* Installation of 2.11BSD
@ 1998-05-05 19:34 Matthias Bruestle
0 siblings, 0 replies; only message in thread
From: Matthias Bruestle @ 1998-05-05 19:34 UTC (permalink / raw)
[-- Warning: decoded text below may be mangled, UTF-8 assumed --]
[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 310551 bytes --]
Mahlzeit
My hardware:
Mentec M70 with 512kB RAM (that must be enough) which can boot
from DX DY DL DU DM DB MS MT and has 4 serial ports.
MSCP/DU-Controller which can boot from DM, DP, DL, DR, MS,
MT, MU, SY, DU.
It is connected to a 1.2MB-5.25"-FDD and a MFM-HDD of unknown
size wich I will get tomorrow. (I have now the dox for my
controller.)
Kernel:
To use these 4 serial ports, do I have to set "NKL 4" or are
these not KL11/DL11s? One of these is the normal console
unter RT-11.
Is "NBUF 32" OK for 512kB RAM?
Should I set UCB_CLIST NO or YES?
Installation:
I think there are three possible ways of installing it:
1) Boot from a RT-11-Floppy and transfer the whole disk with
rtkerm.
The disk will be bigger than 32MB, so this does not work?
2) Boot from a RT-11-Floppy and transfer the root-fs and the
swap-partition then boot BSD and transfer somehow the
usr-data (kermit? write simple program?).
This sould also install the disklabel.
3) Boot from a BSD-Floppy, disklabel, mkfs, transfer data
(kermit? write simple program?).
The kernel and diskimages will allways be made on an emulator.
What do you think is the best/easiest way? Or have you a better
idea? (Make a tape and use the TU58-emulator?)
Thanks
endergone Zwiebeltuete
--
insanity inside
Received: (from major at localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA06631
for pups-liszt; Wed, 6 May 1998 15:59:52 +1000 (EST)
Received: from chico.franken.de (dns.franken.de [193.175.24.33])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA06626
for <pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Wed, 6 May 1998 15:59:38 +1000 (EST)
Received: from mbsks.UUCP by chico.franken.de with UUCP
(Smail3.2 #2) id m0yWxby-005CFVC; Wed, 6 May 1998 08:23:26 +0200 (MET DST)
Received: by mbsks.franken.de (Linux Smail3.1.28.1 #14)
id m0yWxdJ-000HprC; Wed, 6 May 98 08:24 MET DST
Message-Id: <m0yWxdJ-000HprC at mbsks.franken.de>
From: m@mbsks.franken.de (Matthias Bruestle)
Subject: Installation of 2.11BSD (II)
To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (pubs)
Date: Wed, 6 May 1998 08:24:49 +0200 (MET DST)
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL31 (25)]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
Mahlzeit
I'm using 2.11_rp_unknown[1] an the newest version of the supnik emulator.
When I'm compiling a kernel (with the newest 2.11BSD sources), I get
at the end:
./checksys unix
overlay 6 is empty and there are non-empty overlays following it.
System will occupy 156960 bytes of memory (including buffers and clists).
end {0052310} nbuf {0012014} buf {0033654}
nproc {0012002} proc {0042454} ntext {0012004}
text {0051350} nfile {0012010} file {0047370}
ninode {0012006} inode {0012076} ncallout {0012012}
callout {0024562} ucb_clist {0012020} nclist {0012016}
ram_size {0000000} xitdesc {0012074} quotdesc {0000000}
namecache {0025242} _iosize {0010030}
**** SYSTEM IS NOT BOOTABLE. ****
*** Exit 1
then I get very often Bus Errors:
# ./config SONJA
./config: 1041 Bus error - core dumped
Copying standard files to ../SONJA.
./config: 1051 Bus error - core dumped
./config: 1052 Bus error - core dumped
./config: ../SONJA/ioconf.c: cannot create
./config: ../SONJA/param.c: cannot create
Setting configuration options for SONJA.
c./config: ../SONJA/loop.h: cannot create
^C# ^C
# mkdir
Bus error - core dumped
# mkdir X
Bus error - core dumped
#
I configured the emulator with 1MB RAM. I compiled it with and without
optimization.
Is this a problem with the distribution, with the emulator or with
the compiler (gcc 2.7.2.1)?
Mahlzeit
endergone Zwiebeltuete
[1] The "distributed" 2.11BSD is not so stable. It is often killing the
filesystem.
--
insanity inside
Received: (from major at localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA06684
for pups-liszt; Wed, 6 May 1998 16:14:59 +1000 (EST)
Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA06678
for <pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Wed, 6 May 1998 16:14:55 +1000 (EST)
Received: (from wkt at localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id QAA02895; Wed, 6 May 1998 16:38:21 +1000 (EST)
From: Warren Toomey <wkt@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199805060638.QAA02895 at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Re: Installation of 2.11BSD (II)
To: m at mbsks.franken.de (Matthias Bruestle)
Date: Wed, 6 May 1998 16:38:21 +1000 (EST)
Cc: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
In-Reply-To: <m0yWxdJ-000HprC at mbsks.franken.de> from Matthias Bruestle at "May 6, 98 08:24:49 am"
Reply-To: wkt at cs.adfa.oz.au
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
In article by Matthias Bruestle:
> I'm using 2.11_rp_unknown[1] an the newest version of the supnik emulator.
[that's in the PUPS Archive, for those without a src license]
> When I'm compiling a kernel (with the newest 2.11BSD sources), I get
> [problems]
>
> I configured the emulator with 1MB RAM. I compiled it with and without
> optimization. Is this a problem with the distribution, with the emulator
> or with the compiler [used to build the emulator?] (gcc 2.7.2.1)?
>
> The "distributed" 2.11BSD is not so stable. It is often killing the
> filesystem.
Hmm, Steven Schultz did find yet another bug in Bob's emulator which fixed
the crashing vi problem. As Steven knows heaps more about 2.11 than I, here
are some general purpose suggestions from me.
+ Manually fsck on bootup. Does that help prevent fs corruption,
or is the system killing the filesystem on a regular basis?
+ Can you build a GENERIC kernel? Does it boot?
+ The 2.11_rp_unknown disk image was built with the new P11
emulator from the Begemot crew. You might try compiling and
installing this emulator, and see how 2.11BSD performs.
Anyway, Steven might offer some better advice! Greg Lehey might be able
to provide you with the P11 config files he uses. I've got the new P11
built at home, but I can't get the files on it from work.
I'm off for a short break, but I'll be back Monday. Best of luck with it.
Warren
Received: (from major at localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA06826
for pups-liszt; Wed, 6 May 1998 16:43:53 +1000 (EST)
Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [139.130.136.133])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA06818
for <pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Wed, 6 May 1998 16:43:47 +1000 (EST)
Received: (from grog at localhost)
by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) id QAA00723;
Wed, 6 May 1998 16:37:11 +0930 (CST)
(envelope-from grog)
Message-ID: <19980506163710.A329 at freebie.lemis.com>
Date: Wed, 6 May 1998 16:37:10 +0930
From: Greg Lehey <grog@lemis.com>
To: wkt at cs.adfa.oz.au, Matthias Bruestle <m at mbsks.franken.de>
Cc: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: Installation of 2.11BSD (II)
References: <m0yWxdJ-000HprC at mbsks.franken.de> <199805060638.QAA02895 at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i
In-Reply-To: <199805060638.QAA02895 at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>; from Warren Toomey on Wed, May 06, 1998 at 04:38:21PM +1000
WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog
Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia
Phone: +61-8-8388-8286
Fax: +61-8-8388-8725
Mobile: +61-41-739-7062
Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
On Wed, 6 May 1998 at 16:38:21 +1000, Warren Toomey wrote:
> In article by Matthias Bruestle:
>> I'm using 2.11_rp_unknown[1] an the newest version of the supnik emulator.
>
> [that's in the PUPS Archive, for those without a src license]
>
>> When I'm compiling a kernel (with the newest 2.11BSD sources), I get
>> [problems]
>>
>> I configured the emulator with 1MB RAM. I compiled it with and without
>> optimization. Is this a problem with the distribution, with the emulator
>> or with the compiler [used to build the emulator?] (gcc 2.7.2.1)?
>>
>> The "distributed" 2.11BSD is not so stable. It is often killing the
>> filesystem.
>
> Hmm, Steven Schultz did find yet another bug in Bob's emulator which fixed
> the crashing vi problem. As Steven knows heaps more about 2.11 than I, here
> are some general purpose suggestions from me.
>
>> Manually fsck on bootup. Does that help prevent fs corruption,
> or is the system killing the filesystem on a regular basis?
>
>> Can you build a GENERIC kernel? Does it boot?
>
>> The 2.11_rp_unknown disk image was built with the new P11
> emulator from the Begemot crew. You might try compiling and
> installing this emulator, and see how 2.11BSD performs.
>
> Anyway, Steven might offer some better advice! Greg Lehey might be able
> to provide you with the P11 config files he uses. I've got the new P11
> built at home, but I can't get the files on it from work.
Well, I started an answer, and decided that Steven would be able to
answer better, but since you mention my name, OK, here I am.
One point:
> Is this a problem with the distribution, with the emulator or with
> the compiler (gcc 2.7.2.1)?
First, the compiler is certainly not gcc. That would never fit in the
address space of a PDP-11. Secondly, I'd guess it's the emulator. I
don't think many people have tried 2.11BSD on the Supnik emulator.
I'm using the Begemot emulator (Emulators/P11-2.3 in the archive). I
get:
[5] root--> cd /usr/src/sys/GRANDPA/
[6] root--> ./checksys unix
System will occupy 295600 bytes of memory (including buffers and clists).
end {0122636} nbuf {0013562} buf {0053542}
nproc {0013550} proc {0077060} ntext {0013552}
text {0121416} nfile {0013556} file {0115726}
ninode {0013554} inode {0013646} ncallout {0013560}
callout {0044274} ucb_clist {0013566} nclist {0013564}
ram_size {0000000} xitdesc {0013644} quotdesc {0000000}
namecache {0053150} _iosize {0000000}
[7] root-->
I won't pretend that the documentation of the interpreter is ideal,
nor that it's easy to set up. It took me quite a while. Take a look
at the files in ftp://ftp.lemis.com/pub/pups. They are:
-rw-r--r-- 1 root lemis 11477 May 6 16:18 README-emu
-rw-r--r-- 1 root lemis 1746 May 6 16:18 p11conf
-rwxr-xr-x 1 root lemis 315 May 6 16:19 run_211
README-emu is a brief (and hurried) description of what I did to get
the emulator working, p11conf is my current configuration, and run_211
is the command file I run to actually start the emulator. Note that
what you get when you run the emulator is just the diagnostic console;
to actually use the machine, you need to telnet to ports 10000 to
10003. Anybody interested in so doing can telnet to pdp11.lemis.com
and log in as guest, password "Today only". Don't break anything,
please--I haven't checked security too much.
Greg
--
See complete headers for address and phone numbers
finger grog at lemis.com for PGP public key
Received: (from major at localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA08014
for pups-liszt; Thu, 7 May 1998 00:38:54 +1000 (EST)
Received: from aiai.ed.ac.uk (eigg.aiai.ed.ac.uk [129.215.41.7])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA08009
for <pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Thu, 7 May 1998 00:38:45 +1000 (EST)
Received: from todday.aiai.ed.ac.uk (todday.aiai.ed.ac.uk [129.215.105.40])
by aiai.ed.ac.uk (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA04718
for <pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Wed, 6 May 1998 16:01:21 +0100 (BST)
Received: (tfb at localhost) by todday.aiai.ed.ac.uk (8.6.13/8.6.12) id QAA08913; Wed, 6 May 1998 16:01:21 +0100
Date: Wed, 6 May 1998 16:01:21 +0100
Message-Id: <199805061501.QAA08913 at todday.aiai.ed.ac.uk>
From: Tim Bradshaw <tfb@aiai.ed.ac.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: First edition Unix manuals
X-Mailer: VM 6.32 under 19.14 XEmacs Lucid
Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
In case other people haven't seen this, Dennis Ritchie has (scanned)
versions of these at:
http://www.cs.bell-labs.com/~dmr
--tim
Received: (from major at localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA08241
for pups-liszt; Thu, 7 May 1998 01:53:08 +1000 (EST)
Received: from seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu (seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu [152.1.88.4])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA08236
for <pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Thu, 7 May 1998 01:53:01 +1000 (EST)
Received: (from rdkeys at localhost)
by seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA00456;
Wed, 6 May 1998 12:12:37 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Robert D. Keys" <rdkeys@seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu>
Message-Id: <199805061612.MAA00456 at seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu>
Subject: Re: Early unix on simulators --- partial newbie success ---yeah!
In-Reply-To: <199805061501.QAA08913 at todday.aiai.ed.ac.uk> from Tim Bradshaw at "May 6, 98 04:01:21 pm"
To: tfb at aiai.ed.ac.uk (Tim Bradshaw)
Date: Wed, 6 May 1998 12:12:37 -0400 (EDT)
Cc: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
I managed to get the Sim23b pdp11 emulator running on the v5 unix.
It is hard to believe a 25K kernel....(:+}}..... so much for code
bloat over the years.
My goal is to try to bring it up on a KSR35 hooked up to a headless
pc (386 board in a closet box) on the dos emulator, or whatever would
be the minimal required to get it going.
Can anyone suggest ways to reach that goal? I am still having no
luck with the Ersatz 2.0 emulator on dos, because I can't seem to
get the incantations right. I get to the @ prompt, but after
entering unix, it just sits for a bit, the HD spins, and after a
few seconds it is back at the @ prompt. There is still some magick
mystical juju required (albeit I am the dummy here....(:+\\.....)
I could port a stripped Linux 0.98 kernel maybe, to get it up,
and try that, but I was hoping the dos emulator would run with it.
Any suggestions and pointers are appreciated.
Thanks, and kudos to all the PUPS crew and Dennis Ritchie for
resurrecting the old v5 image. This kindof makes computing
fun, for a change.....
Now, where did I stash that KSR35.....
Bob Keys.....
Received: (from major at localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA08328
for pups-liszt; Thu, 7 May 1998 02:15:26 +1000 (EST)
Received: from chico.franken.de (dns.franken.de [193.175.24.33])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id CAA08323
for <pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Thu, 7 May 1998 02:15:20 +1000 (EST)
Received: from mbsks.UUCP by chico.franken.de with UUCP
(Smail3.2 #2) id m0yX7D7-005CHzC; Wed, 6 May 1998 18:38:25 +0200 (MET DST)
Received: by mbsks.franken.de (Linux Smail3.1.28.1 #14)
id m0yX7Dl-000HqdC; Wed, 6 May 98 18:39 MET DST
Message-Id: <m0yX7Dl-000HqdC at mbsks.franken.de>
From: m@mbsks.franken.de (Matthias Bruestle)
Subject: Re: Installation of 2.11BSD (II)
In-Reply-To: <19980506163710.A329 at freebie.lemis.com> from Greg Lehey at "May 6, 98 04:37:10 pm"
To: grog at lemis.com (Greg Lehey)
Date: Wed, 6 May 1998 18:39:05 +0200 (MET DST)
Cc: wkt at cs.adfa.oz.au, pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL31 (25)]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
Mahlzeit
According to Greg Lehey:
> Well, I started an answer, and decided that Steven would be able to
> answer better, but since you mention my name, OK, here I am.
Thanks. :)
> > Is this a problem with the distribution, with the emulator or with
> > the compiler (gcc 2.7.2.1)?
> First, the compiler is certainly not gcc. That would never fit in the
The compiler which compiled the emulator is gcc. Log time ago I compiled
someones emulator with gcc 2.5.8 and it did only work without any
optimization.
> nor that it's easy to set up. It took me quite a while. Take a look
> at the files in ftp://ftp.lemis.com/pub/pups. They are:
Fine, I will try it this night or tomorrow.
Thanks
endergone Zwiebeltuete
--
insanity inside
Received: (from major at localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA09143
for pups-liszt; Thu, 7 May 1998 06:20:53 +1000 (EST)
Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id GAA09138
for <pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Thu, 7 May 1998 06:20:48 +1000 (EST)
Received: (from wkt at localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id GAA03625; Thu, 7 May 1998 06:43:56 +1000 (EST)
From: Warren Toomey <wkt@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199805062043.GAA03625 at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Using P11 emulator (was 2.11BSD installation problems)
To: wkt at cs.adfa.oz.au
Date: Thu, 7 May 1998 06:43:56 +1000 (EST)
Cc: m at mbsks.franken.de, pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
In-Reply-To: <199805060638.QAA02895 at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> from Warren Toomey at "May 6, 98 04:38:21 pm"
Reply-To: wkt at cs.adfa.oz.au
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
Matthias,
Here are some instructions on getting that RP disk image working
with the Begemot P11 2.3 emulator. These should supplement Greg's email.
Warren
Running the 2.11BSD RP disk image on the P11 Emulator
Ok, here's how I got P11-2.3 running. Firstly, I extracted the source code
for P11 from the tarball, and built the emulator in the extracted emu
directory. Note: you need lots of virtual memory to build instab.o.
With p11 built, I went into ../run, and copied the following files here:
total 16
-rw------- 1 root wheel 1562 Apr 22 19:56 mon.help
-rw------- 1 root wheel 648 Apr 22 19:55 p11conf
-rw------- 1 root wheel 4096 Dec 12 1994 qna.rom
-rw------- 1 root wheel 512 Apr 22 19:41 rp.boot
All except p11conf came from ../emu. I had a hard time getting the p11conf
configuration file working, what with the cpp path etc. So I basically made
a p11conf file which doesn't use any #defines. Here it is:
libdir = .
ctrl rl 017774400 0160 4 4000
end
ctrl rp 017776700 0254 5 4000
0 /usr/local/src/RP_211bsd_root 12
end
ctrl kl
017777560 060 064 4 ../emu/IOProgs/tty_net -7 -t 10002
017776500 0300 0304 4 ../emu/IOProgs/tty_net -7 -t 10003
end
ctrl mr 017777520 ./rp.boot
end
ctrl lp 017777514 0200 4
end
ctrl tm 017772520 0224 5
end
Note that the emulated RP disk image is at /usr/local/src/RP_211bsd_root.
The number 12 after this is arbitrary, I have no idea what it does.
Now, to run the emulator using the p11conf above from the run directory,
do ../emu/p11 -d &. You can run it in the background as it doesn't require
any keyboard interaction. Then telnet localhost 10002, and hit Return a few
times. You will see:
% telnet localhost 10002
Trying 127.0.0.1...
Connected to localhost.
Escape character is '^]'.
-----
<---- Hit Return once or twice here
: xp(0,0,0)unix
Boot: bootdev=05000 bootcsr=0176700
2.11 BSD UNIX #11: Tue Jan 6 16:57:02 MET 1998
root at pdp11.begemot.com:/usr/src/sys/HIPPON
attaching lo0
phys mem = 2097152
avail mem = 1668352
user mem = 307200
January 8 08:25:02 init: configure system
lp 0 csr 177514 vector 200 attached
rl 0 csr 174400 vector 160 attached
tm 0 csr 172520 vector 224 attached
xp 0 csr 176700 vector 254 attached
cn 1 csr 176500 vector 300 attached
cn 2 csr 176510 vector 310 skipped: No CSR.
cn 3 csr 176520 vector 320 skipped: No CSR.
cn 4 csr 176530 vector 330 skipped: No CSR.
erase, kill ^U, intr ^C
#
That's it!!
Warren
Received: (from major at localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA09164
for pups-liszt; Thu, 7 May 1998 06:26:14 +1000 (EST)
Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id GAA09159
for <pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Thu, 7 May 1998 06:26:11 +1000 (EST)
Received: (from wkt at localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id GAA03699; Thu, 7 May 1998 06:49:24 +1000 (EST)
From: Warren Toomey <wkt@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199805062049.GAA03699 at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Re: First edition Unix manuals
To: tfb at aiai.ed.ac.uk (Tim Bradshaw)
Date: Thu, 7 May 1998 06:49:24 +1000 (EST)
Cc: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation)
In-Reply-To: <199805061501.QAA08913 at todday.aiai.ed.ac.uk> from Tim Bradshaw at "May 6, 98 04:01:21 pm"
Reply-To: wkt at cs.adfa.oz.au
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
In article by Tim Bradshaw:
> In case other people haven't seen this, Dennis Ritchie has (scanned)
> versions of these at:
>
> http://www.cs.bell-labs.com/~dmr
>
> --tim
Thanks Tim!
Warren
Received: (from major at localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA09393
for pups-liszt; Thu, 7 May 1998 07:24:42 +1000 (EST)
Received: from chico.franken.de (dns.franken.de [193.175.24.33])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id HAA09388
for <pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Thu, 7 May 1998 07:24:32 +1000 (EST)
Received: from mbsks.UUCP by chico.franken.de with UUCP
(Smail3.2 #2) id m0yXC2L-005CD5C; Wed, 6 May 1998 23:47:37 +0200 (MET DST)
Received: by mbsks.franken.de (Linux Smail3.1.28.1 #14)
id m0yXC0k-000HqiC; Wed, 6 May 98 23:45 MET DST
Message-Id: <m0yXC0k-000HqiC at mbsks.franken.de>
From: m@mbsks.franken.de (Matthias Bruestle)
Subject: Re: Using P11 emulator (was 2.11BSD installation problems)
In-Reply-To: <199805062043.GAA03625 at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> from Warren Toomey at "May 7, 98 06:43:56 am"
To: wkt at cs.adfa.oz.au
Date: Wed, 6 May 1998 23:45:58 +0200 (MET DST)
Cc: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL31 (25)]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
Mahlzeit
The setup looks more complicated than the supnik emulator. So, I'll
look tomorrow. What I have noticed is, that there is bsdi and freeBSD
mentioned in p11conf but not linux. Does it require a BSD?
Mahlzeit
endergone Zwiebeltuete
--
insanity inside
Received: (from major at localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA09524
for pups-liszt; Thu, 7 May 1998 08:41:02 +1000 (EST)
Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [139.130.136.133] (may be forged))
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA09519
for <pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Thu, 7 May 1998 08:40:56 +1000 (EST)
Received: (from grog at localhost)
by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) id IAA02711;
Thu, 7 May 1998 08:34:16 +0930 (CST)
(envelope-from grog)
Message-ID: <19980507083416.B396 at freebie.lemis.com>
Date: Thu, 7 May 1998 08:34:16 +0930
From: Greg Lehey <grog@lemis.com>
To: Tim Bradshaw <tfb at aiai.ed.ac.uk>, pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: First edition Unix manuals
References: <199805061501.QAA08913 at todday.aiai.ed.ac.uk>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i
In-Reply-To: <199805061501.QAA08913 at todday.aiai.ed.ac.uk>; from Tim Bradshaw on Wed, May 06, 1998 at 04:01:21PM +0100
WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog
Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia
Phone: +61-8-8388-8286
Fax: +61-8-8388-8725
Mobile: +61-41-739-7062
Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
On Wed, 6 May 1998 at 16:01:21 +0100, Tim Bradshaw wrote:
> In case other people haven't seen this, Dennis Ritchie has (scanned)
> versions of these at:
>
> http://www.cs.bell-labs.com/~dmr
Somebody else posted this a few days ago. Does anybody know how to
view them? They're in .gif format, and xv only shows me the first
page.
Greg
--
See complete headers for address and phone numbers
finger grog at lemis.com for PGP public key
Received: (from major at localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA09691
for pups-liszt; Thu, 7 May 1998 09:45:46 +1000 (EST)
Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [139.130.136.133])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA09686
for <pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Thu, 7 May 1998 09:45:40 +1000 (EST)
Received: (from grog at localhost)
by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) id JAA02921;
Thu, 7 May 1998 09:38:50 +0930 (CST)
(envelope-from grog)
Message-ID: <19980507093849.H396 at freebie.lemis.com>
Date: Thu, 7 May 1998 09:38:49 +0930
From: Greg Lehey <grog@lemis.com>
To: wkt at cs.adfa.oz.au
Cc: m at mbsks.franken.de, pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: Using P11 emulator (was 2.11BSD installation problems)
References: <199805060638.QAA02895 at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> <199805062043.GAA03625 at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i
In-Reply-To: <199805062043.GAA03625 at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>; from Warren Toomey on Thu, May 07, 1998 at 06:43:56AM +1000
WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog
Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia
Phone: +61-8-8388-8286
Fax: +61-8-8388-8725
Mobile: +61-41-739-7062
Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
On Thu, 7 May 1998 at 6:43:56 +1000, Warren Toomey wrote:
> Matthias,
> Here are some instructions on getting that RP disk image working
> with the Begemot P11 2.3 emulator. These should supplement Greg's email.
Hey, I thought you were in freezing Tasmania :-)
> Running the 2.11BSD RP disk image on the P11 Emulator
>
> Ok, here's how I got P11-2.3 running. Firstly, I extracted the source code
> for P11 from the tarball, and built the emulator in the extracted emu
> directory. Note: you need lots of virtual memory to build instab.o.
>
> With p11 built, I went into ../run, and copied the following files here:
>
> total 16
> -rw------- 1 root wheel 1562 Apr 22 19:56 mon.help
> -rw------- 1 root wheel 648 Apr 22 19:55 p11conf
> -rw------- 1 root wheel 4096 Dec 12 1994 qna.rom
> -rw------- 1 root wheel 512 Apr 22 19:41 rp.boot
>
> All except p11conf came from ../emu. I had a hard time getting the p11conf
> configuration file working, what with the cpp path etc. So I basically made
> a p11conf file which doesn't use any #defines. Here it is:
>
>
> libdir = .
> ctrl rl 017774400 0160 4 4000
> end
> ctrl rp 017776700 0254 5 4000
> 0 /usr/local/src/RP_211bsd_root 12
> end
> ctrl kl
> 017777560 060 064 4 ../emu/IOProgs/tty_net -7 -t 10002
> 017776500 0300 0304 4 ../emu/IOProgs/tty_net -7 -t 10003
> end
> ctrl mr 017777520 ./rp.boot
> end
> ctrl lp 017777514 0200 4
> end
> ctrl tm 017772520 0224 5
> end
>
> Note that the emulated RP disk image is at /usr/local/src/RP_211bsd_root.
> The number 12 after this is arbitrary, I have no idea what it does.
>
> Now, to run the emulator using the p11conf above from the run directory,
> do ../emu/p11 -d &. You can run it in the background as it doesn't require
> any keyboard interaction. Then telnet localhost 10002, and hit Return a few
> times. You will see:
In fact, you can use any port from 10000 to 10003. They map to
/dev/console and /dev/ttyl1 through /dev/ttyl3 (though for some reason
/etc/ttys doesn't contain entries for the latter two).
>> telnet localhost 10002
> Trying 127.0.0.1...
> Connected to localhost.
> Escape character is '^]'.
> -----
> <---- Hit Return once or twice here
> : xp(0,0,0)unix
> Boot: bootdev=05000 bootcsr=0176700
>
> 2.11 BSD UNIX #11: Tue Jan 6 16:57:02 MET 1998
> root at pdp11.begemot.com:/usr/src/sys/HIPPON
>
> attaching lo0
>
> phys mem = 2097152
> avail mem = 1668352
> user mem = 307200
>
> January 8 08:25:02 init: configure system
>
> lp 0 csr 177514 vector 200 attached
> rl 0 csr 174400 vector 160 attached
> tm 0 csr 172520 vector 224 attached
> xp 0 csr 176700 vector 254 attached
> cn 1 csr 176500 vector 300 attached
> cn 2 csr 176510 vector 310 skipped: No CSR.
> cn 3 csr 176520 vector 320 skipped: No CSR.
> cn 4 csr 176530 vector 330 skipped: No CSR.
> erase, kill ^U, intr ^C
> #
>
> That's it!!
Well, no, at this point you're in single-user mode. To continue,
enter ^D:
# Fast boot ... skipping disk checks
checking quotas: done.
Assuming NETWORKING system ...
add host 192.109.197.211: gateway 127.1
add net default: gateway freebie.lemis.com
starting system logger
preserving editor files
clearing /tmp
standard daemons: update cron accounting.
starting network daemons: inetd rwhod printer.
starting local daemons:.
Wed May 6 10:45:41 CST 1998
May 6 10:45:42 pdp11 init: kernel security level changed from 0 to 1
2.11 BSD UNIX (pdp11.lemis.com) (console)
login:
I've forgotten what the standard password on root is; I fear it has
*not* been removed. It could be 'begemot' or 'begemot1'. To change
it, you will need to rebuild passwd, which will not work otherwise.
Do that in /usr/src/bin/passwd. If you have trouble, I can send you a
passwd binary.
Greg
--
See complete headers for address and phone numbers
finger grog at lemis.com for PGP public key
Received: (from major at localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA09714
for pups-liszt; Thu, 7 May 1998 09:53:29 +1000 (EST)
Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [139.130.136.133])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA09709
for <pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Thu, 7 May 1998 09:53:24 +1000 (EST)
Received: (from grog at localhost)
by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) id JAA02935;
Thu, 7 May 1998 09:46:41 +0930 (CST)
(envelope-from grog)
Message-ID: <19980507094640.I396 at freebie.lemis.com>
Date: Thu, 7 May 1998 09:46:40 +0930
From: Greg Lehey <grog@lemis.com>
To: Matthias Bruestle <m at mbsks.franken.de>, wkt at cs.adfa.oz.au
Cc: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: Using P11 emulator (was 2.11BSD installation problems)
References: <199805062043.GAA03625 at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> <m0yXC0k-000HqiC at mbsks.franken.de>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i
In-Reply-To: <m0yXC0k-000HqiC at mbsks.franken.de>; from Matthias Bruestle on Wed, May 06, 1998 at 11:45:58PM +0200
WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog
Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia
Phone: +61-8-8388-8286
Fax: +61-8-8388-8725
Mobile: +61-41-739-7062
Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
On Wed, 6 May 1998 at 23:45:58 +0200, Matthias Bruestle wrote:
> Mahlzeit
Mahlzeit (*r�lps*)
> The setup looks more complicated than the supnik emulator. So, I'll
> look tomorrow. What I have noticed is, that there is bsdi and freeBSD
> mentioned in p11conf but not linux. Does it require a BSD?
Yes, I think so. The access to the machine goes via the tunnel
driver, and that would need to be completed for Linux. The authors
don't use Linux, so they haven't done the work. They don't use BSD/OS
much any more, so if you are going to install one, FreeBSD is the
obvious choice, especially considering the price differential.
Of course, any old UNIX user should be using BSD anyway, especially if
you want to emulate older BSDs :-)
Greg
--
See complete headers for address and phone numbers
finger grog at lemis.com for PGP public key
Received: (from major at localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA09778
for pups-liszt; Thu, 7 May 1998 10:22:35 +1000 (EST)
Received: from renoir.op.net (root at renoir.op.net [209.152.193.4])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA09773
for <pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Thu, 7 May 1998 10:22:28 +1000 (EST)
Received: from goppelt.op.net (d-phlarc1-02.ppp.op.net [209.152.199.66]) by renoir.op.net (o1/$Revision: 1.16 $) with SMTP id UAA04653 for <pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Wed, 6 May 1998 20:45:44 -0400 (EDT)
Message-Id: <199805070045.UAA04653 at renoir.op.net>
Comments: Authenticated sender is <edgee at cyberpass.net>
From: "Ed G." <edgee@cyberpass.net>
To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Date: Wed, 6 May 1998 20:45:41 -0400
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT
Subject: Floating Point-The Results Are In!
Reply-to: edgee at cyberpass.net
X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.54)
Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
Using a new approach, I have re-counted the number of floating point
operations for the utilities contained in Unix's bin directory.
According to my results, many important 7th Edition programs such as
adb, awk and tar make heavy use of floating point on the PDP-11.
As you know, my first approach was to simple-mindedly examine every
word of a given program's disk image to come up with an estimate of
the number of floating point operations used by the program.
I would like to thank those who pointed out the shortcoming of this
approach and offered valuable advice on how to achieve my aim of
accurate counts. Based on these comments, I decided to create a
full fledged disassembler for the PDP-11.
I have tested my program and believe it produces an exact count of
all floating point operations.
In case you're interested in how my initial estimates compare with
the new, precise counts, I list those data below as well.
New Approach.
uv7 bin directory
Programs using 10 or more floating point ops.
graph 674
awk 657
spline 389
sa 300
prof 260
iostat 243
t450 222
t300 222
t300s 212
vplot 187
tek 185
adb 128
units 118
random 116
xsend 106
xget 106
tsort 106
tar 106
refer 106
quot 106
nroff 88
factor 88
ac 88
primes 78
poke6 62
lex 51
roff 32
as 18
Old Approach.
uv7 bin directory
Programs using 100 or more floating point ops.
awk 2540
refer 1644
xsend 1326
tbl 1315
graph 1300
xget 1288
adb 1152
eqn 918
enroll 915
neqn 874
nroff 841
make 822
spline 812
yacc 789
sa 714
tar 706
lex 628
tek 618
prof 608
t300s 604
dc 601
vplot 582
iostat 579
t300 576
t450 574
em 530
bc 509
ratfor 474
quot 452
tsort 407
sh 381
expr 380
units 379
ac 365
sort 358
ps 327
restor 323
rmail 321
ed 321
mail 321
ptx 320
egrep 313
ls 310
ps.old 306
m4 304
random 298
su 296
tp 285
ops 282
cu 282
diff 277
pr 275
poke6 275
sed 267
find 267
dump 261
deroff 255
icheck 251
ls.11 249
ld 246
login 240
cptree 230
passwd 227
login.old 218
cc 210
prep 205
at 203
dumpdir 197
join 196
wc 193
tc 192
nm 191
pstat 190
file 187
pr.old 186
crypt 182
date 181
grep 180
ranlib 174
fgrep 172
ncheck 159
checkeq 157
du 155
who 152
as 152
od 151
look 149
roff 149
ar 146
vpr 144
dd 141
tk 141
time 139
rm 138
cb 134
mv 134
comm 133
newgrp 133
dcheck 132
factor 132
rmdir 125
write 125
primes 124
cmp 121
dfOLD 120
df 120
size 117
v6sh 116
vcopy 113
nice 113
col 110
ln 106
sum 105
clri 104
cat 103
tail 103
sleep 101
Received: (from major at localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA09917
for pups-liszt; Thu, 7 May 1998 11:14:32 +1000 (EST)
Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [139.130.136.133])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA09912
for <pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Thu, 7 May 1998 11:14:26 +1000 (EST)
Received: (from grog at localhost)
by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) id LAA21487;
Thu, 7 May 1998 11:07:24 +0930 (CST)
(envelope-from grog)
Message-ID: <19980507110724.M396 at freebie.lemis.com>
Date: Thu, 7 May 1998 11:07:24 +0930
From: Greg Lehey <grog@lemis.com>
To: edgee at cyberpass.net, pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: Floating Point-The Results Are In!
References: <199805070045.UAA04653 at renoir.op.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i
In-Reply-To: <199805070045.UAA04653 at renoir.op.net>; from Ed G. on Wed, May 06, 1998 at 08:45:41PM -0400
WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog
Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia
Phone: +61-8-8388-8286
Fax: +61-8-8388-8725
Mobile: +61-41-739-7062
Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
On Wed, 6 May 1998 at 20:45:41 -0400, Ed G. wrote:
> Using a new approach, I have re-counted the number of floating point
> operations for the utilities contained in Unix's bin directory.
> According to my results, many important 7th Edition programs such as
> adb, awk and tar make heavy use of floating point on the PDP-11.
I'll believe this when you pinpoint the instructions.
Greg
--
See complete headers for address and phone numbers
finger grog at lemis.com for PGP public key
Received: (from major at localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA10926
for pups-liszt; Thu, 7 May 1998 18:33:08 +1000 (EST)
Received: from red.csi.cam.ac.uk (exim at red.csi.cam.ac.uk [131.111.8.70])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA10921
for <pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Thu, 7 May 1998 18:32:59 +1000 (EST)
Received: from afrb2 (helo=localhost)
by red.csi.cam.ac.uk with local-smtp (Exim 1.92 #1)
for pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
id 0yXMSf-0002FS-00; Thu, 7 May 1998 09:55:29 +0100
Date: Thu, 7 May 1998 09:55:29 +0100 (BST)
From: Alan Bain <afrb2@hermes.cam.ac.uk>
X-Sender: afrb2 at red.csi.cam.ac.uk
To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: Floating Point-The Results Are In!
In-Reply-To: <19980507110724.M396 at freebie.lemis.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.95q.980507095248.5706A-100000 at red.csi.cam.ac.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
On Thu, 7 May 1998, Greg Lehey wrote:
> On Wed, 6 May 1998 at 20:45:41 -0400, Ed G. wrote:
> > Using a new approach, I have re-counted the number of floating point
> > operations for the utilities contained in Unix's bin directory.
> > According to my results, many important 7th Edition programs such as
> > adb, awk and tar make heavy use of floating point on the PDP-11.
>
> I'll believe this when you pinpoint the instructions.
>
According to my paper copy of the UV7 manual, it is possible to run V7 on
a machine with no floating point, and the main problem is when compiling
say numeric code. There's a short section on how to do a build if you
don't have fp (like me on my 11/34). I think the V7 manual may well be
on line; but if not I can do a Xerox of this if it would be useful,
Alan Bain
Received: (from major at localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA10996
for pups-liszt; Thu, 7 May 1998 19:00:04 +1000 (EST)
Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [139.130.136.133])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA10988
for <pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Thu, 7 May 1998 18:59:58 +1000 (EST)
Received: (from grog at localhost)
by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) id SAA14397;
Thu, 7 May 1998 18:53:07 +0930 (CST)
(envelope-from grog)
Message-ID: <19980507185306.I12200 at freebie.lemis.com>
Date: Thu, 7 May 1998 18:53:06 +0930
From: Greg Lehey <grog@lemis.com>
To: Alan Bain <afrb2 at hermes.cam.ac.uk>, pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: Floating Point-The Results Are In!
References: <19980507110724.M396 at freebie.lemis.com> <Pine.SOL.3.95q.980507095248.5706A-100000 at red.csi.cam.ac.uk>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.3.95q.980507095248.5706A-100000 at red.csi.cam.ac.uk>; from Alan Bain on Thu, May 07, 1998 at 09:55:29AM +0100
WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog
Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia
Phone: +61-8-8388-8286
Fax: +61-8-8388-8725
Mobile: +61-41-739-7062
Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
On Thu, 7 May 1998 at 9:55:29 +0100, Alan Bain wrote:
> On Thu, 7 May 1998, Greg Lehey wrote:
>
>> On Wed, 6 May 1998 at 20:45:41 -0400, Ed G. wrote:
>>> Using a new approach, I have re-counted the number of floating point
>>> operations for the utilities contained in Unix's bin directory.
>>> According to my results, many important 7th Edition programs such as
>>> adb, awk and tar make heavy use of floating point on the PDP-11.
>>
>> I'll believe this when you pinpoint the instructions.
>>
> According to my paper copy of the UV7 manual, it is possible to run V7 on
> a machine with no floating point, and the main problem is when compiling
> say numeric code. There's a short section on how to do a build if you
> don't have fp (like me on my 11/34). I think the V7 manual may well be
> on line; but if not I can do a Xerox of this if it would be useful,
The Seventh Edition manuals are available in a number of places,
including of course the PUPS archive, but dmr has also put them on the
web at http://plan9.bell-labs.com/7thEdMan/index.html.
Greg
--
See complete headers for address and phone numbers
finger grog at lemis.com for PGP public key
Received: (from major at localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA11609
for pups-liszt; Thu, 7 May 1998 22:45:50 +1000 (EST)
Received: from seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu (seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu [152.1.88.4])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA11603
for <pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Thu, 7 May 1998 22:45:44 +1000 (EST)
Received: (from rdkeys at localhost)
by seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA02117;
Thu, 7 May 1998 09:05:02 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Robert D. Keys" <rdkeys@seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu>
Message-Id: <199805071305.JAA02117 at seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu>
Subject: Re: First edition Unix manuals
In-Reply-To: <19980507083416.B396 at freebie.lemis.com> from Greg Lehey at "May 7, 98 08:34:16 am"
To: grog at lemis.com (Greg Lehey)
Date: Thu, 7 May 1998 09:05:02 -0400 (EDT)
Cc: tfb at aiai.ed.ac.uk, pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
> On Wed, 6 May 1998 at 16:01:21 +0100, Tim Bradshaw wrote:
> > In case other people haven't seen this, Dennis Ritchie has (scanned)
> > versions of these at:
> >
> > http://www.cs.bell-labs.com/~dmr
>
> Somebody else posted this a few days ago. Does anybody know how to
> view them? They're in .gif format, and xv only shows me the first
> page.
>
> Greg
He put up postscript versions, too.
I emailed him about the possibility of recreating the roff sources,
an I will probably wind up doing that. Then we will have a working
set of sources for clean copy.
Bob Keys
Received: (from major at localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA13158
for pups-liszt; Fri, 8 May 1998 08:42:43 +1000 (EST)
Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [139.130.136.133])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA13153
for <pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Fri, 8 May 1998 08:42:37 +1000 (EST)
Received: (from grog at localhost)
by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) id IAA16737;
Fri, 8 May 1998 08:32:36 +0930 (CST)
(envelope-from grog)
Message-ID: <19980508083236.N12200 at freebie.lemis.com>
Date: Fri, 8 May 1998 08:32:36 +0930
From: Greg Lehey <grog@lemis.com>
To: "Robert D. Keys" <rdkeys at seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu>
Cc: tfb at aiai.ed.ac.uk, pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: First edition Unix manuals
References: <19980507083416.B396 at freebie.lemis.com> <199805071305.JAA02117 at seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i
In-Reply-To: <199805071305.JAA02117 at seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu>; from Robert D. Keys on Thu, May 07, 1998 at 09:05:02AM -0400
WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog
Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia
Phone: +61-8-8388-8286
Fax: +61-8-8388-8725
Mobile: +61-41-739-7062
Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
On Thu, 7 May 1998 at 9:05:02 -0400, Robert D. Keys wrote:
>> On Wed, 6 May 1998 at 16:01:21 +0100, Tim Bradshaw wrote:
>>> In case other people haven't seen this, Dennis Ritchie has (scanned)
>>> versions of these at:
>>>
>>> http://www.cs.bell-labs.com/~dmr
>>
>> Somebody else posted this a few days ago. Does anybody know how to
>> view them? They're in .gif format, and xv only shows me the first
>> page.
>>
>> Greg
>
> He put up postscript versions, too.
I don't see them at
http://cm.bell-labs.com/cm/cs/who/dmr/1stEdman.html. Where are they?
> I emailed him about the possibility of recreating the roff sources,
> an I will probably wind up doing that. Then we will have a working
> set of sources for clean copy.
Great idea. Keep us posted.
Greg
--
See complete headers for address and phone numbers
finger grog at lemis.com for PGP public key
Received: (from major at localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA14100
for pups-liszt; Fri, 8 May 1998 13:52:44 +1000 (EST)
Received: from renoir.op.net (root at renoir.op.net [209.152.193.4])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA14094
for <pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Fri, 8 May 1998 13:52:36 +1000 (EST)
Received: from goppelt.op.net (d-phlarc1-01.ppp.op.net [209.152.199.65]) by renoir.op.net (o1/$Revision: 1.17 $) with SMTP id AAA28438; Fri, 8 May 1998 00:14:04 -0400 (EDT)
Message-Id: <199805080414.AAA28438 at renoir.op.net>
Comments: Authenticated sender is <edgee at cyberpass.net>
From: "Ed G." <edgee@cyberpass.net>
To: Greg Lehey <grog at lemis.com>
Date: Fri, 8 May 1998 00:14:03 -0400
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-type: Multipart/Mixed; boundary=Message-Boundary-293
Subject: Re: Floating Point-The Results Are In!
Reply-to: edgee at cyberpass.net
CC: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
In-reply-to: <19980507110724.M396 at freebie.lemis.com>
References: <199805070045.UAA04653 at renoir.op.net>; from Ed G. on Wed, May 06, 1998 at 08:45:41PM -0400
X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.54)
Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
--Message-Boundary-293
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT
Content-description: Mail message body
> I'll believe this when you pinpoint the instructions.
Your skepticism spurred me to examine a Unix utility in depth to see
whether my results hold up. They do.
According to my count, tar uses 106 floating point operations. Here
are the first few. The complete list, tar3.txt, is attached as
well for your perusal. If you'd like to look at the complete
disassembled code for tar, let me know.
[root at oskar uv7]# ../dis/disuv7.pl < tar | grep ';17'
file header: 410 37400 4254 27422 20270 0 0 1
read 16128 bytes
prog string is 16128 bytes
0: SETD ;170011
20532: STCFD F0,(R1) ;176011
20562: STF F0,(R1) ;174011
22406: LDF F0,(R4)+ ;172424
22410: STF F0,-(SP) ;174046
22460: LDF F0,(R4)+ ;172424
22462: STF F0,-(SP) ;174046
22620: LDF F0,(R4)+ ;172424
22622: STF F0,-(SP) ;174046
24124: LDF F0,4(R5) ;172465 000004
24130: STF F0,-(SP) ;174046
26616: LDF F0,#56200 ;172427 056200
I chose tar as an example because it is an important utility and
because it is a relatively heavy user of floating point (as guaged
by the number of floating point ops contained in tar).
The following routines in 7th Edition tar appear to use floating
point:
~_filbuf
~_innum
~atof
~cvt
~ecvt
~fcvt
~gcvt
~isatty
~main
~mktemp
The addresses of these routines, as listed in tar's symbol
table--see attached file symlisttar.txt--correspond to those of the
disassembled floating point ops in tar.
I've learned a lot while responding to the criticisms offered by you
and others on this list. Thank you.
Ed
--Message-Boundary-293
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT
Content-description: Text from file 'TAR3.TXT'
[root at oskar uv7]# ../dis/disuv7.pl < tar | grep ';17'
file header: 410 37400 4254 27422 20270 0 0 1
read 16128 bytes
prog string is 16128 bytes
0: SETD ;170011
20532: STCFD F0,(R1) ;176011
20562: STF F0,(R1) ;174011
22406: LDF F0,(R4)+ ;172424
22410: STF F0,-(SP) ;174046
22460: LDF F0,(R4)+ ;172424
22462: STF F0,-(SP) ;174046
22620: LDF F0,(R4)+ ;172424
22622: STF F0,-(SP) ;174046
24124: LDF F0,4(R5) ;172465 000004
24130: STF F0,-(SP) ;174046
26616: LDF F0,#56200 ;172427 056200
26622: STF F0,177732(R5) ;174065 177732
26676: CLRF 177762(R5) ;170465 177762
26710: LDF F0,177762(R5) ;172465 177762
26714: CMPF F0,177732(R5) ;173465 177732
26720: CFCC ;170000
26724: LDF F0,#41040 ;172427 041040
26730: MULF F0,177762(R5) ;171065 177762
26742: LDCIF F1,R1 ;177101
26744: ADDF F0,F1 ;172001
26746: STF F0,177762(R5) ;174065 177762
27006: LDF F0,177762(R5) ;172465 177762
27012: CMPF F0,177732(R5) ;173465 177732
27016: CFCC ;170000
27022: LDF F0,#41040 ;172427 041040
27026: MULF F0,177762(R5) ;171065 177762
27040: LDCIF F1,R1 ;177101
27042: ADDF F0,F1 ;172001
27044: STF F0,177762(R5) ;174065 177762
27304: CLRF 177762(R5) ;170465 177762
27314: LDF F0,#40200 ;172427 040200
27320: STF F0,177752(R5) ;174065 177752
27324: LDF F0,#40640 ;172427 040640
27330: STF F0,177742(R5) ;174065 177742
27344: LDF F0,177742(R5) ;172465 177742
27350: MULF F0,F0 ;171000
27352: STF F0,177742(R5) ;174065 177742
27366: LDF F0,177752(R5) ;172465 177752
27372: MULF F0,177742(R5) ;171065 177742
27376: STF F0,177752(R5) ;174065 177752
27422: LDF F0,177762(R5) ;172465 177762
27426: DIVF F0,177752(R5) ;174465 177752
27434: LDF F0,177762(R5) ;172465 177762
27440: MULF F0,177752(R5) ;171065 177752
27444: STF F0,177762(R5) ;174065 177762
27462: LDF F0,177762(R5) ;172465 177762
27466: STF F0,-(SP) ;174046
27500: STF F0,177762(R5) ;174065 177762
27512: NEGF F0 ;170700
27514: STF F0,177762(R5) ;174065 177762
27520: LDF F0,177762(R5) ;172465 177762
32720: LDF F0,4(R5) ;172465 000004
32724: STF F0,-(SP) ;174046
32764: LDF F0,4(R5) ;172465 000004
32770: STF F0,-(SP) ;174046
33060: CLRF F0 ;170400
33062: CMPF F0,4(R5) ;173465 000004
33066: CFCC ;170000
33100: LDF F0,4(R5) ;172465 000004
33104: NEGF F0 ;170700
33106: STF F0,4(R5) ;174065 000004
33120: LDF F0,4(R5) ;172465 000004
33124: STF F0,-(SP) ;174046
33136: STF F0,4(R5) ;174065 000004
33146: CLRF F0 ;170400
33150: CMPF F0,177762(R5) ;173465 177762
33154: CFCC ;170000
33160: CLRF F0 ;170400
33162: CMPF F0,4(R5) ;173465 000004
33166: CFCC ;170000
33202: LDF F0,177762(R5) ;172465 177762
33206: DIVF F0,#41040 ;174427 041040
33212: STF F0,-(SP) ;174046
33224: STF F0,177752(R5) ;174065 177752
33230: ADDF F0,43662 ;172067 010426
33234: MULF F0,#41040 ;171027 041040
33240: STCFI F0,R0 ;175400
33252: CLRF F0 ;170400
33254: CMPF F0,177762(R5) ;173465 177762
33260: CFCC ;170000
33276: LDF F0,177752(R5) ;172465 177752
33302: STF F0,4(R5) ;174065 000004
33310: LDF F0,4(R5) ;172465 000004
33314: MULF F0,#41040 ;171027 041040
33320: STF F0,177752(R5) ;174065 177752
33324: CMPF F0,#40200 ;173427 040200
33330: CFCC ;170000
33414: LDF F0,4(R5) ;172465 000004
33420: MULF F0,#41040 ;171027 041040
33424: STF F0,4(R5) ;174065 000004
33436: LDF F0,4(R5) ;172465 000004
33442: STF F0,-(SP) ;174046
33454: STF F0,4(R5) ;174065 000004
33460: LDF F0,177752(R5) ;172465 177752
33464: STCFI F0,R0 ;175400
33666: LDF F0,4(R5) ;172465 000004
33672: STEXP F0,R0 ;175000
33700: LDEXP F0,R0 ;176400
33702: CFCC ;170000
33710: LDF F0,43672 ;172467 007756
33716: LDF F0,43672 ;172467 007750
33722: NEGF F0 ;170700
34112: LDF F0,4(R5) ;172465 000004
34116: MODF F0,#40200 ;171427 040200
34122: STF F1, at 14(R5) ;174175 000014
[root at oskar uv7]#
--Message-Boundary-293
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT
Content-description: Text from file 'symlisttar.txt'
~main~usage~dorep~endtape=003004
~getdir~passtap=003414
~putfile=003566
~doxtrac=005656
~dotable=006776
~putempt=007126
~longt~pmode~select~checkdi=007506
~onintr~onquit~onhup~onterm~tomodes=010132
~checksu=010344
~checkw~respons=010560
~checkup=010750
~done~prefix~getwdir=011302
~lookup~bsrch~cmp~readtap=012704
~writeta=013350
~backtap=013644
~flushta=014044
~copy~freopen=014146
~fseek~rewind~fread~fwrite~system~fopen~scanf~fscanf~sscanf~_doscan=016056
~_innum~_instr~_getccl=021242
~fprintf=021376
~printf~sprintf=021532
~ungetc~_filbuf=022002
~gcvt~_strout=024570
~_flsbuf=025130
~fflush~_cleanu=025702
~fclose~_endope=026072
~create~_findio=026516
~atof~atoi~ctime~localti=027716
~sunday~gmtime~asctime=031220
~dysize~ct_numb=031560
~malloc~free~realloc=032422
~ecvt~fcvt~cvt~isatty~mktemp~stty~gtty~strcat~strcmp~strcpy
--Message-Boundary-293--
Received: (from major at localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA14844
for pups-liszt; Fri, 8 May 1998 19:54:45 +1000 (EST)
Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [139.130.136.133])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA14839
for <pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Fri, 8 May 1998 19:54:38 +1000 (EST)
Received: (from grog at localhost)
by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) id TAA18750;
Fri, 8 May 1998 19:46:16 +0930 (CST)
(envelope-from grog)
Message-ID: <19980508194615.O12200 at freebie.lemis.com>
Date: Fri, 8 May 1998 19:46:15 +0930
From: Greg Lehey <grog@lemis.com>
To: edgee at cyberpass.net
Cc: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: Floating Point-The Results Are In!
References: <199805070045.UAA04653 at renoir.op.net>; <19980507110724.M396 at freebie.lemis.com> <199805080414.AAA28438 at renoir.op.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i
In-Reply-To: <199805080414.AAA28438 at renoir.op.net>; from Ed G. on Fri, May 08, 1998 at 12:14:03AM -0400
WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog
Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia
Phone: +61-8-8388-8286
Fax: +61-8-8388-8725
Mobile: +61-41-739-7062
Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
On Fri, 8 May 1998 at 0:14:03 -0400, Ed G. wrote:
Content-Description: Mail message body
>> I'll believe this when you pinpoint the instructions.
>
> Your skepticism spurred me to examine a Unix utility in depth to see
> whether my results hold up. They do.
>
> According to my count, tar uses 106 floating point operations. Here
> are the first few. The complete list, tar3.txt, is attached as
> well for your perusal. If you'd like to look at the complete
> disassembled code for tar, let me know.
>
> [root at oskar uv7]# ../dis/disuv7.pl < tar | grep ';17'
> file header: 410 37400 4254 27422 20270 0 0 1
> read 16128 bytes
> prog string is 16128 bytes
> 0: SETD ;170011
> 20532: STCFD F0,(R1) ;176011
> 20562: STF F0,(R1) ;174011
> 22406: LDF F0,(R4)+ ;172424
> 22410: STF F0,-(SP) ;174046
> 22460: LDF F0,(R4)+ ;172424
> 22462: STF F0,-(SP) ;174046
> 22620: LDF F0,(R4)+ ;172424
> 22622: STF F0,-(SP) ;174046
> 24124: LDF F0,4(R5) ;172465 000004
> 24130: STF F0,-(SP) ;174046
> 26616: LDF F0,#56200 ;172427 056200
>
> I chose tar as an example because it is an important utility and
> because it is a relatively heavy user of floating point (as guaged
> by the number of floating point ops contained in tar).
I don't know what the code above is intended to do, but it's not
floating point. At the very best, it would indicate the use of the
floating point registers for straightforward data moves. I stand by
my assertion that tar doesn't use floating point, neither in the
Seventh Edition nor elsewhere.
For the fun of it, I took the source of tar from the Seventh Edition
(/usr/src/cmd/tar/tar.c) and compiled it on 2.11BSD. I had some minor
compilation problems due to different directory structures, which I
solved by #ifdefing out the following code:
#if 0
for (j=0; j < DIRSIZ; j++)
*cp2++ = dbuf.d_name[j];
*cp2 = '\0';
close(infile);
putfile(buf, cp);
infile = open(".", 0);
i++;
lseek(infile, (long) (sizeof(dbuf) * i), 0);
#endif
I think we can agree that they don't contain FP code. Here are some
results:
[23] root--> cc -n -s -O tar.c -S
[24] root--> grep -i ldf tar.s
[25] root--> grep -i mul tar.s
> The following routines in 7th Edition tar appear to use floating
> point:
>
>> _filbuf
>> _innum
>> atof
>> cvt
>> ecvt
>> fcvt
>> gcvt
>> isatty
>> main
>> mktemp
atof, cvt, ecvt, fcvt and gcvt are conversion routines which use
floating point, so I can agree that they would contain FP code which,
however, would not be used. isatty is a library routine which is
simple enough to quote:
/*
* Returns 1 iff file is a tty
*/
#include <sgtty.h>
isatty(f)
{
struct sgttyb ttyb;
if (gtty(f, &ttyb) < 0)
return(0);
return(1);
}
Evidently there's no FP code there.
It's fun to go looking for things like this. But never trust
anything, especially not your own judgement, until you have a couple
of different ways to prove it. You have the sources there; go ahead
and check them out.
Greg
--
See complete headers for address and phone numbers
finger grog at lemis.com for PGP public key
Received: (from major at localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA15293
for pups-liszt; Fri, 8 May 1998 23:10:26 +1000 (EST)
Received: from seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu (seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu [152.1.88.4])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA15288
for <pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Fri, 8 May 1998 23:10:19 +1000 (EST)
Received: (from rdkeys at localhost)
by seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA03767;
Fri, 8 May 1998 09:28:40 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Robert D. Keys" <rdkeys@seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu>
Message-Id: <199805081328.JAA03767 at seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu>
Subject: Re: First edition Unix manuals
In-Reply-To: <19980508083236.N12200 at freebie.lemis.com> from Greg Lehey at "May 8, 98 08:32:36 am"
To: grog at lemis.com (Greg Lehey)
Date: Fri, 8 May 1998 09:28:40 -0400 (EDT)
Cc: tfb at aiai.ed.ac.uk, pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
> On Thu, 7 May 1998 at 9:05:02 -0400, Robert D. Keys wrote:
> > I emailed him about the possibility of recreating the roff sources,
> > an I will probably wind up doing that. Then we will have a working
> > set of sources for clean copy.
>
> Great idea. Keep us posted.
>
> Greg
I have the intro and first few manpages of section 1 done so far.
Maybe a week or so and then if someone will proof them. I will
port them in original roff source, and then make a troff set.
Dennis was wanting someone to tackle an html version. Alas, my
html is not so good.
Bob
Received: (from major at localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA15447
for pups-liszt; Fri, 8 May 1998 23:48:43 +1000 (EST)
Received: from red.csi.cam.ac.uk (red.csi.cam.ac.uk [131.111.8.70])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA15435
for <pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Fri, 8 May 1998 23:47:16 +1000 (EST)
Received: from afrb2 (helo=localhost)
by red.csi.cam.ac.uk with local-smtp (Exim 1.92 #1)
id 0yXnpG-00028L-00; Fri, 8 May 1998 15:08:38 +0100
Date: Fri, 8 May 1998 15:08:38 +0100 (BST)
From: Alan Bain <afrb2@hermes.cam.ac.uk>
X-Sender: afrb2 at red.csi.cam.ac.uk
To: "Robert D. Keys" <rdkeys at seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu>
cc: Greg Lehey <grog at lemis.com>, tfb at aiai.ed.ac.uk, pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: First edition Unix manuals
In-Reply-To: <199805081328.JAA03767 at seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.95q.980508150740.5409B-100000 at red.csi.cam.ac.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
On Fri, 8 May 1998, Robert D. Keys wrote:
> > On Thu, 7 May 1998 at 9:05:02 -0400, Robert D. Keys wrote:
> > > I emailed him about the possibility of recreating the roff sources,
> > > an I will probably wind up doing that. Then we will have a working
> > > set of sources for clean copy.
> >
> > Great idea. Keep us posted.
> >
> > Greg
>
> I have the intro and first few manpages of section 1 done so far.
> Maybe a week or so and then if someone will proof them. I will
> port them in original roff source, and then make a troff set.
> Dennis was wanting someone to tackle an html version. Alas, my
> html is not so good.
>
It shouldn't be that hard to make HTML directly from the roff source (I
could probably be persuaded to do something like this, given the roff
source first of course!)
Alan Bain
Received: (from major at localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA15594
for pups-liszt; Sat, 9 May 1998 00:14:37 +1000 (EST)
Received: from aiai.ed.ac.uk (eigg.aiai.ed.ac.uk [129.215.41.7])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA15587
for <pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Sat, 9 May 1998 00:13:57 +1000 (EST)
Received: (from tfb at localhost)
by aiai.ed.ac.uk (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA20682;
Fri, 8 May 1998 15:35:45 +0100 (BST)
Date: Fri, 8 May 1998 15:35:45 +0100 (BST)
Message-Id: <199805081435.PAA20682 at aiai.ed.ac.uk>
From: Tim Bradshaw <tfb@aiai.ed.ac.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
To: "Robert D. Keys" <rdkeys at seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu>
Cc: grog at lemis.com (Greg Lehey), pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: First edition Unix manuals
In-Reply-To: <199805081328.JAA03767 at seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu>
References: <19980508083236.N12200 at freebie.lemis.com>
<199805081328.JAA03767 at seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu>
X-Mailer: VM 6.32 under 19.14 XEmacs Lucid
Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
* Robert D Keys wrote:
> I have the intro and first few manpages of section 1 done so far.
> Maybe a week or so and then if someone will proof them. I will
> port them in original roff source, and then make a troff set.
> Dennis was wanting someone to tackle an html version. Alas, my
> html is not so good.
I could probably manufacture HTML from roff reasonably rapidly,
assuming the originals are vaguely clean. I used to do this for a
living at one piunt (:).
--tim
Received: (from major at localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id DAA16019
for pups-liszt; Sat, 9 May 1998 03:03:10 +1000 (EST)
Received: from gw.aexp.com (gw.aexp.com [205.138.230.66])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id DAA16014
for <pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Sat, 9 May 1998 03:03:03 +1000 (EST)
Received: by gw.aexp.com; id KAA05009; Fri, 8 May 1998 10:24:50 -0700 (MST)
Received: from mailhub1.ec.aexp.com(148.171.243.131) by gw.aexp.com via gwmail (v99)
id xmajh7726; Fri, 8 May 98 10:24:10 -0700
X400-Received: by mta AmexPHXMTA in /c=us/admd=attmail/prmd=amex/; Relayed;
08 May 1998 10:25:16 -0700
X400-Received: by /c=us/admd=attmail/prmd=amex/; Relayed;
08 May 1998 10:25:16 -0700
X400-MTS-Identifier: [/c=us/admd=attmail/prmd=amex/; 0D35C35533FFC066-AmexPHXMTA]
Content-Identifier: 0D35C35533FFC066
Content-Return: Allowed
X400-Content-Type: P2-1988 ( 22 )
Conversion: Allowed
Original-Encoded-Information-Types: IA5-Text
Disclose-Recipients: Prohibited
Alternate-Recipient: Allowed
X400-Originator: Jason.Stevens at aexp.com
X400-Recipients: non-disclosure;
Message-Id:
<0D35C35533FFC066*/c=us/admd=attmail/prmd=amex/o=trs/ou=HUB1/ou=AMEX/s=Stevens/g=Jason/@MHS>
Date: 08 May 1998 10:25:16 -0700
From: Jason Stevens <Jason.Stevens@aexp.com>
To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (Return requested)
Subject: Re: Floating Point-The Results Are In!
MIME-Version: 1.0
Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
Could it be possible that all the floating point calls are part of the crt.0
initialization libs?! They may be in there as part of a initialization
routeen to detect a fp, and use it if it's there, although I really doubt tar
would really need an fp call at all.. It sounds like some kind of generic
startup thing.. Unfortunatly I don't have any source to anything at the
moment... If anyone wants to dive check the startup libs... Oh well until
then, I'm just waiting for SCO to send me my no.. :)
TTYL!
Jason
Received: (from major at localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA19024
for pups-liszt; Sun, 10 May 1998 00:52:46 +1000 (EST)
Received: from jacobs.Geeks.ORG (vmailer at jacobs.Geeks.ORG [209.98.1.1])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA19018
for <pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Sun, 10 May 1998 00:52:40 +1000 (EST)
Received: by jacobs.Geeks.ORG (VMailer, from userid 403)
id 3780A0D9A; Sat, 9 May 1998 10:14:19 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: First edition Unix manuals
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.3.95q.980508150740.5409B-100000 at red.csi.cam.ac.uk> from Alan Bain at "May 8, 98 03:08:38 pm"
To: afrb2 at hermes.cam.ac.uk (Alan Bain)
Date: Sat, 9 May 1998 10:14:19 -0500 (CDT)
Cc: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Message-Id: <19980509151419.3780A0D9A at jacobs.Geeks.ORG>
From: merlyn@Geeks.ORG (Doug McIntyre)
Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
> On Fri, 8 May 1998, Robert D. Keys wrote:
>>> On Thu, 7 May 1998 at 9:05:02 -0400, Robert D. Keys wrote:
>>>> I emailed him about the possibility of recreating the roff sources,
>>>> an I will probably wind up doing that. Then we will have a working
>>>> set of sources for clean copy.
>>>
>>> Great idea. Keep us posted.
>>>
>>> Greg
>>
>> I have the intro and first few manpages of section 1 done so far.
>> Maybe a week or so and then if someone will proof them. I will
>> port them in original roff source, and then make a troff set.
>> Dennis was wanting someone to tackle an html version. Alas, my
>> html is not so good.
>>
> It shouldn't be that hard to make HTML directly from the roff source (I
> could probably be persuaded to do something like this, given the roff
> source first of course!)
Or use programs written already to do that, like RosettaMan (at least
I still call it that, the author changed its name). Here's a blurb
from its announcement.
:: PolyglotMan (nee RosettaMan) is a filter for UNIX manual pages. It
:: takes as input man pages for a variety of UNIX flavors and produces as
:: output a variety of file formats. Currently PolyglotMan accepts man
:: pages from the following flavors of UNIX: Hewlett-Packard HP-UX, AT&T
:: System V, SunOS, Sun Solaris, OSF/1, DEC Ultrix, SGI IRIX, Linux, SCO,
:: FreeBSD; and produces output for the following formats: printable
:: ASCII only (stripping page headers and footers), section and
:: subsection headers only, TkMan, [tn]roff, RTF, SGML (soon--I finally
:: found a DTD), HTML, MIME, LaTeX, LaTeX 2e, Perl 5's pod. Previously
:: <I>PolyglotMan</I> required pages to be formatted by nroff prior to
:: its processing; with version 3.0, it prefers [tn]roff source and
:: usually can produce results that are better yet.
::
:: PolyglotMan improves upon other man page filters in several ways: (1) its
:: analysis recognizes the structural pieces of man pages, enabling high
:: quality output, (2) its modular structure permits easy augmentation of
:: output formats, (3) it accepts man pages formatted with the variant
:: macros of many different flavors of UNIX, and (4) it doesn't require
:: modification of or cooperation with any other program.
:: The home location for PolyglotMan is ftp.cs.berkeley.edu:
:: /ucb/people/phelps/tcltk/rman.tar.Z (this is a softlink to the latest,
:: numbered version). If you discover a bug and you obtained PolyglotMan
:: at some other site, first grab it from this one to see if the problem
:: has been fixed.
This is only for man pages, but probably could take the papers in ms
format and give a rough translation, or hack up polyglotman some to do
ms as well..
Received: (from major at localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA19189
for pups-liszt; Sun, 10 May 1998 01:43:48 +1000 (EST)
Received: from renoir.op.net (root at renoir.op.net [209.152.193.4])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA19184
for <pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Sun, 10 May 1998 01:43:42 +1000 (EST)
Received: from goppelt.op.net (d-phlarc2-0f.ppp.op.net [209.152.199.111]) by renoir.op.net (o1/$Revision: 1.17 $) with SMTP id MAA00978 for <pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Sat, 9 May 1998 12:04:55 -0400 (EDT)
Message-Id: <199805091604.MAA00978 at renoir.op.net>
Comments: Authenticated sender is <edgee at cyberpass.net>
From: "Ed G." <edgee@cyberpass.net>
To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Date: Sat, 9 May 1998 12:04:55 -0400
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT
Subject: Visible Front End-advice?
Reply-to: edgee at cyberpass.net
X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.54)
Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
I'd like to write a visible front end for Bob's emulator, but I'm not
sure how to go about doing it. What I'd like is another window that
shows the state of the emulator--PC, SP, MMR etc.--in real time.
Any suggestions/ideas?
TIA
Ed
Received: (from major at localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA19863
for pups-liszt; Sun, 10 May 1998 06:21:19 +1000 (EST)
Received: from serv1.is4.u-net.net (hme0.serv1.is4.u-net.net [195.102.240.153])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id GAA19858
for <pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Sun, 10 May 1998 06:21:12 +1000 (EST)
Received: from indy.dunnington.york.ac.uk [195.102.197.32]
by serv1.is4.u-net.net with smtp (Exim 1.73 #1)
id 0yYGRc-0007QI-00; Sat, 9 May 1998 20:42:08 +0000
Received: by indy.dunnington.york.ac.uk (940816.SGI.8.6.9/980207.PNT)
for pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au id UAA01442; Sat, 9 May 1998 20:43:26 GMT
Date: Sat, 9 May 1998 20:43:26 GMT
From: pete@dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull)
Message-Id: <9805092143.ZM1440 at indy.dunnington.york.ac.uk>
Reply-To: pete at dunnington.u-net.com
X-Mailer: Z-Mail (3.2.2 10apr95 MediaMail)
To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation)
Subject: mkfs on an RL02
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
I'm looking for some advice...
For the first time in umpteen years, I need to make a bootable 7th Edition
system disk on an RL02 that previously had some other O/S on it. This disk
has to have the swap space, as well. The machine it will be used on has
256K bytes RAM.
How many blocks should I leave for swap? Or, to put it another way, what
magic number pair would people suggest I put in the prototype file for the
number of blocks and number of inodes?
--
Pete Peter Turnbull
Dept. of Computer Science
University of York
Received: (from major at localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA19878
for pups-liszt; Sun, 10 May 1998 06:24:03 +1000 (EST)
Received: from serv1.is4.u-net.net (hme0.serv1.is4.u-net.net [195.102.240.153])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id GAA19873
for <pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Sun, 10 May 1998 06:23:57 +1000 (EST)
Received: from indy.dunnington.york.ac.uk [195.102.197.32]
by serv1.is4.u-net.net with smtp (Exim 1.73 #1)
id 0yYGUH-0007Qs-00; Sat, 9 May 1998 20:44:54 +0000
Received: by indy.dunnington.york.ac.uk (940816.SGI.8.6.9/980207.PNT)
for pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au id UAA01449; Sat, 9 May 1998 20:46:36 GMT
Date: Sat, 9 May 1998 20:46:36 GMT
From: pete@dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull)
Message-Id: <9805092146.ZM1447 at indy.dunnington.york.ac.uk>
In-Reply-To: "Pete Turnbull" <pete at indy.dunnington.york.ac.uk>
"mkfs on an RL02" (May 9, 21:43)
References: <9805092143.ZM1440 at indy.dunnington.york.ac.uk>
Reply-To: pete at dunnington.u-net.com
X-Mailer: Z-Mail (3.2.2 10apr95 MediaMail)
To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation)
Subject: Re: mkfs on an RL02
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
On May 9, 21:43, Pete Turnbull wrote:
> I need to make a bootable 7th Edition system disk on an RL02...
and then thought, "I wonder if there's some easy way to tell what numbers
were used on an existing system disk, if the prototype file no longer
exists?"
--
Pete Peter Turnbull
Dept. of Computer Science
University of York
Received: (from major at localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA21159
for pups-liszt; Sun, 10 May 1998 17:55:53 +1000 (EST)
Received: from europe.std.com (europe.std.com [199.172.62.20])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA21151
for <pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Sun, 10 May 1998 17:55:48 +1000 (EST)
Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.7.6/BZS-8-1.0)
id EAA12462; Sun, 10 May 1998 04:17:07 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from localhost by world.std.com (TheWorld/Spike-2.0)
id AA29779; Sun, 10 May 1998 01:17:06 -0700
Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 01:17:06 -0700 (PST)
From: Brian D Chase <bdc@world.std.com>
To: "Ed G." <edgee at cyberpass.net>
Cc: Greg Lehey <grog at lemis.com>, pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: Floating Point-The Results Are In!
In-Reply-To: <199805080414.AAA28438 at renoir.op.net>
Message-Id: <Pine.SGI.3.95.980510011221.27113A-100000 at world.std.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
On Fri, 8 May 1998, Ed G. wrote:
> > I'll believe this when you pinpoint the instructions.
>
> Your skepticism spurred me to examine a Unix utility in depth to see
> whether my results hold up. They do.
Is it possible that you're mistakenly disassembling embedded data as if it
were code? And perhaps that those data items contain arrangements of byte
values which translate to FP instructions?
-brian.
---
Brian "JARAI" Chase | http://world.std.com/~bdc/ | VAXZilla LIVES!!!
Received: (from major at localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA21206
for pups-liszt; Sun, 10 May 1998 18:05:09 +1000 (EST)
Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA21201
for <pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Sun, 10 May 1998 18:05:06 +1000 (EST)
Received: (from wkt at localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id SAA02363; Sun, 10 May 1998 18:26:23 +1000 (EST)
From: Warren Toomey <wkt@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199805100826.SAA02363 at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Re: mkfs on an RL02
To: pete at dunnington.u-net.com
Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 18:26:23 +1000 (EST)
Cc: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
In-Reply-To: <9805092143.ZM1440 at indy.dunnington.york.ac.uk> from Pete Turnbull at "May 9, 98 08:43:26 pm"
Reply-To: wkt at cs.adfa.oz.au
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
In article by Pete Turnbull:
> I'm looking for some advice...
>
> For the first time in umpteen years, I need to make a bootable 7th Edition
> system disk on an RL02 that previously had some other O/S on it. This disk
> has to have the swap space, as well. The machine it will be used on has
> 256K bytes RAM.
>
> How many blocks should I leave for swap? Or, to put it another way, what
> magic number pair would people suggest I put in the prototype file for the
> number of blocks and number of inodes?
The best & only answer here is to consult to xxconf file used to generate
the 7th Edition kernel, as this will tell you how much swap to reserve.
Vanilla V7 didn't come with RL02 support, so all I can give you are the
parameters used for the RL02 images I have here with V7:
rl
tm
root rl 0
swap rl 0
swplo 18000
nswap 2480
In other words, the filesystem should be no bigger than 18,000 blocks.
The mkfs manual says:
If the prototype file cannot be opened and its name con-
sists of a string of digits, mkfs builds a file system
with a single empty directory on it. The size of the file
system is the value of proto interpreted as a decimal num-
ber. The number of i-nodes is calculated as a function of
the filsystem size. The boot program is left uninitial-
ized.
Distribution V7 had roughly 2,600 files & directories. If I had to
set a value, I'd choose 5,000 or so.
Hope this helps,
Warren
Received: (from major at localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA21220
for pups-liszt; Sun, 10 May 1998 18:06:29 +1000 (EST)
Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA21215
for <pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Sun, 10 May 1998 18:06:25 +1000 (EST)
Received: (from wkt at localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id SAA02382; Sun, 10 May 1998 18:27:43 +1000 (EST)
From: Warren Toomey <wkt@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199805100827.SAA02382 at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Re: mkfs on an RL02
To: pete at dunnington.u-net.com
Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 18:27:43 +1000 (EST)
Cc: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation)
In-Reply-To: <9805092146.ZM1447 at indy.dunnington.york.ac.uk> from Pete Turnbull at "May 9, 98 08:46:36 pm"
Reply-To: wkt at cs.adfa.oz.au
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
In article by Pete Turnbull:
> On May 9, 21:43, Pete Turnbull wrote:
> > I need to make a bootable 7th Edition system disk on an RL02...
>
> and then thought, "I wonder if there's some easy way to tell what numbers
> were used on an existing system disk, if the prototype file no longer
> exists?"
You'd have to disassemble the kernel. Alternatively, consult the
size of the free block list on the disk's image.
Warren
Received: (from major at localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA21366
for pups-liszt; Sun, 10 May 1998 19:41:33 +1000 (EST)
Received: from serv1.is4.u-net.net (hme0.serv1.is4.u-net.net [195.102.240.153])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id TAA21361
for <pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Sun, 10 May 1998 19:41:27 +1000 (EST)
Received: from indy.dunnington.york.ac.uk [195.102.197.239]
by serv1.is4.u-net.net with smtp (Exim 1.73 #1)
id 0yYSvi-0004je-00; Sun, 10 May 1998 10:02:03 +0000
Received: by indy.dunnington.york.ac.uk (940816.SGI.8.6.9/980207.PNT)
for pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au id KAA07638; Sun, 10 May 1998 10:02:46 GMT
Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 10:02:46 GMT
From: pete@dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull)
Message-Id: <9805101102.ZM7636 at indy.dunnington.york.ac.uk>
In-Reply-To: Warren Toomey <wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
"Re: mkfs on an RL02" (May 10, 18:26)
References: <199805100826.SAA02363 at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Reply-To: pete at dunnington.u-net.com
X-Mailer: Z-Mail (3.2.2 10apr95 MediaMail)
To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: mkfs on an RL02
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
Hi, Warren.
On May 10, 18:26, Warren Toomey wrote:
> > For the first time in umpteen years, I need to make a bootable 7th
> > Edition system disk on an RL02...
> > How many blocks should I leave for swap? Or, to put it another way,
> > what magic number pair would people suggest I put in the prototype file
> > for the number of blocks and number of inodes?
>
> The best & only answer here is to consult to xxconf file used to generate
> the 7th Edition kernel, as this will tell you how much swap to reserve.
I should have thought of that! Steven told me the same thing last night.
> Vanilla V7 didn't come with RL02 support, so all I can give you are the
> parameters used for the RL02 images I have here with V7:
>
> rl
> tm
> root rl 0
> swap rl 0
> swplo 18000
> nswap 2480
That looks the same as mine.
> In other words, the filesystem should be no bigger than 18,000 blocks.
I had a look in the superblock on a couple of bootable RL02s, and found
18,000.
> Distribution V7 had roughly 2,600 files & directories. If I had to
> set a value, I'd choose 5,000 or so.
I knew about using digits for the blocks instead of a proto file, but I
thought it might be safer to specify the number for the inodes. I tried to
figure it out from the results of icheck but I'm much happier with your
suggestion.
I'll let you know how I get on. The reason to do this today is two-fold:
One of my packs is getting flaky, so I want to make a good copy, with
a clean install (most of mine have lots of localised junk), and
our department has an Open Day on Wednesday, and I've been coerced
into running a display of old machines. The 11T23 is the easiest PDP
for me to move there.
Thanks for the help!
--
Pete Peter Turnbull
Dept. of Computer Science
University of York
Received: (from major at localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA21625
for pups-liszt; Sun, 10 May 1998 21:27:41 +1000 (EST)
Received: from Zeke.Update.UU.SE (2026 at Zeke.Update.UU.SE [130.238.11.14])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA21620
for <pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Sun, 10 May 1998 21:27:33 +1000 (EST)
Received: from localhost (bqt at localhost)
by Zeke.Update.UU.SE (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id NAA29830;
Sun, 10 May 1998 13:48:24 +0200
Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 13:48:23 +0200 (MET DST)
From: Johnny Billquist <bqt@Update.UU.SE>
To: Greg Lehey <grog at lemis.com>
cc: edgee at cyberpass.net, pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: Floating Point-The Results Are In!
In-Reply-To: <19980507110724.M396 at freebie.lemis.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.VUL.3.93.980510134657.29637B-100000 at Zeke.Update.UU.SE>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
On Thu, 7 May 1998, Greg Lehey wrote:
> On Wed, 6 May 1998 at 20:45:41 -0400, Ed G. wrote:
> > Using a new approach, I have re-counted the number of floating point
> > operations for the utilities contained in Unix's bin directory.
> > According to my results, many important 7th Edition programs such as
> > adb, awk and tar make heavy use of floating point on the PDP-11.
>
> I'll believe this when you pinpoint the instructions.
I wouldn't be *that* surprised by these results. For instance, I believe
that longs are implemented with FP. And I wouldn't be surprised if a few
FP ops were sneaked in to compute some stuff that aren't immediately
appearant.
Johnny
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
|| on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt at update.uu.se || Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
Received: (from major at localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA22385
for pups-liszt; Mon, 11 May 1998 02:30:15 +1000 (EST)
Received: from moe.2bsd.com (0 at MOE.2BSD.COM [206.139.202.200])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id CAA22380
for <pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Mon, 11 May 1998 02:30:09 +1000 (EST)
Received: (from sms at localhost)
by moe.2bsd.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA00593
for pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Sun, 10 May 1998 09:49:44 -0700 (PDT)
Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 09:49:44 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms@moe.2bsd.com>
Message-Id: <199805101649.JAA00593 at moe.2bsd.com>
To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: Floating Point-The Results Are In!
Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
Hi -
> From: Johnny Billquist <bqt at Update.UU.SE>
> I wouldn't be *that* surprised by these results. For instance, I believe
> that longs are implemented with FP. And I wouldn't be surprised if a few
> FP ops were sneaked in to compute some stuff that aren't immediately
> appearant.
It is true that _some_ long arithmetic is done using FP. The long
divide is done that way (at least in 2BSD, I've not looked at V7 yet)
because it is much much less code to convert the operands to FP, do
the divide, and then convert the result back (the alternative is
about two pages of code). Different CPUs handle a fault during a
double word push to the stack differently, this was a real difficult
problem to track down and fix. If during the FP instruction
"movfi fr0,-(sp)" the stackpointer becomes invalid some PDP-11 CPUs
handle the fault differently. See 2.11BSD update #150 for the details.
The C compiler itself did NOT generate FP unless the operands were
explicitly FP (float or double). Most C code was 'int' or 'char *'
and no FP code was needed or used for that.
FP instructions would be clustered together where the libc.a routines
were loaded. The 'ldiv' and 'lrem' routines would have several FP
instructions close to each other but the rest of the program would
have very few. A program such as 'adb' would have a few FP instructions
in the routines that display the FP registers. Oh - there's a bug
dating back to V7 in adb. The FP registers for a traced/running
process do not display correctly (using adb on a core file works fine).
Fixed in 2.11 (see update #405) ;-)
Steven Schultz
Received: (from major at localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA22952
for pups-liszt; Mon, 11 May 1998 06:42:17 +1000 (EST)
Received: from serv1.is4.u-net.net (hme0.serv1.is4.u-net.net [195.102.240.153])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id GAA22947
for <pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Mon, 11 May 1998 06:42:09 +1000 (EST)
Received: from indy.dunnington.york.ac.uk [195.102.197.20]
by serv1.is4.u-net.net with smtp (Exim 1.73 #1)
id 0yYdEp-0007gr-00; Sun, 10 May 1998 21:02:28 +0000
Received: by indy.dunnington.york.ac.uk (940816.SGI.8.6.9/980207.PNT)
for pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au id UAA08058; Sun, 10 May 1998 20:47:11 GMT
Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 20:47:11 GMT
From: pete@dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull)
Message-Id: <9805102147.ZM8056 at indy.dunnington.york.ac.uk>
In-Reply-To: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms at moe.2bsd.com>
"Re: Floating Point-The Results Are In!" (May 10, 9:49)
References: <199805101649.JAA00593 at moe.2bsd.com>
Reply-To: pete at dunnington.u-net.com
X-Mailer: Z-Mail (3.2.2 10apr95 MediaMail)
To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: Floating Point-The Results Are In!
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
On May 10, 9:49, Steven M. Schultz wrote:
> Subject: Re: Floating Point-The Results Are In!
>
> > From: Johnny Billquist <bqt at Update.UU.SE>
> > I wouldn't be *that* surprised by these results. For instance, I
believe
> > that longs are implemented with FP. And I wouldn't be surprised if a
few
> > FP ops were sneaked in to compute some stuff that aren't immediately
> > appearant.
>
> It is true that _some_ long arithmetic is done using FP. The long
> divide is done that way (at least in 2BSD, I've not looked at V7
> yet) because it is much much less code to convert the operands to
> FP, do the divide, and then convert the result back (the
alternative
> is about two pages of code).
> The C compiler itself did NOT generate FP unless the operands were
> explicitly FP (float or double). Most C code was 'int' or 'char *'
> and no FP code was needed or used for that.
That bears out what I disovered by accident yesterday -- looking at a 7th
Edition UK source distribution for 11/23's and other small machines. The
READ_ME file lists the programs that have possible floating point problems,
or which might be too big using emulation. I can't remember the details,
but the list had a few surprises.
Most of the C programs have very little FP, and that is mostly due to a
small number of library routines that include FP ops, but one or two
programs are exceptional.
For example, 'factor' has a lot of FP at the beginning, a chunk in the
middle, and a large subroutine near the end, which uses FP to compute
square roots using Newton's method. factor is written in assembler, not C,
and has much more FP than other things I looked at, but several other
programs use a little.
--
Pete Peter Turnbull
Dept. of Computer Science
University of York
Received: (from major at localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA23210
for pups-liszt; Mon, 11 May 1998 08:44:05 +1000 (EST)
Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA23205
for <pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Mon, 11 May 1998 08:44:02 +1000 (EST)
Received: (from wkt at localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA02896 for pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Mon, 11 May 1998 09:05:06 +1000 (EST)
Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA23188
for <pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Mon, 11 May 1998 08:37:53 +1000 (EST)
Received: (from wkt at localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id IAA02806 for pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Mon, 11 May 1998 08:58:57 +1000 (EST)
From: Warren Toomey <wkt@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199805102258.IAA02806 at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: PUPS Mail List welcome + news
To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation)
Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 08:58:57 +1000 (EST)
Reply-To: wkt at cs.adfa.oz.au
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
We've had a regular intake of new subscribers to the PUPS mailing list, so
I thought I'd say Welcome to all the newcomers. There are now 90 people on
the list, and the quantity of messages is increasing daily.
The mailing list is also available in a digest form, which is distributed
twice a week. If you would rather be on the digest list, send mail to
majordomo at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au with the lines in the body of the mail:
unsubscribe pups
subscribe pups-digest
For more information about old UNIX, see the PUPS web pages at
http://minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au/PUPS, and the FAQ in particular.
The most recent news is that both Bob Supnik and the Begemot team have
released new versions of their PDP-11 emulators. A further bug in Bob's
emulator was found by Steven Schultz, so we might see a patch to the
emulator coming out soon.
The PUPS volunteers have been hard at work burning and mailing out the
first batch of CDs containing the PUPS Archive, which is now about 520Megs
in size. We also have about 30 people with authorised access into the
on-line PUPS Archive.
Dion at SCO has promised another batch of new UNIX licenses, which I
should receive in the next few days. When I do, I'll post the details here.
That's all for now. Ciao,
Warren
Received: (from major at localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA23314
for pups-liszt; Mon, 11 May 1998 09:20:25 +1000 (EST)
Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA23309
for <pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Mon, 11 May 1998 09:20:21 +1000 (EST)
Received: (from wkt at localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA02987; Mon, 11 May 1998 09:41:19 +1000 (EST)
From: Warren Toomey <wkt@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199805102341.JAA02987 at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Re: PUPS Mail List welcome + news
To: jkatz at darpanet.net (J. Joseph Max Katz)
Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 09:41:19 +1000 (EST)
Cc: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.NEB.3.96.980510164539.6267A-100000 at corinne.cpio.org> from "J. Joseph Max Katz" at "May 10, 98 04:47:31 pm"
Reply-To: wkt at cs.adfa.oz.au
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
In article by J. Joseph Max Katz:
> Hi,
>
> What's the latest on the 4BSD re-release that Marshal Kirk McKusick
> is doing?
I've sent the list of people interested to Kirk. He's still a bit vague,
but is looking at selling a 4-CD set of all the 4BSD releases for a
price around US$100. That's a ballpark number, and will depend on how many
people want the set: the more the cheaper it will be.
I haven't heard back from him for a week or so. Should I ask him what
he is planning?
Please, none of this is for public consumption just yet.
Cheers,
Warren
Received: (from major at localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id EAA26253
for pups-liszt; Tue, 12 May 1998 04:39:53 +1000 (EST)
Received: from mail11.digital.com (mail11.digital.com [192.208.46.10])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id EAA26248
for <pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Tue, 12 May 1998 04:39:46 +1000 (EST)
Received: from exceng1.ako.dec.com (exceng1.ako.dec.com [16.151.72.50])
by mail11.digital.com (8.8.8/8.8.8/WV1.0e) with ESMTP id PAA07349
for <pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Mon, 11 May 1998 15:00:12 -0400 (EDT)
Received: by exceng1.ako.dec.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.1960.3)
id <KRDX27L5>; Mon, 11 May 1998 15:00:19 -0400
Message-ID: <6B84B1FF221BD011B0AC08002BE6920671F48E at excmso.mso.dec.com>
From: Bob Supnik <Bob.Supnik@digital.com>
To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: vi bug found
Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 15:01:14 -0400
MIME-Version: 1.0
X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.1960.3)
Content-Type: text/plain
Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
For those who want vi to work before V2.3c is released, the problem is
in the divide instruction. Look for:
dst = src / src2;
if ((dst >= 077777) || (dst < -0100000)) {
and change the second line to:
if ((dst > 077777) || (dst < -0100000)) {
(Thanks to Steve Schultz for finding this.)
The magtape bootstrap is also broken, that will be fixed in V2.3c as
well.
/Bob Supnik
Received: (from major at localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA27617
for pups-liszt; Tue, 12 May 1998 10:37:37 +1000 (EST)
Received: from toad.xkl.com (toad.xkl.com [192.94.202.40])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id KAA27612
for <pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Tue, 12 May 1998 10:37:30 +1000 (EST)
Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 17:55:24 -0700
From: "Daniel A. Seagraves" <DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com>
Subject: Just got my license from SCO...
To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Message-ID: <13354936165.17.DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com>
Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
I'm number AU-31.
-------
Received: (from major at localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA27849
for pups-liszt; Tue, 12 May 1998 12:02:14 +1000 (EST)
Received: from renoir.op.net (root at renoir.op.net [209.152.193.4])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA27844
for <pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Tue, 12 May 1998 12:02:06 +1000 (EST)
Received: from goppelt.op.net (d-phlarc2-0d.ppp.op.net [209.152.199.109]) by renoir.op.net (o1/$Revision: 1.17 $) with SMTP id WAA16927; Mon, 11 May 1998 22:21:24 -0400 (EDT)
Message-Id: <199805120221.WAA16927 at renoir.op.net>
Comments: Authenticated sender is <edgee at cyberpass.net>
From: "Ed G." <edgee@cyberpass.net>
To: Greg Lehey <grog at lemis.com>
Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 22:21:12 -0400
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT
Subject: Re: Floating Point-The Results Are In!
Reply-to: edgee at cyberpass.net
CC: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
In-reply-to: <19980508194615.O12200 at freebie.lemis.com>
References: <199805080414.AAA28438 at renoir.op.net>; from Ed G. on Fri, May 08, 1998 at 12:14:03AM -0400
X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.54)
Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
> I don't know what the code above is intended to do, but it's not
> floating point. At the very best, it would indicate the use of the
> floating point registers for straightforward data moves. I stand by
> my assertion that tar doesn't use floating point, neither in the
> Seventh Edition nor elsewhere.
I agree: tar doesn't *use* floating point.
However, from what I can determine the floating point ops in tar are
not some weird way of moving data around, nor is floating point
being used to do long arithmetic as some have suggested.
Compare the first few tar floating point ops with a dummy program
consisting of a single call to scanf:
tar, 106 floating point ops:
0: SETD ;170011
20532: STCFD F0,(R1) ;176011
20562: STF F0,(R1) ;174011
22406: LDF F0,(R4)+ ;172424
22410: STF F0,-(SP) ;174046
22460: LDF F0,(R4)+ ;172424
22462: STF F0,-(SP) ;174046
22620: LDF F0,(R4)+ ;172424
22622: STF F0,-(SP) ;174046
24124: LDF F0,4(R5) ;172465 000004
24130: STF F0,-(SP) ;174046
26616: LDF F0,#56200 ;172427 056200
26622: STF F0,177732(R5) ;174065 177732
etc.
scanf, 106 floating point ops:
000000: SETD ;170011
002764: STCFD F0,(R1) ;176011
003014: STF F0,(R1) ;174011
004346: LDF F0,(R4)+ ;172424
004350: STF F0,-(SP) ;174046
004420: LDF F0,(R4)+ ;172424
004422: STF F0,-(SP) ;174046
004560: LDF F0,(R4)+ ;172424
004562: STF F0,-(SP) ;174046
004750: LDF F0,4(R5) ;172465 000004
004754: STF F0,-(SP) ;174046
006410: LDF F0,#56200 ;172427 056200
006414: STF F0,177732(R5) ;174065 177732
So it would appear that whatever floating point there is in tar comes
from library routines which have been linked in, but which tar does
not use.
"When you hear hoofbeats, think horses, not zebras."
Ed
Received: (from major at localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA06408
for pups-liszt; Thu, 14 May 1998 10:40:06 +1000 (EST)
Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA06400
for <pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Thu, 14 May 1998 10:39:58 +1000 (EST)
Received: (from wkt at localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id KAA08059; Thu, 14 May 1998 10:59:28 +1000 (EST)
From: Warren Toomey <wkt@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199805140059.KAA08059 at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: More licenses from SCO
To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation)
Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 10:59:28 +1000 (EST)
Reply-To: wkt at cs.adfa.oz.au
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: application/pgp; format=text; x-action=sign
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
I've received some more UNIX source licenses from SCO. The new licencees are:
Craig Bevans, Brian Chase, Efton Collins, Peter Collinson,
David Galloway, Jay Jaeger, Dieter Muller, Daniel Seagraves,
Jason Stevens, Warren Toomey, Christopher Vance, Norman Wilson,
Thomas Zenker.
As always, if you are interested in obtaining access to the on-line PUPS
Archive, or a copy of it on some form of media (CD, tape etc.), then
please mail your request to pupsarchive at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au. You will
receive an automated response with more details.
The PUPS Volunteers have sent out about 6 CDs so far, and one tape(?).
Cheers all,
Warren
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3ia
Charset: noconv
iQCVAwUBNVpBm0bObQUa2Z5FAQFe7gP9ERhvXqncCx1U5uyzSBo6n5TYm34XCrmi
gg0KYOHhG1vNdFuXHviXQa3u9fd/8J1eNlw7e7aKAkNbfjb2jilO0XA8yU+b6D1O
LsOwFuoCvgAFpdERIIeIFEmI+/fFEDsSN07/4TOazLkZgyBeWjJ45MYeew1UJZB5
r3lL++opjiA=
=4xMV
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
Received: (from major at localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA06436
for pups-liszt; Thu, 14 May 1998 10:43:48 +1000 (EST)
Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA06429
for <pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Thu, 14 May 1998 10:43:44 +1000 (EST)
Received: (from wkt at localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA08094; Thu, 14 May 1998 11:03:13 +1000 (EST)
From: Warren Toomey <wkt@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199805140103.LAA08094 at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Re: More licenses from SCO
To: wkt at cs.adfa.oz.au
Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 11:03:12 +1000 (EST)
Cc: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
In-Reply-To: <199805140059.KAA08059 at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> from Warren Toomey at "May 14, 98 10:59:28 am"
Reply-To: wkt at cs.adfa.oz.au
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
In article by Warren Toomey:
> I've received some more UNIX source licenses from SCO. The new licencees are:
I forgot to say: Dion gave me license number AU-0, at the behest of
the members of the PUPS mailing list. Thanks all!!
Warren
Received: (from major at localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA09954
for pups-liszt; Mon, 18 May 1998 19:54:02 +1000 (EST)
Received: from tesla.df.lth.se (tesla.df.lth.se [194.47.252.144])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA09949
for <pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Mon, 18 May 1998 19:53:55 +1000 (EST)
Received: from lintilla2.df.lth.se (lintilla2.df.lth.se [194.47.252.38])
by tesla.df.lth.se (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id LAA19904;
Mon, 18 May 1998 11:51:48 +0200 (MET DST)
Received: by lintilla2.df.lth.se (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4)
id LAA13628; Mon, 18 May 1998 11:54:07 +0200
Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 11:54:06 +0200 (MET DST)
From: Beastly Wolf <beast@lintilla2.df.lth.se>
To: wkt at cs.adfa.oz.au
cc: PDP Unix Preservation <pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Exploited by spammers.
In-Reply-To: <199805140059.KAA08059 at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.980518114414.13620B-100000 at lintilla2.df.lth.se>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
Hi all!
I want to tell you all how sorry I am for spamming occuring from this site.
Due to several reasons it was possible to exploit the lintilla service
machines.
We hope we have put an end to it now (it was not an easy task since it
involved *cringe* beurocracy).
If anybody receives spams from lintilla.df.lth.se or lintilla2.df.lth.se
from now on please let me know! It should not happen but....
The lintilla services machines does not approve to spam and we try to
fight back as hard as we are able.
Internet used to be a happy place where people helped eachother and where
life was simple and good. Sometimes I long for those days now gone. =(
Today it seems that greed and abuse is the rule...
Again, sorry for the inconvenience that spamming from this site has caused!
Sincerely yours:
Lars Persson, the Lintilla services.
Received: (from major at localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA12548
for pups-liszt; Tue, 19 May 1998 13:03:27 +1000 (EST)
Received: from forbin.killthewabbit.org (killthewabbit.org [208.192.43.132])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id NAA12542
for <pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Tue, 19 May 1998 13:03:18 +1000 (EST)
Message-Id: <199805190148.SAA10957 at forbin.killthewabbit.org>
From: "Ian King" <iking@killthewabbit.org>
To: "PDP Unix Preservation" <pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Question regarding tape drive interface
Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 19:50:09 -0700
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Priority: 3
X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1160
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
X-MIME-Autoconverted: from base64 to 8bit by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au id NAA12544
Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
OK, this may not be *exactly* the right place to ask this.....
I'm in the process of acquiring a PDP-11/34, on which I intend to run *some* flavor of UNIX. I also have a Cipher F-880 tape drive, which I would like to interface with the PDP-11. Reading between the lines of several pages on the Web, it seems it should be possible to do this, but which module is required? And does that prescribe the version of UNIX I'll be able to run? Thanks in advance for any experience you can share!
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
24 hours in a day, 24 beers in a case. Coincidence?
Ian King <iking at KillTheWabbit.org> No opinions but my own. So there.
Received: (from major at localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA15443
for pups-liszt; Wed, 20 May 1998 05:38:49 +1000 (EST)
Received: from post.mail.demon.net (post-12.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.41])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id FAA15438
for <pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Wed, 20 May 1998 05:38:41 +1000 (EST)
Received: from (falstaf.demon.co.uk) [158.152.152.109]
by post.mail.demon.net with smtp (Exim 1.82 #2)
id 0ybs9n-0004Zb-00; Tue, 19 May 1998 20:34:39 +0100
Message-ID: <5Im5JEAs5dY1Ewa$@falstaf.demon.co.uk>
Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 20:33:00 +0100
To: Ian King <iking at killthewabbit.org>
Cc: PDP Unix Preservation <pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>
From: Robin Birch <robin@falstaf.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Question regarding tape drive interface
In-Reply-To: <199805190148.SAA10957 at forbin.killthewabbit.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
X-Mailer: Turnpike (32) Version 3.05 <YSkKJATYm0AxAbv6xUlJqScVOx>
Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
In message <199805190148.SAA10957 at forbin.killthewabbit.org>, Ian King
<iking at killthewabbit.org> writes
>OK, this may not be *exactly* the right place to ask this.....
>
>I'm in the process of acquiring a PDP-11/34, on which I intend to run *some*
>flavor of UNIX. I also have a Cipher F-880 tape drive, which I would like to
>interface with the PDP-11. Reading between the lines of several pages on the
>Web, it seems it should be possible to do this, but which module is required?
>And does that prescribe the version of UNIX I'll be able to run? Thanks in
>advance for any experience you can share!
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>----------------------------------
>24 hours in a day, 24 beers in a case. Coincidence?
>Ian King <iking at KillTheWabbit.org> No opinions but my own. So there.
Wotcher,
You'll need a UNIBUS TS11 card, I don't know the number for this but it
should be relatively easy to get hold of. BSD2 certainly supports this.
Cheers
Robin
Robin Birch robin at falstaf.demon.co.uk
M1ASU/2E0ARJ Old computers and radios always welcome
Received: (from major at localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA03403
for pups-liszt; Fri, 29 May 1998 13:12:02 +1000 (EST)
Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA03398
for <pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Fri, 29 May 1998 13:11:58 +1000 (EST)
Received: (from wkt at localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id NAA01694 for pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Fri, 29 May 1998 13:12:02 +1000 (EST)
From: Warren Toomey <wkt@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199805290312.NAA01694 at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: More UNIX Licenses
To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation)
Date: Fri, 29 May 1998 13:12:02 +1000 (EST)
Reply-To: wkt at cs.adfa.oz.au
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
I've just received licenses from SCO for Don Cruickshank and Hartmut Brandt.
Congrats, you two!
Ciao,
Warren
Received: (from major at localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA18054
for pups-liszt; Thu, 18 Jun 1998 12:55:01 +1000 (EST)
Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA18046
for <pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Thu, 18 Jun 1998 12:54:57 +1000 (EST)
Received: (from wkt at localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id MAA04029; Thu, 18 Jun 1998 12:54:58 +1000 (EST)
From: Warren Toomey <wkt@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199806180254.MAA04029 at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Re: More UNIX Licenses
To: djenner at halcyon.com
Date: Thu, 18 Jun 1998 12:54:57 +1000 (EST)
Cc: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation)
In-Reply-To: <35887E29.828B78E2 at halcyon.com> from "David C. Jenner" at "Jun 17, 98 07:40:41 pm"
Reply-To: wkt at cs.adfa.oz.au
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
In article by David C. Jenner:
> Warren,
>
> I haven't received any PUPS mailing list since this message.
> (May 28th). Are things that slow?
It's been quiet! However, I'll send in a test message to wake everybody up :-)
Ciao,
Warren
Received: (from major at localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA24887
for pups-liszt; Mon, 6 Jul 1998 13:57:50 +1000 (EST)
Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA24882
for <pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Mon, 6 Jul 1998 13:57:46 +1000 (EST)
Received: (from wkt at localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id NAA07988 for pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Mon, 6 Jul 1998 13:58:23 +1000 (EST)
From: Warren Toomey <wkt@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199807060358.NAA07988 at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: More SCO Licenses + Software Tools
To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation)
Date: Mon, 6 Jul 1998 13:58:23 +1000 (EST)
Reply-To: wkt at cs.adfa.oz.au
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
All,
The following people now have SCO source licenses for ancient Unix:
Bruce Robertson, Erick Delios, Kelwin Wylie, Kirsten McIntyre, Matthew Crosby
That brings the numbering scheme up to AU-50, but in fact there are 52
SCO source licenses for ancient Unix.
The mailing list has been pretty quiet. Hope you're all well. The only
news I have is that Norman Wilson is still slowly scanning in the manuals
from 2nd to 5th Edition. He now has most (all?) of 5th edition scanned in.
I haven't heard from Kirk McKusick, but he's still planning to sell a 4CD
set of all the 4BSD releases from CSRG. The cost is still expected to be
around US$100, but if he gets flooded with requests, this may come down.
Software Tools
--------------
I got some mail last week from Deborah Scherrer:
I was one of the people who created the Software
Tools project and Software Tools Users Group (Peter Salus
mentioned us in his book). If you're interested, you might
want to include the Software Tools tapes in your collection.
She suggested that I contact Barbera Chase, which I did.
Barbera (bc at mrdata.netcetera.com) then wrote:
Sorry, we don't actually have any of the files online anymore, nor do we
have access to a tape drive. What we have are 9-track tapes, probably in
1600bpi. There are three versions of the tools for PDP machines, one for
RSX-11 and two for "generic" Unix. I still happen to have several copies
of each, and will be glad to send them to you. Just let me know where to
send them, and if you happen to have a shipping account number that would
be even better ;-)
I don't know Barbera's geographic location. However, would anybody in the
US be prepared to read these tapes for us, and pass the contents to me for
inclusion in the PUPS Archive??!
Cheers all,
Warren
Received: (from major at localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA24990
for pups-liszt; Mon, 6 Jul 1998 14:18:43 +1000 (EST)
Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [139.130.136.133] (may be forged))
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA24985
for <pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Mon, 6 Jul 1998 14:18:35 +1000 (EST)
Received: (from grog at localhost)
by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) id NAA07541;
Mon, 6 Jul 1998 13:48:29 +0930 (CST)
Message-ID: <19980706134828.B6528 at freebie.lemis.com>
Date: Mon, 6 Jul 1998 13:48:28 +0930
From: Greg Lehey <grog@lemis.com>
To: wkt at cs.adfa.oz.au, PDP Unix Preservation <pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Re: More SCO Licenses + Software Tools
References: <199807060358.NAA07988 at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i
In-Reply-To: <199807060358.NAA07988 at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>; from Warren Toomey on Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 01:58:23PM +1000
WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog
Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia
Phone: +61-8-8388-8286
Fax: +61-8-8388-8725
Mobile: +61-41-739-7062
Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
On Monday, 6 July 1998 at 13:58:23 +1000, Warren Toomey wrote:
> Software Tools
> --------------
>
> I got some mail last week from Deborah Scherrer:
> I was one of the people who created the Software
> Tools project and Software Tools Users Group (Peter Salus
> mentioned us in his book). If you're interested, you might
> want to include the Software Tools tapes in your collection.
>
> She suggested that I contact Barbera Chase, which I did.
> Barbera (bc at mrdata.netcetera.com) then wrote:
> Sorry, we don't actually have any of the files online anymore, nor do we
> have access to a tape drive. What we have are 9-track tapes, probably in
> 1600bpi. There are three versions of the tools for PDP machines, one for
> RSX-11 and two for "generic" Unix. I still happen to have several copies
> of each, and will be glad to send them to you. Just let me know where to
> send them, and if you happen to have a shipping account number that would
> be even better ;-)
>
> I don't know Barbera's geographic location. However, would anybody in the
> US be prepared to read these tapes for us, and pass the contents to me for
> inclusion in the PUPS Archive??!
Registrant:
Netcetera, Inc. (NETCETERA-DOM)
11950 Anderson Valley Way
P.O. Box 939
Boonville, CA 95415
Domain Name: NETCETERA.COM
Administrative Contact:
Chase, Barbara L. (BC309) bc at NETCETERA.COM
707-895-2691
Greg
--
See complete headers for address and phone numbers
finger grog at lemis.com for PGP public key
Received: (from major at localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA27259
for pups-liszt; Tue, 7 Jul 1998 05:16:41 +1000 (EST)
Received: from mgate.nwnexus.com (mgate.nwnexus.com [206.63.63.200])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id FAA27254
for <pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Tue, 7 Jul 1998 05:16:34 +1000 (EST)
Received: from halcyon.com (blv-lx106-ip42.nwnexus.net [206.63.41.242])
by mgate.nwnexus.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA20935;
Mon, 6 Jul 1998 12:15:35 -0700
Message-ID: <35A12252.EFEFE2B0 at halcyon.com>
Date: Mon, 06 Jul 1998 12:15:30 -0700
From: "David C. Jenner" <djenner@halcyon.com>
Reply-To: djenner at halcyon.com
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: Greg Lehey <grog at lemis.com>
CC: wkt at cs.adfa.oz.au, PDP Unix Preservation <pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Re: More SCO Licenses + Software Tools
References: <199807060358.NAA07988 at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> <19980706134828.B6528 at freebie.lemis.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
I think having these in the archives would be great. I used the
Software Tools extensively back in the late 70's and early 80's.
I wish I could read the tapes in, but I'm still working on a tape
drive for an 11/73. (see separate mail.)
Dave
Greg Lehey wrote:
>
> On Monday, 6 July 1998 at 13:58:23 +1000, Warren Toomey wrote:
> > Software Tools
> > --------------
> >
> > I got some mail last week from Deborah Scherrer:
> > I was one of the people who created the Software
> > Tools project and Software Tools Users Group (Peter Salus
> > mentioned us in his book). If you're interested, you might
> > want to include the Software Tools tapes in your collection.
> >
> > She suggested that I contact Barbera Chase, which I did.
> > Barbera (bc at mrdata.netcetera.com) then wrote:
> > Sorry, we don't actually have any of the files online anymore, nor do we
> > have access to a tape drive. What we have are 9-track tapes, probably in
> > 1600bpi. There are three versions of the tools for PDP machines, one for
> > RSX-11 and two for "generic" Unix. I still happen to have several copies
> > of each, and will be glad to send them to you. Just let me know where to
> > send them, and if you happen to have a shipping account number that would
> > be even better ;-)
> >
> > I don't know Barbera's geographic location. However, would anybody in the
> > US be prepared to read these tapes for us, and pass the contents to me for
> > inclusion in the PUPS Archive??!
>
> Registrant:
> Netcetera, Inc. (NETCETERA-DOM)
> 11950 Anderson Valley Way
> P.O. Box 939
> Boonville, CA 95415
>
> Domain Name: NETCETERA.COM
>
> Administrative Contact:
> Chase, Barbara L. (BC309) bc at NETCETERA.COM
> 707-895-2691
>
> Greg
> --
> See complete headers for address and phone numbers
> finger grog at lemis.com for PGP public key
Received: (from major at localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA27294
for pups-liszt; Tue, 7 Jul 1998 05:31:07 +1000 (EST)
Received: from mgate.nwnexus.com (mgate.nwnexus.com [206.63.63.200])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id FAA27289
for <pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Tue, 7 Jul 1998 05:30:57 +1000 (EST)
Received: from halcyon.com (blv-lx106-ip42.nwnexus.net [206.63.41.242])
by mgate.nwnexus.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA21123;
Mon, 6 Jul 1998 12:30:23 -0700
Message-ID: <35A125CA.45FB5455 at halcyon.com>
Date: Mon, 06 Jul 1998 12:30:18 -0700
From: "David C. Jenner" <djenner@halcyon.com>
Reply-To: djenner at halcyon.com
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: wkt at cs.adfa.oz.au, PDP Unix Preservation <pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Generating 2.11BSD boot tape
References: <199807060358.NAA07988 at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> <19980706134828.B6528 at freebie.lemis.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
There hasn't been much traffic here for a while, so maybe I can stir
things up a bit.
I recently acquired a fabulous 9-track tape drive, an M4 9914, which
has both a SCSI and a Pertec interface. This drive is so smart I
spent a couple of hours playing with it without it being hooked up to
any computer.
What's nice is that I can presumably get around the "high-cost"
bottleneck of using a tape drive on both a PDP-11 and Intel
machines: use the SCSI interface on the PC where the interface is
cheap (already exists) and use the Pertec interface on the -11 where
the interface is cheap (already exists). Using the opposite interface
on each machine could run up to a total of $2000 US.
So, what I want to do is read my PUPS archive CD-ROM on an Intel
machine and write appropriate 9-track tapes for the -11. The stumbling
block seems to be software on the Intel side. SCSI software packages
for MS-DOS or Windows 3.1/95/98/NT run $600, $800, even $1500US.
There must be a way of doing a CD-to-Tape generation with a simple
C-language program using one of the "free" OSes: Linux, FreeBSD,
SCO UnixWare, etc.
If anyone has any experience or ideas with this, I would appreciate
your input. It would be very easy for me to install and use one of
these OSs on a spare 486 I have. The question is, which is the most
likely to support SCSI on 9-track tape.
Thanks,
Dave
Received: (from major at localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA28013
for pups-liszt; Tue, 7 Jul 1998 10:13:27 +1000 (EST)
Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [139.130.136.133] (may be forged))
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA28008
for <pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Tue, 7 Jul 1998 10:13:21 +1000 (EST)
Received: (from grog at localhost)
by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) id JAA10688;
Tue, 7 Jul 1998 09:43:05 +0930 (CST)
Message-ID: <19980707094304.N7792 at freebie.lemis.com>
Date: Tue, 7 Jul 1998 09:43:04 +0930
From: Greg Lehey <grog@lemis.com>
To: djenner at halcyon.com, wkt at cs.adfa.oz.au,
PDP Unix Preservation <pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Which PC UNIX for old SCSI tape drive? (was: Generating 2.11BSD boot tape)
References: <199807060358.NAA07988 at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> <19980706134828.B6528 at freebie.lemis.com> <35A125CA.45FB5455 at halcyon.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i
In-Reply-To: <35A125CA.45FB5455 at halcyon.com>; from David C. Jenner on Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 12:30:18PM -0700
WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog
Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia
Phone: +61-8-8388-8286
Fax: +61-8-8388-8725
Mobile: +61-41-739-7062
Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
On Monday, 6 July 1998 at 12:30:18 -0700, David C. Jenner wrote:
> There hasn't been much traffic here for a while, so maybe I can stir
> things up a bit.
>
> I recently acquired a fabulous 9-track tape drive, an M4 9914, which
> has both a SCSI and a Pertec interface. This drive is so smart I
> spent a couple of hours playing with it without it being hooked up to
> any computer.
>
> What's nice is that I can presumably get around the "high-cost"
> bottleneck of using a tape drive on both a PDP-11 and Intel
> machines: use the SCSI interface on the PC where the interface is
> cheap (already exists) and use the Pertec interface on the -11 where
> the interface is cheap (already exists). Using the opposite interface
> on each machine could run up to a total of $2000 US.
>
> So, what I want to do is read my PUPS archive CD-ROM on an Intel
> machine and write appropriate 9-track tapes for the -11. The stumbling
> block seems to be software on the Intel side. SCSI software packages
> for MS-DOS or Windows 3.1/95/98/NT run $600, $800, even $1500US.
> There must be a way of doing a CD-to-Tape generation with a simple
> C-language program using one of the "free" OSes: Linux, FreeBSD,
> SCO UnixWare, etc.
Sure, that's the obvious way to go.
> If anyone has any experience or ideas with this, I would appreciate
> your input. It would be very easy for me to install and use one of
> these OSs on a spare 486 I have. The question is, which is the most
> likely to support SCSI on 9-track tape.
I think you'll find that they all support SCSI. I'd recommend FreeBSD
because I'm involved with it and because it's the closest to 2.11BSD.
Next, I'd recommend Linux, because you have the sources. You could
have trouble with UnixWare, in which case there wouldn't be much you
could do about it. If you do have any problems with FreeBSD, let me
know and I'll see what I can do.
Greg
--
See complete headers for address and phone numbers
finger grog at lemis.com for PGP public key
Received: (from major at localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA00657
for pups-liszt; Tue, 7 Jul 1998 16:24:57 +1000 (EST)
Received: from post.mail.demon.net (post-12.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.41])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id QAA00649
for <pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Tue, 7 Jul 1998 16:24:50 +1000 (EST)
Received: from (XPUPPY) [193.237.190.229]
by post.mail.demon.net with smtp (Exim 1.82 #2)
id 0ytRAe-00009v-00; Tue, 7 Jul 1998 06:24:09 +0000
Received: by XPUPPY with Microsoft Mail
id <01BDA978.2E5F7760 at XPUPPY>; Tue, 7 Jul 1998 07:23:47 +0100
Message-ID: <01BDA978.2E5F7760 at XPUPPY>
From: Kevin Murrell <kevin@xpuppy.demon.co.uk>
To: "'PDP Unix Preservation'" <pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: DEC in the UK and Dilog
Date: Tue, 7 Jul 1998 07:20:53 +0100
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au id QAA00650
Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
Can anyone shed any light on a company called Dilog. Having acquired two Dilog machines they appear to actually both be PDP-11s. Dilog seemed to have produced DEC compatible hardware for the UK market.
In particular the smaller machine was known as a Vixen. This would appear to be a PDP-11/73 with the DEC M8192 processor card. Indeed the processor card is the only actual DEC product. Colleagues that used this machine described it as the portable PDP-11 - however we are not talking laptop here :)
The 'Vixen' has a Dilog disk controller with a Seagate ST251 attached. The machine is currently running DSM-11 and recognises the drive as a RA81.
I hope to produce a list relating the Dilog part numbers to original DEC part numbers.
Any help or suggestions gratefully received.
Kevin Murrell
Birmingham, England.
Received: (from major at localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA02684
for pups-liszt; Wed, 8 Jul 1998 01:48:44 +1000 (EST)
Received: from seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu (seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu [152.1.88.4])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA02679
for <pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Wed, 8 Jul 1998 01:48:37 +1000 (EST)
Received: (from rdkeys at localhost)
by seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA00178;
Tue, 7 Jul 1998 11:44:16 -0400 (EDT)
(envelope-from rdkeys)
From: "User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys" <rdkeys@seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu>
Message-Id: <199807071544.LAA00178 at seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu>
Subject: Newbie Alert: Which is a ``best'' pdp-11 to look for?????
In-Reply-To: <199807060358.NAA07988 at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> from Warren Toomey at "Jul 6, 98 01:58:23 pm"
To: wkt at cs.adfa.oz.au
Date: Tue, 7 Jul 1998 11:44:14 -0400 (EDT)
Cc: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL38 (25)]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
> All,
> The following people now have SCO source licenses for ancient Unix:
Neato.... I am beginning to think it might be a fun thing to do.
As the newbie aboard, what pdp-11, vax, or other dec machine would be
one to shoot for. Some are largish beasts, but for the Joe Homehobby
type that wants to run one in the basement, what would be a reasonable
combination of parts or units (or a whole machine) to look for?
Occasionally machines float up from the bilges here in central NC, USA,
and usually they wind up dumpster fodder. Rather than see that happen,
if I had a choice, what should I be looking for? For convenience, if
there was something that would fit in half a relay rack or so, that
might be nice. Also, if it could run with standard cartridge tapes
(DC300/450/600) sized things, that would be advantageous, since I have
a number of those things and nil reel to reel drives.
> I haven't heard from Kirk McKusick, but he's still planning to sell a 4CD
> set of all the 4BSD releases from CSRG. The cost is still expected to be
> around US$100, but if he gets flooded with requests, this may come down.
That would be something worthwhile to have, just for posterity.
> Software Tools
> --------------
......
> I don't know Barbera's geographic location. However, would anybody in the
> US be prepared to read these tapes for us, and pass the contents to me for
> inclusion in the PUPS Archive??!
I just checked our folks.... nil reel-to-reel drives anymore..... shucks.
One of the technical high schools has the only one left here in NC.
Bob Keys
p.s. Are there any USA NC folks on the list, or just me?
Received: (from major at localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA04090
for pups-liszt; Wed, 8 Jul 1998 10:15:13 +1000 (EST)
Received: from moe.2bsd.com (0 at MOE.2BSD.COM [206.139.202.200])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA04085
for <pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Wed, 8 Jul 1998 10:15:06 +1000 (EST)
Received: (from sms at localhost)
by moe.2bsd.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id RAA05047;
Tue, 7 Jul 1998 17:14:47 -0700 (PDT)
Date: Tue, 7 Jul 1998 17:14:47 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms@moe.2bsd.com>
Message-Id: <199807080014.RAA05047 at moe.2bsd.com>
To: kevin at xpuppy.demon.co.uk, pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: DEC in the UK and Dilog
Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
Hi -
> From: Kevin Murrell <kevin at xpuppy.demon.co.uk>
Linebreaks please? 72-80 columns would be nice ;)
> Can anyone shed any light on a company called Dilog.
Not sure if they're still in the DEC business but at one time they
were one of the major 3rd party vendors making Qbus and Unibus
controllers.
> Having acquired two Dilog machines they appear to actually both be PDP-11s.
> Dilog seemed to have produced DEC compatible hardware for the UK market.
I never heard of Dilog making entire systems. You'd typically buy
the box from DEC (but without any controllers or as few as you could
order a system from DEC with) and then stuff it with Emulex or Dilog
adaptors.
> In particular the smaller machine was known as a Vixen.
Sounds like an OEM somewhere was buying bare systems from DEC and
placing Dilog cards in them.
> This would appear to be a PDP-11/73 with the DEC M8192 processor card.
Indeed it is.
> Indeed the processor card is the only actual DEC product.
> Colleagues that used this machine described it as the portable PDP-11 -
>however we are not talking laptop here :)
What are the dimensions? It likely is a BA-23 box. "Transportable"
would be appropriate - unless you've a *huge* (and sturdy) lap ;)
> The 'Vixen' has a Dilog disk controller with a Seagate ST251 attached.
> The machine is currently running DSM-11 and recognises the drive as a RA81.
> I hope to produce a list relating the Dilog part numbers to original DEC
> part numbers.
It was/is common for controller cards to call anything over ~150mb
an 'ra81' just to give the software a diskid it knew about.
On the various Dilog cards you should find (either on the spine/handles
or the card's front/back) a name. Something like "DQ696" (a disk
controller) or "DQ132" (tape controller). If you can find any numbers
at all let us know and we can probably id them for you.
Steven Schultz
sms at moe.2bsd.com
Received: (from major at localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA04178
for pups-liszt; Wed, 8 Jul 1998 10:52:45 +1000 (EST)
Received: from lion.cs.yorku.ca (lion.cs.yorku.ca [130.63.86.25])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id KAA04173
for <pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Wed, 8 Jul 1998 10:52:39 +1000 (EST)
From: norman@cs.yorku.ca (Norman Wilson)
Date: Tue, 7 Jul 1998 20:52:35 -0400
Message-Id: <UAA01868 at lion.cs.yorku.ca>
Received: from [130.63.92.142] (csts-ip-2.cs.yorku.ca) by lion.cs.yorku.ca id 1867; Tue, 7 Jul 1998 20:52:34
To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: DEC in the UK and Dilog
Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
As Steven Schultz says, Dilog used to make a lot of DEC-compatible
peripheral gear. The old company has been gone for years, but there
is a descendant in Switzerland; see http://www.dilog.ch for details
and contacts. There are still people there who can dig up info about
old Dilog Qbus interfaces; I have discovered this empirically.
Perhaps they know about the Vixen box; certainly they can likely
find out about the Dilog disk controller.
Norman Wilson
Received: (from major at localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA04264
for pups-liszt; Wed, 8 Jul 1998 11:34:31 +1000 (EST)
Received: from blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu (blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu [129.22.50.4])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id LAA04259
for <pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Wed, 8 Jul 1998 11:34:25 +1000 (EST)
Received: by blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu (5.57/Ultrix3.0-C)
id AA00916; Tue, 7 Jul 98 21:34:55 -0400
Date: Tue, 7 Jul 98 21:34:55 -0400
From: msokolov@blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu (Michael Sokolov)
Message-Id: <9807080134.AA00916 at blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu>
To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: DEC in the UK and Dilog
Cc: kevin at xpuppy.demon.co.uk
Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
Steven M. Schultz <sms at moe.2bsd.com> wrote:
> > Can anyone shed any light on a company called Dilog.
>
> Not sure if they're still in the DEC business but at one time they
> were one of the major 3rd party vendors making Qbus and Unibus
> controllers.
I don't know if it's their only business, but they still sell (and
hopefully make) these controllers. One of their guys was trying to sell me
one just a few months ago. Of course, their prices are way off-base
compared to the used market.
Sincerely,
Michael Sokolov
Phone: 216-368-6888 (Office) 440-449-0299 (Home) 216-217-2579 (Cellular)
ARPA Internet SMTP mail: msokolov at blackwidow.cwru.edu
Received: (from major at localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA19102
for pups-liszt; Sun, 12 Jul 1998 12:59:30 +1000 (EST)
Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA19097
for <pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Sun, 12 Jul 1998 12:59:26 +1000 (EST)
Received: (from wkt at localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id MAA01524; Sun, 12 Jul 1998 12:59:32 +1000 (EST)
From: Warren Toomey <wkt@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199807120259.MAA01524 at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Re: PUPS
To: jim at sco.COM (Jim Sullivan)
Date: Sun, 12 Jul 1998 12:59:31 +1000 (EST)
Cc: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation)
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19980710080445.00691374 at mammoth.sco.com> from Jim Sullivan at "Jul 10, 98 11:12:48 am"
Reply-To: wkt at cs.adfa.oz.au
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
In article by Jim Sullivan:
> Do you know if anyone from PUPS is going to SCO Forum/Usenix in
> August in Santa Cruz?
>
> If so, we'd love to connect, if just to say Hi!
>
> Also, SCO has a quarterly Developer's newsletter, called CoreDump.
> Would anyone within PUPS be interested in submitting an article
> for the next edition? 500 words outlining the goals of PUPS
> and how to join/participate? Seems like a nice way to quietly
> promote your efforts.
>
> What do you think?
Hi Jim, I'll pass this email on to the mailing list. I'll probably take you
up on the article. Thanks!
I'm in Australia & not likely to get to Santa Cruz in any hurry. :-(
Ciao,
Warren
Received: (from major at localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA21845
for pups-liszt; Mon, 13 Jul 1998 13:47:50 +1000 (EST)
Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA21838
for <pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Mon, 13 Jul 1998 13:47:46 +1000 (EST)
Received: (from wkt at localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id NAA07263; Mon, 13 Jul 1998 13:47:55 +1000 (EST)
From: Warren Toomey <wkt@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199807130347.NAA07263 at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Recovering old UNIX manuals
To: norman at nose.cs.yorku.ca
Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 13:47:55 +1000 (EST)
Cc: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation)
In-Reply-To: <WAA00038 at lion.cs.yorku.ca> from "norman at nose.cs.yorku.ca" at "Jul 12, 98 10:20:04 pm"
Reply-To: wkt at cs.adfa.oz.au
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
All,
I'm forwarding on Norman's e-mail describing his efforts at
converting his paper-only copies of the early UNIX manuals back into
machine-readable format.
Warren
norman at nose.cs.yorku.ca writes:
> The first pass of markup is all done on chapter I of 5e, which is
> all I have scanned so far. It is tempting to forge ahead on the
> text extracted from Dennis's 1e, but I hope to discipline myself
> to finish some surrounding documentation and tools. On each front,
> right now there is:
> - a small collection of tools to pre-process what comes out
> of the OCR into something that is easy to mark up.
> Specifically there are a couple of little filters that
> fix up the non-ASCII characters emitted by the Mac, and
> that glue hyphenated words back together; and a rather
> bigger awk script that does some of the easy grunt work
> like spotting and marking up entry titles and section headers.
> - a description of the markup language (written in itself,
> of course).
> - a program (also in awk, and surprisingly long) to render
> the markup language into approximately V7 -man. (I have
> actually done all the work so far on the MicroVAX in my
> basement, which is one of the last remaining V10 systems
> in the world, and it won't surprise me to learn that the
> renderer has accidentally picked up some V10-specific
> assumptions.)
> - a collection of advice on style and known OCR botches
> and whatnot for those who mark up and proof the manuals
> as they go through the pipe. (At the moment `those' means
> me and my collaborator in California.)
>
> The most important missing tools and writings are something to render
> into HTML, and something that explains a little more generally just
> what it is I am doing (and how it differs from what Dennis did, and
> for that matter from just trying to regenerate the original troff
> input) and describes the tools and so on. My current hope is to
> get those done in odd moments this week; once I have a decent
> approximation of each, I want to put copies of all the documents
> and all the tools and a few sample pages from 5e up on the web, so
> people have something to look at and I can get comments from a wider
> group. (Obviously I'll drop a note to the PUPS mailing list when
> things are up there.)
>
> While I'm writing the HTML renderer and the missing document this
> week, my colleague in California has already begun an independent
> proofreading pass over the stuff I've marked up, which is a damn
> good thing because I can't see the errors any more (and she has
> already spotted some).
>
> The other tools I know are missing are
> - some sort of structure to allow the old pre-typesetter manuals
> to be rendered in a good approximation of their original form.
> At the moment I expect this will just be a troff macro package
> with the syntax of V7 -man, so I can just use the existing renderer,
> though I can see some font issues looming that may cause force the
> renderer to change (perhaps in a way general enough that there will
> still be only one renderer).
> - something to allow V6-era -man (or /usr/man/man0/naa, to name it
> properly) macros to work too; the obvious cheap way out is something
> that translates V7 -man to V6, presumably with the knowledge that what
> it is translating came out of my markto7man renderer (which restricts
> the language quite a bit, so the job is a lot simpler). I'm not sure
> how important this is--the obvious short-term goal is to be able to
> have a man command in the V5 environment, and since the macros probably
> aren't in the existing distribution, it's fair game to bring in a copy
> of the V7 ones--but it seems worth having in the long run if only for
> fun.
>
> I'd originally thought to write more of the tools before doing so
> much markup, but I'm glad I didn't--the markup language mutated more
> than I expected as experience showed where it was wrong, and it made
> life simpler to have only one renderer to update. I think it is
> pretty much stable now, and in any case I am champing at the bit to
> be able to display things in HTML.
>
> A final complication in all this: it is all but certain that I'll
> be resigning from York this week, effective in about a month, to
> jump back to a position at the University of Toronto (running
> computers for the Canadian Institute for Theoretical Astrophysics).
> This is not a surprise to anyone concerned (including the folks here
> at York--the real reason for the move is that the eleven-mile commute
> to York is just too long for me), but it will certainly have both
> short- and long-term effects on the time I can spend on the manuals.
> The long-term effects may not be what you think, though: the scanner
> and OCR setup I've been using is located at CITA, so once I've settled
> in there (and especially once I get the tools sorted out well enough
> that it is effectively a pipeline), it should be pretty convenient
> to spend the odd hour scanning in a handful of pages.
Received: (from major at localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA23544
for pups-liszt; Mon, 13 Jul 1998 23:49:16 +1000 (EST)
Received: from seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu (seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu [152.1.88.4])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA23539
for <pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Mon, 13 Jul 1998 23:49:09 +1000 (EST)
Received: (from rdkeys at localhost)
by seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA12765;
Mon, 13 Jul 1998 09:44:44 -0400 (EDT)
(envelope-from rdkeys)
From: "User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys" <rdkeys@seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu>
Message-Id: <199807131344.JAA12765 at seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu>
Subject: Re: Recovering old UNIX manuals
In-Reply-To: <199807130347.NAA07263 at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> from Warren Toomey at "Jul 13, 98 01:47:55 pm"
To: wkt at cs.adfa.oz.au
Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 09:44:42 -0400 (EDT)
Cc: norman at nose.cs.yorku.ca, pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL38 (25)]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
> All,
> I'm forwarding on Norman's e-mail describing his efforts at
> converting his paper-only copies of the early UNIX manuals back into
> machine-readable format.
>
> Warren
>
> norman at nose.cs.yorku.ca writes:
> > The first pass of markup is all done on chapter I of 5e, which is
> > all I have scanned so far. It is tempting to forge ahead on the
> > text extracted from Dennis's 1e, but I hope to discipline myself
> > to finish some surrounding documentation and tools. On each front,
> > right now there is:
On a similar bent, I have been working on roffing Dennis' V1 manuals,
using the earliest roff I could still find some sort of source to.
It is one that was popular in the early CP/M days, that also found
its way into dos and unix. How true to the original it is, I dunno,
but it works. They are about 2/3 done, maybe, but my time to get them
done is not as much as I would like.
What should I do with them once they are done? I was thinking of just
sending the source/output back to Dennis, but if it is OK to put them in
in the PUPS archives, I can bounce them to Warren.
Thanks to Dennis Ritchie for making them available.
Bob Keys
p.s. You know, with all this html thingie, whatever happened to just
a real roff/nroff/troff output? It is only ascii. Why html?
Just curious as to why/wherefore/etc.
Received: (from major at localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id EAA25462
for pups-liszt; Tue, 14 Jul 1998 04:59:08 +1000 (EST)
Received: from lion.cs.yorku.ca (lion.cs.yorku.ca [130.63.86.25])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id EAA25457
for <pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Tue, 14 Jul 1998 04:59:01 +1000 (EST)
From: norman@nose.cs.yorku.ca
Message-Id: <OAA19606 at lion.cs.yorku.ca>
Received: from [130.63.92.142] (csts-ip-2.cs.yorku.ca) by lion.cs.yorku.ca id 19605; Mon, 13 Jul 1998 14:58:53
To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 14:58:18 -0400
Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
I hadn't expected Warren to forward my note directly to the list,
so perhaps I'd better fill in some of the missing content.
What I'm trying to do with the old manuals is a mix of different
sorts of historic preservation: it's interesting to be able to
produce something reasonably close to the original in appearance,
including style differences, but I am also interested just in
making the content accessible. That means being able to render
the manual pages into troff -man on modern UNIX systems, or into
nroff /man/man0/naa in the V5 root image, and roff and whatnot;
but also into HTML because that's the right way to make text
available on the web (Postscript is not text), and certainly into
other forms I haven't thought of yet.
To describe it all in utterly pragmatic terms, I want to be able
to put all the old manuals up on the web somewhere in readable
text form (not just page images or Postscript); and to produce
manual data of authentic content and reasonably authentic style
for use with the V5 binary distribution; and to be able to to
print clear reference copies for myself, so I can pack my old
photocopies away in a safe place; and to amuse myself by running
style and diction on the different editions; and I want to be
able to do that even if I don't have a copy of roff or the
appropriate age-authentic macro package.
So the idea is to mark up the text in a sufficiently high-level
form that it can be rendered into any of the forms above (including
the ones I haven't thought of) without undo work. I thought briefly
about using the (V7-era) -man macros as the high-level language,
and in fact much of the simple language I ended up inventing are
obviously drawn from -man (e.g. there are constructs that are
exactly .TH, .SH, and .SS spelled differently); but I wanted to
avoid the temptation just to toss in more and more troff-specific
syntax and semantics whenever some hard-to-represent construct
popped up. (There are too many low-level constructs in the resulting
language as it is.) I also thought about using some existing
document metalanguage like XML or YODL, but those I looked at
were far more ornate than seemed appropriate, and far too free-form;
I don't mind carrying a few medium-sized awk programs around to
render the text, but I object to having to port a language-processing
subsystem larger than the V5 kernel just so I can render V5's manual
pages. (Never mind how large awk and troff are these days.)
There's a name I should also name here: my collaborator in California
to whom the earlier message alludes is Jennine Townsend, who has
photocopies of my photocopies from a sort of earlier collaboration.
More on this in a few days; as I said to Warren, I hope to get
a coherent sample of all this work up on the web shortly so people
can see what I'm doing in more detail and comment, but I am in
the midst of deciding whether to change jobs (it is a coincidence
that the likely job change would put me nearer the OCR setup I've
been using, but it is convenient), and in getting back into the
swing of things at my present job after being out for two weeks
to recover from having corrective maintenance on my sinuses, so
it may not happen till the weekend.
Norman Wilson
Received: (from major at localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA25486
for pups-liszt; Tue, 14 Jul 1998 05:00:33 +1000 (EST)
Received: from lion.cs.yorku.ca (lion.cs.yorku.ca [130.63.86.25])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id FAA25481
for <pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Tue, 14 Jul 1998 05:00:27 +1000 (EST)
From: norman@nose.cs.yorku.ca
Message-Id: <PAA19679 at lion.cs.yorku.ca>
Received: from [130.63.92.142] (csts-ip-2.cs.yorku.ca) by lion.cs.yorku.ca id 19678; Mon, 13 Jul 1998 15:00:22
To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 14:59:47 -0400
Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
A postscript to my note on the old manuyals (typed into the
editor but not written out before I sent the mail!):
A note on distributing this stuff: I asked Dennis about it before
I started my project, and he thought there should be no real
problem making the text generally available, but that it would
be appropriate for the official repository to be at Bell Labs
(now a once-again-visible subsidiary of Lucent Technologies).
That seems pretty sensible to me. I doubt there's a problem
putting them in the PUPS archive, but it would be politic to
check with Dennis first.
Received: (from major at localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA01345
for pups-liszt; Wed, 29 Jul 1998 13:55:27 +1000 (EST)
Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA01340
for <pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Wed, 29 Jul 1998 13:55:23 +1000 (EST)
Received: (from wkt at localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id NAA05056 for pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Wed, 29 Jul 1998 13:55:36 +1000 (EST)
From: Warren Toomey <wkt@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199807290355.NAA05056 at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: PUPS: status report
To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation)
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 13:55:36 +1000 (EST)
Reply-To: wkt at cs.adfa.oz.au
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
Hi all,
Not much has been hapenning in the PDP UNIX Preservation Society.
Kirk McKusick is still waiting for the CD pressing company to do his run
of 4BSD CDs. I'm urging him to make a web page describing the project, so
we can stay informed of the progress.
A few people in comp.unix.bsd.misc suggested that another preservation
society needs to be formed, to preserve 32-bit UNIXes and other non PDP-11
UNIXes. I've set up a mailing list for them to discuss such a project.
If you are interested, then you can join the mailing list by emailing
to majordomo at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au, with a line in the body saying:
subscribe bups
BUPS stands for BIG UNIX Preservation Society. I'm sure they will come
up with a better name :-)
Cheers all,
Warren
Received: (from major at localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA03282
for pups-liszt; Thu, 30 Jul 1998 01:08:39 +1000 (EST)
Received: from seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu (seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu [152.1.88.4])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA03271;
Thu, 30 Jul 1998 01:08:25 +1000 (EST)
Received: (from rdkeys at localhost)
by seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA03577;
Wed, 29 Jul 1998 11:03:49 -0400 (EDT)
(envelope-from rdkeys)
From: "User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys" <rdkeys@seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu>
Message-Id: <199807291503.LAA03577 at seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu>
Subject: Re: PUPS and BUPS (burp!) thoughts.....
In-Reply-To: <199807290355.NAA05056 at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> from Warren Toomey at "Jul 29, 98 01:55:36 pm"
To: wkt at cs.adfa.oz.au
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 11:03:47 -0400 (EDT)
Cc: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au, bups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL38 (25)]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
> Hi all,
> Not much has been hapenning in the PDP UNIX Preservation Society.
> Kirk McKusick is still waiting for the CD pressing company to do his run
> of 4BSD CDs. I'm urging him to make a web page describing the project, so
> we can stay informed of the progress.
This will be great when it happens. Kudos to Kirk.....and all the unsung
heroes along the path to Nirvana.
> A few people in comp.unix.bsd.misc suggested that another preservation
> society needs to be formed, to preserve 32-bit UNIXes and other non PDP-11
> UNIXes. I've set up a mailing list for them to discuss such a project.
> If you are interested, then you can join the mailing list by emailing
> to majordomo at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au, with a line in the body saying:
>
> subscribe bups
>
> BUPS stands for BIG UNIX Preservation Society. I'm sure they will come
> up with a better name :-)
PUPS, BUPS, burp! Sounds fine!
I will jump in the hotseat and own up to the heat. My idea was very simple.
Mainly, I was thinking that there are beginning to surface from the bilges
of surplus, a fair number of aging old-time unix toys. Not all of them
are PDP-11ish flavor. For instance, there are sometimes found some of the
ancient Radio Shack Model 16 things with an odd flavor of Xenix on them.
There are maybe some old vaxen going wanting. There are odd bilgewater
sloshers like my old IBM RT that once did ply the waters of the great BSD
(of the 4.3 style flavor). Also, there are older x86 toys that use to
run the very lowendian V7ish, Xenixish, whateverish flavors. From the
purely hobby and historical perspective, I find it rather wasteful to
let such things just vaporize. It seems we have the PDP11 world, then
there is a big black hole until the modern SCOish and Freebieish things.
It is obvious that none of the old toys are going to be competing with
the rush to NT and SCOish things. Thus, there is a need to maybe fill
that hole with something like the PUPS, but for 32bitish toys, and all
the non-PDP-11 toys.
One thing that PUPS has going, is a good working basis with all the
unixy world, the big players, the historical saints, etc. So, it was
logical to perceive that such a working framework might be expanded
slightly to include not just 32V, but all the odd successors, down to
where SCO claims rightly its territory on the SysV part of the tree.
IF that framework is a BUPS offshoot, so-be-it. But, I still think that
both PUPS and the new BUPS share much common cammaraderie and playground.
Alas, I am not yet of sufficient rank to be called but a lowly journeyman,
in the unixy world. I have run it in earnest for some 10 years, played
some with it on a PDP-11, so long ago, that it is mostly forgotten, and
still keep a set of 8 inch Xenix floppers around, just in case that mystical
Model 16B drops by, again. Thus, there is not a lot I can do. But, I do toss
out the idea, would like to see where it goes. Mebbie some heavyweight
gurus would like to run with it some.....
Let us roll it around a bit, and see where the currents takes us.
The 32BitBiggieUPS should not be forgotten. I think it can only be good
for all to make it play.....
Sincerely
R.D. Keys
rdkeys at seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu
> Cheers all,
> Warren
Cheers all hands aboard PUPS, BUPS, .... burp!, .... whatever.....
RDK
Received: (from major at localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA03488
for pups-liszt; Thu, 30 Jul 1998 01:52:41 +1000 (EST)
Received: from blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu (blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu [129.22.50.4])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id BAA03483;
Thu, 30 Jul 1998 01:52:32 +1000 (EST)
Received: by blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu (5.57/Ultrix3.0-C)
id AA12576; Wed, 29 Jul 98 11:52:57 -0400
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 98 11:52:57 -0400
From: msokolov@blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu (Michael Sokolov)
Message-Id: <9807291552.AA12576 at blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu>
To: bups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au, pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: PUPS and BUPS (burp!) thoughts.....
Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
"User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys" <rdkeys at seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> wrote:
> It is obvious that none of the old toys are going to be competing with
> the rush to NT and SCOish things.
Excuse me, sir, but I have to make a point here. They _ARE_ competing!
My office is the largest room in the department, and it's filled with VAXen
of all kinds. My goal is to get 4.3BSD-* running on all of them and operate
this system in direct competition with other UNIX systems on our campus,
which are all Pentiums or SPARCs. Since my system administration skills and
friendliness to students surpass those of other campus UNIX systems' admins
by many orders of binary magnitude, I plan to urge people to migrate to my
VAXen this way. Yes, my plan is total world VAX domination! This is exactly
why I want to modify Berkeley VAX UNIX to run on all VAX models from 11/780
to 10000. (An EXTREMELY daring and ambitious goal, needless to say.)
I have two strong and radical views:
0. The only higher-than-PDP-11 computers that can be allowed to run UNIX
are DEC VAXen. I oppose the idea of running UNIX on PeeCees and shit like
that.
1. I consider it the ultimate in blasphemy to attempt to create "UNIX
clones" that people dare to call "Unix" but don't really contain any code
written by God Ritchie, God Thompson, or God Kernighan. I never use any
"free Unices" like FreeBSD and NetBSD. Right now I use Ultrix and SunOS,
which are kosher in the above sense but binary-only for most people. The
latter part is why I want to move to 4.3BSD-*. Also my belief in True
licensed UNIX(R) is the reason I have joined PUPS, as it seems to be the
only remaining group dealing with such UNIX.
Sincerely,
Michael Sokolov
Phone: 216-368-6888 (Office) 440-449-0299 (Home) 216-217-2579 (Cellular)
ARPA Internet SMTP mail: msokolov at blackwidow.cwru.edu
Received: (from major at localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA03595
for pups-liszt; Thu, 30 Jul 1998 02:31:20 +1000 (EST)
Received: from europe.std.com (europe.std.com [199.172.62.20])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id CAA03590
for <pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Thu, 30 Jul 1998 02:31:15 +1000 (EST)
Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.7.6/BZS-8-1.0)
id MAA29168; Wed, 29 Jul 1998 12:31:07 -0400 (EDT)
Received: by world.std.com (TheWorld/Spike-2.0)
id AA16185; Wed, 29 Jul 1998 12:31:06 -0400
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 12:31:06 -0400
From: allisonp@world.std.com (Allison J Parent)
Message-Id: <199807291631.AA16185 at world.std.com>
To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: PUPS and BUPS (burp!) thoughts.....
Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
< Excuse me, sir, but I have to make a point here. They _ARE_ competing
Not an undesireable thing. May the best win... for the rest of us any
is better than zero.
< 0. The only higher-than-PDP-11 computers that can be allowed to run U
< are DEC VAXen. I oppose the idea of running UNIX on PeeCees and shit lik
< that.
That is also wrong, as Interdata 8/32, IBM System/370 and Honeywell 6000
are recognized as ports by K&R in their docs! the latter three systems
while interesting are not general collectors fare as they tend to be a
bit large.
Frankly, why not? Anything that competes with MS is good!
< 1. I consider it the ultimate in blasphemy to attempt to create "UNI
< clones" that people dare to call "Unix" but don't really contain any cod
< written by God Ritchie, God Thompson, or God Kernighan. I never use any
< "free Unices" like FreeBSD and NetBSD. Right now I use Ultrix and SunOS
It was God Bell Labs (nee WE) that K&R worked for that put the odious
license fees on unix, in 1980 it was a mere $24,000 for the sources which
were a must have. People started doing clones to break free of the
license and distributions that didn't contain sources. It made possible
to get on platforms that were unsupported/unsupportable without source
code or at least for the commercial versions at lower cost to the user.
Venix for Pro350 is such an example (it's v6 or v7 code!). I'm not
saying the clones are good or bad, only born of necessity. Of course
they couldn't contain and of said God code due to licenses.
Like all gods their feet are of clay.
Since the goal is to preserve unix and unix like OSs there is no crime,
even if the varients are not direct decendents. So long as people
understand the lineage preservation should certainly should proceed.
Allison
Received: (from major at localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id DAA03871
for pups-liszt; Thu, 30 Jul 1998 03:31:54 +1000 (EST)
Received: from seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu (seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu [152.1.88.4])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id DAA03866;
Thu, 30 Jul 1998 03:31:47 +1000 (EST)
Received: (from rdkeys at localhost)
by seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA04034;
Wed, 29 Jul 1998 13:27:14 -0400 (EDT)
(envelope-from rdkeys)
From: "User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys" <rdkeys@seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu>
Message-Id: <199807291727.NAA04034 at seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu>
Subject: Re: PUPS and BUPS (burp!) thoughts.....
In-Reply-To: <9807291552.AA12576 at blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu> from Michael Sokolov at "Jul 29, 98 11:52:57 am"
To: msokolov at blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu (Michael Sokolov)
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 13:27:12 -0400 (EDT)
Cc: bups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au, pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL38 (25)]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
> "User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys" <rdkeys at seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> wrote:
> > It is obvious that none of the old toys are going to be competing with
> > the rush to NT and SCOish things.
>
> Excuse me, sir, but I have to make a point here. They _ARE_ competing!
No excuses necessary. But, please relax a bit and don't let the blood
boil to much. All of us here, are interested in the preservation of the
beast. Granted many may run it for a living, me included, to some extent.
But, likewise most or many of us are the same folks that have a vaxen
or pdp-11 in the basement (I remember seeing a pix of one of our leader's
machines next to the kitchen fridge?). Clearly, the basement/kitchen toys
are not competing. They are purely hobby related. My dumpster risc box
won't ever compete again, but is fun to spin up a TeX and troff on.
> My office is the largest room in the department, and it's filled with VAXen
> of all kinds. My goal is to get 4.3BSD-* running on all of them and operate
> this system in direct competition with other UNIX systems on our campus,
> which are all Pentiums or SPARCs. Since my system administration skills and
> friendliness to students surpass those of other campus UNIX systems' admins
> by many orders of binary magnitude, I plan to urge people to migrate to my
> VAXen this way. Yes, my plan is total world VAX domination! This is exactly
> why I want to modify Berkeley VAX UNIX to run on all VAX models from 11/780
> to 10000. (An EXTREMELY daring and ambitious goal, needless to say.)
Clearly yours are more mainstream related.
Kudos for the sysadmin handholding towards the students. Mentoring, one
on one is the best way to handle many computer learning things.
Although vaxen may dominate the world (or did at one time, according to
Henry Spencer's infamous ten commandments for C programmers), there are
many lesser breeds that I sense others of us partake of. Also, there
are insufficient numbers of remaining vaxen and pdp-11's for all of us
to have one in the home hobbyroom. Because of that, I would suggest
that maybe there is interest in the other lines of machines and their
related unices, even the 32bitters.
> I have two strong and radical views:
>
> 0. The only higher-than-PDP-11 computers that can be allowed to run UNIX
> are DEC VAXen. I oppose the idea of running UNIX on PeeCees and shit like
> that.
Not so, IMHO. The purist may run a vaxen in the manner of the Bugattis
of old, but us garage monkeywrench types may be stuck with even a lowly
PC thingie. Don't quite put the PC flavors down, since I can attest to
their utility in poverty stricken research projects for at least the past
10 years, courtesy Big Blue and that hybrid PC unix of theirs (AIX 1.x).
Also, the freebie BSD's are sufficiently close to the real thing, that
most average users would not know the difference. Cat is cat is cat,
no matter how it is coded (and they all look remarkably similar).
> 1. I consider it the ultimate in blasphemy to attempt to create "UNIX
> clones" that people dare to call "Unix" but don't really contain any code
> written by God Ritchie, God Thompson, or God Kernighan. I never use any
> "free Unices" like FreeBSD and NetBSD. Right now I use Ultrix and SunOS,
> which are kosher in the above sense but binary-only for most people. The
> latter part is why I want to move to 4.3BSD-*. Also my belief in True
> licensed UNIX(R) is the reason I have joined PUPS, as it seems to be the
> only remaining group dealing with such UNIX.
Well, yes and no.
I consider it a tribute to the likes of Thompson, Ritchie, Kernighan,
Ossanna, and a string of others down the trees, that the wisdom of their
reasoning and toiling has had fruition even in the lowly PC's. Why did
the freebies catch on like they have? Because the folks wanted something
like a BSD, and the corporate bean counters and lawyers missed their chance.
As to which flavor to use, I use what I have that will run on whichever
box I have on. I prefer a BSDish box, but even a V7 is fun, and with
a viish terminal driver and troff, still runs with the best of the big
dogs, and even AIX is usable if you get used to its quirks.
But, for sure, the point of all this is to preserve the history, code,
nuances, and whatever else can be maintained, unless I am sorely amiss
of the PUPS goals. I only think it needs to include the castoff 32
bit machines, too, hence the need for a BUPS group, IMHO.
> Sincerely,
> Michael Sokolov
With all due respect.
R.D. Keys
rdkeys at seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu
Received: (from major at localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id EAA03980
for pups-liszt; Thu, 30 Jul 1998 04:02:13 +1000 (EST)
Received: from seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu (seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu [152.1.88.4])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id EAA03968;
Thu, 30 Jul 1998 04:02:04 +1000 (EST)
Received: (from rdkeys at localhost)
by seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA04109;
Wed, 29 Jul 1998 13:57:25 -0400 (EDT)
(envelope-from rdkeys)
From: "User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys" <rdkeys@seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu>
Message-Id: <199807291757.NAA04109 at seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu>
Subject: Re: PUPS and BUPS (burp!) thoughts (what have we started?)
In-Reply-To: <199807291631.AA16185 at world.std.com> from Allison J Parent at "Jul 29, 98 12:31:06 pm"
To: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent)
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 13:57:22 -0400 (EDT)
Cc: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au, bups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL38 (25)]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
> Not an undesireable thing. May the best win... for the rest of us any
> is better than zero.
Well said, but perhaps we need to frame that with something like,
``all will win, even the least....''
> < 0. The only higher-than-PDP-11 computers that can be allowed to run U
> < are DEC VAXen. I oppose the idea of running UNIX on PeeCees and shit lik
> < that.
>
> That is also wrong, as Interdata 8/32, IBM System/370 and Honeywell 6000
> are recognized as ports by K&R in their docs! the latter three systems
> while interesting are not general collectors fare as they tend to be a
> bit large.
Can anyone refresh my memory of what machines specifically were listed
in the V7 and 32V and 2/3/4BSD docs? I would like to get that clear,
for reference purposes. Also, what specific machines were ported out
of these main sources by the odd vendors. The majority was pdp11ish,
but about V7 time the 68000 and Z8000 and other oddities pop up.
> < 1. I consider it the ultimate in blasphemy to attempt to create "UNI
> < clones" that people dare to call "Unix" but don't really contain any cod
> < written by God Ritchie, God Thompson, or God Kernighan. I never use any
> < "free Unices" like FreeBSD and NetBSD. Right now I use Ultrix and SunOS
>
> It was God Bell Labs (nee WE) that K&R worked for that put the odious
> license fees on unix, in 1980 it was a mere $24,000 for the sources which
> were a must have. People started doing clones to break free of the
> license and distributions that didn't contain sources. It made possible
> to get on platforms that were unsupported/unsupportable without source
> code or at least for the commercial versions at lower cost to the user.
> Venix for Pro350 is such an example (it's v6 or v7 code!). I'm not
> saying the clones are good or bad, only born of necessity. Of course
> they couldn't contain and of said God code due to licenses.
I would agree on the necessity. Back in '88 I went shopping for an office
machine, and could find nothing under around 25 kilobucks. I opted out
for a peanuts budget machine (PS/2 model 80 with AIX) at around 10K bucks
and the silly thing is still whirring away as my remote tape dumper.
Alas, it is a much maligned PC, but it functions nontheless, and IS a
real unix. Alas, these days, its steam is a little underpowered trying
to scrape the web, so it idles in the background. Technically, it is
a 32 bit abandoned unix, and for hypotheticals, it ought to be something
workable in a BUPS sort of archive, with proper Big Blue nodding. The
same thing should occur for the RT. It would probably be a nightmare
of paperwork between SCO and IBM and us, tho.....
> Like all gods their feet are of clay.
The gods were hacking away fine.... alas the beanyheads upstairs had
their feet stuck, if I am reading my history correctly.
> Since the goal is to preserve unix and unix like OSs there is no crime,
> even if the varients are not direct decendents. So long as people
> understand the lineage preservation should certainly should proceed.
The goal is to save it if possible, BEFORE it becomes vaporware, for
purely hobby/historical purposes, with the big player's graces and
consents.
If we don't dream a little and oil some squeeky wheels, it will never
get done.....
> Allison
RDK
Received: (from major at localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA14668
for pups-liszt; Thu, 30 Jul 1998 16:18:07 +1000 (EST)
Received: from forbin.killthewabbit.org (killthewabbit.org [208.192.43.132])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id QAA14663;
Thu, 30 Jul 1998 16:17:49 +1000 (EST)
Message-Id: <199807300606.XAA11564 at forbin.killthewabbit.org>
From: "Ian King" <iking@KillTheWabbit.org>
To: "User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys" <rdkeys at seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu>,
"Michael Sokolov" <msokolov at blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu>
Cc: <bups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>, <pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Re: PUPS and BUPS (burp!) thoughts.....
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 23:02:39 -0700
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Priority: 3
X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1160
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
X-MIME-Autoconverted: from base64 to 8bit by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au id QAA14664
Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
I'm glad there are people and codebases that compete with Microsoft -- and I work for Microsoft. It keeps us on our toes. :-) I run NT 4.0 and Linux 2.0.30 side-by-side at home, on the selfsame network -- and all on Intel hardware. I am on this mailing list because I am gaining a PDP 11/34 as a new resident in my home, which will be networked together with the Intel hardware (so I don't have to run downstairs all the time -- the PDP is too large for my computer room upstairs). Why? Call it a sense of history....
Why shouldn't UNIX run on everything? The beauty of the UNIX idea -- which has been cloned and transported and transliterated and transmogrified a myriad times a myriad times -- is that it expresses a rich metaphor for computation, which allows us to make use of these metal monsters. I have the greatest respect for "true" UNIX and its parents and godparents. I also have a lot of respect for Linus Torvalds and the incredible piece of work he birthed -- a true UNIX version that makes excellent use of the PC architecture.
The PC architecture has commoditized significant computing power in a manner that Digital could never have done (or at least, never did), and placed that into the hands of many people who would be otherwise financially barred from playing this game. IMHO it's specious to demonize a particular machine architecture and declare that UNIXes running on it are somehow illegitimate.
Cheers -- Ian King
NOTE: this is strictly my personal ramblings, and does not in any way represent the official position of the Microsoft Corporation.
----------
> From: User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys <rdkeys at seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu>
> To: Michael Sokolov <msokolov at blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu>
> Cc: bups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
> Subject: Re: PUPS and BUPS (burp!) thoughts.....
> Date: Wednesday, July 29, 1998 10:27 AM
>
> > "User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys" <rdkeys at seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> wrote:
> > > It is obvious that none of the old toys are going to be competing with
> > > the rush to NT and SCOish things.
> >
> > Excuse me, sir, but I have to make a point here. They _ARE_ competing!
>
> No excuses necessary. But, please relax a bit and don't let the blood
> boil to much. All of us here, are interested in the preservation of the
> beast. Granted many may run it for a living, me included, to some extent.
> But, likewise most or many of us are the same folks that have a vaxen
> or pdp-11 in the basement (I remember seeing a pix of one of our leader's
> machines next to the kitchen fridge?). Clearly, the basement/kitchen toys
> are not competing. They are purely hobby related. My dumpster risc box
> won't ever compete again, but is fun to spin up a TeX and troff on.
>
> > My office is the largest room in the department, and it's filled with VAXen
> > of all kinds. My goal is to get 4.3BSD-* running on all of them and operate
> > this system in direct competition with other UNIX systems on our campus,
> > which are all Pentiums or SPARCs. Since my system administration skills and
> > friendliness to students surpass those of other campus UNIX systems' admins
> > by many orders of binary magnitude, I plan to urge people to migrate to my
> > VAXen this way. Yes, my plan is total world VAX domination! This is exactly
> > why I want to modify Berkeley VAX UNIX to run on all VAX models from 11/780
> > to 10000. (An EXTREMELY daring and ambitious goal, needless to say.)
>
> Clearly yours are more mainstream related.
>
> Kudos for the sysadmin handholding towards the students. Mentoring, one
> on one is the best way to handle many computer learning things.
>
> Although vaxen may dominate the world (or did at one time, according to
> Henry Spencer's infamous ten commandments for C programmers), there are
> many lesser breeds that I sense others of us partake of. Also, there
> are insufficient numbers of remaining vaxen and pdp-11's for all of us
> to have one in the home hobbyroom. Because of that, I would suggest
> that maybe there is interest in the other lines of machines and their
> related unices, even the 32bitters.
>
> > I have two strong and radical views:
> >
> > 0. The only higher-than-PDP-11 computers that can be allowed to run UNIX
> > are DEC VAXen. I oppose the idea of running UNIX on PeeCees and shit like
> > that.
>
> Not so, IMHO. The purist may run a vaxen in the manner of the Bugattis
> of old, but us garage monkeywrench types may be stuck with even a lowly
> PC thingie. Don't quite put the PC flavors down, since I can attest to
> their utility in poverty stricken research projects for at least the past
> 10 years, courtesy Big Blue and that hybrid PC unix of theirs (AIX 1.x).
> Also, the freebie BSD's are sufficiently close to the real thing, that
> most average users would not know the difference. Cat is cat is cat,
> no matter how it is coded (and they all look remarkably similar).
>
> > 1. I consider it the ultimate in blasphemy to attempt to create "UNIX
> > clones" that people dare to call "Unix" but don't really contain any code
> > written by God Ritchie, God Thompson, or God Kernighan. I never use any
> > "free Unices" like FreeBSD and NetBSD. Right now I use Ultrix and SunOS,
> > which are kosher in the above sense but binary-only for most people. The
> > latter part is why I want to move to 4.3BSD-*. Also my belief in True
> > licensed UNIX(R) is the reason I have joined PUPS, as it seems to be the
> > only remaining group dealing with such UNIX.
>
> Well, yes and no.
>
> I consider it a tribute to the likes of Thompson, Ritchie, Kernighan,
> Ossanna, and a string of others down the trees, that the wisdom of their
> reasoning and toiling has had fruition even in the lowly PC's. Why did
> the freebies catch on like they have? Because the folks wanted something
> like a BSD, and the corporate bean counters and lawyers missed their chance.
> As to which flavor to use, I use what I have that will run on whichever
> box I have on. I prefer a BSDish box, but even a V7 is fun, and with
> a viish terminal driver and troff, still runs with the best of the big
> dogs, and even AIX is usable if you get used to its quirks.
>
> But, for sure, the point of all this is to preserve the history, code,
> nuances, and whatever else can be maintained, unless I am sorely amiss
> of the PUPS goals. I only think it needs to include the castoff 32
> bit machines, too, hence the need for a BUPS group, IMHO.
>
> > Sincerely,
> > Michael Sokolov
>
> With all due respect.
>
> R.D. Keys
> rdkeys at seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu
Received: (from major at localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA00214
for pups-liszt; Fri, 31 Jul 1998 11:22:06 +1000 (EST)
Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA00201;
Fri, 31 Jul 1998 11:21:49 +1000 (EST)
Received: (from wkt at localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA08798; Fri, 31 Jul 1998 11:20:36 +1000 (EST)
From: Warren Toomey <wkt@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199807310120.LAA08798 at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Re: OUPS (was: PUPS and BUPS (burp!) thoughts.....)
To: grog at lemis.com (Greg Lehey)
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 11:20:35 +1000 (EST)
Cc: rdkeys at seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu, wkt at cs.adfa.oz.au,
pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au, bups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
In-Reply-To: <19980731094513.U7830 at freebie.lemis.com> from Greg Lehey at "Jul 31, 98 09:45:13 am"
Reply-To: wkt at cs.adfa.oz.au
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
In article by Greg Lehey:
> Are we really so many disparate people that we need two lists? I'd
> guess that most people would be on both lists. How about just a name
> change, to "Old UNIX Preservation Society"?
>
> Greg
I don't know, I thought that it would give people more flexibility,
and shield people from stuff they didn't want to see. So lets ask:
If you're on the PUPS list, do you want to see stuff about non PDP-11 Unixes?
If you're on the BUPS list, do you want to see stuff about PDP-11 Unixes.
Cheers all,
Warren
Received: (from major at localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA00743
for pups-liszt; Fri, 31 Jul 1998 13:25:22 +1000 (EST)
Received: from mgate.nwnexus.com (mgate.nwnexus.com [206.63.63.200])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA00738;
Fri, 31 Jul 1998 13:25:15 +1000 (EST)
Received: from halcyon.com (blv-lx106-ip44.nwnexus.net [206.63.41.244])
by mgate.nwnexus.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA07370;
Thu, 30 Jul 1998 20:24:49 -0700
Message-ID: <35C138FB.A77E57E3 at halcyon.com>
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 20:24:43 -0700
From: "David C. Jenner" <djenner@halcyon.com>
Reply-To: djenner at halcyon.com
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: bups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
CC: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: OUPS (was: PUPS and BUPS (burp!) thoughts.....)
References: <199807310120.LAA08798 at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
I vote for one list. Leave it PUPS, and call it the
Past/Prehistoric/Perpetual Unix Preservation Society
or something like that. Or think up a "P" adjective
that glorifies the olden Unix.
Almost everything has been cross-posted up to this point,
and I get two copies anyway!
Dave
Warren Toomey wrote:
>
> In article by Greg Lehey:
> > Are we really so many disparate people that we need two lists? I'd
> > guess that most people would be on both lists. How about just a name
> > change, to "Old UNIX Preservation Society"?
> >
> > Greg
>
> I don't know, I thought that it would give people more flexibility,
> and shield people from stuff they didn't want to see. So lets ask:
>
> If you're on the PUPS list, do you want to see stuff about non PDP-11 Unixes?
>
> If you're on the BUPS list, do you want to see stuff about PDP-11 Unixes.
>
> Cheers all,
>
> Warren
Received: (from major at localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA01084
for pups-liszt; Fri, 31 Jul 1998 15:32:13 +1000 (EST)
Received: from harrier.Uznet.NET (harrier.ml.org [193.220.92.194])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA01078
for <pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Fri, 31 Jul 1998 15:30:19 +1000 (EST)
Received: (from stacy at localhost)
by harrier.Uznet.NET (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA01933
for pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Fri, 31 Jul 1998 10:29:46 +0500
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 10:29:46 +0500
From: Stacy Minkin <stacy@asia.uznet.net>
Message-Id: <199807310529.KAA01933 at harrier.Uznet.NET>
To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Let'em be one!
Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
I also vote for one list.
Stacy.
Received: (from major at localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA01162
for pups-liszt; Fri, 31 Jul 1998 15:53:58 +1000 (EST)
Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA01157
for <pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Fri, 31 Jul 1998 15:53:54 +1000 (EST)
Received: (from wkt at localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id PAA09629 for pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Fri, 31 Jul 1998 15:54:01 +1000 (EST)
From: Warren Toomey <wkt@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199807310554.PAA09629 at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Re: Let'em be one!
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 15:54:00 +1000 (EST)
Cc: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
In-Reply-To: <199807310529.KAA01933 at harrier.Uznet.NET> from Stacy Minkin at "Jul 31, 98 10:29:46 am"
Reply-To: wkt at cs.adfa.oz.au
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
In article by Stacy Minkin:
>
> I also vote for one list [about old UNIX].
> Stacy.
Looks like most people would like a common list, so I have merged the
two lists. The PUPS list is now for Prehistoric UNIX :-) I'll keep the
PUPS web page about PDP-11 stuff for now, though.
The bups at minnie list is gone, and all mail for the list should
now go to pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au.
What next?
Warren
Received: (from major at localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA02057
for pups-liszt; Fri, 31 Jul 1998 20:08:38 +1000 (EST)
Received: from blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu (blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu [129.22.50.4])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id UAA02052;
Fri, 31 Jul 1998 20:08:31 +1000 (EST)
Received: by blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu (5.67/MS-InetSite-1.1)
id AA16586; Fri, 31 Jul 98 06:09:02 -0400
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 98 06:09:02 -0400
From: msokolov@blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu (Michael Sokolov)
Message-Id: <9807311009.AA16586 at blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu>
To: bups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au, pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: OUPS (was: PUPS and BUPS (burp!) thoughts.....)
Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
Warren Toomey <wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> wrote:
> I don't know, I thought that it would give people more flexibility,
> and shield people from stuff they didn't want to see. So lets ask:
>
> If you're on the PUPS list, do you want to see stuff about non PDP-11 Unixes?
Yes!
> If you're on the BUPS list, do you want to see stuff about PDP-11 Unixes.
Yes!
Personally, I think it's a bad idea to have two separate societies/lists. After
all, in many case PDP-11 UNIX and VAX UNIX are the same code compiled for
different CPUs, and these lists are not about binary-only OSes, are they?
If it's all fundamentally the same code, it should be on one list, regardless
of what CPUs people want to compile it for.
I'm also a little troubled by the word "preservation". This word suggests the
group acknowledges that these systems are "old" or "historical". 4.3BSD is
being _ACTIVELY WORKED ON_ (by me) as I type, and I have been under the
impression that 2.11BSD is also being actively worked on by Steven M. Schults.
Sure, these systems WILL be "old" or "historical" if we just sit and "preserve"
them, but IMHO this is NOT what we should do. We should look and act and behave
AS IF these systems were brand new. I.e, run them in production on the net
competing with Pentiums and SPARCs, and actually MAKE thse systems new by doing
active development work on the sources just like the dev teams for "new" OSes
do. If we can't build a time machine, let's shut all doors and windows and
create a 1980s world inside!
So, with these ideas in mind, why not call ourselves TUUDS, True UNIX User and
Developer Society?
Received: (from major at localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA02203
for pups-liszt; Fri, 31 Jul 1998 21:13:34 +1000 (EST)
Received: from harrier.Uznet.NET (harrier.ml.org [193.220.92.194])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA02197
for <pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Fri, 31 Jul 1998 21:13:01 +1000 (EST)
Received: (from stacy at localhost)
by harrier.Uznet.NET (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA03207
for pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Fri, 31 Jul 1998 16:12:16 +0500
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 16:12:16 +0500
From: Stacy Minkin <stacy@asia.uznet.net>
Message-Id: <199807311112.QAA03207 at harrier.Uznet.NET>
To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Thoughts...
Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
Hi All!
> From: msokolov at blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu (Michael Sokolov)
>I'm also a little troubled by the word "preservation". This word suggests the
>group acknowledges that these systems are "old" or "historical". 4.3BSD is
>being _ACTIVELY WORKED ON_ (by me) as I type, and I have been under the
>impression that 2.11BSD is also being actively worked on by Steven M. Schults.
>Sure, these systems WILL be "old" or "historical" if we just sit and "preserve"
>them, but IMHO this is NOT what we should do. We should look and act and behave
>AS IF these systems were brand new. I.e, run them in production on the net
>competing with Pentiums and SPARCs, and actually MAKE thse systems new by doing
>active development work on the sources just like the dev teams for "new" OSes
>do. If we can't build a time machine, let's shut all doors and windows and
>create a 1980s world inside!
Absolutely right! The only problem with it that old CPUs are
seems to be slowly vaporizing... I spent about ten years searching
until I finally got original Digital PDP-11 here in Uzbekistan (xUSSR) !
And I succeeded only because I started working for Digital here.
Stacy.
Received: (from major at localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA02334
for pups-liszt; Fri, 31 Jul 1998 21:58:54 +1000 (EST)
Received: from aiai.ed.ac.uk (eigg.aiai.ed.ac.uk [129.215.41.7])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA02329;
Fri, 31 Jul 1998 21:58:48 +1000 (EST)
Received: from dubh.aiai.ed.ac.uk (dubh.aiai.ed.ac.uk [129.215.105.17])
by aiai.ed.ac.uk (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA16048;
Fri, 31 Jul 1998 12:54:50 +0100 (BST)
Received: (tfb at localhost) by dubh.aiai.ed.ac.uk (8.6.13/8.6.12) id MAA03301; Fri, 31 Jul 1998 12:54:50 +0100
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 12:54:50 +0100
Message-Id: <199807311154.MAA03301 at dubh.aiai.ed.ac.uk>
From: Tim Bradshaw <tfb@aiai.ed.ac.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
To: wkt at cs.adfa.oz.au
Cc: grog at lemis.com (Greg Lehey), rdkeys at seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu,
pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au, bups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: OUPS (was: PUPS and BUPS (burp!) thoughts.....)
In-Reply-To: <199807310120.LAA08798 at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
References: <19980731094513.U7830 at freebie.lemis.com>
<199807310120.LAA08798 at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
X-Mailer: VM 6.32 under 19.14 XEmacs Lucid
Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
> If you're on the PUPS list, do you want to see stuff about non PDP-11 Unixes?
> If you're on the BUPS list, do you want to see stuff about PDP-11 Unixes.
I'm on both, I'm interested in stuff about both. I would have thought
that the overlap is fairly large.
--tim
Received: (from major at localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA02319
for pups-liszt; Fri, 31 Jul 1998 21:56:18 +1000 (EST)
Received: from aiai.ed.ac.uk (eigg.aiai.ed.ac.uk [129.215.41.7])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA02314;
Fri, 31 Jul 1998 21:55:58 +1000 (EST)
Received: from dubh.aiai.ed.ac.uk (dubh.aiai.ed.ac.uk [129.215.105.17])
by aiai.ed.ac.uk (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA16054;
Fri, 31 Jul 1998 12:55:33 +0100 (BST)
Received: (tfb at localhost) by dubh.aiai.ed.ac.uk (8.6.13/8.6.12) id MAA03303; Fri, 31 Jul 1998 12:55:32 +0100
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 12:55:32 +0100
Message-Id: <199807311155.MAA03303 at dubh.aiai.ed.ac.uk>
From: Tim Bradshaw <tfb@aiai.ed.ac.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
To: djenner at halcyon.com
Cc: bups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au, pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: OUPS (was: PUPS and BUPS (burp!) thoughts.....)
In-Reply-To: <35C138FB.A77E57E3 at halcyon.com>
References: <199807310120.LAA08798 at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
<35C138FB.A77E57E3 at halcyon.com>
X-Mailer: VM 6.32 under 19.14 XEmacs Lucid
Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
* David C Jenner wrote:
> I vote for one list. Leave it PUPS, and call it the
> Past/Prehistoric/Perpetual Unix Preservation Society
> or something like that. Or think up a "P" adjective
> that glorifies the olden Unix.
Proper Unix Preservation Society!
Received: (from major at localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA02386
for pups-liszt; Fri, 31 Jul 1998 22:19:42 +1000 (EST)
Received: from blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu (blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu [129.22.50.4])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id WAA02381
for <pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Fri, 31 Jul 1998 22:19:36 +1000 (EST)
Received: by blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu (5.67/MS-InetSite-1.1)
id AA16681; Fri, 31 Jul 98 08:20:09 -0400
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 98 08:20:09 -0400
From: msokolov@blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu (Michael Sokolov)
Message-Id: <9807311220.AA16681 at blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu>
To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: Thoughts...
Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
Stacy Minkin <stacy at asia.uznet.net> wrote:
> Absolutely right! The only problem with it that old CPUs are
> seems to be slowly vaporizing...
Then start MAKING them! Our great nation of Workers and Peasants has the best
military technology in the world! Let's show those bloodsucking capitalists
that we can make PDP-11s and VAXen better than they ever could!
Sincerely,
Michael Sokolov
Phone: 216-368-6888 (Office) 440-449-0299 (Home) 216-217-2579 (Cellular)
ARPA Internet SMTP mail: msokolov at blackwidow.CWRU.Edu
Received: (from major at localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA02441
for pups-liszt; Fri, 31 Jul 1998 22:25:32 +1000 (EST)
Received: from blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu (blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu [129.22.50.4])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id WAA02435
for <pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Fri, 31 Jul 1998 22:25:26 +1000 (EST)
Received: by blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu (5.67/MS-InetSite-1.1)
id AA16689; Fri, 31 Jul 98 08:25:59 -0400
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 98 08:25:59 -0400
From: msokolov@blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu (Michael Sokolov)
Message-Id: <9807311225.AA16689 at blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu>
To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: OUPS (was: PUPS and BUPS (burp!) thoughts.....)
Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
Tim Bradshaw <tfb at aiai.ed.ac.uk> wrote:
> Proper Unix Preservation Society!
Yes! I vote for this!
Sincerely,
Michael Sokolov
Phone: 216-368-6888 (Office) 440-449-0299 (Home) 216-217-2579 (Cellular)
ARPA Internet SMTP mail: msokolov at blackwidow.CWRU.Edu
Received: (from major at localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA02735
for pups-liszt; Fri, 31 Jul 1998 23:45:09 +1000 (EST)
Received: from europe.std.com (europe.std.com [199.172.62.20])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA02730
for <pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Fri, 31 Jul 1998 23:45:02 +1000 (EST)
Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.7.6/BZS-8-1.0)
id JAA25745; Fri, 31 Jul 1998 09:44:51 -0400 (EDT)
Received: by world.std.com (TheWorld/Spike-2.0)
id AA23930; Fri, 31 Jul 1998 09:44:51 -0400
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 09:44:51 -0400
From: allisonp@world.std.com (Allison J Parent)
Message-Id: <199807311344.AA23930 at world.std.com>
To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: Thoughts...
Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
< Then start MAKING them! Our great nation of Workers and Peasants has the
< military technology in the world! Let's show those bloodsucking capitali
< that we can make PDP-11s and VAXen better than they ever could!
They never stopped making them. Mentec has some really fast 11s.
Mike, take a prozac and chill. It's all that capitalism that is making
all of those old PDP-11s and such available in the first place. This
place is for unix and it's heirs and relations not political ranting.
We can argue better, first, cleanest, purity after we have captured the
code and preserved it from loss.
Allison
Received: (from major at localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA03203
for pups-liszt; Sat, 1 Aug 1998 02:28:37 +1000 (EST)
Received: from smtp1.erols.com (smtp1.erols.com [207.172.3.234])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id CAA03197
for <pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Sat, 1 Aug 1998 02:28:30 +1000 (EST)
Received: from erols.com (207-172-243-104.s41.as4.rkv.erols.com [207.172.243.104])
by smtp1.erols.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA04398;
Fri, 31 Jul 1998 12:28:08 -0400 (EDT)
Message-ID: <35C1EF3D.6E05D8C7 at erols.com>
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 12:22:23 -0400
From: shsrms <shsrms@erols.com>
Reply-To: shsrms at ero_nospam_ls.com
Organization: Holistic Horizons/Waverider Research
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win16; I)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
CC: msokolov at blackwidow.soml.cwru.edu, port-vax at netbsd.org
Subject: Re: Thoughts...
References: <9807311220.AA16681 at blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
Fellow PUPS Listers,
could someone with the proper education please look at Soko's postings
here and in Netbsd vax list and tell me if soko is a real person or if
he is an agitation program done by the psychology department?
Thanks
bob
Michael Sokolov wrote:
>
> Stacy Minkin <stacy at asia.uznet.net> wrote:
> > Absolutely right! The only problem with it that old CPUs are
> > seems to be slowly vaporizing...
>
> Then start MAKING them! Our great nation of Workers and Peasants has the best
> military technology in the world! Let's show those bloodsucking capitalists
> that we can make PDP-11s and VAXen better than they ever could!
>
> Sincerely,
> Michael Sokolov
> Phone: 216-368-6888 (Office) 440-449-0299 (Home) 216-217-2579 (Cellular)
> ARPA Internet SMTP mail: msokolov at blackwidow.CWRU.Edu
--
real address is shsrms at erols dot com
The Herbal Gypsy and the Tinker.
Received: (from major at localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA03322
for pups-liszt; Sat, 1 Aug 1998 02:48:41 +1000 (EST)
Received: from skatter.USask.Ca (skatter.usask.ca [128.233.14.1])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id CAA03317;
Sat, 1 Aug 1998 02:48:35 +1000 (EST)
Received: from hydrus.USask.Ca (hydrus.usask.ca [128.233.14.27])
by skatter.USask.Ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA04498;
Fri, 31 Jul 1998 10:47:09 -0600 (CST)
From: Neil Johnson <neil@skatter.usask.ca>
Received: (from neil at localhost) by hydrus.USask.Ca (8.7.2/8.7.2) id KAA14549; Fri, 31 Jul 1998 10:47:07 -0600 (CST)
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 10:47:07 -0600 (CST)
Message-Id: <199807311647.KAA14549 at hydrus.USask.Ca>
To: grog at lemis.com, wkt at cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: OUPS (was: PUPS and BUPS (burp!) thoughts.....)
Cc: bups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au, pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au,
rdkeys at seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu
Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
I agree with the idea of one list, but prefer the original
PDP11 Unix Preservation Society. My interest is mainly PDP11
and Unix, which the name suggests. Linked together the names also
provide an indication of the historical nature of the systems being
used. I think anyone with an interest in only one of the two aspects
should be welcome in the group, and I am interested in their
questions or comments about their system.
I also suspect that most participants in the mailing list are
using PDP11 computers. If I didn't have an 11, but was still
using a Model 16 from Radio Shack I personally would not feel
unwelcome in this group with the original name retained. If
other people do feel the PDP11 part of the name excludes them
perhaps a name change would be appropriate.
Neil
Received: (from major at localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id DAA03502
for pups-liszt; Sat, 1 Aug 1998 03:40:04 +1000 (EST)
Received: from blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu (blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu [129.22.50.4])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id DAA03494
for <pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Sat, 1 Aug 1998 03:39:57 +1000 (EST)
Received: by blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu (5.67/MS-InetSite-1.1)
id AA16914; Fri, 31 Jul 98 13:40:22 -0400
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 98 13:40:22 -0400
From: msokolov@blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu (Michael Sokolov)
Message-Id: <9807311740.AA16914 at blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu>
To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: OUPS (was: PUPS and BUPS (burp!) thoughts.....)
Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
Neil Johnson <neil at skatter.usask.ca> wrote:
> I also suspect that most participants in the mailing list are
> using PDP11 computers.
My office is full of VAXen, but I don't envision a PDP-11 coming in any time
soon.
> If
> other people do feel the PDP11 part of the name excludes them
> perhaps a name change would be appropriate.
Yes. Keep in mind that starting with 32V and 3BSD all cool and exciting
development of True UNIX we're talking about here has been on VAXen, NOT on
PDP-11s. Also almost all versions of VAX UNIX (I feel that 4.2BSD+ qualifies as
"almost all") are networking, while PDP-11 UNIX (OK, with the exception of
2.11BSD) is not. You can't seriously expect a UNIXed PDP-11 do what people
would normally expect a UNIX box to do. You CAN do this with a VAX (I'm the
living proof). So, that "PDP-11" stuck in there is very insulting, implicitly
suggesting that anyone who actually runs UNIX(R) in full production for
thousands of users, rather than just "preserves" it, is an outcast. The same
for the word "Preservation". Why not call it Proper UNIX Patriot Society?
Sincerely,
Michael Sokolov
Phone: 216-368-6888 (Office) 440-449-0299 (Home) 216-217-2579 (Cellular)
ARPA Internet SMTP mail: msokolov at blackwidow.CWRU.Edu
Received: (from major at localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA04638
for pups-liszt; Sat, 1 Aug 1998 08:58:27 +1000 (EST)
Received: from seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu (seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu [152.1.88.4])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA04633;
Sat, 1 Aug 1998 08:58:19 +1000 (EST)
Received: (from rdkeys at localhost)
by seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA09506;
Fri, 31 Jul 1998 18:53:34 -0400 (EDT)
(envelope-from rdkeys)
From: "User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys" <rdkeys@seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu>
Message-Id: <199807312253.SAA09506 at seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu>
Subject: Re: OUPS (was: PUPS and BUPS (burp!) thoughts.....)
In-Reply-To: <19980731094513.U7830 at freebie.lemis.com> from Greg Lehey at "Jul 31, 98 09:45:13 am"
To: grog at lemis.com (Greg Lehey)
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 18:53:31 -0400 (EDT)
Cc: wkt at cs.adfa.oz.au, pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au, bups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL38 (25)]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
> On Wednesday, 29 July 1998 at 11:03:47 -0400, User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys wrote:
> >> BUPS stands for BIG UNIX Preservation Society. I'm sure they will come
> >> up with a better name :-)
> >
> > PUPS, BUPS, burp! Sounds fine!
>
> Are we really so many disparate people that we need two lists? I'd
> guess that most people would be on both lists. How about just a name
> change, to "Old UNIX Preservation Society"?
>
> Greg
No, and my original thought was to fold it all under PUPS, but, I sense
that Warren was not wanting to do that.
For heaven's sakes, let us roll with the flow, and do what is best for
all aboard. If that is one list, fine.... or two lists, fine.
It was just a thought.....
I would just like to see other orphan unices included in the philosophy
behind PUPS, before they go vaporware, forever.
How it gets there is unimportant, and for sure we don't want any politics
or bent feelers involved.
It is more important that we get it done, however it happens to get there.
Bob Keys
Received: (from major at localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA04719
for pups-liszt; Sat, 1 Aug 1998 09:35:16 +1000 (EST)
Received: from seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu (seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu [152.1.88.4])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA04714
for <pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Sat, 1 Aug 1998 09:35:09 +1000 (EST)
Received: (from rdkeys at localhost)
by seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA09661;
Fri, 31 Jul 1998 19:30:37 -0400 (EDT)
(envelope-from rdkeys)
From: "User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys" <rdkeys@seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu>
Message-Id: <199807312330.TAA09661 at seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu>
Subject: Thoughts on vaxen....
In-Reply-To: <9807311740.AA16914 at blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu> from Michael Sokolov at "Jul 31, 98 01:40:22 pm"
To: msokolov at blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu (Michael Sokolov)
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 19:30:35 -0400 (EDT)
Cc: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL38 (25)]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
> Neil Johnson <neil at skatter.usask.ca> wrote:
> My office is full of VAXen, but I don't envision a PDP-11 coming in any time
> soon.
For the sake of discussion.....
What should one look for in a VAX?
Say I was walking along through our state surplus agency (and I do that
regularly these days, since all kinds of neato unicy goodies are popping
up from a lot of folks going to NT toys), what kind of parts and pieces
would I need to put together a minimal VAX, suited to some flavor of
homegrown 32V/3BSD/4BSD, etc.
Some of us would not really know one if it fell over on us.... like me.
Yet, IFF I knew enough of what to look out for, mebbie one might appear.
Everyone around here wants plain PC parts and machines in surplus, so
the rest usually gets dumpster chucked or hauled off for scrap by the
pallet load. I just missed 3 relay racks full of such things as
9 track tape drives, and some sort of pdpish lookalike things.
So, what parts by name and number should I keep an eye out for, so
that enough of something might be cobbled together to work?
I have lots of experiences on PS/2, RT, and x86 unix boxes, but
am woefully short on pdp-11 and VAXen experiences. I played with
a pdp-11 many years ago, but I did not know much then. I am probably
not the only one.....
As ol' number 5 was want to say......``need input.... need input''
Thanks
Bob Keys
Received: (from major at localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA06196
for pups-liszt; Sat, 1 Aug 1998 21:13:02 +1000 (EST)
Received: from post.mail.demon.net (post-11.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.40])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id VAA06191;
Sat, 1 Aug 1998 21:12:53 +1000 (EST)
Received: from (falstaf.demon.co.uk) [158.152.152.109]
by post.mail.demon.net with smtp (Exim 1.82 #2)
id 0z2Zai-0000tv-00; Sat, 1 Aug 1998 11:12:48 +0000
Message-ID: <eqRQxBARfvw1Ew98 at falstaf.demon.co.uk>
Date: Sat, 1 Aug 1998 12:11:13 +0100
To: wkt at cs.adfa.oz.au
Cc: Greg Lehey <grog at lemis.com>, rdkeys at seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu,
pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au, bups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
From: Robin Birch <robin@falstaf.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: OUPS (was: PUPS and BUPS (burp!) thoughts.....)
In-Reply-To: <199807310120.LAA08798 at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
MIME-Version: 1.0
X-Mailer: Turnpike (32) Version 3.05 <YSkKJATYm0AxAbv6xUlJqScVOx>
Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
In message <199807310120.LAA08798 at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>, Warren Toomey
<wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> writes
>In article by Greg Lehey:
>> Are we really so many disparate people that we need two lists? I'd
>> guess that most people would be on both lists. How about just a name
>> change, to "Old UNIX Preservation Society"?
>>
>> Greg
>
>I don't know, I thought that it would give people more flexibility,
>and shield people from stuff they didn't want to see. So lets ask:
>
>If you're on the PUPS list, do you want to see stuff about non PDP-11 Unixes?
>
Yes please. Two reasons. The first is that I have a general interest
as I guess most of us have. The second is that I am interested in
porting stuff onto 2.11 and if something comes up on the other unixes it
may have an app on a pdp one
>If you're on the BUPS list, do you want to see stuff about PDP-11 Unixes.
>
>Cheers all,
>
> Warren
____________________________________________________________________
Robin Birch robin at falstaf.demon.co.uk
M1ASU/2E0ARJ Old computers and radios always welcome
Received: (from major at localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA08367
for pups-liszt; Sun, 2 Aug 1998 12:51:34 +1000 (EST)
Received: from blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu (blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu [129.22.50.4])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id MAA08362
for <pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Sun, 2 Aug 1998 12:51:27 +1000 (EST)
Received: by blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu (5.67/MS-InetSite-1.1)
id AA17801; Sat, 1 Aug 98 22:52:00 -0400
Date: Sat, 1 Aug 98 22:52:00 -0400
From: msokolov@blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu (Michael Sokolov)
Message-Id: <9808020252.AA17801 at blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu>
To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: Thoughts on vaxen....
Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
"User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys" <rdkeys at seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> wrote:
> What should one look for in a VAX?
>
> Say I was walking along through our state surplus agency (and I do that
> regularly these days, since all kinds of neato unicy goodies are popping
> up from a lot of folks going to NT toys), what kind of parts and pieces
> would I need to put together a minimal VAX, suited to some flavor of
> homegrown 32V/3BSD/4BSD, etc.
> [...]
> So, what parts by name and number should I keep an eye out for, so
> that enough of something might be cobbled together to work?
Basically, you need a box that says "VAX" on it. :-) Now, there are all
kinds of different VAXen. If you want one that's capable of running
something other than VMS, you have to be really careful. 32V, 3BSD, and
4.0BSD run on the original VAX-11/780 ONLY. There is a VERY low probability
of you (or me) ever finding one. 4.1BSD and 4.2BSD extend this to 11/750
and 11/730, respectively, but these are still very big and scarce beasts.
If you are a REAL VAX patriot (one for whom VAXen are the ONLY computers),
none of this should matter to you anyway, since versions of UNIX before
4.3BSD are unfit for production use on ARPA Internet (the ones before
4.2BSD lack any networking whatsoever, and 4.2BSD lacks DNS).
If your OS of choice is 4.3BSD, 4.3BSD-Tahoe, or 4.3BSD-Reno, you are in
a much better shape. All of them have kernel support for MicroVAX II, and
Reno (and possibly Tahoe) has support for MicroVAX III. It's still very
rudimentary, though. I personally haven't been able to get it booted yet!
Seeing how much work remains to be done to get Berkeley UNIX running on
MicroVAXen, I have decided to take a crack at it myself. I am actively
working on extending the VAX hardware support in 4.3BSD to MicroVAXen and
everything else not currently supported. My goal is to support everything
from 11/780 to 10000. Total world VAX domination!
This is very long-term, though, and you probably want something sooner.
When I was faced with a pressing need to get one of my VAXen up and running
in May, my solution was (and still is) to run Ultrix. True, not having the
sources is VERY frustrating, and some DECisms like subsets, setld,
BIND/Hesiod, etc. really piss me off, but presently this is the closest you
can get to True VAX UNIX(R) that runs on something you or I can get our
hands on. (A note for those who subscribe both to this list and to
port-vax at netbsd.org. PLEASE don't advertise your freebie toy here.
Fortunately, this list is for LICENSED UNIX(R).)
If you want to assemble your VAX from parts, first realize that some of
them (BabyVAXen in my terminology) consist of a single system board. On the
other end of the spectrum there are huge beasts. Although they do consist
of a myriad of boards, they are so specialized that you are very unlikely
to ever find a board for one laying separately. The only VAXen that one can
realistically build from parts are Q-bus ones. To build one, you need a Q-
bus enclosure with a Q22-bus backplane, a Q-bus VAX CPU (KA6xx), and,
unless your CPU has on-board Ethernet and DSSI, Q-bus disk and tape
controllers and a Q-bus Ethernet interface (DEQNA or DELQA). Of course, you
also need the disk and tape drives themselves.
Good luck!
Sincerely,
Michael Sokolov
Phone: 216-368-6888 (Office) 440-449-0299 (Home) 216-217-2579 (Cellular)
ARPA Internet SMTP mail: msokolov at blackwidow.CWRU.Edu
Received: (from major at localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA09408
for pups-liszt; Sun, 2 Aug 1998 21:18:19 +1000 (EST)
Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA09403
for <pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Sun, 2 Aug 1998 21:18:14 +1000 (EST)
Received: (from wkt at localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id VAA11148 for pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Sun, 2 Aug 1998 21:18:34 +1000 (EST)
From: Warren Toomey <wkt@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199808021118.VAA11148 at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: The Unix Society
To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation)
Date: Sun, 2 Aug 1998 21:18:34 +1000 (EST)
Reply-To: wkt at cs.adfa.oz.au
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
Hmm. Looks like we need a larger umbrella group which caters for the
preservation, use and development of all Unix varieties past and present.
I nominate the name The Unix Society
Such a society could have chapters which focus on particular things like
Vax Unixes, PDP-11 Unixes etc., but share common high-level goals.
While I disagree with Michael's idea of total world domination by Vaxen :-),
I believe such a society will be composed of a multitude of different beliefs,
ideas, sub-goals and drives. So please bear this in mind when mailing to the
mailing list!!!
My main sub-goal is to provide a home for the PDP-11 stuff. I don't yet
have the disk space for all the other Unix platforms. Mail yesterday from
Kirk McKusick says that the 4-CD BSD set should be ready within a matter of
days.
Comments on the suggestion of `The Unix Society' as a name? I'm avoiding
using UNIX as it's a trademark, and it's an adjective.
Warren
Received: (from major at localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA10218
for pups-liszt; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 01:42:36 +1000 (EST)
Received: from aiai.ed.ac.uk (eigg.aiai.ed.ac.uk [129.215.41.7])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA10212
for <pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 01:42:28 +1000 (EST)
Received: from dubh.aiai.ed.ac.uk (dubh.aiai.ed.ac.uk [129.215.105.17])
by aiai.ed.ac.uk (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA24282;
Sun, 2 Aug 1998 16:42:15 +0100 (BST)
Received: (tfb at localhost) by dubh.aiai.ed.ac.uk (8.6.13/8.6.12) id QAA06412; Sun, 2 Aug 1998 16:42:14 +0100
Date: Sun, 2 Aug 1998 16:42:14 +0100
Message-Id: <199808021542.QAA06412 at dubh.aiai.ed.ac.uk>
From: Tim Bradshaw <tfb@aiai.ed.ac.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
To: "User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys" <rdkeys at seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu>
Cc: msokolov at blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu (Michael Sokolov),
pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: Thoughts on vaxen....
In-Reply-To: <199807312330.TAA09661 at seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu>
References: <9807311740.AA16914 at blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu>
<199807312330.TAA09661 at seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu>
X-Mailer: VM 6.32 under 19.14 XEmacs Lucid
Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
* User Rdkeys Robert D Keys wrote:
> What should one look for in a VAX?
At least over here, the vax that `everyone' had was an 11/750, which
is one reasonably-sized-but-very-heavy cabinet, with the CPU &c, and
usually tape & disk in one or more other boxes. These things run 4.2
& 4.3 (and earlier I'm sure), and are a bit more tractable than the
11/780 (but slower). I'd guess that these things should be still
available in large numbers, but maybe they've all been scrapped by
now. There are many faster & smaller ones, but I always figured that
the 750 & 780 were the most proper vaxen...
--tim
Received: (from major at localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA11665
for pups-liszt; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 09:26:10 +1000 (EST)
Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA11658
for <pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 09:26:01 +1000 (EST)
Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137])
by allegro.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) with ESMTP id IAA11512;
Mon, 3 Aug 1998 08:55:54 +0930 (CST)
Received: (from grog at localhost)
by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) id IAA24983;
Mon, 3 Aug 1998 08:55:53 +0930 (CST)
Message-ID: <19980803085553.H21892 at freebie.lemis.com>
Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 08:55:53 +0930
From: Greg Lehey <grog@lemis.com>
To: wkt at cs.adfa.oz.au, PDP Unix Preservation <pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Re: The Unix Society
References: <199808021118.VAA11148 at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i
In-Reply-To: <199808021118.VAA11148 at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>; from Warren Toomey on Sun, Aug 02, 1998 at 09:18:34PM +1000
WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog
Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia
Phone: +61-8-8388-8286
Fax: +61-8-8388-8725
Mobile: +61-41-739-7062
Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
On Sunday, 2 August 1998 at 21:18:34 +1000, Warren Toomey wrote:
> Hmm. Looks like we need a larger umbrella group which caters for the
> preservation, use and development of all Unix varieties past and present.
> I nominate the name The Unix Society
>
> Such a society could have chapters which focus on particular things like
> Vax Unixes, PDP-11 Unixes etc., but share common high-level goals.
>
> While I disagree with Michael's idea of total world domination by Vaxen :-),
> I believe such a society will be composed of a multitude of different beliefs,
> ideas, sub-goals and drives. So please bear this in mind when mailing to the
> mailing list!!!
>
> My main sub-goal is to provide a home for the PDP-11 stuff. I don't yet
> have the disk space for all the other Unix platforms. Mail yesterday from
> Kirk McKusick says that the 4-CD BSD set should be ready within a matter of
> days.
>
> Comments on the suggestion of `The Unix Society' as a name? I'm avoiding
> using UNIX as it's a trademark, and it's an adjective.
I don't see the difference in case between UNIX and Unix as
significant in defining what part of speech it means, and we've
already discovered that lawyers prefer UNIX, but will accept Unix if
they want to make a case about violating the conditions of use of the
name. I find the spelling "Unix" looks like the kind of mistake that
people make when they're not aware of these niceties, so I'd prefer
not to use it.
More generally, though, there's nothing in the name that suggests
anything to do with the history of the system. For all it says to the
outside world, it's a new competitor to USENIX.
OK, PUPS may be wearing thin, and I wasn't really serious with OUPS (I
tried, unsuccesfully, to find an expansion for OOPS), but I think we
need to look a little further if we want to change the name.
Greg
--
See complete headers for address and phone numbers
finger grog at lemis.com for PGP public key
Received: (from major at localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA11690
for pups-liszt; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 09:34:56 +1000 (EST)
Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA11685
for <pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 09:34:53 +1000 (EST)
Received: (from wkt at localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA12929 for pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 09:35:17 +1000 (EST)
From: Warren Toomey <wkt@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199808022335.JAA12929 at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Re: The Unix Society
To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation)
Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 09:35:17 +1000 (EST)
In-Reply-To: <19980803085553.H21892 at freebie.lemis.com> from Greg Lehey at "Aug 3, 98 08:55:53 am"
Reply-To: wkt at cs.adfa.oz.au
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
In article by Greg Lehey:
> > Hmm. Looks like we need a larger umbrella group which caters for the
> > preservation, use and development of all Unix varieties past and present.
> > I nominate the name The Unix Society ...
> > Comments on the suggestion of `The Unix Society' as a name? I'm avoiding
> > using UNIX as it's a trademark, and it's an adjective.
>
> I find the spelling "Unix" looks like the kind of mistake that
> people make when they're not aware of these niceties, so I'd prefer
> not to use it.
>
> More generally, though, there's nothing in the name that suggests
> anything to do with the history of the system. For all it says to the
> outside world, it's a new competitor to USENIX.
Hmm, I don't like the all-caps UNIX, looks ugly. This is probably a taste
thing. I wanted to avoid the word `preservation', as people like Steven,
Michael and others are still maintaining, using and developing these systems.
We need a sub-committee to come up with a new name :-) My next suggestion is
/The UNIX Heritage Society/i
Warren
Received: (from major at localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA11772
for pups-liszt; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 09:55:12 +1000 (EST)
Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA11767
for <pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 09:55:07 +1000 (EST)
Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137])
by allegro.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) with ESMTP id JAA11585;
Mon, 3 Aug 1998 09:24:53 +0930 (CST)
Received: (from grog at localhost)
by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) id JAA25063;
Mon, 3 Aug 1998 09:24:52 +0930 (CST)
Message-ID: <19980803092452.N21892 at freebie.lemis.com>
Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 09:24:52 +0930
From: Greg Lehey <grog@lemis.com>
To: wkt at cs.adfa.oz.au, PDP Unix Preservation <pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Re: The Unix Society
References: <19980803085553.H21892 at freebie.lemis.com> <199808022335.JAA12929 at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i
In-Reply-To: <199808022335.JAA12929 at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>; from Warren Toomey on Mon, Aug 03, 1998 at 09:35:17AM +1000
WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog
Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia
Phone: +61-8-8388-8286
Fax: +61-8-8388-8725
Mobile: +61-41-739-7062
Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
On Monday, 3 August 1998 at 9:35:17 +1000, Warren Toomey wrote:
> In article by Greg Lehey:
>>> Hmm. Looks like we need a larger umbrella group which caters for the
>>> preservation, use and development of all Unix varieties past and present.
>>> I nominate the name The Unix Society ...
>>> Comments on the suggestion of `The Unix Society' as a name? I'm avoiding
>>> using UNIX as it's a trademark, and it's an adjective.
>>
>> I find the spelling "Unix" looks like the kind of mistake that
>> people make when they're not aware of these niceties, so I'd prefer
>> not to use it.
>>
>> More generally, though, there's nothing in the name that suggests
>> anything to do with the history of the system. For all it says to the
>> outside world, it's a new competitor to USENIX.
>
> Hmm, I don't like the all-caps UNIX, looks ugly. This is probably a taste
> thing. I wanted to avoid the word `preservation', as people like Steven,
> Michael and others are still maintaining, using and developing these systems.
>
> We need a sub-committee to come up with a new name :-) My next suggestion is
> /The UNIX Heritage Society/i
Sounds a lot better. Time for some other comments, when the rest of
the world wakes up.
Greg
--
See complete headers for address and phone numbers
finger grog at lemis.com for PGP public key
Received: (from major at localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA11922
for pups-liszt; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 10:52:22 +1000 (EST)
Received: from blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu (blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu [129.22.50.4])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id KAA11917
for <pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 10:52:10 +1000 (EST)
Received: by blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu (5.67/MS-InetSite-1.1)
id AA18331; Sun, 2 Aug 98 20:52:42 -0400
Date: Sun, 2 Aug 98 20:52:42 -0400
From: msokolov@blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu (Michael Sokolov)
Message-Id: <9808030052.AA18331 at blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu>
To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: The Unix Society
Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
Warren Toomey <wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> wrote:
> While I disagree with Michael's idea of total world domination by Vaxen
> :-), I believe such a society will be composed of a multitude of
> different beliefs, ideas, sub-goals and drives. So please bear this in
> mind when mailing to the mailing list!!!
Oh, I'm not saying that VAXen should dominate the mailing list or the
society, I'm simply saying that my project is to turn them from
"retrocomputing" into a fully competitive UNIX platform.
> My main sub-goal is to provide a home for the PDP-11 stuff. I don't yet
> have the disk space for all the other Unix platforms.
Keep in mind, though, that the UNIX(R) mainstream is PDP-11 _AND_ VAX.
> Hmm. Looks like we need a larger umbrella group which caters for the
> preservation, use and development of all Unix varieties past and present.
> I nominate the name The Unix Society
and
> Comments on the suggestion of `The Unix Society' as a name? I'm avoiding
> using UNIX as it's a trademark, and it's an adjective.
I personally think it's a very bad idea to extend the society to cover
freebies. Let's keep it limited to software that requires an SCO or
equivalent license. Why? Because otherwise it loses its identity. You can't
cover all UNIX and "Unix" in the world. Huge organizations like USENIX
already exist for this purpose. I believe the purpose of the society should
be to provide a home for the homeless. Here is what I mean by that. People
using "free Unices" already have scores of mailing lists and newsgroups
available to them. The only ones who are always left out are the poor
patriots of True Licensed UNIX(R). So far PUPS has been the only possible
home for them.
Why not have a Proper UNIX(R) Patriot Society which will do the same
thing PUPS does now (provide a central clearinghouse for all licensed
UNIX(R), keep the central database of SCO license holders, discuss
licensing issues), but without restricting it to PDP-11s or to mere
preservation? I don't think we need a huge society with chapters and
subchapters to cover every possible use of every possible OS. People who
want to use a particular OS in a particular way should have their own
mailing lists to discuss really specific issues like hardware, etc. That's
what I will do for 4.3BSD-Quasijarus when it actually sees the light of
day. (For now it has a closed consortium. My experience has been that in
such early stages of development keeping discussions on a public list leads
to nothing except accusations of "vaporware" and flame wars.) PUPS should
be a central clearinghouse for licensed UNIX(R), nothing more. Its scope
should be exactly equal to the scope of the SCO license.
Just my two bits.
Sincerely,
Michael Sokolov
Phone: 216-368-6888 (Office) 440-449-0299 (Home) 216-217-2579 (Cellular)
ARPA Internet SMTP mail: msokolov at blackwidow.CWRU.Edu
Received: (from major at localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA12041
for pups-liszt; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 11:30:19 +1000 (EST)
Received: from mgate.nwnexus.com (mgate.nwnexus.com [206.63.63.200])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA12036
for <pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 11:30:13 +1000 (EST)
Received: from halcyon.com (blv-lx103-ip27.nwnexus.net [206.63.41.77])
by mgate.nwnexus.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA14923;
Sun, 2 Aug 1998 18:29:44 -0700
Message-ID: <35C51258.2C635E5A at halcyon.com>
Date: Sun, 02 Aug 1998 18:28:56 -0700
From: "David C. Jenner" <djenner@halcyon.com>
Reply-To: djenner at halcyon.com
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: Michael Sokolov <msokolov at blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu>
CC: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: The Unix Society
References: <9808030052.AA18331 at blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
I think he has a point here:
Restrict it to whatever the Ancient Unix license from SCO
(and any equivalent licenses yet to emerge) covers. In fact,
an objective could be to try to ADD more systems from vendors
(like Venix, even Xenix) who required the AT&T license.
If this is the case, the "Preservation" part of PUPS is OK, since
what we are trying to do is preserve the use of this strain of
system software.
As to the first P, if not PDP(-11), then what it should refer to
is the original strain of Unix--the Primordial Unix. Hence:
Primordial Unix Preservation Society.
(I really don't want to change my "pups" email alias!)
Dave
Michael Sokolov wrote:
>
> Warren Toomey <wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> wrote:
> > While I disagree with Michael's idea of total world domination by Vaxen
> > :-), I believe such a society will be composed of a multitude of
> > different beliefs, ideas, sub-goals and drives. So please bear this in
> > mind when mailing to the mailing list!!!
>
> Oh, I'm not saying that VAXen should dominate the mailing list or the
> society, I'm simply saying that my project is to turn them from
> "retrocomputing" into a fully competitive UNIX platform.
>
> > My main sub-goal is to provide a home for the PDP-11 stuff. I don't yet
> > have the disk space for all the other Unix platforms.
>
> Keep in mind, though, that the UNIX(R) mainstream is PDP-11 _AND_ VAX.
>
> > Hmm. Looks like we need a larger umbrella group which caters for the
> > preservation, use and development of all Unix varieties past and present.
> > I nominate the name The Unix Society
>
> and
>
> > Comments on the suggestion of `The Unix Society' as a name? I'm avoiding
> > using UNIX as it's a trademark, and it's an adjective.
>
> I personally think it's a very bad idea to extend the society to cover
> freebies. Let's keep it limited to software that requires an SCO or
> equivalent license. Why? Because otherwise it loses its identity. You can't
> cover all UNIX and "Unix" in the world. Huge organizations like USENIX
> already exist for this purpose. I believe the purpose of the society should
> be to provide a home for the homeless. Here is what I mean by that. People
> using "free Unices" already have scores of mailing lists and newsgroups
> available to them. The only ones who are always left out are the poor
> patriots of True Licensed UNIX(R). So far PUPS has been the only possible
> home for them.
>
> Why not have a Proper UNIX(R) Patriot Society which will do the same
> thing PUPS does now (provide a central clearinghouse for all licensed
> UNIX(R), keep the central database of SCO license holders, discuss
> licensing issues), but without restricting it to PDP-11s or to mere
> preservation? I don't think we need a huge society with chapters and
> subchapters to cover every possible use of every possible OS. People who
> want to use a particular OS in a particular way should have their own
> mailing lists to discuss really specific issues like hardware, etc. That's
> what I will do for 4.3BSD-Quasijarus when it actually sees the light of
> day. (For now it has a closed consortium. My experience has been that in
> such early stages of development keeping discussions on a public list leads
> to nothing except accusations of "vaporware" and flame wars.) PUPS should
> be a central clearinghouse for licensed UNIX(R), nothing more. Its scope
> should be exactly equal to the scope of the SCO license.
>
> Just my two bits.
>
> Sincerely,
> Michael Sokolov
> Phone: 216-368-6888 (Office) 440-449-0299 (Home) 216-217-2579 (Cellular)
> ARPA Internet SMTP mail: msokolov at blackwidow.CWRU.Edu
Received: (from major at localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA12074
for pups-liszt; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 11:43:46 +1000 (EST)
Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA12069
for <pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 11:43:41 +1000 (EST)
Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137])
by allegro.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) with ESMTP id LAA11880;
Mon, 3 Aug 1998 11:13:38 +0930 (CST)
Received: (from grog at localhost)
by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) id LAA25458;
Mon, 3 Aug 1998 11:13:38 +0930 (CST)
Message-ID: <19980803111338.W21892 at freebie.lemis.com>
Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 11:13:38 +0930
From: Greg Lehey <grog@lemis.com>
To: djenner at halcyon.com, Michael Sokolov <msokolov at blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu>
Cc: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: The Unix Society
References: <9808030052.AA18331 at blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu> <35C51258.2C635E5A at halcyon.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i
In-Reply-To: <35C51258.2C635E5A at halcyon.com>; from David C. Jenner on Sun, Aug 02, 1998 at 06:28:56PM -0700
WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog
Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia
Phone: +61-8-8388-8286
Fax: +61-8-8388-8725
Mobile: +61-41-739-7062
Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
On Sunday, 2 August 1998 at 18:28:56 -0700, David C. Jenner wrote:
> I think he has a point here:
>
> Restrict it to whatever the Ancient Unix license from SCO
> (and any equivalent licenses yet to emerge) covers. In fact,
> an objective could be to try to ADD more systems from vendors
> (like Venix, even Xenix) who required the AT&T license.
That's rather conservative, isn't it? If we had done that previously,
there would never now have been an SCO licence for 16 bit UNIX. If we
do it now, there will never be a license for 32 bit UNIX.
Greg
--
See complete headers for address and phone numbers
finger grog at lemis.com for PGP public key
Received: (from major at localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA12100
for pups-liszt; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 11:50:20 +1000 (EST)
Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA12095
for <pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 11:50:17 +1000 (EST)
Received: (from wkt at localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA13307 for pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 11:50:42 +1000 (EST)
From: Warren Toomey <wkt@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199808030150.LAA13307 at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Re: The Unix Heritage Society
To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation)
Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 11:50:42 +1000 (EST)
In-Reply-To: <19980803111338.W21892 at freebie.lemis.com> from Greg Lehey at "Aug 3, 98 11:13:38 am"
Reply-To: wkt at cs.adfa.oz.au
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
In article by Greg Lehey:
> On Sunday, 2 August 1998 at 18:28:56 -0700, David C. Jenner wrote:
> > I think he has a point here:
> >
> > Restrict it to whatever the Ancient Unix license from SCO
> > (and any equivalent licenses yet to emerge) covers. In fact,
> > an objective could be to try to ADD more systems from vendors
> > (like Venix, even Xenix) who required the AT&T license.
>
> That's rather conservative, isn't it? If we had done that previously,
> there would never now have been an SCO licence for 16 bit UNIX. If we
> do it now, there will never be a license for 32 bit UNIX.
Keep it to systems which require a UNIX source license, then?
Warren
Received: (from major at localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA12118
for pups-liszt; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 11:53:44 +1000 (EST)
Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA12113
for <pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 11:53:41 +1000 (EST)
Received: (from wkt at localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA13334; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 11:54:06 +1000 (EST)
From: Warren Toomey <wkt@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199808030154.LAA13334 at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Re: The Unix Heritage Society
To: wkt at cs.adfa.edu.au
Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 11:54:06 +1000 (EST)
Cc: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
In-Reply-To: <199808030150.LAA13307 at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> from Warren Toomey at "Aug 3, 98 11:50:42 am"
Reply-To: wkt at cs.adfa.oz.au
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
In article by Warren Toomey:
> Keep it to systems which require a UNIX source license, then?
And lobby SCO for more encompassing cheap UNIX source licenses too.
I forgot to add this sentence.
Warren
Received: (from major at localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA12252
for pups-liszt; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 12:33:19 +1000 (EST)
Received: from nighthawk.iti.gov.sg (nighthawk.iti.gov.sg [192.122.131.51])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id MAA12246
for <pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 12:33:10 +1000 (EST)
Received: (from mailer at localhost) by nighthawk.iti.gov.sg (8.6.11/8.6.11) id KAA11852; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 10:43:19 +0800
Received: from mailhub.iti.gov.sg(192.122.132.132) by nighthawk.iti.gov.sg via smap (V1.3)
id sma011850; Mon Aug 3 10:43:02 1998
Received: (from joerg at localhost)
by iti.gov.sg (8.8.8/8.8.5) id KAA00392;
Mon, 3 Aug 1998 10:23:17 +0800 (SGT)
Message-ID: <19980803102317.65086 at krdl.org.sg>
Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 10:23:17 +0800
From: Joerg Micheel <joerg@krdl.org.sg>
To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Cc: wkt at cs.adfa.oz.au, grog at begemot.org
Subject: Re: The Unix Society
References: <19980803085553.H21892 at freebie.lemis.com> <199808022335.JAA12929 at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> <19980803092452.N21892 at freebie.lemis.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88e
In-Reply-To: <19980803092452.N21892 at freebie.lemis.com>; from Greg Lehey on Mon, Aug 03, 1998 at 09:24:52AM +0930
Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
On Mon, Aug 03, 1998 at 09:24:52AM +0930, Greg Lehey wrote:
> On Monday, 3 August 1998 at 9:35:17 +1000, Warren Toomey wrote:
> > In article by Greg Lehey:
> >>> Hmm. Looks like we need a larger umbrella group which caters for the
> >>> preservation, use and development of all Unix varieties past and present.
> >>> I nominate the name The Unix Society ...
> >>> Comments on the suggestion of `The Unix Society' as a name? I'm avoiding
> >>> using UNIX as it's a trademark, and it's an adjective.
> >>
> >> I find the spelling "Unix" looks like the kind of mistake that
> >> people make when they're not aware of these niceties, so I'd prefer
> >> not to use it.
> >>
> >> More generally, though, there's nothing in the name that suggests
> >> anything to do with the history of the system. For all it says to the
> >> outside world, it's a new competitor to USENIX.
> >
> > Hmm, I don't like the all-caps UNIX, looks ugly. This is probably a taste
> > thing. I wanted to avoid the word `preservation', as people like Steven,
> > Michael and others are still maintaining, using and developing these systems.
> >
> > We need a sub-committee to come up with a new name :-) My next suggestion is
> > /The UNIX Heritage Society/i
>
> Sounds a lot better. Time for some other comments, when the rest of
> the world wakes up.
Awake! I fully agree with all of Greg's statements. Btw. the original way of
writing UNIX was actually unix. Small caps. Of course, using troff you could
take advantage of scaling fonts and say \s-2UNIX\s+2. I'm not sure about the
feeling of dmr and colleagues with respect to UNIX, but I remember him having
a heavy disrespect for STREAMS as compared to streams. The thing is that with
email when saying STREAMS you actually shout, which non of us intend to.
Joerg
--
Joerg B. Micheel Email: <joerg at krdl.org.sg>
SingAREN Technology Center Phone: +65 7705577
Kent Ridge Digital Labs (pron: curdle) Fax: +65 7795966
11 Science Park Road Pager: +65 96016020
Singapore Science Park II Plan: Troubleshooting ATM
117685 Singapore Networks and Applications
Received: (from major at localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA12295
for pups-liszt; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 12:43:43 +1000 (EST)
Received: from mgate.nwnexus.com (mgate.nwnexus.com [206.63.63.200])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA12290
for <pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 12:43:37 +1000 (EST)
Received: from halcyon.com (blv-lx103-ip27.nwnexus.net [206.63.41.77])
by mgate.nwnexus.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA15396;
Sun, 2 Aug 1998 19:42:50 -0700
Message-ID: <35C52376.7A546F4 at halcyon.com>
Date: Sun, 02 Aug 1998 19:41:58 -0700
From: "David C. Jenner" <djenner@halcyon.com>
Reply-To: djenner at halcyon.com
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: Greg Lehey <grog at lemis.com>
CC: Michael Sokolov <msokolov at blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu>,
pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: The Unix Society
References: <9808030052.AA18331 at blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu> <35C51258.2C635E5A at halcyon.com> <19980803111338.W21892 at freebie.lemis.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
I don't think I'm saying what you think I said? I not trying to
restrict it to nothing, or even not 32-bit.
But then it's Sunday night here, and Monday morning there, so maybe
I'm not clear about what I said!?
Dave
Greg Lehey wrote:
>
> On Sunday, 2 August 1998 at 18:28:56 -0700, David C. Jenner wrote:
> > I think he has a point here:
> >
> > Restrict it to whatever the Ancient Unix license from SCO
> > (and any equivalent licenses yet to emerge) covers. In fact,
> > an objective could be to try to ADD more systems from vendors
> > (like Venix, even Xenix) who required the AT&T license.
>
> That's rather conservative, isn't it? If we had done that previously,
> there would never now have been an SCO licence for 16 bit UNIX. If we
> do it now, there will never be a license for 32 bit UNIX.
>
> Greg
Received: (from major at localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA12306
for pups-liszt; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 12:45:16 +1000 (EST)
Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA12301
for <pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 12:45:11 +1000 (EST)
Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137])
by allegro.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) with ESMTP id MAA12075;
Mon, 3 Aug 1998 12:15:01 +0930 (CST)
Received: (from grog at localhost)
by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) id MAA25665;
Mon, 3 Aug 1998 12:14:56 +0930 (CST)
Message-ID: <19980803121455.D25574 at freebie.lemis.com>
Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 12:14:55 +0930
From: Greg Lehey <grog@lemis.com>
To: djenner at halcyon.com
Cc: Michael Sokolov <msokolov at blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu>,
pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: The Unix Society
References: <9808030052.AA18331 at blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu> <35C51258.2C635E5A at halcyon.com> <19980803111338.W21892 at freebie.lemis.com> <35C52376.7A546F4 at halcyon.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i
In-Reply-To: <35C52376.7A546F4 at halcyon.com>; from David C. Jenner on Sun, Aug 02, 1998 at 07:41:58PM -0700
WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog
Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia
Phone: +61-8-8388-8286
Fax: +61-8-8388-8725
Mobile: +61-41-739-7062
Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
On Sunday, 2 August 1998 at 19:41:58 -0700, David C. Jenner wrote:
> I don't think I'm saying what you think I said? I not trying to
> restrict it to nothing, or even not 32-bit.
>
> But then it's Sunday night here, and Monday morning there, so maybe
> I'm not clear about what I said!?
>
> Greg Lehey wrote:
>>
>> On Sunday, 2 August 1998 at 18:28:56 -0700, David C. Jenner wrote:
>>> I think he has a point here:
>>>
>>> Restrict it to whatever the Ancient Unix license from SCO
>>> (and any equivalent licenses yet to emerge) covers. In fact,
>>> an objective could be to try to ADD more systems from vendors
>>> (like Venix, even Xenix) who required the AT&T license.
OK. The current SCO license is limited specifically to 16 bis
systems. We'd like to get, say, System V as well.
Greg
--
See complete headers for address and phone numbers
finger grog at lemis.com for PGP public key
Received: (from major at localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA12348
for pups-liszt; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 12:51:00 +1000 (EST)
Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA12343
for <pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 12:50:56 +1000 (EST)
Received: (from wkt at localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id MAA13502 for pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 12:51:22 +1000 (EST)
From: Warren Toomey <wkt@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199808030251.MAA13502 at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Extending the cheap SCO src license
To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation)
Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 12:51:22 +1000 (EST)
In-Reply-To: <19980803121455.D25574 at freebie.lemis.com> from Greg Lehey at "Aug 3, 98 12:14:55 pm"
Reply-To: wkt at cs.adfa.oz.au
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
In article by Greg Lehey:
> OK. The current SCO license is limited specifically to 16 bit
> systems. We'd like to get, say, System V as well.
>
> Greg
After negotiating with SCO, I can safely say that they won't make System V
cheaply available for any system, yet. Heck, they wouldn't even let us have
the crippled System V for the PDP-11.
You might be lucky to get System III added to the source license, and separate
binary-only licenses for certain System V systems. That's another battle, tho.
Warren
Received: (from major at localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA12393
for pups-liszt; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 13:06:41 +1000 (EST)
Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA12388
for <pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 13:06:37 +1000 (EST)
Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137])
by allegro.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) with ESMTP id MAA12131;
Mon, 3 Aug 1998 12:36:30 +0930 (CST)
Received: (from grog at localhost)
by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) id MAA25734;
Mon, 3 Aug 1998 12:36:29 +0930 (CST)
Message-ID: <19980803123629.E25574 at freebie.lemis.com>
Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 12:36:29 +0930
From: Greg Lehey <grog@lemis.com>
To: wkt at cs.adfa.oz.au, PDP Unix Preservation <pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Re: Extending the cheap SCO src license
References: <19980803121455.D25574 at freebie.lemis.com> <199808030251.MAA13502 at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i
In-Reply-To: <199808030251.MAA13502 at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>; from Warren Toomey on Mon, Aug 03, 1998 at 12:51:22PM +1000
WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog
Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia
Phone: +61-8-8388-8286
Fax: +61-8-8388-8725
Mobile: +61-41-739-7062
Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
On Monday, 3 August 1998 at 12:51:22 +1000, Warren Toomey wrote:
> In article by Greg Lehey:
>> OK. The current SCO license is limited specifically to 16 bit
>> systems. We'd like to get, say, System V as well.
>
> After negotiating with SCO, I can safely say that they won't make System V
> cheaply available for any system, yet. Heck, they wouldn't even let us have
> the crippled System V for the PDP-11.
Yet. What did the situation look like for the Seventh Edition 5 years
ago?
> You might be lucky to get System III added to the source license,
> and separate binary-only licenses for certain System V
> systems. That's another battle, tho.
Sure. I was just saying we shouldn't accept the status quo, not that
we should go tilting at windmills.
Greg
--
See complete headers for address and phone numbers
finger grog at lemis.com for PGP public key
Received: (from major at localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA12418
for pups-liszt; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 13:12:22 +1000 (EST)
Received: from blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu (blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu [129.22.50.4])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id NAA12413
for <pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 13:12:17 +1000 (EST)
Received: by blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu (5.67/MS-InetSite-1.1)
id AA18488; Sun, 2 Aug 98 23:12:49 -0400
Date: Sun, 2 Aug 98 23:12:49 -0400
From: msokolov@blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu (Michael Sokolov)
Message-Id: <9808030312.AA18488 at blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu>
To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: The Unix Society
Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
Warren Toomey <wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> writes:
> Hmm, I don't like the all-caps UNIX, looks ugly. This is probably a taste
> thing.
It is absolutely crucial, since it emphasizes that we are talking about
the one single system named UNIX, rather than any of its teenage "free"
clones.
Sincerely,
Michael Sokolov
Phone: 216-368-6888 (Office) 440-449-0299 (Home) 216-217-2579 (Cellular)
ARPA Internet SMTP mail: msokolov at blackwidow.CWRU.Edu
Received: (from major at localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA12427
for pups-liszt; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 13:13:47 +1000 (EST)
Received: from blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu (blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu [129.22.50.4])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id NAA12422
for <pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 13:13:42 +1000 (EST)
Received: by blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu (5.67/MS-InetSite-1.1)
id AA18492; Sun, 2 Aug 98 23:14:16 -0400
Date: Sun, 2 Aug 98 23:14:16 -0400
From: msokolov@blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu (Michael Sokolov)
Message-Id: <9808030314.AA18492 at blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu>
To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: The Unix Society
Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
Warren Toomey <wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> writes:
> I wanted to avoid the word `preservation', as people like Steven,
> Michael and others are still maintaining, using and developing these
> systems.
Yes!
However, later you write:
> My next suggestion is
> /The UNIX Heritage Society/i
Nee, see below.
David C. Jenner <djenner at halcyon.com> writes:
> If this is the case, the "Preservation" part of PUPS is OK, since
> what we are trying to do is preserve the use of this strain of
> system software.
No, no, PLEASE get rid of that "preservation" stigma. It's like a brand
on a slave, a constant reminder of limits and constraints. Terms like
"preservation", "historical", "heritage", "primordial", "ancient", etc. all
suggest something of purely historical value. This is EXTREMELY insulting
to those of us for whom True UNIX(R) is the ONLY multiuser operating
system.
> Primordial Unix Preservation Society.
Same problem. Why not Proper UNIX(R) Patriot Society?
> (I really don't want to change my "pups" email alias!)
I agree. Hence my suggestion above.
Sincerely,
Michael Sokolov
Phone: 216-368-6888 (Office) 440-449-0299 (Home) 216-217-2579 (Cellular)
ARPA Internet SMTP mail: msokolov at blackwidow.CWRU.Edu
Received: (from major at localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA12441
for pups-liszt; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 13:14:13 +1000 (EST)
Received: from blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu (blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu [129.22.50.4])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id NAA12436
for <pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 13:14:06 +1000 (EST)
Received: by blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu (5.67/MS-InetSite-1.1)
id AA18496; Sun, 2 Aug 98 23:14:39 -0400
Date: Sun, 2 Aug 98 23:14:39 -0400
From: msokolov@blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu (Michael Sokolov)
Message-Id: <9808030314.AA18496 at blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu>
To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: The Unix Society
Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
Warren Toomey <wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> writes:
> I'd disagree with that last sentence, as it excludes System V.
Yes, you are right.
> Keep it to systems which require a UNIX source license, then?
Yes!
Sincerely,
Michael Sokolov
Phone: 216-368-6888 (Office) 440-449-0299 (Home) 216-217-2579 (Cellular)
ARPA Internet SMTP mail: msokolov at blackwidow.CWRU.Edu
Received: (from major at localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA12448
for pups-liszt; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 13:14:50 +1000 (EST)
Received: from blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu (blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu [129.22.50.4])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id NAA12443
for <pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 13:14:42 +1000 (EST)
Received: by blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu (5.67/MS-InetSite-1.1)
id AA18511; Sun, 2 Aug 98 23:15:15 -0400
Date: Sun, 2 Aug 98 23:15:15 -0400
From: msokolov@blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu (Michael Sokolov)
Message-Id: <9808030315.AA18511 at blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu>
To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: The Unix Society
Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
Greg Lehey <grog at lemis.com> writes:
> [...] an SCO licence for 16 bit UNIX. If we
> do it now, there will never be a license for 32 bit UNIX.
Excuse me, sir, I have to make a point here. The SCO license _DOES_
cover 32-bit UNIX(R), namely 32V! 32V is the first version of UNIX for 32-
bit machines aka VAXen, and it's the mother of EVERYTHING known today as
West Coast UNIX, from 3BSD to the freebies, whether for VAXen or other 32-
bit CPUs.
As I have said all along, PUPS's pre-hung-up'ness on PDP-11s has been
the source of a lot of grief for us the VAX lovers. It is the reason why
SCO's license talks so much about PDP-11s and the reason I have had so much
trouble obtaining the software I need, since everyone believes that the SCO
license is limited to 16-bit toys. Of course it is not, and in fact it is
the reason why Marshall Kirk McKusick is releasing the CD-ROMs with CSRG's
code (80% of which is 32-bit), but thanks to PUPS's pre-hung-up'ness on
PDP-11s, try to explain this to people!
Thanks Daemon the gang is finally beginning to realize that UNIX(R) runs
on more than just PDP-11s.
Sincerely,
Michael Sokolov
Phone: 216-368-6888 (Office) 440-449-0299 (Home) 216-217-2579 (Cellular)
ARPA Internet SMTP mail: msokolov at blackwidow.CWRU.Edu
Received: (from major at localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA12458
for pups-liszt; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 13:15:14 +1000 (EST)
Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA12453
for <pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 13:15:10 +1000 (EST)
Received: (from wkt at localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id NAA15369 for pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 13:15:35 +1000 (EST)
From: Warren Toomey <wkt@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199808030315.NAA15369 at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Re: Extending the cheap SCO src license
To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation)
Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 13:15:35 +1000 (EST)
In-Reply-To: <19980803123629.E25574 at freebie.lemis.com> from Greg Lehey at "Aug 3, 98 12:36:29 pm"
Reply-To: wkt at cs.adfa.oz.au
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
In article by Greg Lehey:
> > After negotiating with SCO, I can safely say that they won't make System V
> > cheaply available for any system, yet. Heck, they wouldn't even let us have
> > the crippled System V for the PDP-11.
>
> Yet. What did the situation look like for the Seventh Edition 5 years
> ago? I was just saying we shouldn't accept the status quo, not that
> we should go tilting at windmills.
> Greg
I agree that we should continue to lobby SCO, and more importantly so now
that we have a foothold. I'm just pointing out the current `reality', but
I'm sure it will change over time.
Warren
Received: (from major at localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA12485
for pups-liszt; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 13:16:35 +1000 (EST)
Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA12480
for <pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 13:16:32 +1000 (EST)
Received: (from wkt at localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id NAA15399 for pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 13:16:57 +1000 (EST)
From: Warren Toomey <wkt@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199808030316.NAA15399 at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Re: The Unix Society
To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation)
Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 13:16:57 +1000 (EST)
In-Reply-To: <9808030312.AA18488 at blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu> from Michael Sokolov at "Aug 2, 98 11:12:49 pm"
Reply-To: wkt at cs.adfa.oz.au
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
In article by Michael Sokolov:
> Warren Toomey <wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> writes:
> > Hmm, I don't like the all-caps UNIX, looks ugly. This is probably a taste
> > thing.
>
> It is absolutely crucial, since it emphasizes that we are talking about
> the one single system named UNIX, rather than any of its teenage "free"
> clones.
If having a source license was a requirement for the systems we cover,
then I'd say this was pretty reasonable.
Warren
Received: (from major at localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA12572
for pups-liszt; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 13:26:33 +1000 (EST)
Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA12559
for <pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 13:26:26 +1000 (EST)
Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137])
by allegro.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) with ESMTP id MAA12218;
Mon, 3 Aug 1998 12:56:16 +0930 (CST)
Received: (from grog at localhost)
by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) id MAA25780;
Mon, 3 Aug 1998 12:56:16 +0930 (CST)
Message-ID: <19980803125616.F25574 at freebie.lemis.com>
Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 12:56:16 +0930
From: Greg Lehey <grog@lemis.com>
To: Michael Sokolov <msokolov at blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu>,
pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: The Unix Society
References: <9808030314.AA18492 at blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i
In-Reply-To: <9808030314.AA18492 at blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu>; from Michael Sokolov on Sun, Aug 02, 1998 at 11:14:16PM -0400
WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog
Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia
Phone: +61-8-8388-8286
Fax: +61-8-8388-8725
Mobile: +61-41-739-7062
Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
On Sunday, 2 August 1998 at 23:14:16 -0400, Michael Sokolov wrote:
> Warren Toomey <wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> writes:
>> If this is the case, the "Preservation" part of PUPS is OK, since
>> what we are trying to do is preserve the use of this strain of
>> system software.
>
> No, no, PLEASE get rid of that "preservation" stigma. It's like a brand
> on a slave, a constant reminder of limits and constraints. Terms like
> "preservation", "historical", "heritage", "primordial", "ancient", etc. all
> suggest something of purely historical value. This is EXTREMELY insulting
> to those of us for whom True UNIX(R) is the ONLY multiuser operating
> system.
I would have a problem being a "Patriot".
Greg
--
See complete headers for address and phone numbers
finger grog at lemis.com for PGP public key
Received: (from major at localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA12628
for pups-liszt; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 13:30:47 +1000 (EST)
Received: from blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu (blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu [129.22.50.4])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id NAA12623
for <pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 13:30:41 +1000 (EST)
Received: by blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu (5.67/MS-InetSite-1.1)
id AA18573; Sun, 2 Aug 98 23:31:14 -0400
Date: Sun, 2 Aug 98 23:31:14 -0400
From: msokolov@blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu (Michael Sokolov)
Message-Id: <9808030331.AA18573 at blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu>
To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: The Unix Society
Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
Greg Lehey <grog at lemis.com> writes:
> OK. The current SCO license is limited specifically to 16 bis
> systems.
You still don't get it. WRONG!
Quoting from the license text:
> 3. LICENSED SOURCE CODE PRODUCTS
>
> The SOURCE CODE PRODUCTS to which SCO grants rights under this
> Agreement are restricted to the following UNIX Operating Systems,
> including SUCCESSOR OPERATING SYSTEMs, that operate on the 16-Bit
> PDP-11 CPU and early versions of the 32-Bit UNIX Operating System
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> with specific exclusion of UNIX System V and successor operating
> systems:
>
> 16-Bit UNIX Editions 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7
> 32-bit 32V
^^^^^^^^^^^
Do you get it know? Probably not. Oh well.
Sincerely,
Michael Sokolov
Phone: 216-368-6888 (Office) 440-449-0299 (Home) 216-217-2579 (Cellular)
ARPA Internet SMTP mail: msokolov at blackwidow.CWRU.Edu
Received: (from major at localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA12732
for pups-liszt; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 13:42:26 +1000 (EST)
Received: from blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu (blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu [129.22.50.4])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id NAA12727
for <pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 13:42:20 +1000 (EST)
Received: by blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu (5.67/MS-InetSite-1.1)
id AA18616; Sun, 2 Aug 98 23:42:53 -0400
Date: Sun, 2 Aug 98 23:42:53 -0400
From: msokolov@blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu (Michael Sokolov)
Message-Id: <9808030342.AA18616 at blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu>
To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: The Unix Society
Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
Warren Toomey <wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> writes:
> If having a source license was a requirement for the systems we cover,
> then I'd say this was pretty reasonable.
It is, isn't it?
Sincerely,
Michael Sokolov
Phone: 216-368-6888 (Office) 440-449-0299 (Home) 216-217-2579 (Cellular)
ARPA Internet SMTP mail: msokolov at blackwidow.CWRU.Edu
Received: (from major at localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA12785
for pups-liszt; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 13:45:30 +1000 (EST)
Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA12780
for <pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 13:45:26 +1000 (EST)
Received: (from wkt at localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id NAA15453 for pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 13:45:52 +1000 (EST)
From: Warren Toomey <wkt@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199808030345.NAA15453 at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: What to do now with PUPS
To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation)
Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 13:45:52 +1000 (EST)
In-Reply-To: <9808030315.AA18511 at blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu> from Michael Sokolov at "Aug 2, 98 11:15:15 pm"
Reply-To: wkt at cs.adfa.oz.au
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
In article by Michael Sokolov:
> As I have said all along, PUPS's pre-hung-up'ness on PDP-11s has been
> the source of a lot of grief for us the VAX lovers. It is the reason why
> SCO's license talks so much about PDP-11s and the reason I have had so much
> trouble obtaining the software I need, since everyone believes that the SCO
> license is limited to 16-bit toys. Of course it is not, and in fact it is
> the reason why Marshall Kirk McKusick is releasing the CD-ROMs with CSRG's
> code (80% of which is 32-bit), but thanks to PUPS's pre-hung-up'ness on
> PDP-11s, try to explain this to people!
>
> Thanks Daemon the gang is finally beginning to realize that UNIX(R) runs
> on more than just PDP-11s.
>
> Michael Sokolov
I'd just like to comment on Michael's e-mail, just for the record. The PDP-11
UNIX Preservation Society was, at one point, just me. I'd had help from
Steven Schultz, Tim Shoppa, John Wilson and Torsten Hippe, and my personal
goal was to get copies of 6th and 7th Edition Unix, for historical reasons.
Since then, people with similar interests have accumulated. We've set up a
mailing list, web page etc.
Steven and I took months to lobby SCO to make source licenses available. We
started in late '95/early '96. Again, we were driven by our own personal goals
of making cheap licenses for PDP-11 UNIXes available. We were also guided
by the web-based survey, see http://minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au/PUPS/pdpquiz_sum.html,
which showed an awful lot more interest for PDP-11 UNIXes than 32-bit UNIXes.
Yes, PUPS has been hung up on PDP-11s. There's no denying that. It's a result
of the personal drives that Steven, I, and the other active members of the
mailing list have. If we have caused grief to the VAX users, it was
unintentional.
The license that we negotiated with SCO was based as much on our personal
goals as on pragmatics. During the negotiations, it became apparent that:
+ There was a substantial bloc at SCO who didn't want ANY license
+ For the rest, Research Editions 1 to 7 was ok
+ 32V was dubious: most people didn't want this licensed
+ System III was also dubious
+ System V was definitely right out: nobody wanted this licensed
The fact that we got 32V on the SCO license was, in my opinion, damn lucky,
even though I pushed and pushed and pushed for this to be included. SCO,
for their part, probably feel that they have limited the `damage' by only
licensing the 16-bit systems, and 32V (grudgingly).
Now why was I pushing 32V so hard? Because I knew it would open the path
for CSRG to release the BSD flavours. This is the ONLY reason why I fought
so hard for it to be included in the license.
Hopefully this has filled in some of the background on the behind-the-scenes
work. I agree that, up to now, the effort has concentrated on the 16-bit
systems. I knew that, by getting 32V into the license, it would give scope
for the 32-bit systems. At the same time, there was NO WAY that SCO would
have licensed any other 32-bit system. The license we have reflects SCO's
legal concerns as much as the negotiators' PDP preference.
However, 32V is licensed, and Kirk will be selling the CRSG BSD releases
on a 4-CD set next week. A fair proportion of PDP-11 UNIX history has been
saved. Now it's time for those with a preference for other systems to
extend what has been achieved. Go for it!
Warren
Received: (from major at localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA12836
for pups-liszt; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 14:03:57 +1000 (EST)
Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA12831
for <pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 14:03:53 +1000 (EST)
Received: (from wkt at localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA15507 for pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 14:04:19 +1000 (EST)
From: Warren Toomey <wkt@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199808030404.OAA15507 at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Re: The UNIX Heritage Society
To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation)
Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 14:04:19 +1000 (EST)
In-Reply-To: <19980803125616.F25574 at freebie.lemis.com> from Greg Lehey at "Aug 3, 98 12:56:16 pm"
Reply-To: wkt at cs.adfa.oz.au
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
In article by Greg Lehey:
Michael writes:
> > No, no, PLEASE get rid of that "preservation" stigma. It's like a brand
> > on a slave, a constant reminder of limits and constraints. Terms like
> > "preservation", "historical", "heritage", "primordial", "ancient", etc. all
> > suggest something of purely historical value. This is EXTREMELY insulting
> > to those of us for whom True UNIX(R) is the ONLY multiuser operating
> > system.
>
> I would have a problem being a "Patriot".
>
> Greg
Heritage means: that which may be inherited. I think this is appropriate,
as we have all inherited a wonderful system from Ken and Dennis. In fact,
we've inherited the UNIX paradigm, which influences the way we think.
My dictionary says a patriot is one who is zealous for his country's
freedom or rights, and a zealot is an uncompromising or extreme partisan
or fanatic.
I would also have a problem being a "Patriot". If I was uncompromising,
we would have no cheap SCO license. I don't think we need to retro-fit a
name into the PUPS acronym.
I'm still in favour of The UNIX Heritage Society.
For those unaccustomed to the amount of traffic on the PUPS list,
don't forget that you can switch to the digest version.
echo 'subscribe pups-digest' | mail majordomo at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Warren
Received: (from major at localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA12985
for pups-liszt; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 14:54:42 +1000 (EST)
Received: from nighthawk.iti.gov.sg (nighthawk.iti.gov.sg [192.122.131.51])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id OAA12980
for <pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 14:54:35 +1000 (EST)
Received: (from mailer at localhost) by nighthawk.iti.gov.sg (8.6.11/8.6.11) id MAA12622; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 12:20:46 +0800
Received: from mailhub.iti.gov.sg(192.122.132.132) by nighthawk.iti.gov.sg via smap (V1.3)
id sma012619; Mon Aug 3 12:20:28 1998
Received: (from joerg at localhost)
by iti.gov.sg (8.8.8/8.8.5) id MAA04106;
Mon, 3 Aug 1998 12:00:43 +0800 (SGT)
Message-ID: <19980803120042.27955 at krdl.org.sg>
Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 12:00:42 +0800
From: Joerg Micheel <joerg@krdl.org.sg>
To: Michael Sokolov <msokolov at blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu>
Cc: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: The Unix Society
References: <9808030331.AA18573 at blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88e
In-Reply-To: <9808030331.AA18573 at blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu>; from Michael Sokolov on Sun, Aug 02, 1998 at 11:31:14PM -0400
Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
Mikhail,
On Sun, Aug 02, 1998 at 11:31:14PM -0400, Michael Sokolov wrote:
>
> Do you get it know? Probably not. Oh well.
Last time I met Greg he was still able to read, although he needs glasses already.
I think that his glasses actually do a very good job since he was figuring that
the license explicitely blocks access to System V and friends (Please read your own
email again).
The thing is that there are people out there who really enjoy the PDP-11 as a smart
machine. Those people presumably have written code for this machine in assembler.
Another group of people is interested in the early roots of unix. The PDP-11 in
that case serves as a host for this interest. But the historic interest does not
stop at the hardware of the PDP-11, it is rather an interest in the full life cycle
of the OS. 32V, while important, is really a hack rather than a 32bit port of the
UNIX or BSD operating system. Those people who make statements about 32bit UNIX not
being available are very likely aware of this fact, either because they where there
at the time this happend, or, like myself, have devoured every interesting UNIX book
around and have also come across Peter H. Salus' A quater century of UNIX. You might
find it interesting to read, too.
With respect to PUPS I do understand that we are interested in the history of UNIX
and that the term Warren coined fits exactly our idea. There is nothing wrong with
renaming PUPS but leave the email alias as it is. Those interested in the history
of the society (we are getting recursive on history by now) can read on the Web Page
that we originally dealt with the Preservation of the PDP-11 UNIX only.
Regards,
Joerg
--
Joerg B. Micheel Email: <joerg at krdl.org.sg>
SingAREN Technology Center Phone: +65 7705577
Kent Ridge Digital Labs (pron: curdle) Fax: +65 7795966
11 Science Park Road Pager: +65 96016020
Singapore Science Park II Plan: Troubleshooting ATM
117685 Singapore Networks and Applications
Received: (from major at localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA13010
for pups-liszt; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 15:00:35 +1000 (EST)
Received: from europe.std.com (europe.std.com [199.172.62.20])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA13005
for <pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 15:00:29 +1000 (EST)
Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.7.6/BZS-8-1.0)
id BAA09014; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 01:00:18 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from localhost by world.std.com (TheWorld/Spike-2.0)
id AA11935; Sun, 2 Aug 1998 22:00:18 -0700
Date: Sun, 2 Aug 1998 22:00:18 -0700 (PST)
From: Brian D Chase <bdc@world.std.com>
To: PDP Unix Preservation <pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Re: The Unix Society
In-Reply-To: <199808022335.JAA12929 at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <Pine.SGI.3.95.980802215441.8525C-100000 at world.std.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
On Mon, 3 Aug 1998, Warren Toomey wrote:
> Hmm, I don't like the all-caps UNIX, looks ugly. This is probably a taste
> thing. I wanted to avoid the word `preservation', as people like Steven,
> Michael and others are still maintaining, using and developing these systems.
>
> We need a sub-committee to come up with a new name :-) My next suggestion is
> /The UNIX Heritage Society/i
I seem to recall a direct quote of either Thompson or Ritchie saying that
they'd intended to use the name "Unix" instead of "UNIX" but that is what
the OS was trademarked with by the Bell Labs lawyers. It may have been on
one of their personal web pages that I read it.
-brian.
---
Brian "JARAI" Chase | http://world.std.com/~bdc/ | VAXZilla LIVES!!!
Received: (from major at localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA14184
for pups-liszt; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 23:11:15 +1000 (EST)
Received: from europe.std.com (europe.std.com [199.172.62.20])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA14179
for <pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 23:11:08 +1000 (EST)
Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.7.6/BZS-8-1.0)
id JAA05420; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 09:11:03 -0400 (EDT)
Received: by world.std.com (TheWorld/Spike-2.0)
id AA10670; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 09:11:02 -0400
Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 09:11:02 -0400
From: allisonp@world.std.com (Allison J Parent)
Message-Id: <199808031311.AA10670 at world.std.com>
To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: The UNIX Heritage Society
Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
< Heritage means: that which may be inherited. I think this is appropriate
^^^
has
Heritiage is generally historical in context be it previous or present
tense for the future.
Preservation in teh case of PDP-11 (and otehr 16bit) was needed or it may
have been lost. One assumes the license grantors actually have complete
sources. In the case of at least on other OS they had the license but
little of the code.
< as we have all inherited a wonderful system from Ken and Dennis. In fact
< we've inherited the UNIX paradigm, which influences the way we think.
True.
The key here is there are two types of OSs, retired(not commercially
viable or no support) and those that have commercial value.
Let us not forget Mike is trying to develop a commercially viable OS
that is not free or shareware.
Also by and large Mike is in the process of doing what other call
archeology. One must resore and understand the structure before building
upon it.
The patriot stuff, pure poof.
Allison
Received: (from major at localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA14295
for pups-liszt; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 23:47:33 +1000 (EST)
Received: from seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu (seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu [152.1.88.4])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA14290
for <pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 23:47:27 +1000 (EST)
Received: (from rdkeys at localhost)
by seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA17517
for pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 09:42:55 -0400 (EDT)
(envelope-from rdkeys)
From: "User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys" <rdkeys@seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu>
Message-Id: <199808031342.JAA17517 at seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu>
Subject: Re: Extending the cheap SCO src license
In-Reply-To: <199808030251.MAA13502 at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> from Warren Toomey at "Aug 3, 98 12:51:22 pm"
To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 09:42:53 -0400 (EDT)
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL38 (25)]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
> > OK. The current SCO license is limited specifically to 16 bit
> > systems. We'd like to get, say, System V as well.
> >
> > Greg
>
> After negotiating with SCO, I can safely say that they won't make System V
> cheaply available for any system, yet. Heck, they wouldn't even let us have
> the crippled System V for the PDP-11.
Do any of us really want SysV? One can get that in a free license for unixware
or such, as it is, if I am understanding things correctly.
> You might be lucky to get System III added to the source license, and separate
> binary-only licenses for certain System V systems. That's another battle, tho.
Gee, I sense I have stirred up a wee bit of a hornets nest. For the sake of
discussion, maybe that is good.
What I had originally thought was that it might be possible to include under
the PUPS banner (or whatever it is to be called {PUPS is fine to me}), to
include orphan unices. Let me suggest that what I mean by orphan unices is
a flavor of unix in binary or source that is essentially commercially past
history. That would specifically be to keep from camping on SCO's income.
What might be considered an orphan unix? One might consider things like
the BSD tree to be orphan, as it relates to non-commercial use (one would
consider BSDI commercial, but most of the others non-commercial maybe).
One might consider something like Coherent to be non-commercial anymore.
Although that is not a ``true'' unix, it sure looks and feels the same
and quacks very much like a V7 or early SysV. Xenix falls into the same
quacks like a duck category. Although Xenix is still used commercially,
it may be be time to begin to consider that we might, in due time, aproach
SCO to offer a hobby style Xenix license of some sort. I would not expect
them to offer source, although that might be workable after time. One might
consider the old RT and PS/2 unices (AOS and AIX 1 and 2) to be orphanware.
I am sure there are others. Perhaps even the 3Bx kind of thing could be
suitably binary hobby licensed. I would have a hard time imagining that
SCO would consider the old ATT boxes any sort of a moneymaker these days.
Where SCO would feel that we are too close to home, then maybe only a
binary license of some sort would be all that we could collectively expect.
What about something like 386BSD? That began in the 4.3BSD era if I am
reading things corectly, and it sure walks and quacks like the real thing.
These kinds of things, I would think, are of merit to keep archives of,
for the purposes and goals that we collectively seem be be heading towards.
Is this reasonable?
Just thinking out loud.....
If nothing else, the discussion is good.....
Bob Keys
Received: (from major at localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA14465
for pups-liszt; Tue, 4 Aug 1998 00:16:35 +1000 (EST)
Received: from seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu (seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu [152.1.88.4])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA14460
for <pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Tue, 4 Aug 1998 00:16:29 +1000 (EST)
Received: (from rdkeys at localhost)
by seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA17764;
Mon, 3 Aug 1998 10:11:54 -0400 (EDT)
(envelope-from rdkeys)
From: "User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys" <rdkeys@seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu>
Message-Id: <199808031411.KAA17764 at seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu>
Subject: Re: The UNIX Heritage Society
In-Reply-To: <199808031311.AA10670 at world.std.com> from Allison J Parent at "Aug 3, 98 09:11:02 am"
To: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent)
Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 10:11:52 -0400 (EDT)
Cc: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL38 (25)]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
> Preservation in teh case of PDP-11 (and otehr 16bit) was needed or it may
> have been lost. One assumes the license grantors actually have complete
> sources. In the case of at least on other OS they had the license but
> little of the code.
This is a most interesting point, and one we all need to consider.
I will interpret from Allison's remarks that CP/M may be being referred
to here. In that case, it was mostly all lost sources, and only a little
was found (and a lot of leftovers kept by the early hacker types). It would
NOT have been possible to recreate or resurrect it without such help.
The one thing that I have noted in the 28 years I have played with computers
(only the last 20 seriously), is that sources tend to get very lost in the
passage of time. Alas, if you try to recreate or resurrect the old early
boxes, you are lost without the tidbits of sources, binaries, and OS notes
that seem to be all to vaporware, anymore. So much of it is NOT kept around
by the companies. And, many of the companies are bellyup, or have passed
through so many hands, that the original materials are long forgotten or
gone.
Somehow, we need to collectively keep enough of the bits and pieces so
that down the road, others may be able to see what it was actually all
about. I heartily applaud the efforts of all the various groups like
the PUPS, and the efforts of folks like Warren and Kirk to keep the
unix flavors alive.
> The key here is there are two types of OSs, retired(not commercially
> viable or no support) and those that have commercial value.
I would expect that our collective interests center on the former,
even though some/many of us may dabble in it commercially/professionally.
Bob Keys
Received: (from major at localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA17033
for pups-liszt; Tue, 4 Aug 1998 12:23:27 +1000 (EST)
Received: from nighthawk.iti.gov.sg (nighthawk.iti.gov.sg [192.122.131.51])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id MAA17028
for <pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Tue, 4 Aug 1998 12:23:19 +1000 (EST)
Received: (from mailer at localhost) by nighthawk.iti.gov.sg (8.6.11/8.6.11) id KAA20343; Tue, 4 Aug 1998 10:34:48 +0800
Received: from mailhub.iti.gov.sg(192.122.132.132) by nighthawk.iti.gov.sg via smap (V1.3)
id sma020334; Tue Aug 4 10:34:31 1998
Received: (from joerg at localhost)
by iti.gov.sg (8.8.8/8.8.5) id KAA29944;
Tue, 4 Aug 1998 10:14:43 +0800 (SGT)
Message-ID: <19980804101443.54947 at krdl.org.sg>
Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1998 10:14:43 +0800
From: Joerg Micheel <joerg@krdl.org.sg>
To: "User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys" <rdkeys at seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu>
Cc: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: Extending the cheap SCO src license
References: <199808030251.MAA13502 at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> <199808031342.JAA17517 at seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88e
In-Reply-To: <199808031342.JAA17517 at seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu>; from User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys on Mon, Aug 03, 1998 at 09:42:53AM -0400
Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
On Mon, Aug 03, 1998 at 09:42:53AM -0400, User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys wrote:
> > After negotiating with SCO, I can safely say that they won't make System V
> > cheaply available for any system, yet. Heck, they wouldn't even let us have
> > the crippled System V for the PDP-11.
>
> Do any of us really want SysV? One can get that in a free license for unixware
> or such, as it is, if I am understanding things correctly.
Sure, try writing a driver or some stuff that involves kernel variables - and you
are stuck. Actually, this reminds me that Sun did a large buy-out for System V and
the procedure for getting Solaris kernel sources has become dramatically more easy.
They might still send it to you for a nominal fee (last time DM 4,600), as long as
you use it for non-commercial purposes (e.g. universities, research institutes).
Anybody more detailed information on this ?
Joerg
----
Joerg B. Micheel Email: <joerg at krdl.org.sg>
SingAREN Technology Center Phone: +65 7705577
Kent Ridge Digital Labs (pron: curdle) Fax: +65 7795966
11 Science Park Road Pager: +65 96016020
Singapore Science Park II Plan: Troubleshooting ATM
117685 Singapore Networks and Applications
Received: (from major at localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA17300
for pups-liszt; Tue, 4 Aug 1998 14:15:06 +1000 (EST)
Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA17295
for <pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Tue, 4 Aug 1998 14:15:01 +1000 (EST)
Received: (from wkt at localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA17823; Tue, 4 Aug 1998 14:15:23 +1000 (EST)
From: Warren Toomey <wkt@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199808040415.OAA17823 at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Re: Extending the cheap SCO src license
To: rdkeys at seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu (User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys)
Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1998 14:15:23 +1000 (EST)
Cc: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
In-Reply-To: <199808031342.JAA17517 at seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> from "User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys" at "Aug 3, 98 09:42:53 am"
Reply-To: wkt at cs.adfa.oz.au
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
In article by User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys:
> Do any of us really want SysV?
Not me :-)
> Where SCO would feel that we are too close to home, then maybe only a
> binary license of some sort would be all that we could collectively expect.
> What about something like 386BSD? That began in the 4.3BSD era if I am
I've got 386BSD 0.1 sources, but no binaries.
> reading things corectly, and it sure walks and quacks like the real thing.
> These kinds of things, I would think, are of merit to keep archives of,
> for the purposes and goals that we collectively seem be be heading towards.
I collect most anything :-) UNIX, Unix, [1234]BSD, Minix etc etc.
Don't really want System III or V though, or Slowaris.
Ciao,
Warren
Received: (from major at localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA17431
for pups-liszt; Tue, 4 Aug 1998 15:10:08 +1000 (EST)
Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA17426
for <pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Tue, 4 Aug 1998 15:10:02 +1000 (EST)
Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137])
by allegro.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) with ESMTP id OAA16006;
Tue, 4 Aug 1998 14:39:49 +0930 (CST)
Received: (from grog at localhost)
by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) id OAA00313;
Tue, 4 Aug 1998 14:39:47 +0930 (CST)
Message-ID: <19980804143947.M25942 at freebie.lemis.com>
Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1998 14:39:47 +0930
From: Greg Lehey <grog@lemis.com>
To: "User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys" <rdkeys at seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu>,
pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: Extending the cheap SCO src license
References: <199808030251.MAA13502 at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> <199808031342.JAA17517 at seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i
In-Reply-To: <199808031342.JAA17517 at seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu>; from User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys on Mon, Aug 03, 1998 at 09:42:53AM -0400
WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog
Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia
Phone: +61-8-8388-8286
Fax: +61-8-8388-8725
Mobile: +61-41-739-7062
Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
On Monday, 3 August 1998 at 9:42:53 -0400, User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys wrote:
>>> OK. The current SCO license is limited specifically to 16 bit
>>> systems. We'd like to get, say, System V as well.
>>>
>>> Greg
>>
>> After negotiating with SCO, I can safely say that they won't make System V
>> cheaply available for any system, yet. Heck, they wouldn't even let us have
>> the crippled System V for the PDP-11.
>
> Do any of us really want SysV? One can get that in a free license for unixware
> or such, as it is, if I am understanding things correctly.
You don't get the source with UnixWare. And yes, I can conceive that
the sources of old versions of System V could be of interest, if only
for the computer etymologist. I have a Tandem LXN (68020 based SMP
machine, about 11 years old) which ran an interesting version of
System V.2 and V.3.0. While I was still at Tandem, I backed up the
last versions of the source (in Austin TX), and unfortunately I didn't
discover that the backup failed until I got back to Germany. AFAIK
the sources are lost forever: they scrapped the machine shortly
after.
>> You might be lucky to get System III added to the source license, and separate
>> binary-only licenses for certain System V systems. That's another battle, tho.
>
> Gee, I sense I have stirred up a wee bit of a hornets nest. For the sake of
> discussion, maybe that is good.
>
> What I had originally thought was that it might be possible to include under
> the PUPS banner (or whatever it is to be called {PUPS is fine to me}), to
> include orphan unices. Let me suggest that what I mean by orphan unices is
> a flavor of unix in binary or source that is essentially commercially past
> history. That would specifically be to keep from camping on SCO's
> income.
In principle, not a bad idea.
> What might be considered an orphan unix? One might consider things
> like the BSD tree to be orphan, as it relates to non-commercial use
> (one would consider BSDI commercial, but most of the others
> non-commercial maybe).
Well, there are plenty of people actively working on the BSD tree. I
wouldn't consider it orphan.
> One might consider something like Coherent to be non-commercial anymore.
> Although that is not a ``true'' unix, it sure looks and feels the same
> and quacks very much like a V7 or early SysV. Xenix falls into the same
> quacks like a duck category. Although Xenix is still used commercially,
> it may be be time to begin to consider that we might, in due time, aproach
> SCO to offer a hobby style Xenix license of some sort.
I think you would run into extreme resistance inside SCO at the
moment, more than you would for, say, System V Release 1. Although
it's obsolete, it wasn't that long ago (3 years?) that it was earning
more money for SCO than Open Deathtrap was.
> I would not expect them to offer source, although that might be
> workable after time. One might consider the old RT and PS/2 unices
> (AOS and AIX 1 and 2) to be orphanware. I am sure there are others.
> Perhaps even the 3Bx kind of thing could be suitably binary hobby
> licensed. I would have a hard time imagining that SCO would
> consider the old ATT boxes any sort of a moneymaker these days.
> Where SCO would feel that we are too close to home, then maybe only
> a binary license of some sort would be all that we could
> collectively expect.
What would you do with a binary license.
> What about something like 386BSD? That began in the 4.3BSD era if I
> am reading things corectly, and it sure walks and quacks like the
> real thing. These kinds of things, I would think, are of merit to
> keep archives of, for the purposes and goals that we collectively
> seem be be heading towards.
FWIW, 386BSD is available in source form. Dr. Dobbs still has a
CD-ROM that you can buy. But 386BSD also evolved into FreeBSD, NetBSD
and OpenBSD, all of which are still alive, kicking and further
developing. Anything but orphans. I'm writing this on a FreeBSD
machine.
> If nothing else, the discussion is good.....
Definitely.
Greg
--
See complete headers for address and phone numbers
finger grog at lemis.com for PGP public key
Received: (from major at localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA18632
for pups-liszt; Tue, 4 Aug 1998 22:56:43 +1000 (EST)
Received: from lion.cs.yorku.ca (lion.cs.yorku.ca [130.63.86.25])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id WAA18627
for <pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Tue, 4 Aug 1998 22:56:37 +1000 (EST)
From: norman@nose.cs.yorku.ca
Message-Id: <IAA06380 at lion.cs.yorku.ca>
Received: from [130.63.92.142] (csts-ip-2.cs.yorku.ca) by lion.cs.yorku.ca id 6379; Tue, 4 Aug 1998 08:55:59
Subject: PUPS, BUPS, BURPS, and other stomach upsets
To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Date: Tue, 04 Aug 1998 08:55:30 -0400
Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
The recent fuss seems to me to be much overdone, mainly because of
a small number of people with strong views and a restless urge to
type. Here's my view, which I hold with some strength, but with
little religious zeal.
The top of Warren's web page about PUPS says the society is
`devoted to the preservation of all information related to the
versions of Unix that ran on Digital PDPs.' It seems pretty
clear to me that his original intent was to collect and keep
historic data, not to Promote The One True Unix nor to Support
Software That We Approve Of nor to Make Money Fast. (No slur
intended on those who do want to do those things.) Certainly
that is the basis on which I joined the mailing list, and on
which I've contributed the small amount of time I've put in.
It makes sense to me that efforts to preserve post-PDP11 Unix
systems be coordinated with PUPS, whether that means folding
them into the same society or just having several groups that
share. I would suggest that a single society (even if run as
several distributed pieces) would probably be less work in the
long run, and think that `UNIX Heritage Society' is a fine name.
(Just plain `UNIX Society' is too broad; it sounds like a
duplication of USENIX.) Those who think `heritage' and
`preservation' are dirty words are, I think, missing the point;
see the paragraph above.
All of this is likely to involve more work for someone. I don't
know just who has done what to make PUPS work, but it looks to
me like the bulk of the work has fallen on Warren; certainly he
did the single hardest part, that of getting things started.
Those of us who think the society should do more things should
be prepared to put our money, labour, and whatnot where our mouths
are.
In that spirit: I'm not likely to have much time to help out for
the next few months, as I'm starting a new job, and just keeping
my project to recover the old manuals into machine-readable form
will soak up most of my spare cycles. (Apologies to all that the
samples and whatnot I'd hoped to put up on the web still aren't
up, by the way; winding down my present work commitments and
trying to arrange a graceful startup of my new ones has taken a
lot more effort than expected.) It may be possible in my new
world to help out with some computing resources, e.g. a Canadian
mirror of the PUPS archives; I'll try to plan for that in the
already-being-planned upheaval of my new world's computing environment.
If the master PUPS site is short of resources, e.g. could use
another disk or two, I'd be happy to help out with some cash.
I encourage others who can help out to speak up. Judging by the
amount of mail that has passed through the mailing list recently
(almost 5% of an RK05 by my count), there should be some spare
energy out there somewhere.
It may also be worth while to approach USENIX for support;
preserving UNIX heritage is certainly not foreign to them, and
their current president has some history of preservation work.
Norman Wilson
Received: (from major at localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA19772
for pups-liszt; Wed, 5 Aug 1998 05:24:28 +1000 (EST)
Received: from skatter.USask.Ca (skatter.usask.ca [128.233.14.1])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id FAA19762
for <pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Wed, 5 Aug 1998 05:24:19 +1000 (EST)
Received: from hydrus.USask.Ca (hydrus.usask.ca [128.233.14.27])
by skatter.USask.Ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA09338;
Tue, 4 Aug 1998 13:24:13 -0600 (CST)
From: Neil Johnson <neil@skatter.usask.ca>
Received: (from neil at localhost) by hydrus.USask.Ca (8.7.2/8.7.2) id NAA16324; Tue, 4 Aug 1998 13:24:11 -0600 (CST)
Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1998 13:24:11 -0600 (CST)
Message-Id: <199808041924.NAA16324 at hydrus.USask.Ca>
To: msokolov at blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu, pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: The Unix Society
Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
I don't like the idea of focusing the group on versions of unix with
source licences available for a number of reasons. Expensive source
licences are available for new versions of unix. If the limitation is
to an inexpensive hobbiest licence then a somewhat arbitrary price has
to be set for inexpensive. A second, and more important objection is
that we are explicitly excluding users who want to use the free PDP-11
unix binary licences. Finally, users of other vintage unixes with legal,
binary only licences would be excluded.
Neil
Received: (from major at localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA19830
for pups-liszt; Wed, 5 Aug 1998 05:48:32 +1000 (EST)
Received: from europe.std.com (europe.std.com [199.172.62.20])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id FAA19824
for <pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Wed, 5 Aug 1998 05:48:25 +1000 (EST)
Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.7.6/BZS-8-1.0)
id PAA07627; Tue, 4 Aug 1998 15:48:07 -0400 (EDT)
Received: by world.std.com (TheWorld/Spike-2.0)
id AA06220; Tue, 4 Aug 1998 15:48:07 -0400
Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1998 15:48:07 -0400
From: allisonp@world.std.com (Allison J Parent)
Message-Id: <199808041948.AA06220 at world.std.com>
To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: The Unix Society
Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
How about a direct approach.
Create UBOS, UBOS spells out to Unix Based Operating Systems. PUPs would
then be a sibling as would other potential *nix based OS forums. the key
is if you not sure, it goes to UBOS and from there vectored to the best
fit forum. Possible sibling forums could be NIX-32 for the 32bit and
NIX-16 for the other yet not defined 16bit *nix. there are also 8bit
flavors and of course 64bit ones as well. No doubt I'm missing a few.
Allison
Received: (from major at localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA19897
for pups-liszt; Wed, 5 Aug 1998 06:09:53 +1000 (EST)
Received: from aiai.ed.ac.uk (eigg.aiai.ed.ac.uk [129.215.41.7])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id GAA19892
for <pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Wed, 5 Aug 1998 06:09:47 +1000 (EST)
Received: from todday.aiai.ed.ac.uk (todday.aiai.ed.ac.uk [129.215.105.40])
by aiai.ed.ac.uk (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA08847
for <pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Tue, 4 Aug 1998 21:09:42 +0100 (BST)
Received: (tfb at localhost) by todday.aiai.ed.ac.uk (8.6.13/8.6.12) id VAA11887; Tue, 4 Aug 1998 21:09:41 +0100
Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1998 21:09:41 +0100
Message-Id: <199808042009.VAA11887 at todday.aiai.ed.ac.uk>
From: Tim Bradshaw <tfb@aiai.ed.ac.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: The Unix Society
In-Reply-To: <9808030314.AA18496 at blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu>
References: <9808030314.AA18496 at blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu>
X-Mailer: VM 6.32 under 19.14 XEmacs Lucid
Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
* Michael Sokolov wrote:
>> Keep it to systems which require a UNIX source license, then?
> Yes!
No no no! This is really bad. We should not try and sit down and say
who or what we exclude and who or what we include. There are hundreds
of Unix and Unix-related systems that ran or run on all sorts of
hardware: trying to define some arbitrary border is just bogus, and is
also pretty disturbing in various respects (`you over there, you're
running a 4.2BSD-derivative system with lots of non-bell/non-Berkeley
code in it on something that isn't even a vax, *you* can't talk to
*us* cos you're not pure enough, nah nah nah').
Let's just not stress about this stuff, and let anyone who is
interested in older Unixoid systems be involved. The only logical
dividing line is the 16-bit/32-bit one -- really the PDP11/bigger
system one -- and even that is furry (where does 32v live, or the
interdata port, or ?).
It's not like the list is suddenly going to get taken over by people
trying to talk about Linux or Solaris or something: those poeple have
their own lists and are quite happy there. If people ask
inappropriate questions they won't get answers (or will get polite
pointers to ask somewhere more apropriate).
As for name, I still like my own suggestion of `proper unix
preservation society', though I can see there may be copyright issues.
Most of all, can't we stop all this silly meta-discussion and actually
talk about real interesting stuff! Here's a question I'd actually
like to know the answer to: have there been ports of Unix or Unix-like
systems to machines with non-power-of-2 word sizes or other `strange'
(by modern standards) machines?
--tim (who's running a 4.2BSD-derivative system with lots of non-bell/non-Berkeley
code in it on something that isn't even a Vax.
And is also on holiday, so won't be reading this stuff for a while)
Received: (from major at localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA22129
for pups-liszt; Wed, 5 Aug 1998 09:11:20 +1000 (EST)
Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA22124
for <pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Wed, 5 Aug 1998 09:11:16 +1000 (EST)
Received: (from wkt at localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA18650 for pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Wed, 5 Aug 1998 09:11:53 +1000 (EST)
From: Warren Toomey <wkt@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199808042311.JAA18650 at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: A Decision :-)
To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation)
Date: Wed, 5 Aug 1998 09:11:53 +1000 (EST)
Reply-To: wkt at cs.adfa.oz.au
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
Ok, here's the decision (for now). The PUPS mailing list now has the working
name: The UNIX Heritage Society. The email address will stay the same for
now. The mailing list topics are controlled by its members, so feel free to
chat about PDP-11 UNIX, 32-bit UNIX, Unix derived systems, your cat (well,
maybe not). I'm happy for chat about systems which don't require UNIX source
licences, too.
Many people should set up web pages to cover their own particular interest.
Mine's at http://minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au/PUPS/
Someone (me?) will set up a web page describing the charter of The UNIX
Heritage Society, with pointers to everybody's web page.
If the mailing list becomes too diverse, then people are free to set up
other mailing lists with more restricted topics. Again, I'll add hyperlinks
on the The UNIX Heritage Society web page to the mailing lists.
Suggestions for a better name then `The UNIX Heritage Society' can be mailed
to me :-) Suggestions for the charter of `The UNIX Heritage Society', or
whatever you want to call it, can also be sent to me. I'll add hyperlinks
on the The UNIX Heritage Society web page for each suggestion.
I'd rather this thing be all-inclusive, rather then exclusive. At the same
time, I want people to feel free to set up web/mail resources with more
specific aims. For example, the PUPS web pages are going to stay unchanged.
Now, as Tim suggested, let's stop going round in circles and actually
get back to DOING things :-)
Cheers all,
Warren
Received: (from major at localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA22163
for pups-liszt; Wed, 5 Aug 1998 09:20:54 +1000 (EST)
Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA22158
for <pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Wed, 5 Aug 1998 09:20:51 +1000 (EST)
Received: (from wkt at localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA18748 for pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Wed, 5 Aug 1998 09:21:28 +1000 (EST)
From: Warren Toomey <wkt@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199808042321.JAA18748 at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Kirk's 4CD BSD set: status
To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation)
Date: Wed, 5 Aug 1998 09:21:28 +1000 (EST)
Reply-To: wkt at cs.adfa.oz.au
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
All,
Kirk McKusick has updated his web page about his 4CD set of BSD
releases at http://www.mckusick.com/csrg/
Status: production is delayed a further week. Unfortuntely, Kirk is
just about to go off overseas for three weeks, and won't be back
until the end of August. You may place your orders on his web page,
but things won't start to happen until the 1st of September.
Cheers all,
Warren
Received: (from major at localhost)
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA22319
for pups-liszt; Wed, 5 Aug 1998 09:55:31 +1000 (EST)
Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158])
by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA22311
for <pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Wed, 5 Aug 1998 09:55:27 +1000 (EST)
Received: (from wkt at localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA18931 for pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Wed, 5 Aug 1998 09:56:04 +1000 (EST)
From: Warren Toomey <wkt@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199808042356.JAA18931 at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: TUHS web page: version #0
To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation)
Date: Wed, 5 Aug 1998 09:56:04 +1000 (EST)
Reply-To: wkt at cs.adfa.oz.au
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Precedence: bulk
All,
The zeroth version of a web page for this all-encompassing group
thingy to cover all Unix preservation/development etc is now at:
http://minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au/TUHS/
Feel free (if not compelled) to mail me with suggestions, hyperlinks,
background artwork etc. Michael, would you be able to knock up a VAX UNIX
web page so I could add a hyperlink to it?
Thanks,
Warren
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] only message in thread
only message in thread, other threads:[~1998-05-05 19:34 UTC | newest]
Thread overview: (only message) (download: mbox.gz / follow: Atom feed)
-- links below jump to the message on this page --
1998-05-05 19:34 Installation of 2.11BSD Matthias Bruestle
This is a public inbox, see mirroring instructions
for how to clone and mirror all data and code used for this inbox;
as well as URLs for NNTP newsgroup(s).