwQW at falstaf.demon.co.uk> Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1998 22:12:45 +0100 To: Jorgen Pehrson Cc: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au From: Robin Birch Subject: Re: Strategy for inst. UNIX on my PDP11? In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Turnpike (32) Version 3.05 Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk In message , Jorgen Pehrson writes >Hi, >What's the best way of installing UNIX on my PDP11/83? >What I have: >PDP11/83, RD52, a QIC tape streamer doing some sort of TS11 emulation. > >A MicroVAX II with a TK50 streamer and NetBSD installed. DEQNA ethernet. >And I have a spare DEQNA laying about. > >What I was thinking of doing is writing the distribution to TK50 on the >MVII, move the TK50 streamer to the PDP and go from there. > Yes, this will be the simplest way >Is the RD52 big enough to contain a complete system? > no, an RD54 is probably the best to aim for if you can get your hands on one. >What UNIX versions will work on my PDP? I was thinking of installing >2.11BSD. That will do fine > > >Thanks for any input! > >-- >Jorgen Pehrson HP 9000/380 (NetBSD/hp300 1.3) >jp at spektr.ludvika.se DECstation 5000/200 (NetBSD/pmax 1.3) >PDP11/83 - Intergraph InterAct - VAXstation 2000 (VMS 5.5-2) > Cheers Robin Robin Birch robin at falstaf.demon.co.uk M1ASU/2E0ARJ Old computers and radios always welcome