From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 From: m@mbsks.franken.de (Matthias Bruestle) Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 21:34:17 +0200 (MET DST) Subject: Installation of 2.11BSD Message-ID: Mahlzeit My hardware: Mentec M70 with 512kB RAM (that must be enough) which can boot from DX DY DL DU DM DB MS MT and has 4 serial ports. MSCP/DU-Controller which can boot from DM, DP, DL, DR, MS, MT, MU, SY, DU. It is connected to a 1.2MB-5.25"-FDD and a MFM-HDD of unknown size wich I will get tomorrow. (I have now the dox for my controller.) Kernel: To use these 4 serial ports, do I have to set "NKL 4" or are these not KL11/DL11s? One of these is the normal console unter RT-11. Is "NBUF 32" OK for 512kB RAM? Should I set UCB_CLIST NO or YES? Installation: I think there are three possible ways of installing it: 1) Boot from a RT-11-Floppy and transfer the whole disk with rtkerm. The disk will be bigger than 32MB, so this does not work? 2) Boot from a RT-11-Floppy and transfer the root-fs and the swap-partition then boot BSD and transfer somehow the usr-data (kermit? write simple program?). This sould also install the disklabel. 3) Boot from a BSD-Floppy, disklabel, mkfs, transfer data (kermit? write simple program?). The kernel and diskimages will allways be made on an emulator. What do you think is the best/easiest way? Or have you a better idea? (Make a tape and use the TU58-emulator?) Thanks endergone Zwiebeltuete -- insanity inside Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA06631 for pups-liszt; Wed, 6 May 1998 15:59:52 +1000 (EST) Received: from chico.franken.de (dns.franken.de [193.175.24.33]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA06626 for ; Wed, 6 May 1998 15:59:38 +1000 (EST) Received: from mbsks.UUCP by chico.franken.de with UUCP (Smail3.2 #2) id m0yWxby-005CFVC; Wed, 6 May 1998 08:23:26 +0200 (MET DST) Received: by mbsks.franken.de (Linux Smail3.1.28.1 #14) id m0yWxdJ-000HprC; Wed, 6 May 98 08:24 MET DST Message-Id: From: m@mbsks.franken.de (Matthias Bruestle) Subject: Installation of 2.11BSD (II) To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (pubs) Date: Wed, 6 May 1998 08:24:49 +0200 (MET DST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL31 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk Mahlzeit I'm using 2.11_rp_unknown[1] an the newest version of the supnik emulator. When I'm compiling a kernel (with the newest 2.11BSD sources), I get at the end: ./checksys unix overlay 6 is empty and there are non-empty overlays following it. System will occupy 156960 bytes of memory (including buffers and clists). end {0052310} nbuf {0012014} buf {0033654} nproc {0012002} proc {0042454} ntext {0012004} text {0051350} nfile {0012010} file {0047370} ninode {0012006} inode {0012076} ncallout {0012012} callout {0024562} ucb_clist {0012020} nclist {0012016} ram_size {0000000} xitdesc {0012074} quotdesc {0000000} namecache {0025242} _iosize {0010030} **** SYSTEM IS NOT BOOTABLE. **** *** Exit 1 then I get very often Bus Errors: # ./config SONJA ./config: 1041 Bus error - core dumped Copying standard files to ../SONJA. ./config: 1051 Bus error - core dumped ./config: 1052 Bus error - core dumped ./config: ../SONJA/ioconf.c: cannot create ./config: ../SONJA/param.c: cannot create Setting configuration options for SONJA. c./config: ../SONJA/loop.h: cannot create ^C# ^C # mkdir Bus error - core dumped # mkdir X Bus error - core dumped # I configured the emulator with 1MB RAM. I compiled it with and without optimization. Is this a problem with the distribution, with the emulator or with the compiler (gcc 2.7.2.1)? Mahlzeit endergone Zwiebeltuete [1] The "distributed" 2.11BSD is not so stable. It is often killing the filesystem. -- insanity inside Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA06684 for pups-liszt; Wed, 6 May 1998 16:14:59 +1000 (EST) Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA06678 for ; Wed, 6 May 1998 16:14:55 +1000 (EST) Received: (from wkt at localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id QAA02895; Wed, 6 May 1998 16:38:21 +1000 (EST) From: Warren Toomey Message-Id: <199805060638.QAA02895 at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: Re: Installation of 2.11BSD (II) To: m at mbsks.franken.de (Matthias Bruestle) Date: Wed, 6 May 1998 16:38:21 +1000 (EST) Cc: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au In-Reply-To: from Matthias Bruestle at "May 6, 98 08:24:49 am" Reply-To: wkt at cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk In article by Matthias Bruestle: > I'm using 2.11_rp_unknown[1] an the newest version of the supnik emulator. [that's in the PUPS Archive, for those without a src license] > When I'm compiling a kernel (with the newest 2.11BSD sources), I get > [problems] > > I configured the emulator with 1MB RAM. I compiled it with and without > optimization. Is this a problem with the distribution, with the emulator > or with the compiler [used to build the emulator?] (gcc 2.7.2.1)? > > The "distributed" 2.11BSD is not so stable. It is often killing the > filesystem. Hmm, Steven Schultz did find yet another bug in Bob's emulator which fixed the crashing vi problem. As Steven knows heaps more about 2.11 than I, here are some general purpose suggestions from me. + Manually fsck on bootup. Does that help prevent fs corruption, or is the system killing the filesystem on a regular basis? + Can you build a GENERIC kernel? Does it boot? + The 2.11_rp_unknown disk image was built with the new P11 emulator from the Begemot crew. You might try compiling and installing this emulator, and see how 2.11BSD performs. Anyway, Steven might offer some better advice! Greg Lehey might be able to provide you with the P11 config files he uses. I've got the new P11 built at home, but I can't get the files on it from work. I'm off for a short break, but I'll be back Monday. Best of luck with it. Warren Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA06826 for pups-liszt; Wed, 6 May 1998 16:43:53 +1000 (EST) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [139.130.136.133]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA06818 for ; Wed, 6 May 1998 16:43:47 +1000 (EST) Received: (from grog at localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) id QAA00723; Wed, 6 May 1998 16:37:11 +0930 (CST) (envelope-from grog) Message-ID: <19980506163710.A329 at freebie.lemis.com> Date: Wed, 6 May 1998 16:37:10 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: wkt at cs.adfa.oz.au, Matthias Bruestle Cc: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: Installation of 2.11BSD (II) References: <199805060638.QAA02895 at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: <199805060638.QAA02895 at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>; from Warren Toomey on Wed, May 06, 1998 at 04:38:21PM +1000 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk On Wed, 6 May 1998 at 16:38:21 +1000, Warren Toomey wrote: > In article by Matthias Bruestle: >> I'm using 2.11_rp_unknown[1] an the newest version of the supnik emulator. > > [that's in the PUPS Archive, for those without a src license] > >> When I'm compiling a kernel (with the newest 2.11BSD sources), I get >> [problems] >> >> I configured the emulator with 1MB RAM. I compiled it with and without >> optimization. Is this a problem with the distribution, with the emulator >> or with the compiler [used to build the emulator?] (gcc 2.7.2.1)? >> >> The "distributed" 2.11BSD is not so stable. It is often killing the >> filesystem. > > Hmm, Steven Schultz did find yet another bug in Bob's emulator which fixed > the crashing vi problem. As Steven knows heaps more about 2.11 than I, here > are some general purpose suggestions from me. > >> Manually fsck on bootup. Does that help prevent fs corruption, > or is the system killing the filesystem on a regular basis? > >> Can you build a GENERIC kernel? Does it boot? > >> The 2.11_rp_unknown disk image was built with the new P11 > emulator from the Begemot crew. You might try compiling and > installing this emulator, and see how 2.11BSD performs. > > Anyway, Steven might offer some better advice! Greg Lehey might be able > to provide you with the P11 config files he uses. I've got the new P11 > built at home, but I can't get the files on it from work. Well, I started an answer, and decided that Steven would be able to answer better, but since you mention my name, OK, here I am. One point: > Is this a problem with the distribution, with the emulator or with > the compiler (gcc 2.7.2.1)? First, the compiler is certainly not gcc. That would never fit in the address space of a PDP-11. Secondly, I'd guess it's the emulator. I don't think many people have tried 2.11BSD on the Supnik emulator. I'm using the Begemot emulator (Emulators/P11-2.3 in the archive). I get: [5] root--> cd /usr/src/sys/GRANDPA/ [6] root--> ./checksys unix System will occupy 295600 bytes of memory (including buffers and clists). end {0122636} nbuf {0013562} buf {0053542} nproc {0013550} proc {0077060} ntext {0013552} text {0121416} nfile {0013556} file {0115726} ninode {0013554} inode {0013646} ncallout {0013560} callout {0044274} ucb_clist {0013566} nclist {0013564} ram_size {0000000} xitdesc {0013644} quotdesc {0000000} namecache {0053150} _iosize {0000000} [7] root--> I won't pretend that the documentation of the interpreter is ideal, nor that it's easy to set up. It took me quite a while. Take a look at the files in ftp://ftp.lemis.com/pub/pups. They are: -rw-r--r-- 1 root lemis 11477 May 6 16:18 README-emu -rw-r--r-- 1 root lemis 1746 May 6 16:18 p11conf -rwxr-xr-x 1 root lemis 315 May 6 16:19 run_211 README-emu is a brief (and hurried) description of what I did to get the emulator working, p11conf is my current configuration, and run_211 is the command file I run to actually start the emulator. Note that what you get when you run the emulator is just the diagnostic console; to actually use the machine, you need to telnet to ports 10000 to 10003. Anybody interested in so doing can telnet to pdp11.lemis.com and log in as guest, password "Today only". Don't break anything, please--I haven't checked security too much. Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers finger grog at lemis.com for PGP public key Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA08014 for pups-liszt; Thu, 7 May 1998 00:38:54 +1000 (EST) Received: from aiai.ed.ac.uk (eigg.aiai.ed.ac.uk [129.215.41.7]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA08009 for ; Thu, 7 May 1998 00:38:45 +1000 (EST) Received: from todday.aiai.ed.ac.uk (todday.aiai.ed.ac.uk [129.215.105.40]) by aiai.ed.ac.uk (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA04718 for ; Wed, 6 May 1998 16:01:21 +0100 (BST) Received: (tfb at localhost) by todday.aiai.ed.ac.uk (8.6.13/8.6.12) id QAA08913; Wed, 6 May 1998 16:01:21 +0100 Date: Wed, 6 May 1998 16:01:21 +0100 Message-Id: <199805061501.QAA08913 at todday.aiai.ed.ac.uk> From: Tim Bradshaw MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: First edition Unix manuals X-Mailer: VM 6.32 under 19.14 XEmacs Lucid Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk In case other people haven't seen this, Dennis Ritchie has (scanned) versions of these at: http://www.cs.bell-labs.com/~dmr --tim Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA08241 for pups-liszt; Thu, 7 May 1998 01:53:08 +1000 (EST) Received: from seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu (seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu [152.1.88.4]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA08236 for ; Thu, 7 May 1998 01:53:01 +1000 (EST) Received: (from rdkeys at localhost) by seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA00456; Wed, 6 May 1998 12:12:37 -0400 (EDT) From: "Robert D. Keys" Message-Id: <199805061612.MAA00456 at seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> Subject: Re: Early unix on simulators --- partial newbie success ---yeah! In-Reply-To: <199805061501.QAA08913 at todday.aiai.ed.ac.uk> from Tim Bradshaw at "May 6, 98 04:01:21 pm" To: tfb at aiai.ed.ac.uk (Tim Bradshaw) Date: Wed, 6 May 1998 12:12:37 -0400 (EDT) Cc: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk I managed to get the Sim23b pdp11 emulator running on the v5 unix. It is hard to believe a 25K kernel....(:+}}..... so much for code bloat over the years. My goal is to try to bring it up on a KSR35 hooked up to a headless pc (386 board in a closet box) on the dos emulator, or whatever would be the minimal required to get it going. Can anyone suggest ways to reach that goal? I am still having no luck with the Ersatz 2.0 emulator on dos, because I can't seem to get the incantations right. I get to the @ prompt, but after entering unix, it just sits for a bit, the HD spins, and after a few seconds it is back at the @ prompt. There is still some magick mystical juju required (albeit I am the dummy here....(:+\\.....) I could port a stripped Linux 0.98 kernel maybe, to get it up, and try that, but I was hoping the dos emulator would run with it. Any suggestions and pointers are appreciated. Thanks, and kudos to all the PUPS crew and Dennis Ritchie for resurrecting the old v5 image. This kindof makes computing fun, for a change..... Now, where did I stash that KSR35..... Bob Keys..... Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA08328 for pups-liszt; Thu, 7 May 1998 02:15:26 +1000 (EST) Received: from chico.franken.de (dns.franken.de [193.175.24.33]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id CAA08323 for ; Thu, 7 May 1998 02:15:20 +1000 (EST) Received: from mbsks.UUCP by chico.franken.de with UUCP (Smail3.2 #2) id m0yX7D7-005CHzC; Wed, 6 May 1998 18:38:25 +0200 (MET DST) Received: by mbsks.franken.de (Linux Smail3.1.28.1 #14) id m0yX7Dl-000HqdC; Wed, 6 May 98 18:39 MET DST Message-Id: From: m@mbsks.franken.de (Matthias Bruestle) Subject: Re: Installation of 2.11BSD (II) In-Reply-To: <19980506163710.A329 at freebie.lemis.com> from Greg Lehey at "May 6, 98 04:37:10 pm" To: grog at lemis.com (Greg Lehey) Date: Wed, 6 May 1998 18:39:05 +0200 (MET DST) Cc: wkt at cs.adfa.oz.au, pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL31 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk Mahlzeit According to Greg Lehey: > Well, I started an answer, and decided that Steven would be able to > answer better, but since you mention my name, OK, here I am. Thanks. :) > > Is this a problem with the distribution, with the emulator or with > > the compiler (gcc 2.7.2.1)? > First, the compiler is certainly not gcc. That would never fit in the The compiler which compiled the emulator is gcc. Log time ago I compiled someones emulator with gcc 2.5.8 and it did only work without any optimization. > nor that it's easy to set up. It took me quite a while. Take a look > at the files in ftp://ftp.lemis.com/pub/pups. They are: Fine, I will try it this night or tomorrow. Thanks endergone Zwiebeltuete -- insanity inside Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA09143 for pups-liszt; Thu, 7 May 1998 06:20:53 +1000 (EST) Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id GAA09138 for ; Thu, 7 May 1998 06:20:48 +1000 (EST) Received: (from wkt at localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id GAA03625; Thu, 7 May 1998 06:43:56 +1000 (EST) From: Warren Toomey Message-Id: <199805062043.GAA03625 at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: Using P11 emulator (was 2.11BSD installation problems) To: wkt at cs.adfa.oz.au Date: Thu, 7 May 1998 06:43:56 +1000 (EST) Cc: m at mbsks.franken.de, pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au In-Reply-To: <199805060638.QAA02895 at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> from Warren Toomey at "May 6, 98 04:38:21 pm" Reply-To: wkt at cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk Matthias, Here are some instructions on getting that RP disk image working with the Begemot P11 2.3 emulator. These should supplement Greg's email. Warren Running the 2.11BSD RP disk image on the P11 Emulator Ok, here's how I got P11-2.3 running. Firstly, I extracted the source code for P11 from the tarball, and built the emulator in the extracted emu directory. Note: you need lots of virtual memory to build instab.o. With p11 built, I went into ../run, and copied the following files here: total 16 -rw------- 1 root wheel 1562 Apr 22 19:56 mon.help -rw------- 1 root wheel 648 Apr 22 19:55 p11conf -rw------- 1 root wheel 4096 Dec 12 1994 qna.rom -rw------- 1 root wheel 512 Apr 22 19:41 rp.boot All except p11conf came from ../emu. I had a hard time getting the p11conf configuration file working, what with the cpp path etc. So I basically made a p11conf file which doesn't use any #defines. Here it is: libdir = . ctrl rl 017774400 0160 4 4000 end ctrl rp 017776700 0254 5 4000 0 /usr/local/src/RP_211bsd_root 12 end ctrl kl 017777560 060 064 4 ../emu/IOProgs/tty_net -7 -t 10002 017776500 0300 0304 4 ../emu/IOProgs/tty_net -7 -t 10003 end ctrl mr 017777520 ./rp.boot end ctrl lp 017777514 0200 4 end ctrl tm 017772520 0224 5 end Note that the emulated RP disk image is at /usr/local/src/RP_211bsd_root. The number 12 after this is arbitrary, I have no idea what it does. Now, to run the emulator using the p11conf above from the run directory, do ../emu/p11 -d &. You can run it in the background as it doesn't require any keyboard interaction. Then telnet localhost 10002, and hit Return a few times. You will see: % telnet localhost 10002 Trying 127.0.0.1... Connected to localhost. Escape character is '^]'. ----- <---- Hit Return once or twice here : xp(0,0,0)unix Boot: bootdev=05000 bootcsr=0176700 2.11 BSD UNIX #11: Tue Jan 6 16:57:02 MET 1998 root at pdp11.begemot.com:/usr/src/sys/HIPPON attaching lo0 phys mem = 2097152 avail mem = 1668352 user mem = 307200 January 8 08:25:02 init: configure system lp 0 csr 177514 vector 200 attached rl 0 csr 174400 vector 160 attached tm 0 csr 172520 vector 224 attached xp 0 csr 176700 vector 254 attached cn 1 csr 176500 vector 300 attached cn 2 csr 176510 vector 310 skipped: No CSR. cn 3 csr 176520 vector 320 skipped: No CSR. cn 4 csr 176530 vector 330 skipped: No CSR. erase, kill ^U, intr ^C # That's it!! Warren Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA09164 for pups-liszt; Thu, 7 May 1998 06:26:14 +1000 (EST) Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id GAA09159 for ; Thu, 7 May 1998 06:26:11 +1000 (EST) Received: (from wkt at localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id GAA03699; Thu, 7 May 1998 06:49:24 +1000 (EST) From: Warren Toomey Message-Id: <199805062049.GAA03699 at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: Re: First edition Unix manuals To: tfb at aiai.ed.ac.uk (Tim Bradshaw) Date: Thu, 7 May 1998 06:49:24 +1000 (EST) Cc: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation) In-Reply-To: <199805061501.QAA08913 at todday.aiai.ed.ac.uk> from Tim Bradshaw at "May 6, 98 04:01:21 pm" Reply-To: wkt at cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk In article by Tim Bradshaw: > In case other people haven't seen this, Dennis Ritchie has (scanned) > versions of these at: > > http://www.cs.bell-labs.com/~dmr > > --tim Thanks Tim! Warren Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA09393 for pups-liszt; Thu, 7 May 1998 07:24:42 +1000 (EST) Received: from chico.franken.de (dns.franken.de [193.175.24.33]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id HAA09388 for ; Thu, 7 May 1998 07:24:32 +1000 (EST) Received: from mbsks.UUCP by chico.franken.de with UUCP (Smail3.2 #2) id m0yXC2L-005CD5C; Wed, 6 May 1998 23:47:37 +0200 (MET DST) Received: by mbsks.franken.de (Linux Smail3.1.28.1 #14) id m0yXC0k-000HqiC; Wed, 6 May 98 23:45 MET DST Message-Id: From: m@mbsks.franken.de (Matthias Bruestle) Subject: Re: Using P11 emulator (was 2.11BSD installation problems) In-Reply-To: <199805062043.GAA03625 at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> from Warren Toomey at "May 7, 98 06:43:56 am" To: wkt at cs.adfa.oz.au Date: Wed, 6 May 1998 23:45:58 +0200 (MET DST) Cc: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL31 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk Mahlzeit The setup looks more complicated than the supnik emulator. So, I'll look tomorrow. What I have noticed is, that there is bsdi and freeBSD mentioned in p11conf but not linux. Does it require a BSD? Mahlzeit endergone Zwiebeltuete -- insanity inside Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA09524 for pups-liszt; Thu, 7 May 1998 08:41:02 +1000 (EST) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [139.130.136.133] (may be forged)) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA09519 for ; Thu, 7 May 1998 08:40:56 +1000 (EST) Received: (from grog at localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) id IAA02711; Thu, 7 May 1998 08:34:16 +0930 (CST) (envelope-from grog) Message-ID: <19980507083416.B396 at freebie.lemis.com> Date: Thu, 7 May 1998 08:34:16 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: Tim Bradshaw , pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: First edition Unix manuals References: <199805061501.QAA08913 at todday.aiai.ed.ac.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: <199805061501.QAA08913 at todday.aiai.ed.ac.uk>; from Tim Bradshaw on Wed, May 06, 1998 at 04:01:21PM +0100 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk On Wed, 6 May 1998 at 16:01:21 +0100, Tim Bradshaw wrote: > In case other people haven't seen this, Dennis Ritchie has (scanned) > versions of these at: > > http://www.cs.bell-labs.com/~dmr Somebody else posted this a few days ago. Does anybody know how to view them? They're in .gif format, and xv only shows me the first page. Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers finger grog at lemis.com for PGP public key Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA09691 for pups-liszt; Thu, 7 May 1998 09:45:46 +1000 (EST) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [139.130.136.133]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA09686 for ; Thu, 7 May 1998 09:45:40 +1000 (EST) Received: (from grog at localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) id JAA02921; Thu, 7 May 1998 09:38:50 +0930 (CST) (envelope-from grog) Message-ID: <19980507093849.H396 at freebie.lemis.com> Date: Thu, 7 May 1998 09:38:49 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: wkt at cs.adfa.oz.au Cc: m at mbsks.franken.de, pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: Using P11 emulator (was 2.11BSD installation problems) References: <199805060638.QAA02895 at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> <199805062043.GAA03625 at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: <199805062043.GAA03625 at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>; from Warren Toomey on Thu, May 07, 1998 at 06:43:56AM +1000 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk On Thu, 7 May 1998 at 6:43:56 +1000, Warren Toomey wrote: > Matthias, > Here are some instructions on getting that RP disk image working > with the Begemot P11 2.3 emulator. These should supplement Greg's email. Hey, I thought you were in freezing Tasmania :-) > Running the 2.11BSD RP disk image on the P11 Emulator > > Ok, here's how I got P11-2.3 running. Firstly, I extracted the source code > for P11 from the tarball, and built the emulator in the extracted emu > directory. Note: you need lots of virtual memory to build instab.o. > > With p11 built, I went into ../run, and copied the following files here: > > total 16 > -rw------- 1 root wheel 1562 Apr 22 19:56 mon.help > -rw------- 1 root wheel 648 Apr 22 19:55 p11conf > -rw------- 1 root wheel 4096 Dec 12 1994 qna.rom > -rw------- 1 root wheel 512 Apr 22 19:41 rp.boot > > All except p11conf came from ../emu. I had a hard time getting the p11conf > configuration file working, what with the cpp path etc. So I basically made > a p11conf file which doesn't use any #defines. Here it is: > > > libdir = . > ctrl rl 017774400 0160 4 4000 > end > ctrl rp 017776700 0254 5 4000 > 0 /usr/local/src/RP_211bsd_root 12 > end > ctrl kl > 017777560 060 064 4 ../emu/IOProgs/tty_net -7 -t 10002 > 017776500 0300 0304 4 ../emu/IOProgs/tty_net -7 -t 10003 > end > ctrl mr 017777520 ./rp.boot > end > ctrl lp 017777514 0200 4 > end > ctrl tm 017772520 0224 5 > end > > Note that the emulated RP disk image is at /usr/local/src/RP_211bsd_root. > The number 12 after this is arbitrary, I have no idea what it does. > > Now, to run the emulator using the p11conf above from the run directory, > do ../emu/p11 -d &. You can run it in the background as it doesn't require > any keyboard interaction. Then telnet localhost 10002, and hit Return a few > times. You will see: In fact, you can use any port from 10000 to 10003. They map to /dev/console and /dev/ttyl1 through /dev/ttyl3 (though for some reason /etc/ttys doesn't contain entries for the latter two). >> telnet localhost 10002 > Trying 127.0.0.1... > Connected to localhost. > Escape character is '^]'. > ----- > <---- Hit Return once or twice here > : xp(0,0,0)unix > Boot: bootdev=05000 bootcsr=0176700 > > 2.11 BSD UNIX #11: Tue Jan 6 16:57:02 MET 1998 > root at pdp11.begemot.com:/usr/src/sys/HIPPON > > attaching lo0 > > phys mem = 2097152 > avail mem = 1668352 > user mem = 307200 > > January 8 08:25:02 init: configure system > > lp 0 csr 177514 vector 200 attached > rl 0 csr 174400 vector 160 attached > tm 0 csr 172520 vector 224 attached > xp 0 csr 176700 vector 254 attached > cn 1 csr 176500 vector 300 attached > cn 2 csr 176510 vector 310 skipped: No CSR. > cn 3 csr 176520 vector 320 skipped: No CSR. > cn 4 csr 176530 vector 330 skipped: No CSR. > erase, kill ^U, intr ^C > # > > That's it!! Well, no, at this point you're in single-user mode. To continue, enter ^D: # Fast boot ... skipping disk checks checking quotas: done. Assuming NETWORKING system ... add host 192.109.197.211: gateway 127.1 add net default: gateway freebie.lemis.com starting system logger preserving editor files clearing /tmp standard daemons: update cron accounting. starting network daemons: inetd rwhod printer. starting local daemons:. Wed May 6 10:45:41 CST 1998 May 6 10:45:42 pdp11 init: kernel security level changed from 0 to 1 2.11 BSD UNIX (pdp11.lemis.com) (console) login: I've forgotten what the standard password on root is; I fear it has *not* been removed. It could be 'begemot' or 'begemot1'. To change it, you will need to rebuild passwd, which will not work otherwise. Do that in /usr/src/bin/passwd. If you have trouble, I can send you a passwd binary. Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers finger grog at lemis.com for PGP public key Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA09714 for pups-liszt; Thu, 7 May 1998 09:53:29 +1000 (EST) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [139.130.136.133]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA09709 for ; Thu, 7 May 1998 09:53:24 +1000 (EST) Received: (from grog at localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) id JAA02935; Thu, 7 May 1998 09:46:41 +0930 (CST) (envelope-from grog) Message-ID: <19980507094640.I396 at freebie.lemis.com> Date: Thu, 7 May 1998 09:46:40 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: Matthias Bruestle , wkt at cs.adfa.oz.au Cc: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: Using P11 emulator (was 2.11BSD installation problems) References: <199805062043.GAA03625 at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: ; from Matthias Bruestle on Wed, May 06, 1998 at 11:45:58PM +0200 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk On Wed, 6 May 1998 at 23:45:58 +0200, Matthias Bruestle wrote: > Mahlzeit Mahlzeit (*r�lps*) > The setup looks more complicated than the supnik emulator. So, I'll > look tomorrow. What I have noticed is, that there is bsdi and freeBSD > mentioned in p11conf but not linux. Does it require a BSD? Yes, I think so. The access to the machine goes via the tunnel driver, and that would need to be completed for Linux. The authors don't use Linux, so they haven't done the work. They don't use BSD/OS much any more, so if you are going to install one, FreeBSD is the obvious choice, especially considering the price differential. Of course, any old UNIX user should be using BSD anyway, especially if you want to emulate older BSDs :-) Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers finger grog at lemis.com for PGP public key Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA09778 for pups-liszt; Thu, 7 May 1998 10:22:35 +1000 (EST) Received: from renoir.op.net (root at renoir.op.net [209.152.193.4]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA09773 for ; Thu, 7 May 1998 10:22:28 +1000 (EST) Received: from goppelt.op.net (d-phlarc1-02.ppp.op.net [209.152.199.66]) by renoir.op.net (o1/$Revision: 1.16 $) with SMTP id UAA04653 for ; Wed, 6 May 1998 20:45:44 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199805070045.UAA04653 at renoir.op.net> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Ed G." To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Date: Wed, 6 May 1998 20:45:41 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Floating Point-The Results Are In! Reply-to: edgee at cyberpass.net X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.54) Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk Using a new approach, I have re-counted the number of floating point operations for the utilities contained in Unix's bin directory. According to my results, many important 7th Edition programs such as adb, awk and tar make heavy use of floating point on the PDP-11. As you know, my first approach was to simple-mindedly examine every word of a given program's disk image to come up with an estimate of the number of floating point operations used by the program. I would like to thank those who pointed out the shortcoming of this approach and offered valuable advice on how to achieve my aim of accurate counts. Based on these comments, I decided to create a full fledged disassembler for the PDP-11. I have tested my program and believe it produces an exact count of all floating point operations. In case you're interested in how my initial estimates compare with the new, precise counts, I list those data below as well. New Approach. uv7 bin directory Programs using 10 or more floating point ops. graph 674 awk 657 spline 389 sa 300 prof 260 iostat 243 t450 222 t300 222 t300s 212 vplot 187 tek 185 adb 128 units 118 random 116 xsend 106 xget 106 tsort 106 tar 106 refer 106 quot 106 nroff 88 factor 88 ac 88 primes 78 poke6 62 lex 51 roff 32 as 18 Old Approach. uv7 bin directory Programs using 100 or more floating point ops. awk 2540 refer 1644 xsend 1326 tbl 1315 graph 1300 xget 1288 adb 1152 eqn 918 enroll 915 neqn 874 nroff 841 make 822 spline 812 yacc 789 sa 714 tar 706 lex 628 tek 618 prof 608 t300s 604 dc 601 vplot 582 iostat 579 t300 576 t450 574 em 530 bc 509 ratfor 474 quot 452 tsort 407 sh 381 expr 380 units 379 ac 365 sort 358 ps 327 restor 323 rmail 321 ed 321 mail 321 ptx 320 egrep 313 ls 310 ps.old 306 m4 304 random 298 su 296 tp 285 ops 282 cu 282 diff 277 pr 275 poke6 275 sed 267 find 267 dump 261 deroff 255 icheck 251 ls.11 249 ld 246 login 240 cptree 230 passwd 227 login.old 218 cc 210 prep 205 at 203 dumpdir 197 join 196 wc 193 tc 192 nm 191 pstat 190 file 187 pr.old 186 crypt 182 date 181 grep 180 ranlib 174 fgrep 172 ncheck 159 checkeq 157 du 155 who 152 as 152 od 151 look 149 roff 149 ar 146 vpr 144 dd 141 tk 141 time 139 rm 138 cb 134 mv 134 comm 133 newgrp 133 dcheck 132 factor 132 rmdir 125 write 125 primes 124 cmp 121 dfOLD 120 df 120 size 117 v6sh 116 vcopy 113 nice 113 col 110 ln 106 sum 105 clri 104 cat 103 tail 103 sleep 101 Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA09917 for pups-liszt; Thu, 7 May 1998 11:14:32 +1000 (EST) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [139.130.136.133]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA09912 for ; Thu, 7 May 1998 11:14:26 +1000 (EST) Received: (from grog at localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) id LAA21487; Thu, 7 May 1998 11:07:24 +0930 (CST) (envelope-from grog) Message-ID: <19980507110724.M396 at freebie.lemis.com> Date: Thu, 7 May 1998 11:07:24 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: edgee at cyberpass.net, pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: Floating Point-The Results Are In! References: <199805070045.UAA04653 at renoir.op.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: <199805070045.UAA04653 at renoir.op.net>; from Ed G. on Wed, May 06, 1998 at 08:45:41PM -0400 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk On Wed, 6 May 1998 at 20:45:41 -0400, Ed G. wrote: > Using a new approach, I have re-counted the number of floating point > operations for the utilities contained in Unix's bin directory. > According to my results, many important 7th Edition programs such as > adb, awk and tar make heavy use of floating point on the PDP-11. I'll believe this when you pinpoint the instructions. Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers finger grog at lemis.com for PGP public key Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA10926 for pups-liszt; Thu, 7 May 1998 18:33:08 +1000 (EST) Received: from red.csi.cam.ac.uk (exim at red.csi.cam.ac.uk [131.111.8.70]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA10921 for ; Thu, 7 May 1998 18:32:59 +1000 (EST) Received: from afrb2 (helo=localhost) by red.csi.cam.ac.uk with local-smtp (Exim 1.92 #1) for pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au id 0yXMSf-0002FS-00; Thu, 7 May 1998 09:55:29 +0100 Date: Thu, 7 May 1998 09:55:29 +0100 (BST) From: Alan Bain X-Sender: afrb2 at red.csi.cam.ac.uk To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: Floating Point-The Results Are In! In-Reply-To: <19980507110724.M396 at freebie.lemis.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk On Thu, 7 May 1998, Greg Lehey wrote: > On Wed, 6 May 1998 at 20:45:41 -0400, Ed G. wrote: > > Using a new approach, I have re-counted the number of floating point > > operations for the utilities contained in Unix's bin directory. > > According to my results, many important 7th Edition programs such as > > adb, awk and tar make heavy use of floating point on the PDP-11. > > I'll believe this when you pinpoint the instructions. > According to my paper copy of the UV7 manual, it is possible to run V7 on a machine with no floating point, and the main problem is when compiling say numeric code. There's a short section on how to do a build if you don't have fp (like me on my 11/34). I think the V7 manual may well be on line; but if not I can do a Xerox of this if it would be useful, Alan Bain Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA10996 for pups-liszt; Thu, 7 May 1998 19:00:04 +1000 (EST) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [139.130.136.133]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA10988 for ; Thu, 7 May 1998 18:59:58 +1000 (EST) Received: (from grog at localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) id SAA14397; Thu, 7 May 1998 18:53:07 +0930 (CST) (envelope-from grog) Message-ID: <19980507185306.I12200 at freebie.lemis.com> Date: Thu, 7 May 1998 18:53:06 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: Alan Bain , pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: Floating Point-The Results Are In! References: <19980507110724.M396 at freebie.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: ; from Alan Bain on Thu, May 07, 1998 at 09:55:29AM +0100 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk On Thu, 7 May 1998 at 9:55:29 +0100, Alan Bain wrote: > On Thu, 7 May 1998, Greg Lehey wrote: > >> On Wed, 6 May 1998 at 20:45:41 -0400, Ed G. wrote: >>> Using a new approach, I have re-counted the number of floating point >>> operations for the utilities contained in Unix's bin directory. >>> According to my results, many important 7th Edition programs such as >>> adb, awk and tar make heavy use of floating point on the PDP-11. >> >> I'll believe this when you pinpoint the instructions. >> > According to my paper copy of the UV7 manual, it is possible to run V7 on > a machine with no floating point, and the main problem is when compiling > say numeric code. There's a short section on how to do a build if you > don't have fp (like me on my 11/34). I think the V7 manual may well be > on line; but if not I can do a Xerox of this if it would be useful, The Seventh Edition manuals are available in a number of places, including of course the PUPS archive, but dmr has also put them on the web at http://plan9.bell-labs.com/7thEdMan/index.html. Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers finger grog at lemis.com for PGP public key Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA11609 for pups-liszt; Thu, 7 May 1998 22:45:50 +1000 (EST) Received: from seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu (seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu [152.1.88.4]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA11603 for ; Thu, 7 May 1998 22:45:44 +1000 (EST) Received: (from rdkeys at localhost) by seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA02117; Thu, 7 May 1998 09:05:02 -0400 (EDT) From: "Robert D. Keys" Message-Id: <199805071305.JAA02117 at seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> Subject: Re: First edition Unix manuals In-Reply-To: <19980507083416.B396 at freebie.lemis.com> from Greg Lehey at "May 7, 98 08:34:16 am" To: grog at lemis.com (Greg Lehey) Date: Thu, 7 May 1998 09:05:02 -0400 (EDT) Cc: tfb at aiai.ed.ac.uk, pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk > On Wed, 6 May 1998 at 16:01:21 +0100, Tim Bradshaw wrote: > > In case other people haven't seen this, Dennis Ritchie has (scanned) > > versions of these at: > > > > http://www.cs.bell-labs.com/~dmr > > Somebody else posted this a few days ago. Does anybody know how to > view them? They're in .gif format, and xv only shows me the first > page. > > Greg He put up postscript versions, too. I emailed him about the possibility of recreating the roff sources, an I will probably wind up doing that. Then we will have a working set of sources for clean copy. Bob Keys Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA13158 for pups-liszt; Fri, 8 May 1998 08:42:43 +1000 (EST) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [139.130.136.133]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA13153 for ; Fri, 8 May 1998 08:42:37 +1000 (EST) Received: (from grog at localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) id IAA16737; Fri, 8 May 1998 08:32:36 +0930 (CST) (envelope-from grog) Message-ID: <19980508083236.N12200 at freebie.lemis.com> Date: Fri, 8 May 1998 08:32:36 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: "Robert D. Keys" Cc: tfb at aiai.ed.ac.uk, pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: First edition Unix manuals References: <19980507083416.B396 at freebie.lemis.com> <199805071305.JAA02117 at seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: <199805071305.JAA02117 at seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu>; from Robert D. Keys on Thu, May 07, 1998 at 09:05:02AM -0400 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk On Thu, 7 May 1998 at 9:05:02 -0400, Robert D. Keys wrote: >> On Wed, 6 May 1998 at 16:01:21 +0100, Tim Bradshaw wrote: >>> In case other people haven't seen this, Dennis Ritchie has (scanned) >>> versions of these at: >>> >>> http://www.cs.bell-labs.com/~dmr >> >> Somebody else posted this a few days ago. Does anybody know how to >> view them? They're in .gif format, and xv only shows me the first >> page. >> >> Greg > > He put up postscript versions, too. I don't see them at http://cm.bell-labs.com/cm/cs/who/dmr/1stEdman.html. Where are they? > I emailed him about the possibility of recreating the roff sources, > an I will probably wind up doing that. Then we will have a working > set of sources for clean copy. Great idea. Keep us posted. Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers finger grog at lemis.com for PGP public key Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA14100 for pups-liszt; Fri, 8 May 1998 13:52:44 +1000 (EST) Received: from renoir.op.net (root at renoir.op.net [209.152.193.4]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA14094 for ; Fri, 8 May 1998 13:52:36 +1000 (EST) Received: from goppelt.op.net (d-phlarc1-01.ppp.op.net [209.152.199.65]) by renoir.op.net (o1/$Revision: 1.17 $) with SMTP id AAA28438; Fri, 8 May 1998 00:14:04 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199805080414.AAA28438 at renoir.op.net> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Ed G." To: Greg Lehey Date: Fri, 8 May 1998 00:14:03 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: Multipart/Mixed; boundary=Message-Boundary-293 Subject: Re: Floating Point-The Results Are In! Reply-to: edgee at cyberpass.net CC: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au In-reply-to: <19980507110724.M396 at freebie.lemis.com> References: <199805070045.UAA04653 at renoir.op.net>; from Ed G. on Wed, May 06, 1998 at 08:45:41PM -0400 X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.54) Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk --Message-Boundary-293 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-description: Mail message body > I'll believe this when you pinpoint the instructions. Your skepticism spurred me to examine a Unix utility in depth to see whether my results hold up. They do. According to my count, tar uses 106 floating point operations. Here are the first few. The complete list, tar3.txt, is attached as well for your perusal. If you'd like to look at the complete disassembled code for tar, let me know. [root at oskar uv7]# ../dis/disuv7.pl < tar | grep ';17' file header: 410 37400 4254 27422 20270 0 0 1 read 16128 bytes prog string is 16128 bytes 0: SETD ;170011 20532: STCFD F0,(R1) ;176011 20562: STF F0,(R1) ;174011 22406: LDF F0,(R4)+ ;172424 22410: STF F0,-(SP) ;174046 22460: LDF F0,(R4)+ ;172424 22462: STF F0,-(SP) ;174046 22620: LDF F0,(R4)+ ;172424 22622: STF F0,-(SP) ;174046 24124: LDF F0,4(R5) ;172465 000004 24130: STF F0,-(SP) ;174046 26616: LDF F0,#56200 ;172427 056200 I chose tar as an example because it is an important utility and because it is a relatively heavy user of floating point (as guaged by the number of floating point ops contained in tar). The following routines in 7th Edition tar appear to use floating point: ~_filbuf ~_innum ~atof ~cvt ~ecvt ~fcvt ~gcvt ~isatty ~main ~mktemp The addresses of these routines, as listed in tar's symbol table--see attached file symlisttar.txt--correspond to those of the disassembled floating point ops in tar. I've learned a lot while responding to the criticisms offered by you and others on this list. Thank you. Ed --Message-Boundary-293 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-description: Text from file 'TAR3.TXT' [root at oskar uv7]# ../dis/disuv7.pl < tar | grep ';17' file header: 410 37400 4254 27422 20270 0 0 1 read 16128 bytes prog string is 16128 bytes 0: SETD ;170011 20532: STCFD F0,(R1) ;176011 20562: STF F0,(R1) ;174011 22406: LDF F0,(R4)+ ;172424 22410: STF F0,-(SP) ;174046 22460: LDF F0,(R4)+ ;172424 22462: STF F0,-(SP) ;174046 22620: LDF F0,(R4)+ ;172424 22622: STF F0,-(SP) ;174046 24124: LDF F0,4(R5) ;172465 000004 24130: STF F0,-(SP) ;174046 26616: LDF F0,#56200 ;172427 056200 26622: STF F0,177732(R5) ;174065 177732 26676: CLRF 177762(R5) ;170465 177762 26710: LDF F0,177762(R5) ;172465 177762 26714: CMPF F0,177732(R5) ;173465 177732 26720: CFCC ;170000 26724: LDF F0,#41040 ;172427 041040 26730: MULF F0,177762(R5) ;171065 177762 26742: LDCIF F1,R1 ;177101 26744: ADDF F0,F1 ;172001 26746: STF F0,177762(R5) ;174065 177762 27006: LDF F0,177762(R5) ;172465 177762 27012: CMPF F0,177732(R5) ;173465 177732 27016: CFCC ;170000 27022: LDF F0,#41040 ;172427 041040 27026: MULF F0,177762(R5) ;171065 177762 27040: LDCIF F1,R1 ;177101 27042: ADDF F0,F1 ;172001 27044: STF F0,177762(R5) ;174065 177762 27304: CLRF 177762(R5) ;170465 177762 27314: LDF F0,#40200 ;172427 040200 27320: STF F0,177752(R5) ;174065 177752 27324: LDF F0,#40640 ;172427 040640 27330: STF F0,177742(R5) ;174065 177742 27344: LDF F0,177742(R5) ;172465 177742 27350: MULF F0,F0 ;171000 27352: STF F0,177742(R5) ;174065 177742 27366: LDF F0,177752(R5) ;172465 177752 27372: MULF F0,177742(R5) ;171065 177742 27376: STF F0,177752(R5) ;174065 177752 27422: LDF F0,177762(R5) ;172465 177762 27426: DIVF F0,177752(R5) ;174465 177752 27434: LDF F0,177762(R5) ;172465 177762 27440: MULF F0,177752(R5) ;171065 177752 27444: STF F0,177762(R5) ;174065 177762 27462: LDF F0,177762(R5) ;172465 177762 27466: STF F0,-(SP) ;174046 27500: STF F0,177762(R5) ;174065 177762 27512: NEGF F0 ;170700 27514: STF F0,177762(R5) ;174065 177762 27520: LDF F0,177762(R5) ;172465 177762 32720: LDF F0,4(R5) ;172465 000004 32724: STF F0,-(SP) ;174046 32764: LDF F0,4(R5) ;172465 000004 32770: STF F0,-(SP) ;174046 33060: CLRF F0 ;170400 33062: CMPF F0,4(R5) ;173465 000004 33066: CFCC ;170000 33100: LDF F0,4(R5) ;172465 000004 33104: NEGF F0 ;170700 33106: STF F0,4(R5) ;174065 000004 33120: LDF F0,4(R5) ;172465 000004 33124: STF F0,-(SP) ;174046 33136: STF F0,4(R5) ;174065 000004 33146: CLRF F0 ;170400 33150: CMPF F0,177762(R5) ;173465 177762 33154: CFCC ;170000 33160: CLRF F0 ;170400 33162: CMPF F0,4(R5) ;173465 000004 33166: CFCC ;170000 33202: LDF F0,177762(R5) ;172465 177762 33206: DIVF F0,#41040 ;174427 041040 33212: STF F0,-(SP) ;174046 33224: STF F0,177752(R5) ;174065 177752 33230: ADDF F0,43662 ;172067 010426 33234: MULF F0,#41040 ;171027 041040 33240: STCFI F0,R0 ;175400 33252: CLRF F0 ;170400 33254: CMPF F0,177762(R5) ;173465 177762 33260: CFCC ;170000 33276: LDF F0,177752(R5) ;172465 177752 33302: STF F0,4(R5) ;174065 000004 33310: LDF F0,4(R5) ;172465 000004 33314: MULF F0,#41040 ;171027 041040 33320: STF F0,177752(R5) ;174065 177752 33324: CMPF F0,#40200 ;173427 040200 33330: CFCC ;170000 33414: LDF F0,4(R5) ;172465 000004 33420: MULF F0,#41040 ;171027 041040 33424: STF F0,4(R5) ;174065 000004 33436: LDF F0,4(R5) ;172465 000004 33442: STF F0,-(SP) ;174046 33454: STF F0,4(R5) ;174065 000004 33460: LDF F0,177752(R5) ;172465 177752 33464: STCFI F0,R0 ;175400 33666: LDF F0,4(R5) ;172465 000004 33672: STEXP F0,R0 ;175000 33700: LDEXP F0,R0 ;176400 33702: CFCC ;170000 33710: LDF F0,43672 ;172467 007756 33716: LDF F0,43672 ;172467 007750 33722: NEGF F0 ;170700 34112: LDF F0,4(R5) ;172465 000004 34116: MODF F0,#40200 ;171427 040200 34122: STF F1, at 14(R5) ;174175 000014 [root at oskar uv7]# --Message-Boundary-293 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-description: Text from file 'symlisttar.txt' ~main~usage~dorep~endtape=003004 ~getdir~passtap=003414 ~putfile=003566 ~doxtrac=005656 ~dotable=006776 ~putempt=007126 ~longt~pmode~select~checkdi=007506 ~onintr~onquit~onhup~onterm~tomodes=010132 ~checksu=010344 ~checkw~respons=010560 ~checkup=010750 ~done~prefix~getwdir=011302 ~lookup~bsrch~cmp~readtap=012704 ~writeta=013350 ~backtap=013644 ~flushta=014044 ~copy~freopen=014146 ~fseek~rewind~fread~fwrite~system~fopen~scanf~fscanf~sscanf~_doscan=016056 ~_innum~_instr~_getccl=021242 ~fprintf=021376 ~printf~sprintf=021532 ~ungetc~_filbuf=022002 ~gcvt~_strout=024570 ~_flsbuf=025130 ~fflush~_cleanu=025702 ~fclose~_endope=026072 ~create~_findio=026516 ~atof~atoi~ctime~localti=027716 ~sunday~gmtime~asctime=031220 ~dysize~ct_numb=031560 ~malloc~free~realloc=032422 ~ecvt~fcvt~cvt~isatty~mktemp~stty~gtty~strcat~strcmp~strcpy --Message-Boundary-293-- Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA14844 for pups-liszt; Fri, 8 May 1998 19:54:45 +1000 (EST) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [139.130.136.133]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA14839 for ; Fri, 8 May 1998 19:54:38 +1000 (EST) Received: (from grog at localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) id TAA18750; Fri, 8 May 1998 19:46:16 +0930 (CST) (envelope-from grog) Message-ID: <19980508194615.O12200 at freebie.lemis.com> Date: Fri, 8 May 1998 19:46:15 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: edgee at cyberpass.net Cc: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: Floating Point-The Results Are In! References: <199805070045.UAA04653 at renoir.op.net>; <19980507110724.M396 at freebie.lemis.com> <199805080414.AAA28438 at renoir.op.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: <199805080414.AAA28438 at renoir.op.net>; from Ed G. on Fri, May 08, 1998 at 12:14:03AM -0400 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk On Fri, 8 May 1998 at 0:14:03 -0400, Ed G. wrote: Content-Description: Mail message body >> I'll believe this when you pinpoint the instructions. > > Your skepticism spurred me to examine a Unix utility in depth to see > whether my results hold up. They do. > > According to my count, tar uses 106 floating point operations. Here > are the first few. The complete list, tar3.txt, is attached as > well for your perusal. If you'd like to look at the complete > disassembled code for tar, let me know. > > [root at oskar uv7]# ../dis/disuv7.pl < tar | grep ';17' > file header: 410 37400 4254 27422 20270 0 0 1 > read 16128 bytes > prog string is 16128 bytes > 0: SETD ;170011 > 20532: STCFD F0,(R1) ;176011 > 20562: STF F0,(R1) ;174011 > 22406: LDF F0,(R4)+ ;172424 > 22410: STF F0,-(SP) ;174046 > 22460: LDF F0,(R4)+ ;172424 > 22462: STF F0,-(SP) ;174046 > 22620: LDF F0,(R4)+ ;172424 > 22622: STF F0,-(SP) ;174046 > 24124: LDF F0,4(R5) ;172465 000004 > 24130: STF F0,-(SP) ;174046 > 26616: LDF F0,#56200 ;172427 056200 > > I chose tar as an example because it is an important utility and > because it is a relatively heavy user of floating point (as guaged > by the number of floating point ops contained in tar). I don't know what the code above is intended to do, but it's not floating point. At the very best, it would indicate the use of the floating point registers for straightforward data moves. I stand by my assertion that tar doesn't use floating point, neither in the Seventh Edition nor elsewhere. For the fun of it, I took the source of tar from the Seventh Edition (/usr/src/cmd/tar/tar.c) and compiled it on 2.11BSD. I had some minor compilation problems due to different directory structures, which I solved by #ifdefing out the following code: #if 0 for (j=0; j < DIRSIZ; j++) *cp2++ = dbuf.d_name[j]; *cp2 = '\0'; close(infile); putfile(buf, cp); infile = open(".", 0); i++; lseek(infile, (long) (sizeof(dbuf) * i), 0); #endif I think we can agree that they don't contain FP code. Here are some results: [23] root--> cc -n -s -O tar.c -S [24] root--> grep -i ldf tar.s [25] root--> grep -i mul tar.s > The following routines in 7th Edition tar appear to use floating > point: > >> _filbuf >> _innum >> atof >> cvt >> ecvt >> fcvt >> gcvt >> isatty >> main >> mktemp atof, cvt, ecvt, fcvt and gcvt are conversion routines which use floating point, so I can agree that they would contain FP code which, however, would not be used. isatty is a library routine which is simple enough to quote: /* * Returns 1 iff file is a tty */ #include isatty(f) { struct sgttyb ttyb; if (gtty(f, &ttyb) < 0) return(0); return(1); } Evidently there's no FP code there. It's fun to go looking for things like this. But never trust anything, especially not your own judgement, until you have a couple of different ways to prove it. You have the sources there; go ahead and check them out. Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers finger grog at lemis.com for PGP public key Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA15293 for pups-liszt; Fri, 8 May 1998 23:10:26 +1000 (EST) Received: from seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu (seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu [152.1.88.4]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA15288 for ; Fri, 8 May 1998 23:10:19 +1000 (EST) Received: (from rdkeys at localhost) by seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA03767; Fri, 8 May 1998 09:28:40 -0400 (EDT) From: "Robert D. Keys" Message-Id: <199805081328.JAA03767 at seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> Subject: Re: First edition Unix manuals In-Reply-To: <19980508083236.N12200 at freebie.lemis.com> from Greg Lehey at "May 8, 98 08:32:36 am" To: grog at lemis.com (Greg Lehey) Date: Fri, 8 May 1998 09:28:40 -0400 (EDT) Cc: tfb at aiai.ed.ac.uk, pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk > On Thu, 7 May 1998 at 9:05:02 -0400, Robert D. Keys wrote: > > I emailed him about the possibility of recreating the roff sources, > > an I will probably wind up doing that. Then we will have a working > > set of sources for clean copy. > > Great idea. Keep us posted. > > Greg I have the intro and first few manpages of section 1 done so far. Maybe a week or so and then if someone will proof them. I will port them in original roff source, and then make a troff set. Dennis was wanting someone to tackle an html version. Alas, my html is not so good. Bob Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA15447 for pups-liszt; Fri, 8 May 1998 23:48:43 +1000 (EST) Received: from red.csi.cam.ac.uk (red.csi.cam.ac.uk [131.111.8.70]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA15435 for ; Fri, 8 May 1998 23:47:16 +1000 (EST) Received: from afrb2 (helo=localhost) by red.csi.cam.ac.uk with local-smtp (Exim 1.92 #1) id 0yXnpG-00028L-00; Fri, 8 May 1998 15:08:38 +0100 Date: Fri, 8 May 1998 15:08:38 +0100 (BST) From: Alan Bain X-Sender: afrb2 at red.csi.cam.ac.uk To: "Robert D. Keys" cc: Greg Lehey , tfb at aiai.ed.ac.uk, pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: First edition Unix manuals In-Reply-To: <199805081328.JAA03767 at seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk On Fri, 8 May 1998, Robert D. Keys wrote: > > On Thu, 7 May 1998 at 9:05:02 -0400, Robert D. Keys wrote: > > > I emailed him about the possibility of recreating the roff sources, > > > an I will probably wind up doing that. Then we will have a working > > > set of sources for clean copy. > > > > Great idea. Keep us posted. > > > > Greg > > I have the intro and first few manpages of section 1 done so far. > Maybe a week or so and then if someone will proof them. I will > port them in original roff source, and then make a troff set. > Dennis was wanting someone to tackle an html version. Alas, my > html is not so good. > It shouldn't be that hard to make HTML directly from the roff source (I could probably be persuaded to do something like this, given the roff source first of course!) Alan Bain Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA15594 for pups-liszt; Sat, 9 May 1998 00:14:37 +1000 (EST) Received: from aiai.ed.ac.uk (eigg.aiai.ed.ac.uk [129.215.41.7]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA15587 for ; Sat, 9 May 1998 00:13:57 +1000 (EST) Received: (from tfb at localhost) by aiai.ed.ac.uk (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA20682; Fri, 8 May 1998 15:35:45 +0100 (BST) Date: Fri, 8 May 1998 15:35:45 +0100 (BST) Message-Id: <199805081435.PAA20682 at aiai.ed.ac.uk> From: Tim Bradshaw MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: "Robert D. Keys" Cc: grog at lemis.com (Greg Lehey), pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: First edition Unix manuals In-Reply-To: <199805081328.JAA03767 at seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> References: <19980508083236.N12200 at freebie.lemis.com> <199805081328.JAA03767 at seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> X-Mailer: VM 6.32 under 19.14 XEmacs Lucid Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk * Robert D Keys wrote: > I have the intro and first few manpages of section 1 done so far. > Maybe a week or so and then if someone will proof them. I will > port them in original roff source, and then make a troff set. > Dennis was wanting someone to tackle an html version. Alas, my > html is not so good. I could probably manufacture HTML from roff reasonably rapidly, assuming the originals are vaguely clean. I used to do this for a living at one piunt (:). --tim Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id DAA16019 for pups-liszt; Sat, 9 May 1998 03:03:10 +1000 (EST) Received: from gw.aexp.com (gw.aexp.com [205.138.230.66]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id DAA16014 for ; Sat, 9 May 1998 03:03:03 +1000 (EST) Received: by gw.aexp.com; id KAA05009; Fri, 8 May 1998 10:24:50 -0700 (MST) Received: from mailhub1.ec.aexp.com(148.171.243.131) by gw.aexp.com via gwmail (v99) id xmajh7726; Fri, 8 May 98 10:24:10 -0700 X400-Received: by mta AmexPHXMTA in /c=us/admd=attmail/prmd=amex/; Relayed; 08 May 1998 10:25:16 -0700 X400-Received: by /c=us/admd=attmail/prmd=amex/; Relayed; 08 May 1998 10:25:16 -0700 X400-MTS-Identifier: [/c=us/admd=attmail/prmd=amex/; 0D35C35533FFC066-AmexPHXMTA] Content-Identifier: 0D35C35533FFC066 Content-Return: Allowed X400-Content-Type: P2-1988 ( 22 ) Conversion: Allowed Original-Encoded-Information-Types: IA5-Text Disclose-Recipients: Prohibited Alternate-Recipient: Allowed X400-Originator: Jason.Stevens at aexp.com X400-Recipients: non-disclosure; Message-Id: <0D35C35533FFC066*/c=us/admd=attmail/prmd=amex/o=trs/ou=HUB1/ou=AMEX/s=Stevens/g=Jason/@MHS> Date: 08 May 1998 10:25:16 -0700 From: Jason Stevens To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (Return requested) Subject: Re: Floating Point-The Results Are In! MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk Could it be possible that all the floating point calls are part of the crt.0 initialization libs?! They may be in there as part of a initialization routeen to detect a fp, and use it if it's there, although I really doubt tar would really need an fp call at all.. It sounds like some kind of generic startup thing.. Unfortunatly I don't have any source to anything at the moment... If anyone wants to dive check the startup libs... Oh well until then, I'm just waiting for SCO to send me my no.. :) TTYL! Jason Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA19024 for pups-liszt; Sun, 10 May 1998 00:52:46 +1000 (EST) Received: from jacobs.Geeks.ORG (vmailer at jacobs.Geeks.ORG [209.98.1.1]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA19018 for ; Sun, 10 May 1998 00:52:40 +1000 (EST) Received: by jacobs.Geeks.ORG (VMailer, from userid 403) id 3780A0D9A; Sat, 9 May 1998 10:14:19 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Re: First edition Unix manuals In-Reply-To: from Alan Bain at "May 8, 98 03:08:38 pm" To: afrb2 at hermes.cam.ac.uk (Alan Bain) Date: Sat, 9 May 1998 10:14:19 -0500 (CDT) Cc: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <19980509151419.3780A0D9A at jacobs.Geeks.ORG> From: merlyn@Geeks.ORG (Doug McIntyre) Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk > On Fri, 8 May 1998, Robert D. Keys wrote: >>> On Thu, 7 May 1998 at 9:05:02 -0400, Robert D. Keys wrote: >>>> I emailed him about the possibility of recreating the roff sources, >>>> an I will probably wind up doing that. Then we will have a working >>>> set of sources for clean copy. >>> >>> Great idea. Keep us posted. >>> >>> Greg >> >> I have the intro and first few manpages of section 1 done so far. >> Maybe a week or so and then if someone will proof them. I will >> port them in original roff source, and then make a troff set. >> Dennis was wanting someone to tackle an html version. Alas, my >> html is not so good. >> > It shouldn't be that hard to make HTML directly from the roff source (I > could probably be persuaded to do something like this, given the roff > source first of course!) Or use programs written already to do that, like RosettaMan (at least I still call it that, the author changed its name). Here's a blurb from its announcement. :: PolyglotMan (nee RosettaMan) is a filter for UNIX manual pages. It :: takes as input man pages for a variety of UNIX flavors and produces as :: output a variety of file formats. Currently PolyglotMan accepts man :: pages from the following flavors of UNIX: Hewlett-Packard HP-UX, AT&T :: System V, SunOS, Sun Solaris, OSF/1, DEC Ultrix, SGI IRIX, Linux, SCO, :: FreeBSD; and produces output for the following formats: printable :: ASCII only (stripping page headers and footers), section and :: subsection headers only, TkMan, [tn]roff, RTF, SGML (soon--I finally :: found a DTD), HTML, MIME, LaTeX, LaTeX 2e, Perl 5's pod. Previously :: PolyglotMan required pages to be formatted by nroff prior to :: its processing; with version 3.0, it prefers [tn]roff source and :: usually can produce results that are better yet. :: :: PolyglotMan improves upon other man page filters in several ways: (1) its :: analysis recognizes the structural pieces of man pages, enabling high :: quality output, (2) its modular structure permits easy augmentation of :: output formats, (3) it accepts man pages formatted with the variant :: macros of many different flavors of UNIX, and (4) it doesn't require :: modification of or cooperation with any other program. :: The home location for PolyglotMan is ftp.cs.berkeley.edu: :: /ucb/people/phelps/tcltk/rman.tar.Z (this is a softlink to the latest, :: numbered version). If you discover a bug and you obtained PolyglotMan :: at some other site, first grab it from this one to see if the problem :: has been fixed. This is only for man pages, but probably could take the papers in ms format and give a rough translation, or hack up polyglotman some to do ms as well.. Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA19189 for pups-liszt; Sun, 10 May 1998 01:43:48 +1000 (EST) Received: from renoir.op.net (root at renoir.op.net [209.152.193.4]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA19184 for ; Sun, 10 May 1998 01:43:42 +1000 (EST) Received: from goppelt.op.net (d-phlarc2-0f.ppp.op.net [209.152.199.111]) by renoir.op.net (o1/$Revision: 1.17 $) with SMTP id MAA00978 for ; Sat, 9 May 1998 12:04:55 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199805091604.MAA00978 at renoir.op.net> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Ed G." To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Date: Sat, 9 May 1998 12:04:55 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Visible Front End-advice? Reply-to: edgee at cyberpass.net X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.54) Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk I'd like to write a visible front end for Bob's emulator, but I'm not sure how to go about doing it. What I'd like is another window that shows the state of the emulator--PC, SP, MMR etc.--in real time. Any suggestions/ideas? TIA Ed Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA19863 for pups-liszt; Sun, 10 May 1998 06:21:19 +1000 (EST) Received: from serv1.is4.u-net.net (hme0.serv1.is4.u-net.net [195.102.240.153]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id GAA19858 for ; Sun, 10 May 1998 06:21:12 +1000 (EST) Received: from indy.dunnington.york.ac.uk [195.102.197.32] by serv1.is4.u-net.net with smtp (Exim 1.73 #1) id 0yYGRc-0007QI-00; Sat, 9 May 1998 20:42:08 +0000 Received: by indy.dunnington.york.ac.uk (940816.SGI.8.6.9/980207.PNT) for pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au id UAA01442; Sat, 9 May 1998 20:43:26 GMT Date: Sat, 9 May 1998 20:43:26 GMT From: pete@dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Message-Id: <9805092143.ZM1440 at indy.dunnington.york.ac.uk> Reply-To: pete at dunnington.u-net.com X-Mailer: Z-Mail (3.2.2 10apr95 MediaMail) To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation) Subject: mkfs on an RL02 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk I'm looking for some advice... For the first time in umpteen years, I need to make a bootable 7th Edition system disk on an RL02 that previously had some other O/S on it. This disk has to have the swap space, as well. The machine it will be used on has 256K bytes RAM. How many blocks should I leave for swap? Or, to put it another way, what magic number pair would people suggest I put in the prototype file for the number of blocks and number of inodes? -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA19878 for pups-liszt; Sun, 10 May 1998 06:24:03 +1000 (EST) Received: from serv1.is4.u-net.net (hme0.serv1.is4.u-net.net [195.102.240.153]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id GAA19873 for ; Sun, 10 May 1998 06:23:57 +1000 (EST) Received: from indy.dunnington.york.ac.uk [195.102.197.32] by serv1.is4.u-net.net with smtp (Exim 1.73 #1) id 0yYGUH-0007Qs-00; Sat, 9 May 1998 20:44:54 +0000 Received: by indy.dunnington.york.ac.uk (940816.SGI.8.6.9/980207.PNT) for pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au id UAA01449; Sat, 9 May 1998 20:46:36 GMT Date: Sat, 9 May 1998 20:46:36 GMT From: pete@dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Message-Id: <9805092146.ZM1447 at indy.dunnington.york.ac.uk> In-Reply-To: "Pete Turnbull" "mkfs on an RL02" (May 9, 21:43) References: <9805092143.ZM1440 at indy.dunnington.york.ac.uk> Reply-To: pete at dunnington.u-net.com X-Mailer: Z-Mail (3.2.2 10apr95 MediaMail) To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation) Subject: Re: mkfs on an RL02 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk On May 9, 21:43, Pete Turnbull wrote: > I need to make a bootable 7th Edition system disk on an RL02... and then thought, "I wonder if there's some easy way to tell what numbers were used on an existing system disk, if the prototype file no longer exists?" -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA21159 for pups-liszt; Sun, 10 May 1998 17:55:53 +1000 (EST) Received: from europe.std.com (europe.std.com [199.172.62.20]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA21151 for ; Sun, 10 May 1998 17:55:48 +1000 (EST) Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.7.6/BZS-8-1.0) id EAA12462; Sun, 10 May 1998 04:17:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost by world.std.com (TheWorld/Spike-2.0) id AA29779; Sun, 10 May 1998 01:17:06 -0700 Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 01:17:06 -0700 (PST) From: Brian D Chase To: "Ed G." Cc: Greg Lehey , pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: Floating Point-The Results Are In! In-Reply-To: <199805080414.AAA28438 at renoir.op.net> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk On Fri, 8 May 1998, Ed G. wrote: > > I'll believe this when you pinpoint the instructions. > > Your skepticism spurred me to examine a Unix utility in depth to see > whether my results hold up. They do. Is it possible that you're mistakenly disassembling embedded data as if it were code? And perhaps that those data items contain arrangements of byte values which translate to FP instructions? -brian. --- Brian "JARAI" Chase | http://world.std.com/~bdc/ | VAXZilla LIVES!!! Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA21206 for pups-liszt; Sun, 10 May 1998 18:05:09 +1000 (EST) Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA21201 for ; Sun, 10 May 1998 18:05:06 +1000 (EST) Received: (from wkt at localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id SAA02363; Sun, 10 May 1998 18:26:23 +1000 (EST) From: Warren Toomey Message-Id: <199805100826.SAA02363 at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: Re: mkfs on an RL02 To: pete at dunnington.u-net.com Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 18:26:23 +1000 (EST) Cc: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au In-Reply-To: <9805092143.ZM1440 at indy.dunnington.york.ac.uk> from Pete Turnbull at "May 9, 98 08:43:26 pm" Reply-To: wkt at cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk In article by Pete Turnbull: > I'm looking for some advice... > > For the first time in umpteen years, I need to make a bootable 7th Edition > system disk on an RL02 that previously had some other O/S on it. This disk > has to have the swap space, as well. The machine it will be used on has > 256K bytes RAM. > > How many blocks should I leave for swap? Or, to put it another way, what > magic number pair would people suggest I put in the prototype file for the > number of blocks and number of inodes? The best & only answer here is to consult to xxconf file used to generate the 7th Edition kernel, as this will tell you how much swap to reserve. Vanilla V7 didn't come with RL02 support, so all I can give you are the parameters used for the RL02 images I have here with V7: rl tm root rl 0 swap rl 0 swplo 18000 nswap 2480 In other words, the filesystem should be no bigger than 18,000 blocks. The mkfs manual says: If the prototype file cannot be opened and its name con- sists of a string of digits, mkfs builds a file system with a single empty directory on it. The size of the file system is the value of proto interpreted as a decimal num- ber. The number of i-nodes is calculated as a function of the filsystem size. The boot program is left uninitial- ized. Distribution V7 had roughly 2,600 files & directories. If I had to set a value, I'd choose 5,000 or so. Hope this helps, Warren Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA21220 for pups-liszt; Sun, 10 May 1998 18:06:29 +1000 (EST) Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA21215 for ; Sun, 10 May 1998 18:06:25 +1000 (EST) Received: (from wkt at localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id SAA02382; Sun, 10 May 1998 18:27:43 +1000 (EST) From: Warren Toomey Message-Id: <199805100827.SAA02382 at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: Re: mkfs on an RL02 To: pete at dunnington.u-net.com Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 18:27:43 +1000 (EST) Cc: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation) In-Reply-To: <9805092146.ZM1447 at indy.dunnington.york.ac.uk> from Pete Turnbull at "May 9, 98 08:46:36 pm" Reply-To: wkt at cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk In article by Pete Turnbull: > On May 9, 21:43, Pete Turnbull wrote: > > I need to make a bootable 7th Edition system disk on an RL02... > > and then thought, "I wonder if there's some easy way to tell what numbers > were used on an existing system disk, if the prototype file no longer > exists?" You'd have to disassemble the kernel. Alternatively, consult the size of the free block list on the disk's image. Warren Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA21366 for pups-liszt; Sun, 10 May 1998 19:41:33 +1000 (EST) Received: from serv1.is4.u-net.net (hme0.serv1.is4.u-net.net [195.102.240.153]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id TAA21361 for ; Sun, 10 May 1998 19:41:27 +1000 (EST) Received: from indy.dunnington.york.ac.uk [195.102.197.239] by serv1.is4.u-net.net with smtp (Exim 1.73 #1) id 0yYSvi-0004je-00; Sun, 10 May 1998 10:02:03 +0000 Received: by indy.dunnington.york.ac.uk (940816.SGI.8.6.9/980207.PNT) for pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au id KAA07638; Sun, 10 May 1998 10:02:46 GMT Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 10:02:46 GMT From: pete@dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Message-Id: <9805101102.ZM7636 at indy.dunnington.york.ac.uk> In-Reply-To: Warren Toomey "Re: mkfs on an RL02" (May 10, 18:26) References: <199805100826.SAA02363 at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Reply-To: pete at dunnington.u-net.com X-Mailer: Z-Mail (3.2.2 10apr95 MediaMail) To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: mkfs on an RL02 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk Hi, Warren. On May 10, 18:26, Warren Toomey wrote: > > For the first time in umpteen years, I need to make a bootable 7th > > Edition system disk on an RL02... > > How many blocks should I leave for swap? Or, to put it another way, > > what magic number pair would people suggest I put in the prototype file > > for the number of blocks and number of inodes? > > The best & only answer here is to consult to xxconf file used to generate > the 7th Edition kernel, as this will tell you how much swap to reserve. I should have thought of that! Steven told me the same thing last night. > Vanilla V7 didn't come with RL02 support, so all I can give you are the > parameters used for the RL02 images I have here with V7: > > rl > tm > root rl 0 > swap rl 0 > swplo 18000 > nswap 2480 That looks the same as mine. > In other words, the filesystem should be no bigger than 18,000 blocks. I had a look in the superblock on a couple of bootable RL02s, and found 18,000. > Distribution V7 had roughly 2,600 files & directories. If I had to > set a value, I'd choose 5,000 or so. I knew about using digits for the blocks instead of a proto file, but I thought it might be safer to specify the number for the inodes. I tried to figure it out from the results of icheck but I'm much happier with your suggestion. I'll let you know how I get on. The reason to do this today is two-fold: One of my packs is getting flaky, so I want to make a good copy, with a clean install (most of mine have lots of localised junk), and our department has an Open Day on Wednesday, and I've been coerced into running a display of old machines. The 11T23 is the easiest PDP for me to move there. Thanks for the help! -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA21625 for pups-liszt; Sun, 10 May 1998 21:27:41 +1000 (EST) Received: from Zeke.Update.UU.SE (2026 at Zeke.Update.UU.SE [130.238.11.14]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA21620 for ; Sun, 10 May 1998 21:27:33 +1000 (EST) Received: from localhost (bqt at localhost) by Zeke.Update.UU.SE (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id NAA29830; Sun, 10 May 1998 13:48:24 +0200 Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 13:48:23 +0200 (MET DST) From: Johnny Billquist To: Greg Lehey cc: edgee at cyberpass.net, pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: Floating Point-The Results Are In! In-Reply-To: <19980507110724.M396 at freebie.lemis.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk On Thu, 7 May 1998, Greg Lehey wrote: > On Wed, 6 May 1998 at 20:45:41 -0400, Ed G. wrote: > > Using a new approach, I have re-counted the number of floating point > > operations for the utilities contained in Unix's bin directory. > > According to my results, many important 7th Edition programs such as > > adb, awk and tar make heavy use of floating point on the PDP-11. > > I'll believe this when you pinpoint the instructions. I wouldn't be *that* surprised by these results. For instance, I believe that longs are implemented with FP. And I wouldn't be surprised if a few FP ops were sneaked in to compute some stuff that aren't immediately appearant. Johnny Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at update.uu.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA22385 for pups-liszt; Mon, 11 May 1998 02:30:15 +1000 (EST) Received: from moe.2bsd.com (0 at MOE.2BSD.COM [206.139.202.200]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id CAA22380 for ; Mon, 11 May 1998 02:30:09 +1000 (EST) Received: (from sms at localhost) by moe.2bsd.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA00593 for pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Sun, 10 May 1998 09:49:44 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 09:49:44 -0700 (PDT) From: "Steven M. Schultz" Message-Id: <199805101649.JAA00593 at moe.2bsd.com> To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: Floating Point-The Results Are In! Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk Hi - > From: Johnny Billquist > I wouldn't be *that* surprised by these results. For instance, I believe > that longs are implemented with FP. And I wouldn't be surprised if a few > FP ops were sneaked in to compute some stuff that aren't immediately > appearant. It is true that _some_ long arithmetic is done using FP. The long divide is done that way (at least in 2BSD, I've not looked at V7 yet) because it is much much less code to convert the operands to FP, do the divide, and then convert the result back (the alternative is about two pages of code). Different CPUs handle a fault during a double word push to the stack differently, this was a real difficult problem to track down and fix. If during the FP instruction "movfi fr0,-(sp)" the stackpointer becomes invalid some PDP-11 CPUs handle the fault differently. See 2.11BSD update #150 for the details. The C compiler itself did NOT generate FP unless the operands were explicitly FP (float or double). Most C code was 'int' or 'char *' and no FP code was needed or used for that. FP instructions would be clustered together where the libc.a routines were loaded. The 'ldiv' and 'lrem' routines would have several FP instructions close to each other but the rest of the program would have very few. A program such as 'adb' would have a few FP instructions in the routines that display the FP registers. Oh - there's a bug dating back to V7 in adb. The FP registers for a traced/running process do not display correctly (using adb on a core file works fine). Fixed in 2.11 (see update #405) ;-) Steven Schultz Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA22952 for pups-liszt; Mon, 11 May 1998 06:42:17 +1000 (EST) Received: from serv1.is4.u-net.net (hme0.serv1.is4.u-net.net [195.102.240.153]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id GAA22947 for ; Mon, 11 May 1998 06:42:09 +1000 (EST) Received: from indy.dunnington.york.ac.uk [195.102.197.20] by serv1.is4.u-net.net with smtp (Exim 1.73 #1) id 0yYdEp-0007gr-00; Sun, 10 May 1998 21:02:28 +0000 Received: by indy.dunnington.york.ac.uk (940816.SGI.8.6.9/980207.PNT) for pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au id UAA08058; Sun, 10 May 1998 20:47:11 GMT Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 20:47:11 GMT From: pete@dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Message-Id: <9805102147.ZM8056 at indy.dunnington.york.ac.uk> In-Reply-To: "Steven M. Schultz" "Re: Floating Point-The Results Are In!" (May 10, 9:49) References: <199805101649.JAA00593 at moe.2bsd.com> Reply-To: pete at dunnington.u-net.com X-Mailer: Z-Mail (3.2.2 10apr95 MediaMail) To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: Floating Point-The Results Are In! Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk On May 10, 9:49, Steven M. Schultz wrote: > Subject: Re: Floating Point-The Results Are In! > > > From: Johnny Billquist > > I wouldn't be *that* surprised by these results. For instance, I believe > > that longs are implemented with FP. And I wouldn't be surprised if a few > > FP ops were sneaked in to compute some stuff that aren't immediately > > appearant. > > It is true that _some_ long arithmetic is done using FP. The long > divide is done that way (at least in 2BSD, I've not looked at V7 > yet) because it is much much less code to convert the operands to > FP, do the divide, and then convert the result back (the alternative > is about two pages of code). > The C compiler itself did NOT generate FP unless the operands were > explicitly FP (float or double). Most C code was 'int' or 'char *' > and no FP code was needed or used for that. That bears out what I disovered by accident yesterday -- looking at a 7th Edition UK source distribution for 11/23's and other small machines. The READ_ME file lists the programs that have possible floating point problems, or which might be too big using emulation. I can't remember the details, but the list had a few surprises. Most of the C programs have very little FP, and that is mostly due to a small number of library routines that include FP ops, but one or two programs are exceptional. For example, 'factor' has a lot of FP at the beginning, a chunk in the middle, and a large subroutine near the end, which uses FP to compute square roots using Newton's method. factor is written in assembler, not C, and has much more FP than other things I looked at, but several other programs use a little. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA23210 for pups-liszt; Mon, 11 May 1998 08:44:05 +1000 (EST) Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA23205 for ; Mon, 11 May 1998 08:44:02 +1000 (EST) Received: (from wkt at localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA02896 for pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Mon, 11 May 1998 09:05:06 +1000 (EST) Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA23188 for ; Mon, 11 May 1998 08:37:53 +1000 (EST) Received: (from wkt at localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id IAA02806 for pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Mon, 11 May 1998 08:58:57 +1000 (EST) From: Warren Toomey Message-Id: <199805102258.IAA02806 at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: PUPS Mail List welcome + news To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation) Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 08:58:57 +1000 (EST) Reply-To: wkt at cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk We've had a regular intake of new subscribers to the PUPS mailing list, so I thought I'd say Welcome to all the newcomers. There are now 90 people on the list, and the quantity of messages is increasing daily. The mailing list is also available in a digest form, which is distributed twice a week. If you would rather be on the digest list, send mail to majordomo at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au with the lines in the body of the mail: unsubscribe pups subscribe pups-digest For more information about old UNIX, see the PUPS web pages at http://minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au/PUPS, and the FAQ in particular. The most recent news is that both Bob Supnik and the Begemot team have released new versions of their PDP-11 emulators. A further bug in Bob's emulator was found by Steven Schultz, so we might see a patch to the emulator coming out soon. The PUPS volunteers have been hard at work burning and mailing out the first batch of CDs containing the PUPS Archive, which is now about 520Megs in size. We also have about 30 people with authorised access into the on-line PUPS Archive. Dion at SCO has promised another batch of new UNIX licenses, which I should receive in the next few days. When I do, I'll post the details here. That's all for now. Ciao, Warren Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA23314 for pups-liszt; Mon, 11 May 1998 09:20:25 +1000 (EST) Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA23309 for ; Mon, 11 May 1998 09:20:21 +1000 (EST) Received: (from wkt at localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA02987; Mon, 11 May 1998 09:41:19 +1000 (EST) From: Warren Toomey Message-Id: <199805102341.JAA02987 at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: Re: PUPS Mail List welcome + news To: jkatz at darpanet.net (J. Joseph Max Katz) Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 09:41:19 +1000 (EST) Cc: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation) In-Reply-To: from "J. Joseph Max Katz" at "May 10, 98 04:47:31 pm" Reply-To: wkt at cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk In article by J. Joseph Max Katz: > Hi, > > What's the latest on the 4BSD re-release that Marshal Kirk McKusick > is doing? I've sent the list of people interested to Kirk. He's still a bit vague, but is looking at selling a 4-CD set of all the 4BSD releases for a price around US$100. That's a ballpark number, and will depend on how many people want the set: the more the cheaper it will be. I haven't heard back from him for a week or so. Should I ask him what he is planning? Please, none of this is for public consumption just yet. Cheers, Warren Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id EAA26253 for pups-liszt; Tue, 12 May 1998 04:39:53 +1000 (EST) Received: from mail11.digital.com (mail11.digital.com [192.208.46.10]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id EAA26248 for ; Tue, 12 May 1998 04:39:46 +1000 (EST) Received: from exceng1.ako.dec.com (exceng1.ako.dec.com [16.151.72.50]) by mail11.digital.com (8.8.8/8.8.8/WV1.0e) with ESMTP id PAA07349 for ; Mon, 11 May 1998 15:00:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: by exceng1.ako.dec.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.1960.3) id ; Mon, 11 May 1998 15:00:19 -0400 Message-ID: <6B84B1FF221BD011B0AC08002BE6920671F48E at excmso.mso.dec.com> From: Bob Supnik To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: vi bug found Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 15:01:14 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.1960.3) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk For those who want vi to work before V2.3c is released, the problem is in the divide instruction. Look for: dst = src / src2; if ((dst >= 077777) || (dst < -0100000)) { and change the second line to: if ((dst > 077777) || (dst < -0100000)) { (Thanks to Steve Schultz for finding this.) The magtape bootstrap is also broken, that will be fixed in V2.3c as well. /Bob Supnik Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA27617 for pups-liszt; Tue, 12 May 1998 10:37:37 +1000 (EST) Received: from toad.xkl.com (toad.xkl.com [192.94.202.40]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id KAA27612 for ; Tue, 12 May 1998 10:37:30 +1000 (EST) Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 17:55:24 -0700 From: "Daniel A. Seagraves" Subject: Just got my license from SCO... To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Message-ID: <13354936165.17.DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com> Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk I'm number AU-31. ------- Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA27849 for pups-liszt; Tue, 12 May 1998 12:02:14 +1000 (EST) Received: from renoir.op.net (root at renoir.op.net [209.152.193.4]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA27844 for ; Tue, 12 May 1998 12:02:06 +1000 (EST) Received: from goppelt.op.net (d-phlarc2-0d.ppp.op.net [209.152.199.109]) by renoir.op.net (o1/$Revision: 1.17 $) with SMTP id WAA16927; Mon, 11 May 1998 22:21:24 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199805120221.WAA16927 at renoir.op.net> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Ed G." To: Greg Lehey Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 22:21:12 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Floating Point-The Results Are In! Reply-to: edgee at cyberpass.net CC: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au In-reply-to: <19980508194615.O12200 at freebie.lemis.com> References: <199805080414.AAA28438 at renoir.op.net>; from Ed G. on Fri, May 08, 1998 at 12:14:03AM -0400 X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.54) Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk > I don't know what the code above is intended to do, but it's not > floating point. At the very best, it would indicate the use of the > floating point registers for straightforward data moves. I stand by > my assertion that tar doesn't use floating point, neither in the > Seventh Edition nor elsewhere. I agree: tar doesn't *use* floating point. However, from what I can determine the floating point ops in tar are not some weird way of moving data around, nor is floating point being used to do long arithmetic as some have suggested. Compare the first few tar floating point ops with a dummy program consisting of a single call to scanf: tar, 106 floating point ops: 0: SETD ;170011 20532: STCFD F0,(R1) ;176011 20562: STF F0,(R1) ;174011 22406: LDF F0,(R4)+ ;172424 22410: STF F0,-(SP) ;174046 22460: LDF F0,(R4)+ ;172424 22462: STF F0,-(SP) ;174046 22620: LDF F0,(R4)+ ;172424 22622: STF F0,-(SP) ;174046 24124: LDF F0,4(R5) ;172465 000004 24130: STF F0,-(SP) ;174046 26616: LDF F0,#56200 ;172427 056200 26622: STF F0,177732(R5) ;174065 177732 etc. scanf, 106 floating point ops: 000000: SETD ;170011 002764: STCFD F0,(R1) ;176011 003014: STF F0,(R1) ;174011 004346: LDF F0,(R4)+ ;172424 004350: STF F0,-(SP) ;174046 004420: LDF F0,(R4)+ ;172424 004422: STF F0,-(SP) ;174046 004560: LDF F0,(R4)+ ;172424 004562: STF F0,-(SP) ;174046 004750: LDF F0,4(R5) ;172465 000004 004754: STF F0,-(SP) ;174046 006410: LDF F0,#56200 ;172427 056200 006414: STF F0,177732(R5) ;174065 177732 So it would appear that whatever floating point there is in tar comes from library routines which have been linked in, but which tar does not use. "When you hear hoofbeats, think horses, not zebras." Ed Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA06408 for pups-liszt; Thu, 14 May 1998 10:40:06 +1000 (EST) Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA06400 for ; Thu, 14 May 1998 10:39:58 +1000 (EST) Received: (from wkt at localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id KAA08059; Thu, 14 May 1998 10:59:28 +1000 (EST) From: Warren Toomey Message-Id: <199805140059.KAA08059 at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: More licenses from SCO To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation) Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 10:59:28 +1000 (EST) Reply-To: wkt at cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: application/pgp; format=text; x-action=sign Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- I've received some more UNIX source licenses from SCO. The new licencees are: Craig Bevans, Brian Chase, Efton Collins, Peter Collinson, David Galloway, Jay Jaeger, Dieter Muller, Daniel Seagraves, Jason Stevens, Warren Toomey, Christopher Vance, Norman Wilson, Thomas Zenker. As always, if you are interested in obtaining access to the on-line PUPS Archive, or a copy of it on some form of media (CD, tape etc.), then please mail your request to pupsarchive at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au. You will receive an automated response with more details. The PUPS Volunteers have sent out about 6 CDs so far, and one tape(?). Cheers all, Warren -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.3ia Charset: noconv iQCVAwUBNVpBm0bObQUa2Z5FAQFe7gP9ERhvXqncCx1U5uyzSBo6n5TYm34XCrmi gg0KYOHhG1vNdFuXHviXQa3u9fd/8J1eNlw7e7aKAkNbfjb2jilO0XA8yU+b6D1O LsOwFuoCvgAFpdERIIeIFEmI+/fFEDsSN07/4TOazLkZgyBeWjJ45MYeew1UJZB5 r3lL++opjiA= =4xMV -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA06436 for pups-liszt; Thu, 14 May 1998 10:43:48 +1000 (EST) Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA06429 for ; Thu, 14 May 1998 10:43:44 +1000 (EST) Received: (from wkt at localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA08094; Thu, 14 May 1998 11:03:13 +1000 (EST) From: Warren Toomey Message-Id: <199805140103.LAA08094 at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: Re: More licenses from SCO To: wkt at cs.adfa.oz.au Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 11:03:12 +1000 (EST) Cc: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au In-Reply-To: <199805140059.KAA08059 at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> from Warren Toomey at "May 14, 98 10:59:28 am" Reply-To: wkt at cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk In article by Warren Toomey: > I've received some more UNIX source licenses from SCO. The new licencees are: I forgot to say: Dion gave me license number AU-0, at the behest of the members of the PUPS mailing list. Thanks all!! Warren Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA09954 for pups-liszt; Mon, 18 May 1998 19:54:02 +1000 (EST) Received: from tesla.df.lth.se (tesla.df.lth.se [194.47.252.144]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA09949 for ; Mon, 18 May 1998 19:53:55 +1000 (EST) Received: from lintilla2.df.lth.se (lintilla2.df.lth.se [194.47.252.38]) by tesla.df.lth.se (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id LAA19904; Mon, 18 May 1998 11:51:48 +0200 (MET DST) Received: by lintilla2.df.lth.se (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id LAA13628; Mon, 18 May 1998 11:54:07 +0200 Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 11:54:06 +0200 (MET DST) From: Beastly Wolf To: wkt at cs.adfa.oz.au cc: PDP Unix Preservation Subject: Exploited by spammers. In-Reply-To: <199805140059.KAA08059 at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk Hi all! I want to tell you all how sorry I am for spamming occuring from this site. Due to several reasons it was possible to exploit the lintilla service machines. We hope we have put an end to it now (it was not an easy task since it involved *cringe* beurocracy). If anybody receives spams from lintilla.df.lth.se or lintilla2.df.lth.se from now on please let me know! It should not happen but.... The lintilla services machines does not approve to spam and we try to fight back as hard as we are able. Internet used to be a happy place where people helped eachother and where life was simple and good. Sometimes I long for those days now gone. =( Today it seems that greed and abuse is the rule... Again, sorry for the inconvenience that spamming from this site has caused! Sincerely yours: Lars Persson, the Lintilla services. Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA12548 for pups-liszt; Tue, 19 May 1998 13:03:27 +1000 (EST) Received: from forbin.killthewabbit.org (killthewabbit.org [208.192.43.132]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id NAA12542 for ; Tue, 19 May 1998 13:03:18 +1000 (EST) Message-Id: <199805190148.SAA10957 at forbin.killthewabbit.org> From: "Ian King" To: "PDP Unix Preservation" Subject: Question regarding tape drive interface Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 19:50:09 -0700 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1160 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from base64 to 8bit by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au id NAA12544 Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk OK, this may not be *exactly* the right place to ask this..... I'm in the process of acquiring a PDP-11/34, on which I intend to run *some* flavor of UNIX. I also have a Cipher F-880 tape drive, which I would like to interface with the PDP-11. Reading between the lines of several pages on the Web, it seems it should be possible to do this, but which module is required? And does that prescribe the version of UNIX I'll be able to run? Thanks in advance for any experience you can share! ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ 24 hours in a day, 24 beers in a case. Coincidence? Ian King No opinions but my own. So there. Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA15443 for pups-liszt; Wed, 20 May 1998 05:38:49 +1000 (EST) Received: from post.mail.demon.net (post-12.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.41]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id FAA15438 for ; Wed, 20 May 1998 05:38:41 +1000 (EST) Received: from (falstaf.demon.co.uk) [158.152.152.109] by post.mail.demon.net with smtp (Exim 1.82 #2) id 0ybs9n-0004Zb-00; Tue, 19 May 1998 20:34:39 +0100 Message-ID: <5Im5JEAs5dY1Ewa$@falstaf.demon.co.uk> Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 20:33:00 +0100 To: Ian King Cc: PDP Unix Preservation From: Robin Birch Subject: Re: Question regarding tape drive interface In-Reply-To: <199805190148.SAA10957 at forbin.killthewabbit.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Turnpike (32) Version 3.05 Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk In message <199805190148.SAA10957 at forbin.killthewabbit.org>, Ian King writes >OK, this may not be *exactly* the right place to ask this..... > >I'm in the process of acquiring a PDP-11/34, on which I intend to run *some* >flavor of UNIX. I also have a Cipher F-880 tape drive, which I would like to >interface with the PDP-11. Reading between the lines of several pages on the >Web, it seems it should be possible to do this, but which module is required? >And does that prescribe the version of UNIX I'll be able to run? Thanks in >advance for any experience you can share! >-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >---------------------------------- >24 hours in a day, 24 beers in a case. Coincidence? >Ian King No opinions but my own. So there. Wotcher, You'll need a UNIBUS TS11 card, I don't know the number for this but it should be relatively easy to get hold of. BSD2 certainly supports this. Cheers Robin Robin Birch robin at falstaf.demon.co.uk M1ASU/2E0ARJ Old computers and radios always welcome Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA03403 for pups-liszt; Fri, 29 May 1998 13:12:02 +1000 (EST) Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA03398 for ; Fri, 29 May 1998 13:11:58 +1000 (EST) Received: (from wkt at localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id NAA01694 for pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Fri, 29 May 1998 13:12:02 +1000 (EST) From: Warren Toomey Message-Id: <199805290312.NAA01694 at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: More UNIX Licenses To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation) Date: Fri, 29 May 1998 13:12:02 +1000 (EST) Reply-To: wkt at cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk I've just received licenses from SCO for Don Cruickshank and Hartmut Brandt. Congrats, you two! Ciao, Warren Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA18054 for pups-liszt; Thu, 18 Jun 1998 12:55:01 +1000 (EST) Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA18046 for ; Thu, 18 Jun 1998 12:54:57 +1000 (EST) Received: (from wkt at localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id MAA04029; Thu, 18 Jun 1998 12:54:58 +1000 (EST) From: Warren Toomey Message-Id: <199806180254.MAA04029 at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: Re: More UNIX Licenses To: djenner at halcyon.com Date: Thu, 18 Jun 1998 12:54:57 +1000 (EST) Cc: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation) In-Reply-To: <35887E29.828B78E2 at halcyon.com> from "David C. Jenner" at "Jun 17, 98 07:40:41 pm" Reply-To: wkt at cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk In article by David C. Jenner: > Warren, > > I haven't received any PUPS mailing list since this message. > (May 28th). Are things that slow? It's been quiet! However, I'll send in a test message to wake everybody up :-) Ciao, Warren Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA24887 for pups-liszt; Mon, 6 Jul 1998 13:57:50 +1000 (EST) Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA24882 for ; Mon, 6 Jul 1998 13:57:46 +1000 (EST) Received: (from wkt at localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id NAA07988 for pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Mon, 6 Jul 1998 13:58:23 +1000 (EST) From: Warren Toomey Message-Id: <199807060358.NAA07988 at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: More SCO Licenses + Software Tools To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation) Date: Mon, 6 Jul 1998 13:58:23 +1000 (EST) Reply-To: wkt at cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk All, The following people now have SCO source licenses for ancient Unix: Bruce Robertson, Erick Delios, Kelwin Wylie, Kirsten McIntyre, Matthew Crosby That brings the numbering scheme up to AU-50, but in fact there are 52 SCO source licenses for ancient Unix. The mailing list has been pretty quiet. Hope you're all well. The only news I have is that Norman Wilson is still slowly scanning in the manuals from 2nd to 5th Edition. He now has most (all?) of 5th edition scanned in. I haven't heard from Kirk McKusick, but he's still planning to sell a 4CD set of all the 4BSD releases from CSRG. The cost is still expected to be around US$100, but if he gets flooded with requests, this may come down. Software Tools -------------- I got some mail last week from Deborah Scherrer: I was one of the people who created the Software Tools project and Software Tools Users Group (Peter Salus mentioned us in his book). If you're interested, you might want to include the Software Tools tapes in your collection. She suggested that I contact Barbera Chase, which I did. Barbera (bc at mrdata.netcetera.com) then wrote: Sorry, we don't actually have any of the files online anymore, nor do we have access to a tape drive. What we have are 9-track tapes, probably in 1600bpi. There are three versions of the tools for PDP machines, one for RSX-11 and two for "generic" Unix. I still happen to have several copies of each, and will be glad to send them to you. Just let me know where to send them, and if you happen to have a shipping account number that would be even better ;-) I don't know Barbera's geographic location. However, would anybody in the US be prepared to read these tapes for us, and pass the contents to me for inclusion in the PUPS Archive??! Cheers all, Warren Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA24990 for pups-liszt; Mon, 6 Jul 1998 14:18:43 +1000 (EST) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [139.130.136.133] (may be forged)) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA24985 for ; Mon, 6 Jul 1998 14:18:35 +1000 (EST) Received: (from grog at localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) id NAA07541; Mon, 6 Jul 1998 13:48:29 +0930 (CST) Message-ID: <19980706134828.B6528 at freebie.lemis.com> Date: Mon, 6 Jul 1998 13:48:28 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: wkt at cs.adfa.oz.au, PDP Unix Preservation Subject: Re: More SCO Licenses + Software Tools References: <199807060358.NAA07988 at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: <199807060358.NAA07988 at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>; from Warren Toomey on Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 01:58:23PM +1000 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk On Monday, 6 July 1998 at 13:58:23 +1000, Warren Toomey wrote: > Software Tools > -------------- > > I got some mail last week from Deborah Scherrer: > I was one of the people who created the Software > Tools project and Software Tools Users Group (Peter Salus > mentioned us in his book). If you're interested, you might > want to include the Software Tools tapes in your collection. > > She suggested that I contact Barbera Chase, which I did. > Barbera (bc at mrdata.netcetera.com) then wrote: > Sorry, we don't actually have any of the files online anymore, nor do we > have access to a tape drive. What we have are 9-track tapes, probably in > 1600bpi. There are three versions of the tools for PDP machines, one for > RSX-11 and two for "generic" Unix. I still happen to have several copies > of each, and will be glad to send them to you. Just let me know where to > send them, and if you happen to have a shipping account number that would > be even better ;-) > > I don't know Barbera's geographic location. However, would anybody in the > US be prepared to read these tapes for us, and pass the contents to me for > inclusion in the PUPS Archive??! Registrant: Netcetera, Inc. (NETCETERA-DOM) 11950 Anderson Valley Way P.O. Box 939 Boonville, CA 95415 Domain Name: NETCETERA.COM Administrative Contact: Chase, Barbara L. (BC309) bc at NETCETERA.COM 707-895-2691 Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers finger grog at lemis.com for PGP public key Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA27259 for pups-liszt; Tue, 7 Jul 1998 05:16:41 +1000 (EST) Received: from mgate.nwnexus.com (mgate.nwnexus.com [206.63.63.200]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id FAA27254 for ; Tue, 7 Jul 1998 05:16:34 +1000 (EST) Received: from halcyon.com (blv-lx106-ip42.nwnexus.net [206.63.41.242]) by mgate.nwnexus.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA20935; Mon, 6 Jul 1998 12:15:35 -0700 Message-ID: <35A12252.EFEFE2B0 at halcyon.com> Date: Mon, 06 Jul 1998 12:15:30 -0700 From: "David C. Jenner" Reply-To: djenner at halcyon.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Greg Lehey CC: wkt at cs.adfa.oz.au, PDP Unix Preservation Subject: Re: More SCO Licenses + Software Tools References: <199807060358.NAA07988 at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> <19980706134828.B6528 at freebie.lemis.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk I think having these in the archives would be great. I used the Software Tools extensively back in the late 70's and early 80's. I wish I could read the tapes in, but I'm still working on a tape drive for an 11/73. (see separate mail.) Dave Greg Lehey wrote: > > On Monday, 6 July 1998 at 13:58:23 +1000, Warren Toomey wrote: > > Software Tools > > -------------- > > > > I got some mail last week from Deborah Scherrer: > > I was one of the people who created the Software > > Tools project and Software Tools Users Group (Peter Salus > > mentioned us in his book). If you're interested, you might > > want to include the Software Tools tapes in your collection. > > > > She suggested that I contact Barbera Chase, which I did. > > Barbera (bc at mrdata.netcetera.com) then wrote: > > Sorry, we don't actually have any of the files online anymore, nor do we > > have access to a tape drive. What we have are 9-track tapes, probably in > > 1600bpi. There are three versions of the tools for PDP machines, one for > > RSX-11 and two for "generic" Unix. I still happen to have several copies > > of each, and will be glad to send them to you. Just let me know where to > > send them, and if you happen to have a shipping account number that would > > be even better ;-) > > > > I don't know Barbera's geographic location. However, would anybody in the > > US be prepared to read these tapes for us, and pass the contents to me for > > inclusion in the PUPS Archive??! > > Registrant: > Netcetera, Inc. (NETCETERA-DOM) > 11950 Anderson Valley Way > P.O. Box 939 > Boonville, CA 95415 > > Domain Name: NETCETERA.COM > > Administrative Contact: > Chase, Barbara L. (BC309) bc at NETCETERA.COM > 707-895-2691 > > Greg > -- > See complete headers for address and phone numbers > finger grog at lemis.com for PGP public key Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA27294 for pups-liszt; Tue, 7 Jul 1998 05:31:07 +1000 (EST) Received: from mgate.nwnexus.com (mgate.nwnexus.com [206.63.63.200]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id FAA27289 for ; Tue, 7 Jul 1998 05:30:57 +1000 (EST) Received: from halcyon.com (blv-lx106-ip42.nwnexus.net [206.63.41.242]) by mgate.nwnexus.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA21123; Mon, 6 Jul 1998 12:30:23 -0700 Message-ID: <35A125CA.45FB5455 at halcyon.com> Date: Mon, 06 Jul 1998 12:30:18 -0700 From: "David C. Jenner" Reply-To: djenner at halcyon.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: wkt at cs.adfa.oz.au, PDP Unix Preservation Subject: Generating 2.11BSD boot tape References: <199807060358.NAA07988 at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> <19980706134828.B6528 at freebie.lemis.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk There hasn't been much traffic here for a while, so maybe I can stir things up a bit. I recently acquired a fabulous 9-track tape drive, an M4 9914, which has both a SCSI and a Pertec interface. This drive is so smart I spent a couple of hours playing with it without it being hooked up to any computer. What's nice is that I can presumably get around the "high-cost" bottleneck of using a tape drive on both a PDP-11 and Intel machines: use the SCSI interface on the PC where the interface is cheap (already exists) and use the Pertec interface on the -11 where the interface is cheap (already exists). Using the opposite interface on each machine could run up to a total of $2000 US. So, what I want to do is read my PUPS archive CD-ROM on an Intel machine and write appropriate 9-track tapes for the -11. The stumbling block seems to be software on the Intel side. SCSI software packages for MS-DOS or Windows 3.1/95/98/NT run $600, $800, even $1500US. There must be a way of doing a CD-to-Tape generation with a simple C-language program using one of the "free" OSes: Linux, FreeBSD, SCO UnixWare, etc. If anyone has any experience or ideas with this, I would appreciate your input. It would be very easy for me to install and use one of these OSs on a spare 486 I have. The question is, which is the most likely to support SCSI on 9-track tape. Thanks, Dave Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA28013 for pups-liszt; Tue, 7 Jul 1998 10:13:27 +1000 (EST) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [139.130.136.133] (may be forged)) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA28008 for ; Tue, 7 Jul 1998 10:13:21 +1000 (EST) Received: (from grog at localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) id JAA10688; Tue, 7 Jul 1998 09:43:05 +0930 (CST) Message-ID: <19980707094304.N7792 at freebie.lemis.com> Date: Tue, 7 Jul 1998 09:43:04 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: djenner at halcyon.com, wkt at cs.adfa.oz.au, PDP Unix Preservation Subject: Which PC UNIX for old SCSI tape drive? (was: Generating 2.11BSD boot tape) References: <199807060358.NAA07988 at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> <19980706134828.B6528 at freebie.lemis.com> <35A125CA.45FB5455 at halcyon.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: <35A125CA.45FB5455 at halcyon.com>; from David C. Jenner on Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 12:30:18PM -0700 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk On Monday, 6 July 1998 at 12:30:18 -0700, David C. Jenner wrote: > There hasn't been much traffic here for a while, so maybe I can stir > things up a bit. > > I recently acquired a fabulous 9-track tape drive, an M4 9914, which > has both a SCSI and a Pertec interface. This drive is so smart I > spent a couple of hours playing with it without it being hooked up to > any computer. > > What's nice is that I can presumably get around the "high-cost" > bottleneck of using a tape drive on both a PDP-11 and Intel > machines: use the SCSI interface on the PC where the interface is > cheap (already exists) and use the Pertec interface on the -11 where > the interface is cheap (already exists). Using the opposite interface > on each machine could run up to a total of $2000 US. > > So, what I want to do is read my PUPS archive CD-ROM on an Intel > machine and write appropriate 9-track tapes for the -11. The stumbling > block seems to be software on the Intel side. SCSI software packages > for MS-DOS or Windows 3.1/95/98/NT run $600, $800, even $1500US. > There must be a way of doing a CD-to-Tape generation with a simple > C-language program using one of the "free" OSes: Linux, FreeBSD, > SCO UnixWare, etc. Sure, that's the obvious way to go. > If anyone has any experience or ideas with this, I would appreciate > your input. It would be very easy for me to install and use one of > these OSs on a spare 486 I have. The question is, which is the most > likely to support SCSI on 9-track tape. I think you'll find that they all support SCSI. I'd recommend FreeBSD because I'm involved with it and because it's the closest to 2.11BSD. Next, I'd recommend Linux, because you have the sources. You could have trouble with UnixWare, in which case there wouldn't be much you could do about it. If you do have any problems with FreeBSD, let me know and I'll see what I can do. Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers finger grog at lemis.com for PGP public key Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA00657 for pups-liszt; Tue, 7 Jul 1998 16:24:57 +1000 (EST) Received: from post.mail.demon.net (post-12.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.41]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id QAA00649 for ; Tue, 7 Jul 1998 16:24:50 +1000 (EST) Received: from (XPUPPY) [193.237.190.229] by post.mail.demon.net with smtp (Exim 1.82 #2) id 0ytRAe-00009v-00; Tue, 7 Jul 1998 06:24:09 +0000 Received: by XPUPPY with Microsoft Mail id <01BDA978.2E5F7760 at XPUPPY>; Tue, 7 Jul 1998 07:23:47 +0100 Message-ID: <01BDA978.2E5F7760 at XPUPPY> From: Kevin Murrell To: "'PDP Unix Preservation'" Subject: DEC in the UK and Dilog Date: Tue, 7 Jul 1998 07:20:53 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au id QAA00650 Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk Can anyone shed any light on a company called Dilog. Having acquired two Dilog machines they appear to actually both be PDP-11s. Dilog seemed to have produced DEC compatible hardware for the UK market. In particular the smaller machine was known as a Vixen. This would appear to be a PDP-11/73 with the DEC M8192 processor card. Indeed the processor card is the only actual DEC product. Colleagues that used this machine described it as the portable PDP-11 - however we are not talking laptop here :) The 'Vixen' has a Dilog disk controller with a Seagate ST251 attached. The machine is currently running DSM-11 and recognises the drive as a RA81. I hope to produce a list relating the Dilog part numbers to original DEC part numbers. Any help or suggestions gratefully received. Kevin Murrell Birmingham, England. Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA02684 for pups-liszt; Wed, 8 Jul 1998 01:48:44 +1000 (EST) Received: from seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu (seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu [152.1.88.4]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA02679 for ; Wed, 8 Jul 1998 01:48:37 +1000 (EST) Received: (from rdkeys at localhost) by seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA00178; Tue, 7 Jul 1998 11:44:16 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from rdkeys) From: "User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys" Message-Id: <199807071544.LAA00178 at seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> Subject: Newbie Alert: Which is a ``best'' pdp-11 to look for????? In-Reply-To: <199807060358.NAA07988 at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> from Warren Toomey at "Jul 6, 98 01:58:23 pm" To: wkt at cs.adfa.oz.au Date: Tue, 7 Jul 1998 11:44:14 -0400 (EDT) Cc: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL38 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk > All, > The following people now have SCO source licenses for ancient Unix: Neato.... I am beginning to think it might be a fun thing to do. As the newbie aboard, what pdp-11, vax, or other dec machine would be one to shoot for. Some are largish beasts, but for the Joe Homehobby type that wants to run one in the basement, what would be a reasonable combination of parts or units (or a whole machine) to look for? Occasionally machines float up from the bilges here in central NC, USA, and usually they wind up dumpster fodder. Rather than see that happen, if I had a choice, what should I be looking for? For convenience, if there was something that would fit in half a relay rack or so, that might be nice. Also, if it could run with standard cartridge tapes (DC300/450/600) sized things, that would be advantageous, since I have a number of those things and nil reel to reel drives. > I haven't heard from Kirk McKusick, but he's still planning to sell a 4CD > set of all the 4BSD releases from CSRG. The cost is still expected to be > around US$100, but if he gets flooded with requests, this may come down. That would be something worthwhile to have, just for posterity. > Software Tools > -------------- ...... > I don't know Barbera's geographic location. However, would anybody in the > US be prepared to read these tapes for us, and pass the contents to me for > inclusion in the PUPS Archive??! I just checked our folks.... nil reel-to-reel drives anymore..... shucks. One of the technical high schools has the only one left here in NC. Bob Keys p.s. Are there any USA NC folks on the list, or just me? Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA04090 for pups-liszt; Wed, 8 Jul 1998 10:15:13 +1000 (EST) Received: from moe.2bsd.com (0 at MOE.2BSD.COM [206.139.202.200]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA04085 for ; Wed, 8 Jul 1998 10:15:06 +1000 (EST) Received: (from sms at localhost) by moe.2bsd.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id RAA05047; Tue, 7 Jul 1998 17:14:47 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 7 Jul 1998 17:14:47 -0700 (PDT) From: "Steven M. Schultz" Message-Id: <199807080014.RAA05047 at moe.2bsd.com> To: kevin at xpuppy.demon.co.uk, pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: DEC in the UK and Dilog Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk Hi - > From: Kevin Murrell Linebreaks please? 72-80 columns would be nice ;) > Can anyone shed any light on a company called Dilog. Not sure if they're still in the DEC business but at one time they were one of the major 3rd party vendors making Qbus and Unibus controllers. > Having acquired two Dilog machines they appear to actually both be PDP-11s. > Dilog seemed to have produced DEC compatible hardware for the UK market. I never heard of Dilog making entire systems. You'd typically buy the box from DEC (but without any controllers or as few as you could order a system from DEC with) and then stuff it with Emulex or Dilog adaptors. > In particular the smaller machine was known as a Vixen. Sounds like an OEM somewhere was buying bare systems from DEC and placing Dilog cards in them. > This would appear to be a PDP-11/73 with the DEC M8192 processor card. Indeed it is. > Indeed the processor card is the only actual DEC product. > Colleagues that used this machine described it as the portable PDP-11 - >however we are not talking laptop here :) What are the dimensions? It likely is a BA-23 box. "Transportable" would be appropriate - unless you've a *huge* (and sturdy) lap ;) > The 'Vixen' has a Dilog disk controller with a Seagate ST251 attached. > The machine is currently running DSM-11 and recognises the drive as a RA81. > I hope to produce a list relating the Dilog part numbers to original DEC > part numbers. It was/is common for controller cards to call anything over ~150mb an 'ra81' just to give the software a diskid it knew about. On the various Dilog cards you should find (either on the spine/handles or the card's front/back) a name. Something like "DQ696" (a disk controller) or "DQ132" (tape controller). If you can find any numbers at all let us know and we can probably id them for you. Steven Schultz sms at moe.2bsd.com Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA04178 for pups-liszt; Wed, 8 Jul 1998 10:52:45 +1000 (EST) Received: from lion.cs.yorku.ca (lion.cs.yorku.ca [130.63.86.25]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id KAA04173 for ; Wed, 8 Jul 1998 10:52:39 +1000 (EST) From: norman@cs.yorku.ca (Norman Wilson) Date: Tue, 7 Jul 1998 20:52:35 -0400 Message-Id: Received: from [130.63.92.142] (csts-ip-2.cs.yorku.ca) by lion.cs.yorku.ca id 1867; Tue, 7 Jul 1998 20:52:34 To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: DEC in the UK and Dilog Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk As Steven Schultz says, Dilog used to make a lot of DEC-compatible peripheral gear. The old company has been gone for years, but there is a descendant in Switzerland; see http://www.dilog.ch for details and contacts. There are still people there who can dig up info about old Dilog Qbus interfaces; I have discovered this empirically. Perhaps they know about the Vixen box; certainly they can likely find out about the Dilog disk controller. Norman Wilson Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA04264 for pups-liszt; Wed, 8 Jul 1998 11:34:31 +1000 (EST) Received: from blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu (blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu [129.22.50.4]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id LAA04259 for ; Wed, 8 Jul 1998 11:34:25 +1000 (EST) Received: by blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu (5.57/Ultrix3.0-C) id AA00916; Tue, 7 Jul 98 21:34:55 -0400 Date: Tue, 7 Jul 98 21:34:55 -0400 From: msokolov@blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu (Michael Sokolov) Message-Id: <9807080134.AA00916 at blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu> To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: DEC in the UK and Dilog Cc: kevin at xpuppy.demon.co.uk Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk Steven M. Schultz wrote: > > Can anyone shed any light on a company called Dilog. > > Not sure if they're still in the DEC business but at one time they > were one of the major 3rd party vendors making Qbus and Unibus > controllers. I don't know if it's their only business, but they still sell (and hopefully make) these controllers. One of their guys was trying to sell me one just a few months ago. Of course, their prices are way off-base compared to the used market. Sincerely, Michael Sokolov Phone: 216-368-6888 (Office) 440-449-0299 (Home) 216-217-2579 (Cellular) ARPA Internet SMTP mail: msokolov at blackwidow.cwru.edu Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA19102 for pups-liszt; Sun, 12 Jul 1998 12:59:30 +1000 (EST) Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA19097 for ; Sun, 12 Jul 1998 12:59:26 +1000 (EST) Received: (from wkt at localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id MAA01524; Sun, 12 Jul 1998 12:59:32 +1000 (EST) From: Warren Toomey Message-Id: <199807120259.MAA01524 at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: Re: PUPS To: jim at sco.COM (Jim Sullivan) Date: Sun, 12 Jul 1998 12:59:31 +1000 (EST) Cc: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation) In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19980710080445.00691374 at mammoth.sco.com> from Jim Sullivan at "Jul 10, 98 11:12:48 am" Reply-To: wkt at cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk In article by Jim Sullivan: > Do you know if anyone from PUPS is going to SCO Forum/Usenix in > August in Santa Cruz? > > If so, we'd love to connect, if just to say Hi! > > Also, SCO has a quarterly Developer's newsletter, called CoreDump. > Would anyone within PUPS be interested in submitting an article > for the next edition? 500 words outlining the goals of PUPS > and how to join/participate? Seems like a nice way to quietly > promote your efforts. > > What do you think? Hi Jim, I'll pass this email on to the mailing list. I'll probably take you up on the article. Thanks! I'm in Australia & not likely to get to Santa Cruz in any hurry. :-( Ciao, Warren Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA21845 for pups-liszt; Mon, 13 Jul 1998 13:47:50 +1000 (EST) Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA21838 for ; Mon, 13 Jul 1998 13:47:46 +1000 (EST) Received: (from wkt at localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id NAA07263; Mon, 13 Jul 1998 13:47:55 +1000 (EST) From: Warren Toomey Message-Id: <199807130347.NAA07263 at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: Recovering old UNIX manuals To: norman at nose.cs.yorku.ca Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 13:47:55 +1000 (EST) Cc: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation) In-Reply-To: from "norman at nose.cs.yorku.ca" at "Jul 12, 98 10:20:04 pm" Reply-To: wkt at cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk All, I'm forwarding on Norman's e-mail describing his efforts at converting his paper-only copies of the early UNIX manuals back into machine-readable format. Warren norman at nose.cs.yorku.ca writes: > The first pass of markup is all done on chapter I of 5e, which is > all I have scanned so far. It is tempting to forge ahead on the > text extracted from Dennis's 1e, but I hope to discipline myself > to finish some surrounding documentation and tools. On each front, > right now there is: > - a small collection of tools to pre-process what comes out > of the OCR into something that is easy to mark up. > Specifically there are a couple of little filters that > fix up the non-ASCII characters emitted by the Mac, and > that glue hyphenated words back together; and a rather > bigger awk script that does some of the easy grunt work > like spotting and marking up entry titles and section headers. > - a description of the markup language (written in itself, > of course). > - a program (also in awk, and surprisingly long) to render > the markup language into approximately V7 -man. (I have > actually done all the work so far on the MicroVAX in my > basement, which is one of the last remaining V10 systems > in the world, and it won't surprise me to learn that the > renderer has accidentally picked up some V10-specific > assumptions.) > - a collection of advice on style and known OCR botches > and whatnot for those who mark up and proof the manuals > as they go through the pipe. (At the moment `those' means > me and my collaborator in California.) > > The most important missing tools and writings are something to render > into HTML, and something that explains a little more generally just > what it is I am doing (and how it differs from what Dennis did, and > for that matter from just trying to regenerate the original troff > input) and describes the tools and so on. My current hope is to > get those done in odd moments this week; once I have a decent > approximation of each, I want to put copies of all the documents > and all the tools and a few sample pages from 5e up on the web, so > people have something to look at and I can get comments from a wider > group. (Obviously I'll drop a note to the PUPS mailing list when > things are up there.) > > While I'm writing the HTML renderer and the missing document this > week, my colleague in California has already begun an independent > proofreading pass over the stuff I've marked up, which is a damn > good thing because I can't see the errors any more (and she has > already spotted some). > > The other tools I know are missing are > - some sort of structure to allow the old pre-typesetter manuals > to be rendered in a good approximation of their original form. > At the moment I expect this will just be a troff macro package > with the syntax of V7 -man, so I can just use the existing renderer, > though I can see some font issues looming that may cause force the > renderer to change (perhaps in a way general enough that there will > still be only one renderer). > - something to allow V6-era -man (or /usr/man/man0/naa, to name it > properly) macros to work too; the obvious cheap way out is something > that translates V7 -man to V6, presumably with the knowledge that what > it is translating came out of my markto7man renderer (which restricts > the language quite a bit, so the job is a lot simpler). I'm not sure > how important this is--the obvious short-term goal is to be able to > have a man command in the V5 environment, and since the macros probably > aren't in the existing distribution, it's fair game to bring in a copy > of the V7 ones--but it seems worth having in the long run if only for > fun. > > I'd originally thought to write more of the tools before doing so > much markup, but I'm glad I didn't--the markup language mutated more > than I expected as experience showed where it was wrong, and it made > life simpler to have only one renderer to update. I think it is > pretty much stable now, and in any case I am champing at the bit to > be able to display things in HTML. > > A final complication in all this: it is all but certain that I'll > be resigning from York this week, effective in about a month, to > jump back to a position at the University of Toronto (running > computers for the Canadian Institute for Theoretical Astrophysics). > This is not a surprise to anyone concerned (including the folks here > at York--the real reason for the move is that the eleven-mile commute > to York is just too long for me), but it will certainly have both > short- and long-term effects on the time I can spend on the manuals. > The long-term effects may not be what you think, though: the scanner > and OCR setup I've been using is located at CITA, so once I've settled > in there (and especially once I get the tools sorted out well enough > that it is effectively a pipeline), it should be pretty convenient > to spend the odd hour scanning in a handful of pages. Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA23544 for pups-liszt; Mon, 13 Jul 1998 23:49:16 +1000 (EST) Received: from seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu (seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu [152.1.88.4]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA23539 for ; Mon, 13 Jul 1998 23:49:09 +1000 (EST) Received: (from rdkeys at localhost) by seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA12765; Mon, 13 Jul 1998 09:44:44 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from rdkeys) From: "User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys" Message-Id: <199807131344.JAA12765 at seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> Subject: Re: Recovering old UNIX manuals In-Reply-To: <199807130347.NAA07263 at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> from Warren Toomey at "Jul 13, 98 01:47:55 pm" To: wkt at cs.adfa.oz.au Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 09:44:42 -0400 (EDT) Cc: norman at nose.cs.yorku.ca, pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL38 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk > All, > I'm forwarding on Norman's e-mail describing his efforts at > converting his paper-only copies of the early UNIX manuals back into > machine-readable format. > > Warren > > norman at nose.cs.yorku.ca writes: > > The first pass of markup is all done on chapter I of 5e, which is > > all I have scanned so far. It is tempting to forge ahead on the > > text extracted from Dennis's 1e, but I hope to discipline myself > > to finish some surrounding documentation and tools. On each front, > > right now there is: On a similar bent, I have been working on roffing Dennis' V1 manuals, using the earliest roff I could still find some sort of source to. It is one that was popular in the early CP/M days, that also found its way into dos and unix. How true to the original it is, I dunno, but it works. They are about 2/3 done, maybe, but my time to get them done is not as much as I would like. What should I do with them once they are done? I was thinking of just sending the source/output back to Dennis, but if it is OK to put them in in the PUPS archives, I can bounce them to Warren. Thanks to Dennis Ritchie for making them available. Bob Keys p.s. You know, with all this html thingie, whatever happened to just a real roff/nroff/troff output? It is only ascii. Why html? Just curious as to why/wherefore/etc. Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id EAA25462 for pups-liszt; Tue, 14 Jul 1998 04:59:08 +1000 (EST) Received: from lion.cs.yorku.ca (lion.cs.yorku.ca [130.63.86.25]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id EAA25457 for ; Tue, 14 Jul 1998 04:59:01 +1000 (EST) From: norman@nose.cs.yorku.ca Message-Id: Received: from [130.63.92.142] (csts-ip-2.cs.yorku.ca) by lion.cs.yorku.ca id 19605; Mon, 13 Jul 1998 14:58:53 To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 14:58:18 -0400 Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk I hadn't expected Warren to forward my note directly to the list, so perhaps I'd better fill in some of the missing content. What I'm trying to do with the old manuals is a mix of different sorts of historic preservation: it's interesting to be able to produce something reasonably close to the original in appearance, including style differences, but I am also interested just in making the content accessible. That means being able to render the manual pages into troff -man on modern UNIX systems, or into nroff /man/man0/naa in the V5 root image, and roff and whatnot; but also into HTML because that's the right way to make text available on the web (Postscript is not text), and certainly into other forms I haven't thought of yet. To describe it all in utterly pragmatic terms, I want to be able to put all the old manuals up on the web somewhere in readable text form (not just page images or Postscript); and to produce manual data of authentic content and reasonably authentic style for use with the V5 binary distribution; and to be able to to print clear reference copies for myself, so I can pack my old photocopies away in a safe place; and to amuse myself by running style and diction on the different editions; and I want to be able to do that even if I don't have a copy of roff or the appropriate age-authentic macro package. So the idea is to mark up the text in a sufficiently high-level form that it can be rendered into any of the forms above (including the ones I haven't thought of) without undo work. I thought briefly about using the (V7-era) -man macros as the high-level language, and in fact much of the simple language I ended up inventing are obviously drawn from -man (e.g. there are constructs that are exactly .TH, .SH, and .SS spelled differently); but I wanted to avoid the temptation just to toss in more and more troff-specific syntax and semantics whenever some hard-to-represent construct popped up. (There are too many low-level constructs in the resulting language as it is.) I also thought about using some existing document metalanguage like XML or YODL, but those I looked at were far more ornate than seemed appropriate, and far too free-form; I don't mind carrying a few medium-sized awk programs around to render the text, but I object to having to port a language-processing subsystem larger than the V5 kernel just so I can render V5's manual pages. (Never mind how large awk and troff are these days.) There's a name I should also name here: my collaborator in California to whom the earlier message alludes is Jennine Townsend, who has photocopies of my photocopies from a sort of earlier collaboration. More on this in a few days; as I said to Warren, I hope to get a coherent sample of all this work up on the web shortly so people can see what I'm doing in more detail and comment, but I am in the midst of deciding whether to change jobs (it is a coincidence that the likely job change would put me nearer the OCR setup I've been using, but it is convenient), and in getting back into the swing of things at my present job after being out for two weeks to recover from having corrective maintenance on my sinuses, so it may not happen till the weekend. Norman Wilson Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA25486 for pups-liszt; Tue, 14 Jul 1998 05:00:33 +1000 (EST) Received: from lion.cs.yorku.ca (lion.cs.yorku.ca [130.63.86.25]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id FAA25481 for ; Tue, 14 Jul 1998 05:00:27 +1000 (EST) From: norman@nose.cs.yorku.ca Message-Id: Received: from [130.63.92.142] (csts-ip-2.cs.yorku.ca) by lion.cs.yorku.ca id 19678; Mon, 13 Jul 1998 15:00:22 To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 14:59:47 -0400 Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk A postscript to my note on the old manuyals (typed into the editor but not written out before I sent the mail!): A note on distributing this stuff: I asked Dennis about it before I started my project, and he thought there should be no real problem making the text generally available, but that it would be appropriate for the official repository to be at Bell Labs (now a once-again-visible subsidiary of Lucent Technologies). That seems pretty sensible to me. I doubt there's a problem putting them in the PUPS archive, but it would be politic to check with Dennis first. Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA01345 for pups-liszt; Wed, 29 Jul 1998 13:55:27 +1000 (EST) Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA01340 for ; Wed, 29 Jul 1998 13:55:23 +1000 (EST) Received: (from wkt at localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id NAA05056 for pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Wed, 29 Jul 1998 13:55:36 +1000 (EST) From: Warren Toomey Message-Id: <199807290355.NAA05056 at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: PUPS: status report To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation) Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 13:55:36 +1000 (EST) Reply-To: wkt at cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk Hi all, Not much has been hapenning in the PDP UNIX Preservation Society. Kirk McKusick is still waiting for the CD pressing company to do his run of 4BSD CDs. I'm urging him to make a web page describing the project, so we can stay informed of the progress. A few people in comp.unix.bsd.misc suggested that another preservation society needs to be formed, to preserve 32-bit UNIXes and other non PDP-11 UNIXes. I've set up a mailing list for them to discuss such a project. If you are interested, then you can join the mailing list by emailing to majordomo at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au, with a line in the body saying: subscribe bups BUPS stands for BIG UNIX Preservation Society. I'm sure they will come up with a better name :-) Cheers all, Warren Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA03282 for pups-liszt; Thu, 30 Jul 1998 01:08:39 +1000 (EST) Received: from seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu (seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu [152.1.88.4]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA03271; Thu, 30 Jul 1998 01:08:25 +1000 (EST) Received: (from rdkeys at localhost) by seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA03577; Wed, 29 Jul 1998 11:03:49 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from rdkeys) From: "User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys" Message-Id: <199807291503.LAA03577 at seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> Subject: Re: PUPS and BUPS (burp!) thoughts..... In-Reply-To: <199807290355.NAA05056 at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> from Warren Toomey at "Jul 29, 98 01:55:36 pm" To: wkt at cs.adfa.oz.au Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 11:03:47 -0400 (EDT) Cc: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au, bups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL38 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk > Hi all, > Not much has been hapenning in the PDP UNIX Preservation Society. > Kirk McKusick is still waiting for the CD pressing company to do his run > of 4BSD CDs. I'm urging him to make a web page describing the project, so > we can stay informed of the progress. This will be great when it happens. Kudos to Kirk.....and all the unsung heroes along the path to Nirvana. > A few people in comp.unix.bsd.misc suggested that another preservation > society needs to be formed, to preserve 32-bit UNIXes and other non PDP-11 > UNIXes. I've set up a mailing list for them to discuss such a project. > If you are interested, then you can join the mailing list by emailing > to majordomo at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au, with a line in the body saying: > > subscribe bups > > BUPS stands for BIG UNIX Preservation Society. I'm sure they will come > up with a better name :-) PUPS, BUPS, burp! Sounds fine! I will jump in the hotseat and own up to the heat. My idea was very simple. Mainly, I was thinking that there are beginning to surface from the bilges of surplus, a fair number of aging old-time unix toys. Not all of them are PDP-11ish flavor. For instance, there are sometimes found some of the ancient Radio Shack Model 16 things with an odd flavor of Xenix on them. There are maybe some old vaxen going wanting. There are odd bilgewater sloshers like my old IBM RT that once did ply the waters of the great BSD (of the 4.3 style flavor). Also, there are older x86 toys that use to run the very lowendian V7ish, Xenixish, whateverish flavors. From the purely hobby and historical perspective, I find it rather wasteful to let such things just vaporize. It seems we have the PDP11 world, then there is a big black hole until the modern SCOish and Freebieish things. It is obvious that none of the old toys are going to be competing with the rush to NT and SCOish things. Thus, there is a need to maybe fill that hole with something like the PUPS, but for 32bitish toys, and all the non-PDP-11 toys. One thing that PUPS has going, is a good working basis with all the unixy world, the big players, the historical saints, etc. So, it was logical to perceive that such a working framework might be expanded slightly to include not just 32V, but all the odd successors, down to where SCO claims rightly its territory on the SysV part of the tree. IF that framework is a BUPS offshoot, so-be-it. But, I still think that both PUPS and the new BUPS share much common cammaraderie and playground. Alas, I am not yet of sufficient rank to be called but a lowly journeyman, in the unixy world. I have run it in earnest for some 10 years, played some with it on a PDP-11, so long ago, that it is mostly forgotten, and still keep a set of 8 inch Xenix floppers around, just in case that mystical Model 16B drops by, again. Thus, there is not a lot I can do. But, I do toss out the idea, would like to see where it goes. Mebbie some heavyweight gurus would like to run with it some..... Let us roll it around a bit, and see where the currents takes us. The 32BitBiggieUPS should not be forgotten. I think it can only be good for all to make it play..... Sincerely R.D. Keys rdkeys at seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu > Cheers all, > Warren Cheers all hands aboard PUPS, BUPS, .... burp!, .... whatever..... RDK Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA03488 for pups-liszt; Thu, 30 Jul 1998 01:52:41 +1000 (EST) Received: from blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu (blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu [129.22.50.4]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id BAA03483; Thu, 30 Jul 1998 01:52:32 +1000 (EST) Received: by blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu (5.57/Ultrix3.0-C) id AA12576; Wed, 29 Jul 98 11:52:57 -0400 Date: Wed, 29 Jul 98 11:52:57 -0400 From: msokolov@blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu (Michael Sokolov) Message-Id: <9807291552.AA12576 at blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu> To: bups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au, pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: PUPS and BUPS (burp!) thoughts..... Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk "User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys" wrote: > It is obvious that none of the old toys are going to be competing with > the rush to NT and SCOish things. Excuse me, sir, but I have to make a point here. They _ARE_ competing! My office is the largest room in the department, and it's filled with VAXen of all kinds. My goal is to get 4.3BSD-* running on all of them and operate this system in direct competition with other UNIX systems on our campus, which are all Pentiums or SPARCs. Since my system administration skills and friendliness to students surpass those of other campus UNIX systems' admins by many orders of binary magnitude, I plan to urge people to migrate to my VAXen this way. Yes, my plan is total world VAX domination! This is exactly why I want to modify Berkeley VAX UNIX to run on all VAX models from 11/780 to 10000. (An EXTREMELY daring and ambitious goal, needless to say.) I have two strong and radical views: 0. The only higher-than-PDP-11 computers that can be allowed to run UNIX are DEC VAXen. I oppose the idea of running UNIX on PeeCees and shit like that. 1. I consider it the ultimate in blasphemy to attempt to create "UNIX clones" that people dare to call "Unix" but don't really contain any code written by God Ritchie, God Thompson, or God Kernighan. I never use any "free Unices" like FreeBSD and NetBSD. Right now I use Ultrix and SunOS, which are kosher in the above sense but binary-only for most people. The latter part is why I want to move to 4.3BSD-*. Also my belief in True licensed UNIX(R) is the reason I have joined PUPS, as it seems to be the only remaining group dealing with such UNIX. Sincerely, Michael Sokolov Phone: 216-368-6888 (Office) 440-449-0299 (Home) 216-217-2579 (Cellular) ARPA Internet SMTP mail: msokolov at blackwidow.cwru.edu Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA03595 for pups-liszt; Thu, 30 Jul 1998 02:31:20 +1000 (EST) Received: from europe.std.com (europe.std.com [199.172.62.20]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id CAA03590 for ; Thu, 30 Jul 1998 02:31:15 +1000 (EST) Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.7.6/BZS-8-1.0) id MAA29168; Wed, 29 Jul 1998 12:31:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: by world.std.com (TheWorld/Spike-2.0) id AA16185; Wed, 29 Jul 1998 12:31:06 -0400 Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 12:31:06 -0400 From: allisonp@world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Message-Id: <199807291631.AA16185 at world.std.com> To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: PUPS and BUPS (burp!) thoughts..... Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk < Excuse me, sir, but I have to make a point here. They _ARE_ competing Not an undesireable thing. May the best win... for the rest of us any is better than zero. < 0. The only higher-than-PDP-11 computers that can be allowed to run U < are DEC VAXen. I oppose the idea of running UNIX on PeeCees and shit lik < that. That is also wrong, as Interdata 8/32, IBM System/370 and Honeywell 6000 are recognized as ports by K&R in their docs! the latter three systems while interesting are not general collectors fare as they tend to be a bit large. Frankly, why not? Anything that competes with MS is good! < 1. I consider it the ultimate in blasphemy to attempt to create "UNI < clones" that people dare to call "Unix" but don't really contain any cod < written by God Ritchie, God Thompson, or God Kernighan. I never use any < "free Unices" like FreeBSD and NetBSD. Right now I use Ultrix and SunOS It was God Bell Labs (nee WE) that K&R worked for that put the odious license fees on unix, in 1980 it was a mere $24,000 for the sources which were a must have. People started doing clones to break free of the license and distributions that didn't contain sources. It made possible to get on platforms that were unsupported/unsupportable without source code or at least for the commercial versions at lower cost to the user. Venix for Pro350 is such an example (it's v6 or v7 code!). I'm not saying the clones are good or bad, only born of necessity. Of course they couldn't contain and of said God code due to licenses. Like all gods their feet are of clay. Since the goal is to preserve unix and unix like OSs there is no crime, even if the varients are not direct decendents. So long as people understand the lineage preservation should certainly should proceed. Allison Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id DAA03871 for pups-liszt; Thu, 30 Jul 1998 03:31:54 +1000 (EST) Received: from seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu (seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu [152.1.88.4]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id DAA03866; Thu, 30 Jul 1998 03:31:47 +1000 (EST) Received: (from rdkeys at localhost) by seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA04034; Wed, 29 Jul 1998 13:27:14 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from rdkeys) From: "User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys" Message-Id: <199807291727.NAA04034 at seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> Subject: Re: PUPS and BUPS (burp!) thoughts..... In-Reply-To: <9807291552.AA12576 at blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu> from Michael Sokolov at "Jul 29, 98 11:52:57 am" To: msokolov at blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu (Michael Sokolov) Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 13:27:12 -0400 (EDT) Cc: bups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au, pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL38 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk > "User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys" wrote: > > It is obvious that none of the old toys are going to be competing with > > the rush to NT and SCOish things. > > Excuse me, sir, but I have to make a point here. They _ARE_ competing! No excuses necessary. But, please relax a bit and don't let the blood boil to much. All of us here, are interested in the preservation of the beast. Granted many may run it for a living, me included, to some extent. But, likewise most or many of us are the same folks that have a vaxen or pdp-11 in the basement (I remember seeing a pix of one of our leader's machines next to the kitchen fridge?). Clearly, the basement/kitchen toys are not competing. They are purely hobby related. My dumpster risc box won't ever compete again, but is fun to spin up a TeX and troff on. > My office is the largest room in the department, and it's filled with VAXen > of all kinds. My goal is to get 4.3BSD-* running on all of them and operate > this system in direct competition with other UNIX systems on our campus, > which are all Pentiums or SPARCs. Since my system administration skills and > friendliness to students surpass those of other campus UNIX systems' admins > by many orders of binary magnitude, I plan to urge people to migrate to my > VAXen this way. Yes, my plan is total world VAX domination! This is exactly > why I want to modify Berkeley VAX UNIX to run on all VAX models from 11/780 > to 10000. (An EXTREMELY daring and ambitious goal, needless to say.) Clearly yours are more mainstream related. Kudos for the sysadmin handholding towards the students. Mentoring, one on one is the best way to handle many computer learning things. Although vaxen may dominate the world (or did at one time, according to Henry Spencer's infamous ten commandments for C programmers), there are many lesser breeds that I sense others of us partake of. Also, there are insufficient numbers of remaining vaxen and pdp-11's for all of us to have one in the home hobbyroom. Because of that, I would suggest that maybe there is interest in the other lines of machines and their related unices, even the 32bitters. > I have two strong and radical views: > > 0. The only higher-than-PDP-11 computers that can be allowed to run UNIX > are DEC VAXen. I oppose the idea of running UNIX on PeeCees and shit like > that. Not so, IMHO. The purist may run a vaxen in the manner of the Bugattis of old, but us garage monkeywrench types may be stuck with even a lowly PC thingie. Don't quite put the PC flavors down, since I can attest to their utility in poverty stricken research projects for at least the past 10 years, courtesy Big Blue and that hybrid PC unix of theirs (AIX 1.x). Also, the freebie BSD's are sufficiently close to the real thing, that most average users would not know the difference. Cat is cat is cat, no matter how it is coded (and they all look remarkably similar). > 1. I consider it the ultimate in blasphemy to attempt to create "UNIX > clones" that people dare to call "Unix" but don't really contain any code > written by God Ritchie, God Thompson, or God Kernighan. I never use any > "free Unices" like FreeBSD and NetBSD. Right now I use Ultrix and SunOS, > which are kosher in the above sense but binary-only for most people. The > latter part is why I want to move to 4.3BSD-*. Also my belief in True > licensed UNIX(R) is the reason I have joined PUPS, as it seems to be the > only remaining group dealing with such UNIX. Well, yes and no. I consider it a tribute to the likes of Thompson, Ritchie, Kernighan, Ossanna, and a string of others down the trees, that the wisdom of their reasoning and toiling has had fruition even in the lowly PC's. Why did the freebies catch on like they have? Because the folks wanted something like a BSD, and the corporate bean counters and lawyers missed their chance. As to which flavor to use, I use what I have that will run on whichever box I have on. I prefer a BSDish box, but even a V7 is fun, and with a viish terminal driver and troff, still runs with the best of the big dogs, and even AIX is usable if you get used to its quirks. But, for sure, the point of all this is to preserve the history, code, nuances, and whatever else can be maintained, unless I am sorely amiss of the PUPS goals. I only think it needs to include the castoff 32 bit machines, too, hence the need for a BUPS group, IMHO. > Sincerely, > Michael Sokolov With all due respect. R.D. Keys rdkeys at seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id EAA03980 for pups-liszt; Thu, 30 Jul 1998 04:02:13 +1000 (EST) Received: from seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu (seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu [152.1.88.4]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id EAA03968; Thu, 30 Jul 1998 04:02:04 +1000 (EST) Received: (from rdkeys at localhost) by seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA04109; Wed, 29 Jul 1998 13:57:25 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from rdkeys) From: "User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys" Message-Id: <199807291757.NAA04109 at seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> Subject: Re: PUPS and BUPS (burp!) thoughts (what have we started?) In-Reply-To: <199807291631.AA16185 at world.std.com> from Allison J Parent at "Jul 29, 98 12:31:06 pm" To: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 13:57:22 -0400 (EDT) Cc: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au, bups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL38 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk > Not an undesireable thing. May the best win... for the rest of us any > is better than zero. Well said, but perhaps we need to frame that with something like, ``all will win, even the least....'' > < 0. The only higher-than-PDP-11 computers that can be allowed to run U > < are DEC VAXen. I oppose the idea of running UNIX on PeeCees and shit lik > < that. > > That is also wrong, as Interdata 8/32, IBM System/370 and Honeywell 6000 > are recognized as ports by K&R in their docs! the latter three systems > while interesting are not general collectors fare as they tend to be a > bit large. Can anyone refresh my memory of what machines specifically were listed in the V7 and 32V and 2/3/4BSD docs? I would like to get that clear, for reference purposes. Also, what specific machines were ported out of these main sources by the odd vendors. The majority was pdp11ish, but about V7 time the 68000 and Z8000 and other oddities pop up. > < 1. I consider it the ultimate in blasphemy to attempt to create "UNI > < clones" that people dare to call "Unix" but don't really contain any cod > < written by God Ritchie, God Thompson, or God Kernighan. I never use any > < "free Unices" like FreeBSD and NetBSD. Right now I use Ultrix and SunOS > > It was God Bell Labs (nee WE) that K&R worked for that put the odious > license fees on unix, in 1980 it was a mere $24,000 for the sources which > were a must have. People started doing clones to break free of the > license and distributions that didn't contain sources. It made possible > to get on platforms that were unsupported/unsupportable without source > code or at least for the commercial versions at lower cost to the user. > Venix for Pro350 is such an example (it's v6 or v7 code!). I'm not > saying the clones are good or bad, only born of necessity. Of course > they couldn't contain and of said God code due to licenses. I would agree on the necessity. Back in '88 I went shopping for an office machine, and could find nothing under around 25 kilobucks. I opted out for a peanuts budget machine (PS/2 model 80 with AIX) at around 10K bucks and the silly thing is still whirring away as my remote tape dumper. Alas, it is a much maligned PC, but it functions nontheless, and IS a real unix. Alas, these days, its steam is a little underpowered trying to scrape the web, so it idles in the background. Technically, it is a 32 bit abandoned unix, and for hypotheticals, it ought to be something workable in a BUPS sort of archive, with proper Big Blue nodding. The same thing should occur for the RT. It would probably be a nightmare of paperwork between SCO and IBM and us, tho..... > Like all gods their feet are of clay. The gods were hacking away fine.... alas the beanyheads upstairs had their feet stuck, if I am reading my history correctly. > Since the goal is to preserve unix and unix like OSs there is no crime, > even if the varients are not direct decendents. So long as people > understand the lineage preservation should certainly should proceed. The goal is to save it if possible, BEFORE it becomes vaporware, for purely hobby/historical purposes, with the big player's graces and consents. If we don't dream a little and oil some squeeky wheels, it will never get done..... > Allison RDK Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA14668 for pups-liszt; Thu, 30 Jul 1998 16:18:07 +1000 (EST) Received: from forbin.killthewabbit.org (killthewabbit.org [208.192.43.132]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id QAA14663; Thu, 30 Jul 1998 16:17:49 +1000 (EST) Message-Id: <199807300606.XAA11564 at forbin.killthewabbit.org> From: "Ian King" To: "User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys" , "Michael Sokolov" Cc: , Subject: Re: PUPS and BUPS (burp!) thoughts..... Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 23:02:39 -0700 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1160 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from base64 to 8bit by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au id QAA14664 Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk I'm glad there are people and codebases that compete with Microsoft -- and I work for Microsoft. It keeps us on our toes. :-) I run NT 4.0 and Linux 2.0.30 side-by-side at home, on the selfsame network -- and all on Intel hardware. I am on this mailing list because I am gaining a PDP 11/34 as a new resident in my home, which will be networked together with the Intel hardware (so I don't have to run downstairs all the time -- the PDP is too large for my computer room upstairs). Why? Call it a sense of history.... Why shouldn't UNIX run on everything? The beauty of the UNIX idea -- which has been cloned and transported and transliterated and transmogrified a myriad times a myriad times -- is that it expresses a rich metaphor for computation, which allows us to make use of these metal monsters. I have the greatest respect for "true" UNIX and its parents and godparents. I also have a lot of respect for Linus Torvalds and the incredible piece of work he birthed -- a true UNIX version that makes excellent use of the PC architecture. The PC architecture has commoditized significant computing power in a manner that Digital could never have done (or at least, never did), and placed that into the hands of many people who would be otherwise financially barred from playing this game. IMHO it's specious to demonize a particular machine architecture and declare that UNIXes running on it are somehow illegitimate. Cheers -- Ian King NOTE: this is strictly my personal ramblings, and does not in any way represent the official position of the Microsoft Corporation. ---------- > From: User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys > To: Michael Sokolov > Cc: bups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au > Subject: Re: PUPS and BUPS (burp!) thoughts..... > Date: Wednesday, July 29, 1998 10:27 AM > > > "User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys" wrote: > > > It is obvious that none of the old toys are going to be competing with > > > the rush to NT and SCOish things. > > > > Excuse me, sir, but I have to make a point here. They _ARE_ competing! > > No excuses necessary. But, please relax a bit and don't let the blood > boil to much. All of us here, are interested in the preservation of the > beast. Granted many may run it for a living, me included, to some extent. > But, likewise most or many of us are the same folks that have a vaxen > or pdp-11 in the basement (I remember seeing a pix of one of our leader's > machines next to the kitchen fridge?). Clearly, the basement/kitchen toys > are not competing. They are purely hobby related. My dumpster risc box > won't ever compete again, but is fun to spin up a TeX and troff on. > > > My office is the largest room in the department, and it's filled with VAXen > > of all kinds. My goal is to get 4.3BSD-* running on all of them and operate > > this system in direct competition with other UNIX systems on our campus, > > which are all Pentiums or SPARCs. Since my system administration skills and > > friendliness to students surpass those of other campus UNIX systems' admins > > by many orders of binary magnitude, I plan to urge people to migrate to my > > VAXen this way. Yes, my plan is total world VAX domination! This is exactly > > why I want to modify Berkeley VAX UNIX to run on all VAX models from 11/780 > > to 10000. (An EXTREMELY daring and ambitious goal, needless to say.) > > Clearly yours are more mainstream related. > > Kudos for the sysadmin handholding towards the students. Mentoring, one > on one is the best way to handle many computer learning things. > > Although vaxen may dominate the world (or did at one time, according to > Henry Spencer's infamous ten commandments for C programmers), there are > many lesser breeds that I sense others of us partake of. Also, there > are insufficient numbers of remaining vaxen and pdp-11's for all of us > to have one in the home hobbyroom. Because of that, I would suggest > that maybe there is interest in the other lines of machines and their > related unices, even the 32bitters. > > > I have two strong and radical views: > > > > 0. The only higher-than-PDP-11 computers that can be allowed to run UNIX > > are DEC VAXen. I oppose the idea of running UNIX on PeeCees and shit like > > that. > > Not so, IMHO. The purist may run a vaxen in the manner of the Bugattis > of old, but us garage monkeywrench types may be stuck with even a lowly > PC thingie. Don't quite put the PC flavors down, since I can attest to > their utility in poverty stricken research projects for at least the past > 10 years, courtesy Big Blue and that hybrid PC unix of theirs (AIX 1.x). > Also, the freebie BSD's are sufficiently close to the real thing, that > most average users would not know the difference. Cat is cat is cat, > no matter how it is coded (and they all look remarkably similar). > > > 1. I consider it the ultimate in blasphemy to attempt to create "UNIX > > clones" that people dare to call "Unix" but don't really contain any code > > written by God Ritchie, God Thompson, or God Kernighan. I never use any > > "free Unices" like FreeBSD and NetBSD. Right now I use Ultrix and SunOS, > > which are kosher in the above sense but binary-only for most people. The > > latter part is why I want to move to 4.3BSD-*. Also my belief in True > > licensed UNIX(R) is the reason I have joined PUPS, as it seems to be the > > only remaining group dealing with such UNIX. > > Well, yes and no. > > I consider it a tribute to the likes of Thompson, Ritchie, Kernighan, > Ossanna, and a string of others down the trees, that the wisdom of their > reasoning and toiling has had fruition even in the lowly PC's. Why did > the freebies catch on like they have? Because the folks wanted something > like a BSD, and the corporate bean counters and lawyers missed their chance. > As to which flavor to use, I use what I have that will run on whichever > box I have on. I prefer a BSDish box, but even a V7 is fun, and with > a viish terminal driver and troff, still runs with the best of the big > dogs, and even AIX is usable if you get used to its quirks. > > But, for sure, the point of all this is to preserve the history, code, > nuances, and whatever else can be maintained, unless I am sorely amiss > of the PUPS goals. I only think it needs to include the castoff 32 > bit machines, too, hence the need for a BUPS group, IMHO. > > > Sincerely, > > Michael Sokolov > > With all due respect. > > R.D. Keys > rdkeys at seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA00214 for pups-liszt; Fri, 31 Jul 1998 11:22:06 +1000 (EST) Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA00201; Fri, 31 Jul 1998 11:21:49 +1000 (EST) Received: (from wkt at localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA08798; Fri, 31 Jul 1998 11:20:36 +1000 (EST) From: Warren Toomey Message-Id: <199807310120.LAA08798 at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: Re: OUPS (was: PUPS and BUPS (burp!) thoughts.....) To: grog at lemis.com (Greg Lehey) Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 11:20:35 +1000 (EST) Cc: rdkeys at seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu, wkt at cs.adfa.oz.au, pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au, bups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au In-Reply-To: <19980731094513.U7830 at freebie.lemis.com> from Greg Lehey at "Jul 31, 98 09:45:13 am" Reply-To: wkt at cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk In article by Greg Lehey: > Are we really so many disparate people that we need two lists? I'd > guess that most people would be on both lists. How about just a name > change, to "Old UNIX Preservation Society"? > > Greg I don't know, I thought that it would give people more flexibility, and shield people from stuff they didn't want to see. So lets ask: If you're on the PUPS list, do you want to see stuff about non PDP-11 Unixes? If you're on the BUPS list, do you want to see stuff about PDP-11 Unixes. Cheers all, Warren Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA00743 for pups-liszt; Fri, 31 Jul 1998 13:25:22 +1000 (EST) Received: from mgate.nwnexus.com (mgate.nwnexus.com [206.63.63.200]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA00738; Fri, 31 Jul 1998 13:25:15 +1000 (EST) Received: from halcyon.com (blv-lx106-ip44.nwnexus.net [206.63.41.244]) by mgate.nwnexus.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA07370; Thu, 30 Jul 1998 20:24:49 -0700 Message-ID: <35C138FB.A77E57E3 at halcyon.com> Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 20:24:43 -0700 From: "David C. Jenner" Reply-To: djenner at halcyon.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au CC: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: OUPS (was: PUPS and BUPS (burp!) thoughts.....) References: <199807310120.LAA08798 at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk I vote for one list. Leave it PUPS, and call it the Past/Prehistoric/Perpetual Unix Preservation Society or something like that. Or think up a "P" adjective that glorifies the olden Unix. Almost everything has been cross-posted up to this point, and I get two copies anyway! Dave Warren Toomey wrote: > > In article by Greg Lehey: > > Are we really so many disparate people that we need two lists? I'd > > guess that most people would be on both lists. How about just a name > > change, to "Old UNIX Preservation Society"? > > > > Greg > > I don't know, I thought that it would give people more flexibility, > and shield people from stuff they didn't want to see. So lets ask: > > If you're on the PUPS list, do you want to see stuff about non PDP-11 Unixes? > > If you're on the BUPS list, do you want to see stuff about PDP-11 Unixes. > > Cheers all, > > Warren Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA01084 for pups-liszt; Fri, 31 Jul 1998 15:32:13 +1000 (EST) Received: from harrier.Uznet.NET (harrier.ml.org [193.220.92.194]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA01078 for ; Fri, 31 Jul 1998 15:30:19 +1000 (EST) Received: (from stacy at localhost) by harrier.Uznet.NET (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA01933 for pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Fri, 31 Jul 1998 10:29:46 +0500 Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 10:29:46 +0500 From: Stacy Minkin Message-Id: <199807310529.KAA01933 at harrier.Uznet.NET> To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Let'em be one! Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk I also vote for one list. Stacy. Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA01162 for pups-liszt; Fri, 31 Jul 1998 15:53:58 +1000 (EST) Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA01157 for ; Fri, 31 Jul 1998 15:53:54 +1000 (EST) Received: (from wkt at localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id PAA09629 for pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Fri, 31 Jul 1998 15:54:01 +1000 (EST) From: Warren Toomey Message-Id: <199807310554.PAA09629 at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: Re: Let'em be one! Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 15:54:00 +1000 (EST) Cc: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au In-Reply-To: <199807310529.KAA01933 at harrier.Uznet.NET> from Stacy Minkin at "Jul 31, 98 10:29:46 am" Reply-To: wkt at cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk In article by Stacy Minkin: > > I also vote for one list [about old UNIX]. > Stacy. Looks like most people would like a common list, so I have merged the two lists. The PUPS list is now for Prehistoric UNIX :-) I'll keep the PUPS web page about PDP-11 stuff for now, though. The bups at minnie list is gone, and all mail for the list should now go to pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au. What next? Warren Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA02057 for pups-liszt; Fri, 31 Jul 1998 20:08:38 +1000 (EST) Received: from blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu (blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu [129.22.50.4]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id UAA02052; Fri, 31 Jul 1998 20:08:31 +1000 (EST) Received: by blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu (5.67/MS-InetSite-1.1) id AA16586; Fri, 31 Jul 98 06:09:02 -0400 Date: Fri, 31 Jul 98 06:09:02 -0400 From: msokolov@blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu (Michael Sokolov) Message-Id: <9807311009.AA16586 at blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu> To: bups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au, pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: OUPS (was: PUPS and BUPS (burp!) thoughts.....) Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk Warren Toomey wrote: > I don't know, I thought that it would give people more flexibility, > and shield people from stuff they didn't want to see. So lets ask: > > If you're on the PUPS list, do you want to see stuff about non PDP-11 Unixes? Yes! > If you're on the BUPS list, do you want to see stuff about PDP-11 Unixes. Yes! Personally, I think it's a bad idea to have two separate societies/lists. After all, in many case PDP-11 UNIX and VAX UNIX are the same code compiled for different CPUs, and these lists are not about binary-only OSes, are they? If it's all fundamentally the same code, it should be on one list, regardless of what CPUs people want to compile it for. I'm also a little troubled by the word "preservation". This word suggests the group acknowledges that these systems are "old" or "historical". 4.3BSD is being _ACTIVELY WORKED ON_ (by me) as I type, and I have been under the impression that 2.11BSD is also being actively worked on by Steven M. Schults. Sure, these systems WILL be "old" or "historical" if we just sit and "preserve" them, but IMHO this is NOT what we should do. We should look and act and behave AS IF these systems were brand new. I.e, run them in production on the net competing with Pentiums and SPARCs, and actually MAKE thse systems new by doing active development work on the sources just like the dev teams for "new" OSes do. If we can't build a time machine, let's shut all doors and windows and create a 1980s world inside! So, with these ideas in mind, why not call ourselves TUUDS, True UNIX User and Developer Society? Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA02203 for pups-liszt; Fri, 31 Jul 1998 21:13:34 +1000 (EST) Received: from harrier.Uznet.NET (harrier.ml.org [193.220.92.194]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA02197 for ; Fri, 31 Jul 1998 21:13:01 +1000 (EST) Received: (from stacy at localhost) by harrier.Uznet.NET (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA03207 for pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Fri, 31 Jul 1998 16:12:16 +0500 Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 16:12:16 +0500 From: Stacy Minkin Message-Id: <199807311112.QAA03207 at harrier.Uznet.NET> To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Thoughts... Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk Hi All! > From: msokolov at blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu (Michael Sokolov) >I'm also a little troubled by the word "preservation". This word suggests the >group acknowledges that these systems are "old" or "historical". 4.3BSD is >being _ACTIVELY WORKED ON_ (by me) as I type, and I have been under the >impression that 2.11BSD is also being actively worked on by Steven M. Schults. >Sure, these systems WILL be "old" or "historical" if we just sit and "preserve" >them, but IMHO this is NOT what we should do. We should look and act and behave >AS IF these systems were brand new. I.e, run them in production on the net >competing with Pentiums and SPARCs, and actually MAKE thse systems new by doing >active development work on the sources just like the dev teams for "new" OSes >do. If we can't build a time machine, let's shut all doors and windows and >create a 1980s world inside! Absolutely right! The only problem with it that old CPUs are seems to be slowly vaporizing... I spent about ten years searching until I finally got original Digital PDP-11 here in Uzbekistan (xUSSR) ! And I succeeded only because I started working for Digital here. Stacy. Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA02334 for pups-liszt; Fri, 31 Jul 1998 21:58:54 +1000 (EST) Received: from aiai.ed.ac.uk (eigg.aiai.ed.ac.uk [129.215.41.7]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA02329; Fri, 31 Jul 1998 21:58:48 +1000 (EST) Received: from dubh.aiai.ed.ac.uk (dubh.aiai.ed.ac.uk [129.215.105.17]) by aiai.ed.ac.uk (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA16048; Fri, 31 Jul 1998 12:54:50 +0100 (BST) Received: (tfb at localhost) by dubh.aiai.ed.ac.uk (8.6.13/8.6.12) id MAA03301; Fri, 31 Jul 1998 12:54:50 +0100 Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 12:54:50 +0100 Message-Id: <199807311154.MAA03301 at dubh.aiai.ed.ac.uk> From: Tim Bradshaw MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: wkt at cs.adfa.oz.au Cc: grog at lemis.com (Greg Lehey), rdkeys at seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu, pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au, bups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: OUPS (was: PUPS and BUPS (burp!) thoughts.....) In-Reply-To: <199807310120.LAA08798 at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> References: <19980731094513.U7830 at freebie.lemis.com> <199807310120.LAA08798 at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> X-Mailer: VM 6.32 under 19.14 XEmacs Lucid Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk > If you're on the PUPS list, do you want to see stuff about non PDP-11 Unixes? > If you're on the BUPS list, do you want to see stuff about PDP-11 Unixes. I'm on both, I'm interested in stuff about both. I would have thought that the overlap is fairly large. --tim Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA02319 for pups-liszt; Fri, 31 Jul 1998 21:56:18 +1000 (EST) Received: from aiai.ed.ac.uk (eigg.aiai.ed.ac.uk [129.215.41.7]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA02314; Fri, 31 Jul 1998 21:55:58 +1000 (EST) Received: from dubh.aiai.ed.ac.uk (dubh.aiai.ed.ac.uk [129.215.105.17]) by aiai.ed.ac.uk (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA16054; Fri, 31 Jul 1998 12:55:33 +0100 (BST) Received: (tfb at localhost) by dubh.aiai.ed.ac.uk (8.6.13/8.6.12) id MAA03303; Fri, 31 Jul 1998 12:55:32 +0100 Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 12:55:32 +0100 Message-Id: <199807311155.MAA03303 at dubh.aiai.ed.ac.uk> From: Tim Bradshaw MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: djenner at halcyon.com Cc: bups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au, pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: OUPS (was: PUPS and BUPS (burp!) thoughts.....) In-Reply-To: <35C138FB.A77E57E3 at halcyon.com> References: <199807310120.LAA08798 at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> <35C138FB.A77E57E3 at halcyon.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.32 under 19.14 XEmacs Lucid Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk * David C Jenner wrote: > I vote for one list. Leave it PUPS, and call it the > Past/Prehistoric/Perpetual Unix Preservation Society > or something like that. Or think up a "P" adjective > that glorifies the olden Unix. Proper Unix Preservation Society! Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA02386 for pups-liszt; Fri, 31 Jul 1998 22:19:42 +1000 (EST) Received: from blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu (blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu [129.22.50.4]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id WAA02381 for ; Fri, 31 Jul 1998 22:19:36 +1000 (EST) Received: by blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu (5.67/MS-InetSite-1.1) id AA16681; Fri, 31 Jul 98 08:20:09 -0400 Date: Fri, 31 Jul 98 08:20:09 -0400 From: msokolov@blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu (Michael Sokolov) Message-Id: <9807311220.AA16681 at blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu> To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: Thoughts... Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk Stacy Minkin wrote: > Absolutely right! The only problem with it that old CPUs are > seems to be slowly vaporizing... Then start MAKING them! Our great nation of Workers and Peasants has the best military technology in the world! Let's show those bloodsucking capitalists that we can make PDP-11s and VAXen better than they ever could! Sincerely, Michael Sokolov Phone: 216-368-6888 (Office) 440-449-0299 (Home) 216-217-2579 (Cellular) ARPA Internet SMTP mail: msokolov at blackwidow.CWRU.Edu Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA02441 for pups-liszt; Fri, 31 Jul 1998 22:25:32 +1000 (EST) Received: from blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu (blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu [129.22.50.4]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id WAA02435 for ; Fri, 31 Jul 1998 22:25:26 +1000 (EST) Received: by blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu (5.67/MS-InetSite-1.1) id AA16689; Fri, 31 Jul 98 08:25:59 -0400 Date: Fri, 31 Jul 98 08:25:59 -0400 From: msokolov@blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu (Michael Sokolov) Message-Id: <9807311225.AA16689 at blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu> To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: OUPS (was: PUPS and BUPS (burp!) thoughts.....) Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk Tim Bradshaw wrote: > Proper Unix Preservation Society! Yes! I vote for this! Sincerely, Michael Sokolov Phone: 216-368-6888 (Office) 440-449-0299 (Home) 216-217-2579 (Cellular) ARPA Internet SMTP mail: msokolov at blackwidow.CWRU.Edu Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA02735 for pups-liszt; Fri, 31 Jul 1998 23:45:09 +1000 (EST) Received: from europe.std.com (europe.std.com [199.172.62.20]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA02730 for ; Fri, 31 Jul 1998 23:45:02 +1000 (EST) Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.7.6/BZS-8-1.0) id JAA25745; Fri, 31 Jul 1998 09:44:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: by world.std.com (TheWorld/Spike-2.0) id AA23930; Fri, 31 Jul 1998 09:44:51 -0400 Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 09:44:51 -0400 From: allisonp@world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Message-Id: <199807311344.AA23930 at world.std.com> To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: Thoughts... Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk < Then start MAKING them! Our great nation of Workers and Peasants has the < military technology in the world! Let's show those bloodsucking capitali < that we can make PDP-11s and VAXen better than they ever could! They never stopped making them. Mentec has some really fast 11s. Mike, take a prozac and chill. It's all that capitalism that is making all of those old PDP-11s and such available in the first place. This place is for unix and it's heirs and relations not political ranting. We can argue better, first, cleanest, purity after we have captured the code and preserved it from loss. Allison Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA03203 for pups-liszt; Sat, 1 Aug 1998 02:28:37 +1000 (EST) Received: from smtp1.erols.com (smtp1.erols.com [207.172.3.234]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id CAA03197 for ; Sat, 1 Aug 1998 02:28:30 +1000 (EST) Received: from erols.com (207-172-243-104.s41.as4.rkv.erols.com [207.172.243.104]) by smtp1.erols.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA04398; Fri, 31 Jul 1998 12:28:08 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <35C1EF3D.6E05D8C7 at erols.com> Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 12:22:23 -0400 From: shsrms Reply-To: shsrms at ero_nospam_ls.com Organization: Holistic Horizons/Waverider Research X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au CC: msokolov at blackwidow.soml.cwru.edu, port-vax at netbsd.org Subject: Re: Thoughts... References: <9807311220.AA16681 at blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk Fellow PUPS Listers, could someone with the proper education please look at Soko's postings here and in Netbsd vax list and tell me if soko is a real person or if he is an agitation program done by the psychology department? Thanks bob Michael Sokolov wrote: > > Stacy Minkin wrote: > > Absolutely right! The only problem with it that old CPUs are > > seems to be slowly vaporizing... > > Then start MAKING them! Our great nation of Workers and Peasants has the best > military technology in the world! Let's show those bloodsucking capitalists > that we can make PDP-11s and VAXen better than they ever could! > > Sincerely, > Michael Sokolov > Phone: 216-368-6888 (Office) 440-449-0299 (Home) 216-217-2579 (Cellular) > ARPA Internet SMTP mail: msokolov at blackwidow.CWRU.Edu -- real address is shsrms at erols dot com The Herbal Gypsy and the Tinker. Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA03322 for pups-liszt; Sat, 1 Aug 1998 02:48:41 +1000 (EST) Received: from skatter.USask.Ca (skatter.usask.ca [128.233.14.1]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id CAA03317; Sat, 1 Aug 1998 02:48:35 +1000 (EST) Received: from hydrus.USask.Ca (hydrus.usask.ca [128.233.14.27]) by skatter.USask.Ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA04498; Fri, 31 Jul 1998 10:47:09 -0600 (CST) From: Neil Johnson Received: (from neil at localhost) by hydrus.USask.Ca (8.7.2/8.7.2) id KAA14549; Fri, 31 Jul 1998 10:47:07 -0600 (CST) Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 10:47:07 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199807311647.KAA14549 at hydrus.USask.Ca> To: grog at lemis.com, wkt at cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: OUPS (was: PUPS and BUPS (burp!) thoughts.....) Cc: bups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au, pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au, rdkeys at seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk I agree with the idea of one list, but prefer the original PDP11 Unix Preservation Society. My interest is mainly PDP11 and Unix, which the name suggests. Linked together the names also provide an indication of the historical nature of the systems being used. I think anyone with an interest in only one of the two aspects should be welcome in the group, and I am interested in their questions or comments about their system. I also suspect that most participants in the mailing list are using PDP11 computers. If I didn't have an 11, but was still using a Model 16 from Radio Shack I personally would not feel unwelcome in this group with the original name retained. If other people do feel the PDP11 part of the name excludes them perhaps a name change would be appropriate. Neil Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id DAA03502 for pups-liszt; Sat, 1 Aug 1998 03:40:04 +1000 (EST) Received: from blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu (blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu [129.22.50.4]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id DAA03494 for ; Sat, 1 Aug 1998 03:39:57 +1000 (EST) Received: by blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu (5.67/MS-InetSite-1.1) id AA16914; Fri, 31 Jul 98 13:40:22 -0400 Date: Fri, 31 Jul 98 13:40:22 -0400 From: msokolov@blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu (Michael Sokolov) Message-Id: <9807311740.AA16914 at blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu> To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: OUPS (was: PUPS and BUPS (burp!) thoughts.....) Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk Neil Johnson wrote: > I also suspect that most participants in the mailing list are > using PDP11 computers. My office is full of VAXen, but I don't envision a PDP-11 coming in any time soon. > If > other people do feel the PDP11 part of the name excludes them > perhaps a name change would be appropriate. Yes. Keep in mind that starting with 32V and 3BSD all cool and exciting development of True UNIX we're talking about here has been on VAXen, NOT on PDP-11s. Also almost all versions of VAX UNIX (I feel that 4.2BSD+ qualifies as "almost all") are networking, while PDP-11 UNIX (OK, with the exception of 2.11BSD) is not. You can't seriously expect a UNIXed PDP-11 do what people would normally expect a UNIX box to do. You CAN do this with a VAX (I'm the living proof). So, that "PDP-11" stuck in there is very insulting, implicitly suggesting that anyone who actually runs UNIX(R) in full production for thousands of users, rather than just "preserves" it, is an outcast. The same for the word "Preservation". Why not call it Proper UNIX Patriot Society? Sincerely, Michael Sokolov Phone: 216-368-6888 (Office) 440-449-0299 (Home) 216-217-2579 (Cellular) ARPA Internet SMTP mail: msokolov at blackwidow.CWRU.Edu Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA04638 for pups-liszt; Sat, 1 Aug 1998 08:58:27 +1000 (EST) Received: from seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu (seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu [152.1.88.4]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA04633; Sat, 1 Aug 1998 08:58:19 +1000 (EST) Received: (from rdkeys at localhost) by seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA09506; Fri, 31 Jul 1998 18:53:34 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from rdkeys) From: "User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys" Message-Id: <199807312253.SAA09506 at seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> Subject: Re: OUPS (was: PUPS and BUPS (burp!) thoughts.....) In-Reply-To: <19980731094513.U7830 at freebie.lemis.com> from Greg Lehey at "Jul 31, 98 09:45:13 am" To: grog at lemis.com (Greg Lehey) Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 18:53:31 -0400 (EDT) Cc: wkt at cs.adfa.oz.au, pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au, bups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL38 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk > On Wednesday, 29 July 1998 at 11:03:47 -0400, User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys wrote: > >> BUPS stands for BIG UNIX Preservation Society. I'm sure they will come > >> up with a better name :-) > > > > PUPS, BUPS, burp! Sounds fine! > > Are we really so many disparate people that we need two lists? I'd > guess that most people would be on both lists. How about just a name > change, to "Old UNIX Preservation Society"? > > Greg No, and my original thought was to fold it all under PUPS, but, I sense that Warren was not wanting to do that. For heaven's sakes, let us roll with the flow, and do what is best for all aboard. If that is one list, fine.... or two lists, fine. It was just a thought..... I would just like to see other orphan unices included in the philosophy behind PUPS, before they go vaporware, forever. How it gets there is unimportant, and for sure we don't want any politics or bent feelers involved. It is more important that we get it done, however it happens to get there. Bob Keys Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA04719 for pups-liszt; Sat, 1 Aug 1998 09:35:16 +1000 (EST) Received: from seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu (seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu [152.1.88.4]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA04714 for ; Sat, 1 Aug 1998 09:35:09 +1000 (EST) Received: (from rdkeys at localhost) by seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA09661; Fri, 31 Jul 1998 19:30:37 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from rdkeys) From: "User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys" Message-Id: <199807312330.TAA09661 at seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> Subject: Thoughts on vaxen.... In-Reply-To: <9807311740.AA16914 at blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu> from Michael Sokolov at "Jul 31, 98 01:40:22 pm" To: msokolov at blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu (Michael Sokolov) Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 19:30:35 -0400 (EDT) Cc: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL38 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk > Neil Johnson wrote: > My office is full of VAXen, but I don't envision a PDP-11 coming in any time > soon. For the sake of discussion..... What should one look for in a VAX? Say I was walking along through our state surplus agency (and I do that regularly these days, since all kinds of neato unicy goodies are popping up from a lot of folks going to NT toys), what kind of parts and pieces would I need to put together a minimal VAX, suited to some flavor of homegrown 32V/3BSD/4BSD, etc. Some of us would not really know one if it fell over on us.... like me. Yet, IFF I knew enough of what to look out for, mebbie one might appear. Everyone around here wants plain PC parts and machines in surplus, so the rest usually gets dumpster chucked or hauled off for scrap by the pallet load. I just missed 3 relay racks full of such things as 9 track tape drives, and some sort of pdpish lookalike things. So, what parts by name and number should I keep an eye out for, so that enough of something might be cobbled together to work? I have lots of experiences on PS/2, RT, and x86 unix boxes, but am woefully short on pdp-11 and VAXen experiences. I played with a pdp-11 many years ago, but I did not know much then. I am probably not the only one..... As ol' number 5 was want to say......``need input.... need input'' Thanks Bob Keys Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA06196 for pups-liszt; Sat, 1 Aug 1998 21:13:02 +1000 (EST) Received: from post.mail.demon.net (post-11.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.40]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id VAA06191; Sat, 1 Aug 1998 21:12:53 +1000 (EST) Received: from (falstaf.demon.co.uk) [158.152.152.109] by post.mail.demon.net with smtp (Exim 1.82 #2) id 0z2Zai-0000tv-00; Sat, 1 Aug 1998 11:12:48 +0000 Message-ID: Date: Sat, 1 Aug 1998 12:11:13 +0100 To: wkt at cs.adfa.oz.au Cc: Greg Lehey , rdkeys at seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu, pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au, bups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au From: Robin Birch Subject: Re: OUPS (was: PUPS and BUPS (burp!) thoughts.....) In-Reply-To: <199807310120.LAA08798 at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Turnpike (32) Version 3.05 Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk In message <199807310120.LAA08798 at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>, Warren Toomey writes >In article by Greg Lehey: >> Are we really so many disparate people that we need two lists? I'd >> guess that most people would be on both lists. How about just a name >> change, to "Old UNIX Preservation Society"? >> >> Greg > >I don't know, I thought that it would give people more flexibility, >and shield people from stuff they didn't want to see. So lets ask: > >If you're on the PUPS list, do you want to see stuff about non PDP-11 Unixes? > Yes please. Two reasons. The first is that I have a general interest as I guess most of us have. The second is that I am interested in porting stuff onto 2.11 and if something comes up on the other unixes it may have an app on a pdp one >If you're on the BUPS list, do you want to see stuff about PDP-11 Unixes. > >Cheers all, > > Warren ____________________________________________________________________ Robin Birch robin at falstaf.demon.co.uk M1ASU/2E0ARJ Old computers and radios always welcome Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA08367 for pups-liszt; Sun, 2 Aug 1998 12:51:34 +1000 (EST) Received: from blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu (blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu [129.22.50.4]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id MAA08362 for ; Sun, 2 Aug 1998 12:51:27 +1000 (EST) Received: by blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu (5.67/MS-InetSite-1.1) id AA17801; Sat, 1 Aug 98 22:52:00 -0400 Date: Sat, 1 Aug 98 22:52:00 -0400 From: msokolov@blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu (Michael Sokolov) Message-Id: <9808020252.AA17801 at blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu> To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: Thoughts on vaxen.... Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk "User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys" wrote: > What should one look for in a VAX? > > Say I was walking along through our state surplus agency (and I do that > regularly these days, since all kinds of neato unicy goodies are popping > up from a lot of folks going to NT toys), what kind of parts and pieces > would I need to put together a minimal VAX, suited to some flavor of > homegrown 32V/3BSD/4BSD, etc. > [...] > So, what parts by name and number should I keep an eye out for, so > that enough of something might be cobbled together to work? Basically, you need a box that says "VAX" on it. :-) Now, there are all kinds of different VAXen. If you want one that's capable of running something other than VMS, you have to be really careful. 32V, 3BSD, and 4.0BSD run on the original VAX-11/780 ONLY. There is a VERY low probability of you (or me) ever finding one. 4.1BSD and 4.2BSD extend this to 11/750 and 11/730, respectively, but these are still very big and scarce beasts. If you are a REAL VAX patriot (one for whom VAXen are the ONLY computers), none of this should matter to you anyway, since versions of UNIX before 4.3BSD are unfit for production use on ARPA Internet (the ones before 4.2BSD lack any networking whatsoever, and 4.2BSD lacks DNS). If your OS of choice is 4.3BSD, 4.3BSD-Tahoe, or 4.3BSD-Reno, you are in a much better shape. All of them have kernel support for MicroVAX II, and Reno (and possibly Tahoe) has support for MicroVAX III. It's still very rudimentary, though. I personally haven't been able to get it booted yet! Seeing how much work remains to be done to get Berkeley UNIX running on MicroVAXen, I have decided to take a crack at it myself. I am actively working on extending the VAX hardware support in 4.3BSD to MicroVAXen and everything else not currently supported. My goal is to support everything from 11/780 to 10000. Total world VAX domination! This is very long-term, though, and you probably want something sooner. When I was faced with a pressing need to get one of my VAXen up and running in May, my solution was (and still is) to run Ultrix. True, not having the sources is VERY frustrating, and some DECisms like subsets, setld, BIND/Hesiod, etc. really piss me off, but presently this is the closest you can get to True VAX UNIX(R) that runs on something you or I can get our hands on. (A note for those who subscribe both to this list and to port-vax at netbsd.org. PLEASE don't advertise your freebie toy here. Fortunately, this list is for LICENSED UNIX(R).) If you want to assemble your VAX from parts, first realize that some of them (BabyVAXen in my terminology) consist of a single system board. On the other end of the spectrum there are huge beasts. Although they do consist of a myriad of boards, they are so specialized that you are very unlikely to ever find a board for one laying separately. The only VAXen that one can realistically build from parts are Q-bus ones. To build one, you need a Q- bus enclosure with a Q22-bus backplane, a Q-bus VAX CPU (KA6xx), and, unless your CPU has on-board Ethernet and DSSI, Q-bus disk and tape controllers and a Q-bus Ethernet interface (DEQNA or DELQA). Of course, you also need the disk and tape drives themselves. Good luck! Sincerely, Michael Sokolov Phone: 216-368-6888 (Office) 440-449-0299 (Home) 216-217-2579 (Cellular) ARPA Internet SMTP mail: msokolov at blackwidow.CWRU.Edu Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA09408 for pups-liszt; Sun, 2 Aug 1998 21:18:19 +1000 (EST) Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA09403 for ; Sun, 2 Aug 1998 21:18:14 +1000 (EST) Received: (from wkt at localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id VAA11148 for pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Sun, 2 Aug 1998 21:18:34 +1000 (EST) From: Warren Toomey Message-Id: <199808021118.VAA11148 at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: The Unix Society To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation) Date: Sun, 2 Aug 1998 21:18:34 +1000 (EST) Reply-To: wkt at cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk Hmm. Looks like we need a larger umbrella group which caters for the preservation, use and development of all Unix varieties past and present. I nominate the name The Unix Society Such a society could have chapters which focus on particular things like Vax Unixes, PDP-11 Unixes etc., but share common high-level goals. While I disagree with Michael's idea of total world domination by Vaxen :-), I believe such a society will be composed of a multitude of different beliefs, ideas, sub-goals and drives. So please bear this in mind when mailing to the mailing list!!! My main sub-goal is to provide a home for the PDP-11 stuff. I don't yet have the disk space for all the other Unix platforms. Mail yesterday from Kirk McKusick says that the 4-CD BSD set should be ready within a matter of days. Comments on the suggestion of `The Unix Society' as a name? I'm avoiding using UNIX as it's a trademark, and it's an adjective. Warren Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA10218 for pups-liszt; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 01:42:36 +1000 (EST) Received: from aiai.ed.ac.uk (eigg.aiai.ed.ac.uk [129.215.41.7]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA10212 for ; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 01:42:28 +1000 (EST) Received: from dubh.aiai.ed.ac.uk (dubh.aiai.ed.ac.uk [129.215.105.17]) by aiai.ed.ac.uk (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA24282; Sun, 2 Aug 1998 16:42:15 +0100 (BST) Received: (tfb at localhost) by dubh.aiai.ed.ac.uk (8.6.13/8.6.12) id QAA06412; Sun, 2 Aug 1998 16:42:14 +0100 Date: Sun, 2 Aug 1998 16:42:14 +0100 Message-Id: <199808021542.QAA06412 at dubh.aiai.ed.ac.uk> From: Tim Bradshaw MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: "User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys" Cc: msokolov at blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu (Michael Sokolov), pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: Thoughts on vaxen.... In-Reply-To: <199807312330.TAA09661 at seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> References: <9807311740.AA16914 at blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu> <199807312330.TAA09661 at seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> X-Mailer: VM 6.32 under 19.14 XEmacs Lucid Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk * User Rdkeys Robert D Keys wrote: > What should one look for in a VAX? At least over here, the vax that `everyone' had was an 11/750, which is one reasonably-sized-but-very-heavy cabinet, with the CPU &c, and usually tape & disk in one or more other boxes. These things run 4.2 & 4.3 (and earlier I'm sure), and are a bit more tractable than the 11/780 (but slower). I'd guess that these things should be still available in large numbers, but maybe they've all been scrapped by now. There are many faster & smaller ones, but I always figured that the 750 & 780 were the most proper vaxen... --tim Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA11665 for pups-liszt; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 09:26:10 +1000 (EST) Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA11658 for ; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 09:26:01 +1000 (EST) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) with ESMTP id IAA11512; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 08:55:54 +0930 (CST) Received: (from grog at localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) id IAA24983; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 08:55:53 +0930 (CST) Message-ID: <19980803085553.H21892 at freebie.lemis.com> Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 08:55:53 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: wkt at cs.adfa.oz.au, PDP Unix Preservation Subject: Re: The Unix Society References: <199808021118.VAA11148 at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: <199808021118.VAA11148 at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>; from Warren Toomey on Sun, Aug 02, 1998 at 09:18:34PM +1000 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk On Sunday, 2 August 1998 at 21:18:34 +1000, Warren Toomey wrote: > Hmm. Looks like we need a larger umbrella group which caters for the > preservation, use and development of all Unix varieties past and present. > I nominate the name The Unix Society > > Such a society could have chapters which focus on particular things like > Vax Unixes, PDP-11 Unixes etc., but share common high-level goals. > > While I disagree with Michael's idea of total world domination by Vaxen :-), > I believe such a society will be composed of a multitude of different beliefs, > ideas, sub-goals and drives. So please bear this in mind when mailing to the > mailing list!!! > > My main sub-goal is to provide a home for the PDP-11 stuff. I don't yet > have the disk space for all the other Unix platforms. Mail yesterday from > Kirk McKusick says that the 4-CD BSD set should be ready within a matter of > days. > > Comments on the suggestion of `The Unix Society' as a name? I'm avoiding > using UNIX as it's a trademark, and it's an adjective. I don't see the difference in case between UNIX and Unix as significant in defining what part of speech it means, and we've already discovered that lawyers prefer UNIX, but will accept Unix if they want to make a case about violating the conditions of use of the name. I find the spelling "Unix" looks like the kind of mistake that people make when they're not aware of these niceties, so I'd prefer not to use it. More generally, though, there's nothing in the name that suggests anything to do with the history of the system. For all it says to the outside world, it's a new competitor to USENIX. OK, PUPS may be wearing thin, and I wasn't really serious with OUPS (I tried, unsuccesfully, to find an expansion for OOPS), but I think we need to look a little further if we want to change the name. Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers finger grog at lemis.com for PGP public key Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA11690 for pups-liszt; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 09:34:56 +1000 (EST) Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA11685 for ; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 09:34:53 +1000 (EST) Received: (from wkt at localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA12929 for pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 09:35:17 +1000 (EST) From: Warren Toomey Message-Id: <199808022335.JAA12929 at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: Re: The Unix Society To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation) Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 09:35:17 +1000 (EST) In-Reply-To: <19980803085553.H21892 at freebie.lemis.com> from Greg Lehey at "Aug 3, 98 08:55:53 am" Reply-To: wkt at cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk In article by Greg Lehey: > > Hmm. Looks like we need a larger umbrella group which caters for the > > preservation, use and development of all Unix varieties past and present. > > I nominate the name The Unix Society ... > > Comments on the suggestion of `The Unix Society' as a name? I'm avoiding > > using UNIX as it's a trademark, and it's an adjective. > > I find the spelling "Unix" looks like the kind of mistake that > people make when they're not aware of these niceties, so I'd prefer > not to use it. > > More generally, though, there's nothing in the name that suggests > anything to do with the history of the system. For all it says to the > outside world, it's a new competitor to USENIX. Hmm, I don't like the all-caps UNIX, looks ugly. This is probably a taste thing. I wanted to avoid the word `preservation', as people like Steven, Michael and others are still maintaining, using and developing these systems. We need a sub-committee to come up with a new name :-) My next suggestion is /The UNIX Heritage Society/i Warren Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA11772 for pups-liszt; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 09:55:12 +1000 (EST) Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA11767 for ; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 09:55:07 +1000 (EST) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) with ESMTP id JAA11585; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 09:24:53 +0930 (CST) Received: (from grog at localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) id JAA25063; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 09:24:52 +0930 (CST) Message-ID: <19980803092452.N21892 at freebie.lemis.com> Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 09:24:52 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: wkt at cs.adfa.oz.au, PDP Unix Preservation Subject: Re: The Unix Society References: <19980803085553.H21892 at freebie.lemis.com> <199808022335.JAA12929 at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: <199808022335.JAA12929 at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>; from Warren Toomey on Mon, Aug 03, 1998 at 09:35:17AM +1000 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk On Monday, 3 August 1998 at 9:35:17 +1000, Warren Toomey wrote: > In article by Greg Lehey: >>> Hmm. Looks like we need a larger umbrella group which caters for the >>> preservation, use and development of all Unix varieties past and present. >>> I nominate the name The Unix Society ... >>> Comments on the suggestion of `The Unix Society' as a name? I'm avoiding >>> using UNIX as it's a trademark, and it's an adjective. >> >> I find the spelling "Unix" looks like the kind of mistake that >> people make when they're not aware of these niceties, so I'd prefer >> not to use it. >> >> More generally, though, there's nothing in the name that suggests >> anything to do with the history of the system. For all it says to the >> outside world, it's a new competitor to USENIX. > > Hmm, I don't like the all-caps UNIX, looks ugly. This is probably a taste > thing. I wanted to avoid the word `preservation', as people like Steven, > Michael and others are still maintaining, using and developing these systems. > > We need a sub-committee to come up with a new name :-) My next suggestion is > /The UNIX Heritage Society/i Sounds a lot better. Time for some other comments, when the rest of the world wakes up. Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers finger grog at lemis.com for PGP public key Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA11922 for pups-liszt; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 10:52:22 +1000 (EST) Received: from blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu (blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu [129.22.50.4]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id KAA11917 for ; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 10:52:10 +1000 (EST) Received: by blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu (5.67/MS-InetSite-1.1) id AA18331; Sun, 2 Aug 98 20:52:42 -0400 Date: Sun, 2 Aug 98 20:52:42 -0400 From: msokolov@blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu (Michael Sokolov) Message-Id: <9808030052.AA18331 at blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu> To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: The Unix Society Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk Warren Toomey wrote: > While I disagree with Michael's idea of total world domination by Vaxen > :-), I believe such a society will be composed of a multitude of > different beliefs, ideas, sub-goals and drives. So please bear this in > mind when mailing to the mailing list!!! Oh, I'm not saying that VAXen should dominate the mailing list or the society, I'm simply saying that my project is to turn them from "retrocomputing" into a fully competitive UNIX platform. > My main sub-goal is to provide a home for the PDP-11 stuff. I don't yet > have the disk space for all the other Unix platforms. Keep in mind, though, that the UNIX(R) mainstream is PDP-11 _AND_ VAX. > Hmm. Looks like we need a larger umbrella group which caters for the > preservation, use and development of all Unix varieties past and present. > I nominate the name The Unix Society and > Comments on the suggestion of `The Unix Society' as a name? I'm avoiding > using UNIX as it's a trademark, and it's an adjective. I personally think it's a very bad idea to extend the society to cover freebies. Let's keep it limited to software that requires an SCO or equivalent license. Why? Because otherwise it loses its identity. You can't cover all UNIX and "Unix" in the world. Huge organizations like USENIX already exist for this purpose. I believe the purpose of the society should be to provide a home for the homeless. Here is what I mean by that. People using "free Unices" already have scores of mailing lists and newsgroups available to them. The only ones who are always left out are the poor patriots of True Licensed UNIX(R). So far PUPS has been the only possible home for them. Why not have a Proper UNIX(R) Patriot Society which will do the same thing PUPS does now (provide a central clearinghouse for all licensed UNIX(R), keep the central database of SCO license holders, discuss licensing issues), but without restricting it to PDP-11s or to mere preservation? I don't think we need a huge society with chapters and subchapters to cover every possible use of every possible OS. People who want to use a particular OS in a particular way should have their own mailing lists to discuss really specific issues like hardware, etc. That's what I will do for 4.3BSD-Quasijarus when it actually sees the light of day. (For now it has a closed consortium. My experience has been that in such early stages of development keeping discussions on a public list leads to nothing except accusations of "vaporware" and flame wars.) PUPS should be a central clearinghouse for licensed UNIX(R), nothing more. Its scope should be exactly equal to the scope of the SCO license. Just my two bits. Sincerely, Michael Sokolov Phone: 216-368-6888 (Office) 440-449-0299 (Home) 216-217-2579 (Cellular) ARPA Internet SMTP mail: msokolov at blackwidow.CWRU.Edu Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA12041 for pups-liszt; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 11:30:19 +1000 (EST) Received: from mgate.nwnexus.com (mgate.nwnexus.com [206.63.63.200]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA12036 for ; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 11:30:13 +1000 (EST) Received: from halcyon.com (blv-lx103-ip27.nwnexus.net [206.63.41.77]) by mgate.nwnexus.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA14923; Sun, 2 Aug 1998 18:29:44 -0700 Message-ID: <35C51258.2C635E5A at halcyon.com> Date: Sun, 02 Aug 1998 18:28:56 -0700 From: "David C. Jenner" Reply-To: djenner at halcyon.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Michael Sokolov CC: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: The Unix Society References: <9808030052.AA18331 at blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk I think he has a point here: Restrict it to whatever the Ancient Unix license from SCO (and any equivalent licenses yet to emerge) covers. In fact, an objective could be to try to ADD more systems from vendors (like Venix, even Xenix) who required the AT&T license. If this is the case, the "Preservation" part of PUPS is OK, since what we are trying to do is preserve the use of this strain of system software. As to the first P, if not PDP(-11), then what it should refer to is the original strain of Unix--the Primordial Unix. Hence: Primordial Unix Preservation Society. (I really don't want to change my "pups" email alias!) Dave Michael Sokolov wrote: > > Warren Toomey wrote: > > While I disagree with Michael's idea of total world domination by Vaxen > > :-), I believe such a society will be composed of a multitude of > > different beliefs, ideas, sub-goals and drives. So please bear this in > > mind when mailing to the mailing list!!! > > Oh, I'm not saying that VAXen should dominate the mailing list or the > society, I'm simply saying that my project is to turn them from > "retrocomputing" into a fully competitive UNIX platform. > > > My main sub-goal is to provide a home for the PDP-11 stuff. I don't yet > > have the disk space for all the other Unix platforms. > > Keep in mind, though, that the UNIX(R) mainstream is PDP-11 _AND_ VAX. > > > Hmm. Looks like we need a larger umbrella group which caters for the > > preservation, use and development of all Unix varieties past and present. > > I nominate the name The Unix Society > > and > > > Comments on the suggestion of `The Unix Society' as a name? I'm avoiding > > using UNIX as it's a trademark, and it's an adjective. > > I personally think it's a very bad idea to extend the society to cover > freebies. Let's keep it limited to software that requires an SCO or > equivalent license. Why? Because otherwise it loses its identity. You can't > cover all UNIX and "Unix" in the world. Huge organizations like USENIX > already exist for this purpose. I believe the purpose of the society should > be to provide a home for the homeless. Here is what I mean by that. People > using "free Unices" already have scores of mailing lists and newsgroups > available to them. The only ones who are always left out are the poor > patriots of True Licensed UNIX(R). So far PUPS has been the only possible > home for them. > > Why not have a Proper UNIX(R) Patriot Society which will do the same > thing PUPS does now (provide a central clearinghouse for all licensed > UNIX(R), keep the central database of SCO license holders, discuss > licensing issues), but without restricting it to PDP-11s or to mere > preservation? I don't think we need a huge society with chapters and > subchapters to cover every possible use of every possible OS. People who > want to use a particular OS in a particular way should have their own > mailing lists to discuss really specific issues like hardware, etc. That's > what I will do for 4.3BSD-Quasijarus when it actually sees the light of > day. (For now it has a closed consortium. My experience has been that in > such early stages of development keeping discussions on a public list leads > to nothing except accusations of "vaporware" and flame wars.) PUPS should > be a central clearinghouse for licensed UNIX(R), nothing more. Its scope > should be exactly equal to the scope of the SCO license. > > Just my two bits. > > Sincerely, > Michael Sokolov > Phone: 216-368-6888 (Office) 440-449-0299 (Home) 216-217-2579 (Cellular) > ARPA Internet SMTP mail: msokolov at blackwidow.CWRU.Edu Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA12074 for pups-liszt; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 11:43:46 +1000 (EST) Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA12069 for ; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 11:43:41 +1000 (EST) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) with ESMTP id LAA11880; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 11:13:38 +0930 (CST) Received: (from grog at localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) id LAA25458; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 11:13:38 +0930 (CST) Message-ID: <19980803111338.W21892 at freebie.lemis.com> Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 11:13:38 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: djenner at halcyon.com, Michael Sokolov Cc: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: The Unix Society References: <9808030052.AA18331 at blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu> <35C51258.2C635E5A at halcyon.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: <35C51258.2C635E5A at halcyon.com>; from David C. Jenner on Sun, Aug 02, 1998 at 06:28:56PM -0700 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk On Sunday, 2 August 1998 at 18:28:56 -0700, David C. Jenner wrote: > I think he has a point here: > > Restrict it to whatever the Ancient Unix license from SCO > (and any equivalent licenses yet to emerge) covers. In fact, > an objective could be to try to ADD more systems from vendors > (like Venix, even Xenix) who required the AT&T license. That's rather conservative, isn't it? If we had done that previously, there would never now have been an SCO licence for 16 bit UNIX. If we do it now, there will never be a license for 32 bit UNIX. Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers finger grog at lemis.com for PGP public key Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA12100 for pups-liszt; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 11:50:20 +1000 (EST) Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA12095 for ; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 11:50:17 +1000 (EST) Received: (from wkt at localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA13307 for pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 11:50:42 +1000 (EST) From: Warren Toomey Message-Id: <199808030150.LAA13307 at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: Re: The Unix Heritage Society To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation) Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 11:50:42 +1000 (EST) In-Reply-To: <19980803111338.W21892 at freebie.lemis.com> from Greg Lehey at "Aug 3, 98 11:13:38 am" Reply-To: wkt at cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk In article by Greg Lehey: > On Sunday, 2 August 1998 at 18:28:56 -0700, David C. Jenner wrote: > > I think he has a point here: > > > > Restrict it to whatever the Ancient Unix license from SCO > > (and any equivalent licenses yet to emerge) covers. In fact, > > an objective could be to try to ADD more systems from vendors > > (like Venix, even Xenix) who required the AT&T license. > > That's rather conservative, isn't it? If we had done that previously, > there would never now have been an SCO licence for 16 bit UNIX. If we > do it now, there will never be a license for 32 bit UNIX. Keep it to systems which require a UNIX source license, then? Warren Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA12118 for pups-liszt; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 11:53:44 +1000 (EST) Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA12113 for ; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 11:53:41 +1000 (EST) Received: (from wkt at localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA13334; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 11:54:06 +1000 (EST) From: Warren Toomey Message-Id: <199808030154.LAA13334 at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: Re: The Unix Heritage Society To: wkt at cs.adfa.edu.au Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 11:54:06 +1000 (EST) Cc: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au In-Reply-To: <199808030150.LAA13307 at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> from Warren Toomey at "Aug 3, 98 11:50:42 am" Reply-To: wkt at cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk In article by Warren Toomey: > Keep it to systems which require a UNIX source license, then? And lobby SCO for more encompassing cheap UNIX source licenses too. I forgot to add this sentence. Warren Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA12252 for pups-liszt; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 12:33:19 +1000 (EST) Received: from nighthawk.iti.gov.sg (nighthawk.iti.gov.sg [192.122.131.51]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id MAA12246 for ; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 12:33:10 +1000 (EST) Received: (from mailer at localhost) by nighthawk.iti.gov.sg (8.6.11/8.6.11) id KAA11852; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 10:43:19 +0800 Received: from mailhub.iti.gov.sg(192.122.132.132) by nighthawk.iti.gov.sg via smap (V1.3) id sma011850; Mon Aug 3 10:43:02 1998 Received: (from joerg at localhost) by iti.gov.sg (8.8.8/8.8.5) id KAA00392; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 10:23:17 +0800 (SGT) Message-ID: <19980803102317.65086 at krdl.org.sg> Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 10:23:17 +0800 From: Joerg Micheel To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Cc: wkt at cs.adfa.oz.au, grog at begemot.org Subject: Re: The Unix Society References: <19980803085553.H21892 at freebie.lemis.com> <199808022335.JAA12929 at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> <19980803092452.N21892 at freebie.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88e In-Reply-To: <19980803092452.N21892 at freebie.lemis.com>; from Greg Lehey on Mon, Aug 03, 1998 at 09:24:52AM +0930 Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk On Mon, Aug 03, 1998 at 09:24:52AM +0930, Greg Lehey wrote: > On Monday, 3 August 1998 at 9:35:17 +1000, Warren Toomey wrote: > > In article by Greg Lehey: > >>> Hmm. Looks like we need a larger umbrella group which caters for the > >>> preservation, use and development of all Unix varieties past and present. > >>> I nominate the name The Unix Society ... > >>> Comments on the suggestion of `The Unix Society' as a name? I'm avoiding > >>> using UNIX as it's a trademark, and it's an adjective. > >> > >> I find the spelling "Unix" looks like the kind of mistake that > >> people make when they're not aware of these niceties, so I'd prefer > >> not to use it. > >> > >> More generally, though, there's nothing in the name that suggests > >> anything to do with the history of the system. For all it says to the > >> outside world, it's a new competitor to USENIX. > > > > Hmm, I don't like the all-caps UNIX, looks ugly. This is probably a taste > > thing. I wanted to avoid the word `preservation', as people like Steven, > > Michael and others are still maintaining, using and developing these systems. > > > > We need a sub-committee to come up with a new name :-) My next suggestion is > > /The UNIX Heritage Society/i > > Sounds a lot better. Time for some other comments, when the rest of > the world wakes up. Awake! I fully agree with all of Greg's statements. Btw. the original way of writing UNIX was actually unix. Small caps. Of course, using troff you could take advantage of scaling fonts and say \s-2UNIX\s+2. I'm not sure about the feeling of dmr and colleagues with respect to UNIX, but I remember him having a heavy disrespect for STREAMS as compared to streams. The thing is that with email when saying STREAMS you actually shout, which non of us intend to. Joerg -- Joerg B. Micheel Email: SingAREN Technology Center Phone: +65 7705577 Kent Ridge Digital Labs (pron: curdle) Fax: +65 7795966 11 Science Park Road Pager: +65 96016020 Singapore Science Park II Plan: Troubleshooting ATM 117685 Singapore Networks and Applications Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA12295 for pups-liszt; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 12:43:43 +1000 (EST) Received: from mgate.nwnexus.com (mgate.nwnexus.com [206.63.63.200]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA12290 for ; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 12:43:37 +1000 (EST) Received: from halcyon.com (blv-lx103-ip27.nwnexus.net [206.63.41.77]) by mgate.nwnexus.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA15396; Sun, 2 Aug 1998 19:42:50 -0700 Message-ID: <35C52376.7A546F4 at halcyon.com> Date: Sun, 02 Aug 1998 19:41:58 -0700 From: "David C. Jenner" Reply-To: djenner at halcyon.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Greg Lehey CC: Michael Sokolov , pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: The Unix Society References: <9808030052.AA18331 at blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu> <35C51258.2C635E5A at halcyon.com> <19980803111338.W21892 at freebie.lemis.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk I don't think I'm saying what you think I said? I not trying to restrict it to nothing, or even not 32-bit. But then it's Sunday night here, and Monday morning there, so maybe I'm not clear about what I said!? Dave Greg Lehey wrote: > > On Sunday, 2 August 1998 at 18:28:56 -0700, David C. Jenner wrote: > > I think he has a point here: > > > > Restrict it to whatever the Ancient Unix license from SCO > > (and any equivalent licenses yet to emerge) covers. In fact, > > an objective could be to try to ADD more systems from vendors > > (like Venix, even Xenix) who required the AT&T license. > > That's rather conservative, isn't it? If we had done that previously, > there would never now have been an SCO licence for 16 bit UNIX. If we > do it now, there will never be a license for 32 bit UNIX. > > Greg Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA12306 for pups-liszt; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 12:45:16 +1000 (EST) Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA12301 for ; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 12:45:11 +1000 (EST) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) with ESMTP id MAA12075; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 12:15:01 +0930 (CST) Received: (from grog at localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) id MAA25665; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 12:14:56 +0930 (CST) Message-ID: <19980803121455.D25574 at freebie.lemis.com> Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 12:14:55 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: djenner at halcyon.com Cc: Michael Sokolov , pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: The Unix Society References: <9808030052.AA18331 at blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu> <35C51258.2C635E5A at halcyon.com> <19980803111338.W21892 at freebie.lemis.com> <35C52376.7A546F4 at halcyon.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: <35C52376.7A546F4 at halcyon.com>; from David C. Jenner on Sun, Aug 02, 1998 at 07:41:58PM -0700 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk On Sunday, 2 August 1998 at 19:41:58 -0700, David C. Jenner wrote: > I don't think I'm saying what you think I said? I not trying to > restrict it to nothing, or even not 32-bit. > > But then it's Sunday night here, and Monday morning there, so maybe > I'm not clear about what I said!? > > Greg Lehey wrote: >> >> On Sunday, 2 August 1998 at 18:28:56 -0700, David C. Jenner wrote: >>> I think he has a point here: >>> >>> Restrict it to whatever the Ancient Unix license from SCO >>> (and any equivalent licenses yet to emerge) covers. In fact, >>> an objective could be to try to ADD more systems from vendors >>> (like Venix, even Xenix) who required the AT&T license. OK. The current SCO license is limited specifically to 16 bis systems. We'd like to get, say, System V as well. Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers finger grog at lemis.com for PGP public key Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA12348 for pups-liszt; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 12:51:00 +1000 (EST) Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA12343 for ; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 12:50:56 +1000 (EST) Received: (from wkt at localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id MAA13502 for pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 12:51:22 +1000 (EST) From: Warren Toomey Message-Id: <199808030251.MAA13502 at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: Extending the cheap SCO src license To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation) Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 12:51:22 +1000 (EST) In-Reply-To: <19980803121455.D25574 at freebie.lemis.com> from Greg Lehey at "Aug 3, 98 12:14:55 pm" Reply-To: wkt at cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk In article by Greg Lehey: > OK. The current SCO license is limited specifically to 16 bit > systems. We'd like to get, say, System V as well. > > Greg After negotiating with SCO, I can safely say that they won't make System V cheaply available for any system, yet. Heck, they wouldn't even let us have the crippled System V for the PDP-11. You might be lucky to get System III added to the source license, and separate binary-only licenses for certain System V systems. That's another battle, tho. Warren Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA12393 for pups-liszt; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 13:06:41 +1000 (EST) Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA12388 for ; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 13:06:37 +1000 (EST) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) with ESMTP id MAA12131; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 12:36:30 +0930 (CST) Received: (from grog at localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) id MAA25734; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 12:36:29 +0930 (CST) Message-ID: <19980803123629.E25574 at freebie.lemis.com> Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 12:36:29 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: wkt at cs.adfa.oz.au, PDP Unix Preservation Subject: Re: Extending the cheap SCO src license References: <19980803121455.D25574 at freebie.lemis.com> <199808030251.MAA13502 at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: <199808030251.MAA13502 at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>; from Warren Toomey on Mon, Aug 03, 1998 at 12:51:22PM +1000 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk On Monday, 3 August 1998 at 12:51:22 +1000, Warren Toomey wrote: > In article by Greg Lehey: >> OK. The current SCO license is limited specifically to 16 bit >> systems. We'd like to get, say, System V as well. > > After negotiating with SCO, I can safely say that they won't make System V > cheaply available for any system, yet. Heck, they wouldn't even let us have > the crippled System V for the PDP-11. Yet. What did the situation look like for the Seventh Edition 5 years ago? > You might be lucky to get System III added to the source license, > and separate binary-only licenses for certain System V > systems. That's another battle, tho. Sure. I was just saying we shouldn't accept the status quo, not that we should go tilting at windmills. Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers finger grog at lemis.com for PGP public key Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA12418 for pups-liszt; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 13:12:22 +1000 (EST) Received: from blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu (blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu [129.22.50.4]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id NAA12413 for ; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 13:12:17 +1000 (EST) Received: by blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu (5.67/MS-InetSite-1.1) id AA18488; Sun, 2 Aug 98 23:12:49 -0400 Date: Sun, 2 Aug 98 23:12:49 -0400 From: msokolov@blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu (Michael Sokolov) Message-Id: <9808030312.AA18488 at blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu> To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: The Unix Society Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk Warren Toomey writes: > Hmm, I don't like the all-caps UNIX, looks ugly. This is probably a taste > thing. It is absolutely crucial, since it emphasizes that we are talking about the one single system named UNIX, rather than any of its teenage "free" clones. Sincerely, Michael Sokolov Phone: 216-368-6888 (Office) 440-449-0299 (Home) 216-217-2579 (Cellular) ARPA Internet SMTP mail: msokolov at blackwidow.CWRU.Edu Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA12427 for pups-liszt; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 13:13:47 +1000 (EST) Received: from blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu (blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu [129.22.50.4]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id NAA12422 for ; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 13:13:42 +1000 (EST) Received: by blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu (5.67/MS-InetSite-1.1) id AA18492; Sun, 2 Aug 98 23:14:16 -0400 Date: Sun, 2 Aug 98 23:14:16 -0400 From: msokolov@blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu (Michael Sokolov) Message-Id: <9808030314.AA18492 at blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu> To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: The Unix Society Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk Warren Toomey writes: > I wanted to avoid the word `preservation', as people like Steven, > Michael and others are still maintaining, using and developing these > systems. Yes! However, later you write: > My next suggestion is > /The UNIX Heritage Society/i Nee, see below. David C. Jenner writes: > If this is the case, the "Preservation" part of PUPS is OK, since > what we are trying to do is preserve the use of this strain of > system software. No, no, PLEASE get rid of that "preservation" stigma. It's like a brand on a slave, a constant reminder of limits and constraints. Terms like "preservation", "historical", "heritage", "primordial", "ancient", etc. all suggest something of purely historical value. This is EXTREMELY insulting to those of us for whom True UNIX(R) is the ONLY multiuser operating system. > Primordial Unix Preservation Society. Same problem. Why not Proper UNIX(R) Patriot Society? > (I really don't want to change my "pups" email alias!) I agree. Hence my suggestion above. Sincerely, Michael Sokolov Phone: 216-368-6888 (Office) 440-449-0299 (Home) 216-217-2579 (Cellular) ARPA Internet SMTP mail: msokolov at blackwidow.CWRU.Edu Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA12441 for pups-liszt; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 13:14:13 +1000 (EST) Received: from blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu (blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu [129.22.50.4]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id NAA12436 for ; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 13:14:06 +1000 (EST) Received: by blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu (5.67/MS-InetSite-1.1) id AA18496; Sun, 2 Aug 98 23:14:39 -0400 Date: Sun, 2 Aug 98 23:14:39 -0400 From: msokolov@blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu (Michael Sokolov) Message-Id: <9808030314.AA18496 at blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu> To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: The Unix Society Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk Warren Toomey writes: > I'd disagree with that last sentence, as it excludes System V. Yes, you are right. > Keep it to systems which require a UNIX source license, then? Yes! Sincerely, Michael Sokolov Phone: 216-368-6888 (Office) 440-449-0299 (Home) 216-217-2579 (Cellular) ARPA Internet SMTP mail: msokolov at blackwidow.CWRU.Edu Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA12448 for pups-liszt; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 13:14:50 +1000 (EST) Received: from blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu (blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu [129.22.50.4]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id NAA12443 for ; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 13:14:42 +1000 (EST) Received: by blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu (5.67/MS-InetSite-1.1) id AA18511; Sun, 2 Aug 98 23:15:15 -0400 Date: Sun, 2 Aug 98 23:15:15 -0400 From: msokolov@blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu (Michael Sokolov) Message-Id: <9808030315.AA18511 at blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu> To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: The Unix Society Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk Greg Lehey writes: > [...] an SCO licence for 16 bit UNIX. If we > do it now, there will never be a license for 32 bit UNIX. Excuse me, sir, I have to make a point here. The SCO license _DOES_ cover 32-bit UNIX(R), namely 32V! 32V is the first version of UNIX for 32- bit machines aka VAXen, and it's the mother of EVERYTHING known today as West Coast UNIX, from 3BSD to the freebies, whether for VAXen or other 32- bit CPUs. As I have said all along, PUPS's pre-hung-up'ness on PDP-11s has been the source of a lot of grief for us the VAX lovers. It is the reason why SCO's license talks so much about PDP-11s and the reason I have had so much trouble obtaining the software I need, since everyone believes that the SCO license is limited to 16-bit toys. Of course it is not, and in fact it is the reason why Marshall Kirk McKusick is releasing the CD-ROMs with CSRG's code (80% of which is 32-bit), but thanks to PUPS's pre-hung-up'ness on PDP-11s, try to explain this to people! Thanks Daemon the gang is finally beginning to realize that UNIX(R) runs on more than just PDP-11s. Sincerely, Michael Sokolov Phone: 216-368-6888 (Office) 440-449-0299 (Home) 216-217-2579 (Cellular) ARPA Internet SMTP mail: msokolov at blackwidow.CWRU.Edu Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA12458 for pups-liszt; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 13:15:14 +1000 (EST) Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA12453 for ; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 13:15:10 +1000 (EST) Received: (from wkt at localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id NAA15369 for pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 13:15:35 +1000 (EST) From: Warren Toomey Message-Id: <199808030315.NAA15369 at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: Re: Extending the cheap SCO src license To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation) Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 13:15:35 +1000 (EST) In-Reply-To: <19980803123629.E25574 at freebie.lemis.com> from Greg Lehey at "Aug 3, 98 12:36:29 pm" Reply-To: wkt at cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk In article by Greg Lehey: > > After negotiating with SCO, I can safely say that they won't make System V > > cheaply available for any system, yet. Heck, they wouldn't even let us have > > the crippled System V for the PDP-11. > > Yet. What did the situation look like for the Seventh Edition 5 years > ago? I was just saying we shouldn't accept the status quo, not that > we should go tilting at windmills. > Greg I agree that we should continue to lobby SCO, and more importantly so now that we have a foothold. I'm just pointing out the current `reality', but I'm sure it will change over time. Warren Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA12485 for pups-liszt; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 13:16:35 +1000 (EST) Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA12480 for ; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 13:16:32 +1000 (EST) Received: (from wkt at localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id NAA15399 for pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 13:16:57 +1000 (EST) From: Warren Toomey Message-Id: <199808030316.NAA15399 at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: Re: The Unix Society To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation) Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 13:16:57 +1000 (EST) In-Reply-To: <9808030312.AA18488 at blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu> from Michael Sokolov at "Aug 2, 98 11:12:49 pm" Reply-To: wkt at cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk In article by Michael Sokolov: > Warren Toomey writes: > > Hmm, I don't like the all-caps UNIX, looks ugly. This is probably a taste > > thing. > > It is absolutely crucial, since it emphasizes that we are talking about > the one single system named UNIX, rather than any of its teenage "free" > clones. If having a source license was a requirement for the systems we cover, then I'd say this was pretty reasonable. Warren Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA12572 for pups-liszt; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 13:26:33 +1000 (EST) Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA12559 for ; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 13:26:26 +1000 (EST) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) with ESMTP id MAA12218; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 12:56:16 +0930 (CST) Received: (from grog at localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) id MAA25780; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 12:56:16 +0930 (CST) Message-ID: <19980803125616.F25574 at freebie.lemis.com> Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 12:56:16 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: Michael Sokolov , pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: The Unix Society References: <9808030314.AA18492 at blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: <9808030314.AA18492 at blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu>; from Michael Sokolov on Sun, Aug 02, 1998 at 11:14:16PM -0400 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk On Sunday, 2 August 1998 at 23:14:16 -0400, Michael Sokolov wrote: > Warren Toomey writes: >> If this is the case, the "Preservation" part of PUPS is OK, since >> what we are trying to do is preserve the use of this strain of >> system software. > > No, no, PLEASE get rid of that "preservation" stigma. It's like a brand > on a slave, a constant reminder of limits and constraints. Terms like > "preservation", "historical", "heritage", "primordial", "ancient", etc. all > suggest something of purely historical value. This is EXTREMELY insulting > to those of us for whom True UNIX(R) is the ONLY multiuser operating > system. I would have a problem being a "Patriot". Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers finger grog at lemis.com for PGP public key Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA12628 for pups-liszt; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 13:30:47 +1000 (EST) Received: from blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu (blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu [129.22.50.4]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id NAA12623 for ; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 13:30:41 +1000 (EST) Received: by blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu (5.67/MS-InetSite-1.1) id AA18573; Sun, 2 Aug 98 23:31:14 -0400 Date: Sun, 2 Aug 98 23:31:14 -0400 From: msokolov@blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu (Michael Sokolov) Message-Id: <9808030331.AA18573 at blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu> To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: The Unix Society Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk Greg Lehey writes: > OK. The current SCO license is limited specifically to 16 bis > systems. You still don't get it. WRONG! Quoting from the license text: > 3. LICENSED SOURCE CODE PRODUCTS > > The SOURCE CODE PRODUCTS to which SCO grants rights under this > Agreement are restricted to the following UNIX Operating Systems, > including SUCCESSOR OPERATING SYSTEMs, that operate on the 16-Bit > PDP-11 CPU and early versions of the 32-Bit UNIX Operating System ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > with specific exclusion of UNIX System V and successor operating > systems: > > 16-Bit UNIX Editions 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 > 32-bit 32V ^^^^^^^^^^^ Do you get it know? Probably not. Oh well. Sincerely, Michael Sokolov Phone: 216-368-6888 (Office) 440-449-0299 (Home) 216-217-2579 (Cellular) ARPA Internet SMTP mail: msokolov at blackwidow.CWRU.Edu Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA12732 for pups-liszt; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 13:42:26 +1000 (EST) Received: from blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu (blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu [129.22.50.4]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id NAA12727 for ; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 13:42:20 +1000 (EST) Received: by blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu (5.67/MS-InetSite-1.1) id AA18616; Sun, 2 Aug 98 23:42:53 -0400 Date: Sun, 2 Aug 98 23:42:53 -0400 From: msokolov@blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu (Michael Sokolov) Message-Id: <9808030342.AA18616 at blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu> To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: The Unix Society Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk Warren Toomey writes: > If having a source license was a requirement for the systems we cover, > then I'd say this was pretty reasonable. It is, isn't it? Sincerely, Michael Sokolov Phone: 216-368-6888 (Office) 440-449-0299 (Home) 216-217-2579 (Cellular) ARPA Internet SMTP mail: msokolov at blackwidow.CWRU.Edu Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA12785 for pups-liszt; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 13:45:30 +1000 (EST) Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA12780 for ; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 13:45:26 +1000 (EST) Received: (from wkt at localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id NAA15453 for pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 13:45:52 +1000 (EST) From: Warren Toomey Message-Id: <199808030345.NAA15453 at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: What to do now with PUPS To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation) Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 13:45:52 +1000 (EST) In-Reply-To: <9808030315.AA18511 at blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu> from Michael Sokolov at "Aug 2, 98 11:15:15 pm" Reply-To: wkt at cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk In article by Michael Sokolov: > As I have said all along, PUPS's pre-hung-up'ness on PDP-11s has been > the source of a lot of grief for us the VAX lovers. It is the reason why > SCO's license talks so much about PDP-11s and the reason I have had so much > trouble obtaining the software I need, since everyone believes that the SCO > license is limited to 16-bit toys. Of course it is not, and in fact it is > the reason why Marshall Kirk McKusick is releasing the CD-ROMs with CSRG's > code (80% of which is 32-bit), but thanks to PUPS's pre-hung-up'ness on > PDP-11s, try to explain this to people! > > Thanks Daemon the gang is finally beginning to realize that UNIX(R) runs > on more than just PDP-11s. > > Michael Sokolov I'd just like to comment on Michael's e-mail, just for the record. The PDP-11 UNIX Preservation Society was, at one point, just me. I'd had help from Steven Schultz, Tim Shoppa, John Wilson and Torsten Hippe, and my personal goal was to get copies of 6th and 7th Edition Unix, for historical reasons. Since then, people with similar interests have accumulated. We've set up a mailing list, web page etc. Steven and I took months to lobby SCO to make source licenses available. We started in late '95/early '96. Again, we were driven by our own personal goals of making cheap licenses for PDP-11 UNIXes available. We were also guided by the web-based survey, see http://minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au/PUPS/pdpquiz_sum.html, which showed an awful lot more interest for PDP-11 UNIXes than 32-bit UNIXes. Yes, PUPS has been hung up on PDP-11s. There's no denying that. It's a result of the personal drives that Steven, I, and the other active members of the mailing list have. If we have caused grief to the VAX users, it was unintentional. The license that we negotiated with SCO was based as much on our personal goals as on pragmatics. During the negotiations, it became apparent that: + There was a substantial bloc at SCO who didn't want ANY license + For the rest, Research Editions 1 to 7 was ok + 32V was dubious: most people didn't want this licensed + System III was also dubious + System V was definitely right out: nobody wanted this licensed The fact that we got 32V on the SCO license was, in my opinion, damn lucky, even though I pushed and pushed and pushed for this to be included. SCO, for their part, probably feel that they have limited the `damage' by only licensing the 16-bit systems, and 32V (grudgingly). Now why was I pushing 32V so hard? Because I knew it would open the path for CSRG to release the BSD flavours. This is the ONLY reason why I fought so hard for it to be included in the license. Hopefully this has filled in some of the background on the behind-the-scenes work. I agree that, up to now, the effort has concentrated on the 16-bit systems. I knew that, by getting 32V into the license, it would give scope for the 32-bit systems. At the same time, there was NO WAY that SCO would have licensed any other 32-bit system. The license we have reflects SCO's legal concerns as much as the negotiators' PDP preference. However, 32V is licensed, and Kirk will be selling the CRSG BSD releases on a 4-CD set next week. A fair proportion of PDP-11 UNIX history has been saved. Now it's time for those with a preference for other systems to extend what has been achieved. Go for it! Warren Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA12836 for pups-liszt; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 14:03:57 +1000 (EST) Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA12831 for ; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 14:03:53 +1000 (EST) Received: (from wkt at localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA15507 for pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 14:04:19 +1000 (EST) From: Warren Toomey Message-Id: <199808030404.OAA15507 at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: Re: The UNIX Heritage Society To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation) Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 14:04:19 +1000 (EST) In-Reply-To: <19980803125616.F25574 at freebie.lemis.com> from Greg Lehey at "Aug 3, 98 12:56:16 pm" Reply-To: wkt at cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk In article by Greg Lehey: Michael writes: > > No, no, PLEASE get rid of that "preservation" stigma. It's like a brand > > on a slave, a constant reminder of limits and constraints. Terms like > > "preservation", "historical", "heritage", "primordial", "ancient", etc. all > > suggest something of purely historical value. This is EXTREMELY insulting > > to those of us for whom True UNIX(R) is the ONLY multiuser operating > > system. > > I would have a problem being a "Patriot". > > Greg Heritage means: that which may be inherited. I think this is appropriate, as we have all inherited a wonderful system from Ken and Dennis. In fact, we've inherited the UNIX paradigm, which influences the way we think. My dictionary says a patriot is one who is zealous for his country's freedom or rights, and a zealot is an uncompromising or extreme partisan or fanatic. I would also have a problem being a "Patriot". If I was uncompromising, we would have no cheap SCO license. I don't think we need to retro-fit a name into the PUPS acronym. I'm still in favour of The UNIX Heritage Society. For those unaccustomed to the amount of traffic on the PUPS list, don't forget that you can switch to the digest version. echo 'subscribe pups-digest' | mail majordomo at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Warren Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA12985 for pups-liszt; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 14:54:42 +1000 (EST) Received: from nighthawk.iti.gov.sg (nighthawk.iti.gov.sg [192.122.131.51]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id OAA12980 for ; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 14:54:35 +1000 (EST) Received: (from mailer at localhost) by nighthawk.iti.gov.sg (8.6.11/8.6.11) id MAA12622; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 12:20:46 +0800 Received: from mailhub.iti.gov.sg(192.122.132.132) by nighthawk.iti.gov.sg via smap (V1.3) id sma012619; Mon Aug 3 12:20:28 1998 Received: (from joerg at localhost) by iti.gov.sg (8.8.8/8.8.5) id MAA04106; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 12:00:43 +0800 (SGT) Message-ID: <19980803120042.27955 at krdl.org.sg> Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 12:00:42 +0800 From: Joerg Micheel To: Michael Sokolov Cc: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: The Unix Society References: <9808030331.AA18573 at blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88e In-Reply-To: <9808030331.AA18573 at blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu>; from Michael Sokolov on Sun, Aug 02, 1998 at 11:31:14PM -0400 Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk Mikhail, On Sun, Aug 02, 1998 at 11:31:14PM -0400, Michael Sokolov wrote: > > Do you get it know? Probably not. Oh well. Last time I met Greg he was still able to read, although he needs glasses already. I think that his glasses actually do a very good job since he was figuring that the license explicitely blocks access to System V and friends (Please read your own email again). The thing is that there are people out there who really enjoy the PDP-11 as a smart machine. Those people presumably have written code for this machine in assembler. Another group of people is interested in the early roots of unix. The PDP-11 in that case serves as a host for this interest. But the historic interest does not stop at the hardware of the PDP-11, it is rather an interest in the full life cycle of the OS. 32V, while important, is really a hack rather than a 32bit port of the UNIX or BSD operating system. Those people who make statements about 32bit UNIX not being available are very likely aware of this fact, either because they where there at the time this happend, or, like myself, have devoured every interesting UNIX book around and have also come across Peter H. Salus' A quater century of UNIX. You might find it interesting to read, too. With respect to PUPS I do understand that we are interested in the history of UNIX and that the term Warren coined fits exactly our idea. There is nothing wrong with renaming PUPS but leave the email alias as it is. Those interested in the history of the society (we are getting recursive on history by now) can read on the Web Page that we originally dealt with the Preservation of the PDP-11 UNIX only. Regards, Joerg -- Joerg B. Micheel Email: SingAREN Technology Center Phone: +65 7705577 Kent Ridge Digital Labs (pron: curdle) Fax: +65 7795966 11 Science Park Road Pager: +65 96016020 Singapore Science Park II Plan: Troubleshooting ATM 117685 Singapore Networks and Applications Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA13010 for pups-liszt; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 15:00:35 +1000 (EST) Received: from europe.std.com (europe.std.com [199.172.62.20]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA13005 for ; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 15:00:29 +1000 (EST) Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.7.6/BZS-8-1.0) id BAA09014; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 01:00:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost by world.std.com (TheWorld/Spike-2.0) id AA11935; Sun, 2 Aug 1998 22:00:18 -0700 Date: Sun, 2 Aug 1998 22:00:18 -0700 (PST) From: Brian D Chase To: PDP Unix Preservation Subject: Re: The Unix Society In-Reply-To: <199808022335.JAA12929 at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk On Mon, 3 Aug 1998, Warren Toomey wrote: > Hmm, I don't like the all-caps UNIX, looks ugly. This is probably a taste > thing. I wanted to avoid the word `preservation', as people like Steven, > Michael and others are still maintaining, using and developing these systems. > > We need a sub-committee to come up with a new name :-) My next suggestion is > /The UNIX Heritage Society/i I seem to recall a direct quote of either Thompson or Ritchie saying that they'd intended to use the name "Unix" instead of "UNIX" but that is what the OS was trademarked with by the Bell Labs lawyers. It may have been on one of their personal web pages that I read it. -brian. --- Brian "JARAI" Chase | http://world.std.com/~bdc/ | VAXZilla LIVES!!! Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA14184 for pups-liszt; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 23:11:15 +1000 (EST) Received: from europe.std.com (europe.std.com [199.172.62.20]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA14179 for ; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 23:11:08 +1000 (EST) Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.7.6/BZS-8-1.0) id JAA05420; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 09:11:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: by world.std.com (TheWorld/Spike-2.0) id AA10670; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 09:11:02 -0400 Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 09:11:02 -0400 From: allisonp@world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Message-Id: <199808031311.AA10670 at world.std.com> To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: The UNIX Heritage Society Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk < Heritage means: that which may be inherited. I think this is appropriate ^^^ has Heritiage is generally historical in context be it previous or present tense for the future. Preservation in teh case of PDP-11 (and otehr 16bit) was needed or it may have been lost. One assumes the license grantors actually have complete sources. In the case of at least on other OS they had the license but little of the code. < as we have all inherited a wonderful system from Ken and Dennis. In fact < we've inherited the UNIX paradigm, which influences the way we think. True. The key here is there are two types of OSs, retired(not commercially viable or no support) and those that have commercial value. Let us not forget Mike is trying to develop a commercially viable OS that is not free or shareware. Also by and large Mike is in the process of doing what other call archeology. One must resore and understand the structure before building upon it. The patriot stuff, pure poof. Allison Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA14295 for pups-liszt; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 23:47:33 +1000 (EST) Received: from seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu (seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu [152.1.88.4]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA14290 for ; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 23:47:27 +1000 (EST) Received: (from rdkeys at localhost) by seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA17517 for pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 09:42:55 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from rdkeys) From: "User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys" Message-Id: <199808031342.JAA17517 at seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> Subject: Re: Extending the cheap SCO src license In-Reply-To: <199808030251.MAA13502 at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> from Warren Toomey at "Aug 3, 98 12:51:22 pm" To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 09:42:53 -0400 (EDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL38 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk > > OK. The current SCO license is limited specifically to 16 bit > > systems. We'd like to get, say, System V as well. > > > > Greg > > After negotiating with SCO, I can safely say that they won't make System V > cheaply available for any system, yet. Heck, they wouldn't even let us have > the crippled System V for the PDP-11. Do any of us really want SysV? One can get that in a free license for unixware or such, as it is, if I am understanding things correctly. > You might be lucky to get System III added to the source license, and separate > binary-only licenses for certain System V systems. That's another battle, tho. Gee, I sense I have stirred up a wee bit of a hornets nest. For the sake of discussion, maybe that is good. What I had originally thought was that it might be possible to include under the PUPS banner (or whatever it is to be called {PUPS is fine to me}), to include orphan unices. Let me suggest that what I mean by orphan unices is a flavor of unix in binary or source that is essentially commercially past history. That would specifically be to keep from camping on SCO's income. What might be considered an orphan unix? One might consider things like the BSD tree to be orphan, as it relates to non-commercial use (one would consider BSDI commercial, but most of the others non-commercial maybe). One might consider something like Coherent to be non-commercial anymore. Although that is not a ``true'' unix, it sure looks and feels the same and quacks very much like a V7 or early SysV. Xenix falls into the same quacks like a duck category. Although Xenix is still used commercially, it may be be time to begin to consider that we might, in due time, aproach SCO to offer a hobby style Xenix license of some sort. I would not expect them to offer source, although that might be workable after time. One might consider the old RT and PS/2 unices (AOS and AIX 1 and 2) to be orphanware. I am sure there are others. Perhaps even the 3Bx kind of thing could be suitably binary hobby licensed. I would have a hard time imagining that SCO would consider the old ATT boxes any sort of a moneymaker these days. Where SCO would feel that we are too close to home, then maybe only a binary license of some sort would be all that we could collectively expect. What about something like 386BSD? That began in the 4.3BSD era if I am reading things corectly, and it sure walks and quacks like the real thing. These kinds of things, I would think, are of merit to keep archives of, for the purposes and goals that we collectively seem be be heading towards. Is this reasonable? Just thinking out loud..... If nothing else, the discussion is good..... Bob Keys Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA14465 for pups-liszt; Tue, 4 Aug 1998 00:16:35 +1000 (EST) Received: from seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu (seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu [152.1.88.4]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA14460 for ; Tue, 4 Aug 1998 00:16:29 +1000 (EST) Received: (from rdkeys at localhost) by seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA17764; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 10:11:54 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from rdkeys) From: "User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys" Message-Id: <199808031411.KAA17764 at seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> Subject: Re: The UNIX Heritage Society In-Reply-To: <199808031311.AA10670 at world.std.com> from Allison J Parent at "Aug 3, 98 09:11:02 am" To: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 10:11:52 -0400 (EDT) Cc: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL38 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk > Preservation in teh case of PDP-11 (and otehr 16bit) was needed or it may > have been lost. One assumes the license grantors actually have complete > sources. In the case of at least on other OS they had the license but > little of the code. This is a most interesting point, and one we all need to consider. I will interpret from Allison's remarks that CP/M may be being referred to here. In that case, it was mostly all lost sources, and only a little was found (and a lot of leftovers kept by the early hacker types). It would NOT have been possible to recreate or resurrect it without such help. The one thing that I have noted in the 28 years I have played with computers (only the last 20 seriously), is that sources tend to get very lost in the passage of time. Alas, if you try to recreate or resurrect the old early boxes, you are lost without the tidbits of sources, binaries, and OS notes that seem to be all to vaporware, anymore. So much of it is NOT kept around by the companies. And, many of the companies are bellyup, or have passed through so many hands, that the original materials are long forgotten or gone. Somehow, we need to collectively keep enough of the bits and pieces so that down the road, others may be able to see what it was actually all about. I heartily applaud the efforts of all the various groups like the PUPS, and the efforts of folks like Warren and Kirk to keep the unix flavors alive. > The key here is there are two types of OSs, retired(not commercially > viable or no support) and those that have commercial value. I would expect that our collective interests center on the former, even though some/many of us may dabble in it commercially/professionally. Bob Keys Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA17033 for pups-liszt; Tue, 4 Aug 1998 12:23:27 +1000 (EST) Received: from nighthawk.iti.gov.sg (nighthawk.iti.gov.sg [192.122.131.51]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id MAA17028 for ; Tue, 4 Aug 1998 12:23:19 +1000 (EST) Received: (from mailer at localhost) by nighthawk.iti.gov.sg (8.6.11/8.6.11) id KAA20343; Tue, 4 Aug 1998 10:34:48 +0800 Received: from mailhub.iti.gov.sg(192.122.132.132) by nighthawk.iti.gov.sg via smap (V1.3) id sma020334; Tue Aug 4 10:34:31 1998 Received: (from joerg at localhost) by iti.gov.sg (8.8.8/8.8.5) id KAA29944; Tue, 4 Aug 1998 10:14:43 +0800 (SGT) Message-ID: <19980804101443.54947 at krdl.org.sg> Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1998 10:14:43 +0800 From: Joerg Micheel To: "User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys" Cc: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: Extending the cheap SCO src license References: <199808030251.MAA13502 at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> <199808031342.JAA17517 at seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88e In-Reply-To: <199808031342.JAA17517 at seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu>; from User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys on Mon, Aug 03, 1998 at 09:42:53AM -0400 Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk On Mon, Aug 03, 1998 at 09:42:53AM -0400, User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys wrote: > > After negotiating with SCO, I can safely say that they won't make System V > > cheaply available for any system, yet. Heck, they wouldn't even let us have > > the crippled System V for the PDP-11. > > Do any of us really want SysV? One can get that in a free license for unixware > or such, as it is, if I am understanding things correctly. Sure, try writing a driver or some stuff that involves kernel variables - and you are stuck. Actually, this reminds me that Sun did a large buy-out for System V and the procedure for getting Solaris kernel sources has become dramatically more easy. They might still send it to you for a nominal fee (last time DM 4,600), as long as you use it for non-commercial purposes (e.g. universities, research institutes). Anybody more detailed information on this ? Joerg ---- Joerg B. Micheel Email: SingAREN Technology Center Phone: +65 7705577 Kent Ridge Digital Labs (pron: curdle) Fax: +65 7795966 11 Science Park Road Pager: +65 96016020 Singapore Science Park II Plan: Troubleshooting ATM 117685 Singapore Networks and Applications Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA17300 for pups-liszt; Tue, 4 Aug 1998 14:15:06 +1000 (EST) Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA17295 for ; Tue, 4 Aug 1998 14:15:01 +1000 (EST) Received: (from wkt at localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA17823; Tue, 4 Aug 1998 14:15:23 +1000 (EST) From: Warren Toomey Message-Id: <199808040415.OAA17823 at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: Re: Extending the cheap SCO src license To: rdkeys at seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu (User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys) Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1998 14:15:23 +1000 (EST) Cc: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au In-Reply-To: <199808031342.JAA17517 at seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> from "User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys" at "Aug 3, 98 09:42:53 am" Reply-To: wkt at cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk In article by User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys: > Do any of us really want SysV? Not me :-) > Where SCO would feel that we are too close to home, then maybe only a > binary license of some sort would be all that we could collectively expect. > What about something like 386BSD? That began in the 4.3BSD era if I am I've got 386BSD 0.1 sources, but no binaries. > reading things corectly, and it sure walks and quacks like the real thing. > These kinds of things, I would think, are of merit to keep archives of, > for the purposes and goals that we collectively seem be be heading towards. I collect most anything :-) UNIX, Unix, [1234]BSD, Minix etc etc. Don't really want System III or V though, or Slowaris. Ciao, Warren Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA17431 for pups-liszt; Tue, 4 Aug 1998 15:10:08 +1000 (EST) Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA17426 for ; Tue, 4 Aug 1998 15:10:02 +1000 (EST) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) with ESMTP id OAA16006; Tue, 4 Aug 1998 14:39:49 +0930 (CST) Received: (from grog at localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) id OAA00313; Tue, 4 Aug 1998 14:39:47 +0930 (CST) Message-ID: <19980804143947.M25942 at freebie.lemis.com> Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1998 14:39:47 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: "User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys" , pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: Extending the cheap SCO src license References: <199808030251.MAA13502 at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> <199808031342.JAA17517 at seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: <199808031342.JAA17517 at seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu>; from User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys on Mon, Aug 03, 1998 at 09:42:53AM -0400 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk On Monday, 3 August 1998 at 9:42:53 -0400, User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys wrote: >>> OK. The current SCO license is limited specifically to 16 bit >>> systems. We'd like to get, say, System V as well. >>> >>> Greg >> >> After negotiating with SCO, I can safely say that they won't make System V >> cheaply available for any system, yet. Heck, they wouldn't even let us have >> the crippled System V for the PDP-11. > > Do any of us really want SysV? One can get that in a free license for unixware > or such, as it is, if I am understanding things correctly. You don't get the source with UnixWare. And yes, I can conceive that the sources of old versions of System V could be of interest, if only for the computer etymologist. I have a Tandem LXN (68020 based SMP machine, about 11 years old) which ran an interesting version of System V.2 and V.3.0. While I was still at Tandem, I backed up the last versions of the source (in Austin TX), and unfortunately I didn't discover that the backup failed until I got back to Germany. AFAIK the sources are lost forever: they scrapped the machine shortly after. >> You might be lucky to get System III added to the source license, and separate >> binary-only licenses for certain System V systems. That's another battle, tho. > > Gee, I sense I have stirred up a wee bit of a hornets nest. For the sake of > discussion, maybe that is good. > > What I had originally thought was that it might be possible to include under > the PUPS banner (or whatever it is to be called {PUPS is fine to me}), to > include orphan unices. Let me suggest that what I mean by orphan unices is > a flavor of unix in binary or source that is essentially commercially past > history. That would specifically be to keep from camping on SCO's > income. In principle, not a bad idea. > What might be considered an orphan unix? One might consider things > like the BSD tree to be orphan, as it relates to non-commercial use > (one would consider BSDI commercial, but most of the others > non-commercial maybe). Well, there are plenty of people actively working on the BSD tree. I wouldn't consider it orphan. > One might consider something like Coherent to be non-commercial anymore. > Although that is not a ``true'' unix, it sure looks and feels the same > and quacks very much like a V7 or early SysV. Xenix falls into the same > quacks like a duck category. Although Xenix is still used commercially, > it may be be time to begin to consider that we might, in due time, aproach > SCO to offer a hobby style Xenix license of some sort. I think you would run into extreme resistance inside SCO at the moment, more than you would for, say, System V Release 1. Although it's obsolete, it wasn't that long ago (3 years?) that it was earning more money for SCO than Open Deathtrap was. > I would not expect them to offer source, although that might be > workable after time. One might consider the old RT and PS/2 unices > (AOS and AIX 1 and 2) to be orphanware. I am sure there are others. > Perhaps even the 3Bx kind of thing could be suitably binary hobby > licensed. I would have a hard time imagining that SCO would > consider the old ATT boxes any sort of a moneymaker these days. > Where SCO would feel that we are too close to home, then maybe only > a binary license of some sort would be all that we could > collectively expect. What would you do with a binary license. > What about something like 386BSD? That began in the 4.3BSD era if I > am reading things corectly, and it sure walks and quacks like the > real thing. These kinds of things, I would think, are of merit to > keep archives of, for the purposes and goals that we collectively > seem be be heading towards. FWIW, 386BSD is available in source form. Dr. Dobbs still has a CD-ROM that you can buy. But 386BSD also evolved into FreeBSD, NetBSD and OpenBSD, all of which are still alive, kicking and further developing. Anything but orphans. I'm writing this on a FreeBSD machine. > If nothing else, the discussion is good..... Definitely. Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers finger grog at lemis.com for PGP public key Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA18632 for pups-liszt; Tue, 4 Aug 1998 22:56:43 +1000 (EST) Received: from lion.cs.yorku.ca (lion.cs.yorku.ca [130.63.86.25]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id WAA18627 for ; Tue, 4 Aug 1998 22:56:37 +1000 (EST) From: norman@nose.cs.yorku.ca Message-Id: Received: from [130.63.92.142] (csts-ip-2.cs.yorku.ca) by lion.cs.yorku.ca id 6379; Tue, 4 Aug 1998 08:55:59 Subject: PUPS, BUPS, BURPS, and other stomach upsets To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Date: Tue, 04 Aug 1998 08:55:30 -0400 Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk The recent fuss seems to me to be much overdone, mainly because of a small number of people with strong views and a restless urge to type. Here's my view, which I hold with some strength, but with little religious zeal. The top of Warren's web page about PUPS says the society is `devoted to the preservation of all information related to the versions of Unix that ran on Digital PDPs.' It seems pretty clear to me that his original intent was to collect and keep historic data, not to Promote The One True Unix nor to Support Software That We Approve Of nor to Make Money Fast. (No slur intended on those who do want to do those things.) Certainly that is the basis on which I joined the mailing list, and on which I've contributed the small amount of time I've put in. It makes sense to me that efforts to preserve post-PDP11 Unix systems be coordinated with PUPS, whether that means folding them into the same society or just having several groups that share. I would suggest that a single society (even if run as several distributed pieces) would probably be less work in the long run, and think that `UNIX Heritage Society' is a fine name. (Just plain `UNIX Society' is too broad; it sounds like a duplication of USENIX.) Those who think `heritage' and `preservation' are dirty words are, I think, missing the point; see the paragraph above. All of this is likely to involve more work for someone. I don't know just who has done what to make PUPS work, but it looks to me like the bulk of the work has fallen on Warren; certainly he did the single hardest part, that of getting things started. Those of us who think the society should do more things should be prepared to put our money, labour, and whatnot where our mouths are. In that spirit: I'm not likely to have much time to help out for the next few months, as I'm starting a new job, and just keeping my project to recover the old manuals into machine-readable form will soak up most of my spare cycles. (Apologies to all that the samples and whatnot I'd hoped to put up on the web still aren't up, by the way; winding down my present work commitments and trying to arrange a graceful startup of my new ones has taken a lot more effort than expected.) It may be possible in my new world to help out with some computing resources, e.g. a Canadian mirror of the PUPS archives; I'll try to plan for that in the already-being-planned upheaval of my new world's computing environment. If the master PUPS site is short of resources, e.g. could use another disk or two, I'd be happy to help out with some cash. I encourage others who can help out to speak up. Judging by the amount of mail that has passed through the mailing list recently (almost 5% of an RK05 by my count), there should be some spare energy out there somewhere. It may also be worth while to approach USENIX for support; preserving UNIX heritage is certainly not foreign to them, and their current president has some history of preservation work. Norman Wilson Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA19772 for pups-liszt; Wed, 5 Aug 1998 05:24:28 +1000 (EST) Received: from skatter.USask.Ca (skatter.usask.ca [128.233.14.1]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id FAA19762 for ; Wed, 5 Aug 1998 05:24:19 +1000 (EST) Received: from hydrus.USask.Ca (hydrus.usask.ca [128.233.14.27]) by skatter.USask.Ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA09338; Tue, 4 Aug 1998 13:24:13 -0600 (CST) From: Neil Johnson Received: (from neil at localhost) by hydrus.USask.Ca (8.7.2/8.7.2) id NAA16324; Tue, 4 Aug 1998 13:24:11 -0600 (CST) Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1998 13:24:11 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199808041924.NAA16324 at hydrus.USask.Ca> To: msokolov at blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu, pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: The Unix Society Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk I don't like the idea of focusing the group on versions of unix with source licences available for a number of reasons. Expensive source licences are available for new versions of unix. If the limitation is to an inexpensive hobbiest licence then a somewhat arbitrary price has to be set for inexpensive. A second, and more important objection is that we are explicitly excluding users who want to use the free PDP-11 unix binary licences. Finally, users of other vintage unixes with legal, binary only licences would be excluded. Neil Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA19830 for pups-liszt; Wed, 5 Aug 1998 05:48:32 +1000 (EST) Received: from europe.std.com (europe.std.com [199.172.62.20]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id FAA19824 for ; Wed, 5 Aug 1998 05:48:25 +1000 (EST) Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.7.6/BZS-8-1.0) id PAA07627; Tue, 4 Aug 1998 15:48:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: by world.std.com (TheWorld/Spike-2.0) id AA06220; Tue, 4 Aug 1998 15:48:07 -0400 Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1998 15:48:07 -0400 From: allisonp@world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Message-Id: <199808041948.AA06220 at world.std.com> To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: The Unix Society Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk How about a direct approach. Create UBOS, UBOS spells out to Unix Based Operating Systems. PUPs would then be a sibling as would other potential *nix based OS forums. the key is if you not sure, it goes to UBOS and from there vectored to the best fit forum. Possible sibling forums could be NIX-32 for the 32bit and NIX-16 for the other yet not defined 16bit *nix. there are also 8bit flavors and of course 64bit ones as well. No doubt I'm missing a few. Allison Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA19897 for pups-liszt; Wed, 5 Aug 1998 06:09:53 +1000 (EST) Received: from aiai.ed.ac.uk (eigg.aiai.ed.ac.uk [129.215.41.7]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id GAA19892 for ; Wed, 5 Aug 1998 06:09:47 +1000 (EST) Received: from todday.aiai.ed.ac.uk (todday.aiai.ed.ac.uk [129.215.105.40]) by aiai.ed.ac.uk (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA08847 for ; Tue, 4 Aug 1998 21:09:42 +0100 (BST) Received: (tfb at localhost) by todday.aiai.ed.ac.uk (8.6.13/8.6.12) id VAA11887; Tue, 4 Aug 1998 21:09:41 +0100 Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1998 21:09:41 +0100 Message-Id: <199808042009.VAA11887 at todday.aiai.ed.ac.uk> From: Tim Bradshaw MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: The Unix Society In-Reply-To: <9808030314.AA18496 at blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu> References: <9808030314.AA18496 at blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu> X-Mailer: VM 6.32 under 19.14 XEmacs Lucid Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk * Michael Sokolov wrote: >> Keep it to systems which require a UNIX source license, then? > Yes! No no no! This is really bad. We should not try and sit down and say who or what we exclude and who or what we include. There are hundreds of Unix and Unix-related systems that ran or run on all sorts of hardware: trying to define some arbitrary border is just bogus, and is also pretty disturbing in various respects (`you over there, you're running a 4.2BSD-derivative system with lots of non-bell/non-Berkeley code in it on something that isn't even a vax, *you* can't talk to *us* cos you're not pure enough, nah nah nah'). Let's just not stress about this stuff, and let anyone who is interested in older Unixoid systems be involved. The only logical dividing line is the 16-bit/32-bit one -- really the PDP11/bigger system one -- and even that is furry (where does 32v live, or the interdata port, or ?). It's not like the list is suddenly going to get taken over by people trying to talk about Linux or Solaris or something: those poeple have their own lists and are quite happy there. If people ask inappropriate questions they won't get answers (or will get polite pointers to ask somewhere more apropriate). As for name, I still like my own suggestion of `proper unix preservation society', though I can see there may be copyright issues. Most of all, can't we stop all this silly meta-discussion and actually talk about real interesting stuff! Here's a question I'd actually like to know the answer to: have there been ports of Unix or Unix-like systems to machines with non-power-of-2 word sizes or other `strange' (by modern standards) machines? --tim (who's running a 4.2BSD-derivative system with lots of non-bell/non-Berkeley code in it on something that isn't even a Vax. And is also on holiday, so won't be reading this stuff for a while) Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA22129 for pups-liszt; Wed, 5 Aug 1998 09:11:20 +1000 (EST) Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA22124 for ; Wed, 5 Aug 1998 09:11:16 +1000 (EST) Received: (from wkt at localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA18650 for pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Wed, 5 Aug 1998 09:11:53 +1000 (EST) From: Warren Toomey Message-Id: <199808042311.JAA18650 at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: A Decision :-) To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation) Date: Wed, 5 Aug 1998 09:11:53 +1000 (EST) Reply-To: wkt at cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk Ok, here's the decision (for now). The PUPS mailing list now has the working name: The UNIX Heritage Society. The email address will stay the same for now. The mailing list topics are controlled by its members, so feel free to chat about PDP-11 UNIX, 32-bit UNIX, Unix derived systems, your cat (well, maybe not). I'm happy for chat about systems which don't require UNIX source licences, too. Many people should set up web pages to cover their own particular interest. Mine's at http://minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au/PUPS/ Someone (me?) will set up a web page describing the charter of The UNIX Heritage Society, with pointers to everybody's web page. If the mailing list becomes too diverse, then people are free to set up other mailing lists with more restricted topics. Again, I'll add hyperlinks on the The UNIX Heritage Society web page to the mailing lists. Suggestions for a better name then `The UNIX Heritage Society' can be mailed to me :-) Suggestions for the charter of `The UNIX Heritage Society', or whatever you want to call it, can also be sent to me. I'll add hyperlinks on the The UNIX Heritage Society web page for each suggestion. I'd rather this thing be all-inclusive, rather then exclusive. At the same time, I want people to feel free to set up web/mail resources with more specific aims. For example, the PUPS web pages are going to stay unchanged. Now, as Tim suggested, let's stop going round in circles and actually get back to DOING things :-) Cheers all, Warren Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA22163 for pups-liszt; Wed, 5 Aug 1998 09:20:54 +1000 (EST) Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA22158 for ; Wed, 5 Aug 1998 09:20:51 +1000 (EST) Received: (from wkt at localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA18748 for pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Wed, 5 Aug 1998 09:21:28 +1000 (EST) From: Warren Toomey Message-Id: <199808042321.JAA18748 at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: Kirk's 4CD BSD set: status To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation) Date: Wed, 5 Aug 1998 09:21:28 +1000 (EST) Reply-To: wkt at cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk All, Kirk McKusick has updated his web page about his 4CD set of BSD releases at http://www.mckusick.com/csrg/ Status: production is delayed a further week. Unfortuntely, Kirk is just about to go off overseas for three weeks, and won't be back until the end of August. You may place your orders on his web page, but things won't start to happen until the 1st of September. Cheers all, Warren Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA22319 for pups-liszt; Wed, 5 Aug 1998 09:55:31 +1000 (EST) Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA22311 for ; Wed, 5 Aug 1998 09:55:27 +1000 (EST) Received: (from wkt at localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA18931 for pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Wed, 5 Aug 1998 09:56:04 +1000 (EST) From: Warren Toomey Message-Id: <199808042356.JAA18931 at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: TUHS web page: version #0 To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation) Date: Wed, 5 Aug 1998 09:56:04 +1000 (EST) Reply-To: wkt at cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk All, The zeroth version of a web page for this all-encompassing group thingy to cover all Unix preservation/development etc is now at: http://minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au/TUHS/ Feel free (if not compelled) to mail me with suggestions, hyperlinks, background artwork etc. Michael, would you be able to knock up a VAX UNIX web page so I could add a hyperlink to it? Thanks, Warren