From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.0 required=5.0 tests=MAILING_LIST_MULTI autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 23910 invoked from network); 29 Sep 2021 16:41:40 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (45.79.103.53) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 29 Sep 2021 16:41:40 -0000 Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id 50BA89CB07; Thu, 30 Sep 2021 02:41:37 +1000 (AEST) Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A888A9CAE4; Thu, 30 Sep 2021 02:40:30 +1000 (AEST) Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id 3181A9CAE4; Thu, 30 Sep 2021 02:40:27 +1000 (AEST) Received: from central.weird.com (unknown [198.96.117.51]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B5A809CAE3 for ; Thu, 30 Sep 2021 02:40:25 +1000 (AEST) Received: from (invalid client hostname: bind: DNS error: DNS lookup for A for 'more.local': Unknown host)more.local ((no PTR matching greeting name)d207-6-82-137.bchsia.telus.net[207.6.82.137] port=61817) by central.weird.com([198.96.117.51] port=587) via TCP with esmtp (5097 bytes) (sender: ) (ident using UNIX) id for ; Wed, 29 Sep 2021 12:40:24 -0400 (EDT) (Smail-3.2.0.122-Pre 2005-Nov-17 #78 built 2020-Mar-25) Received: from (invalid client hostname: the DNS A record (with the targegt address [10.0.1.129]) for the hostname 'more.local' does not match the expected address [10.0.1.129])more.local ((no PTR matching greeting name)xentastic.local[10.0.1.140] port=60209) by more.local([10.0.1.129] port=25) via TCP with esmtp (4591 bytes) (sender: ) id for ; Wed, 29 Sep 2021 09:40:23 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2.0.122-Pre 2005-Nov-17 #1 built 2015-Feb-17) Message-Id: Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2021 09:40:23 -0700 From: "Greg A. Woods" To: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list In-Reply-To: <20210928181016.GN18305@mcvoy.com> References: <20210731142533.69caf929@moon> <40763c2d-52ad-eb01-8bf8-85acf6fee700@case.edu> <20210928181016.GN18305@mcvoy.com> User-Agent: Wanderlust/2.15.9 (Almost Unreal) SEMI-EPG/1.14.7 (Harue) FLIM-LB/1.14.9 (=?ISO-8859-4?Q?Goj=F2?=) APEL-LB/10.8 EasyPG/1.0.0 Emacs/26.1 (x86_64--netbsd) MULE/6.0 (HANACHIRUSATO) X-Face: ; j3Eth2XV8h1Yfu*uL{<:dQ$#E[DB0gemGZJ"J#4fH*][ lz; @-iwMv_u\6uIEKR0KY"=MzoQH#CrqBN`nG_5B@rrM8,f~Gr&h5a\= List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Reply-To: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list Errors-To: tuhs-bounces@minnie.tuhs.org Sender: "TUHS" --pgp-sign-Multipart_Wed_Sep_29_09:40:04_2021-1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII At Tue, 28 Sep 2021 11:10:16 -0700, Larry McVoy wrote: Subject: Re: [TUHS] Systematic approach to command-line interfaces > > On Tue, Sep 28, 2021 at 10:46:25AM -0700, Greg A. Woods wrote: > > The "unix" nod to > > single level storage by way of mmap() suffers from horribly bad design > > and neglect. > > So what is it about mmap you don't like? Mmap() as we have it today almost completely ignores the bigger picture and the lessons that came before it. It was an add-on hack that basically said only "Oh, Yeah, we can do that too! Look at this." -- and nobody bothered to look for decades. For one it has no easy direct language support (though it is possible in C to pretend to use it directly, though the syntax often gets cumbersome). Single-level-storage was obviously designed into Multics from the beginning and from the ground up, and it was easily used in the main languages supported on Multics -- but it was just an add-on hack in Unix (that, if memory serves me correctly, was initially only poorly used in another extremely badly designed add-on hack that didn't pay any attention whatsoever to past lessons, i.e. dynamic linking. which to this day is a horror show of inefficiencies and bad hacks). I think perhaps the problem was that mmap() came too soon in a narrow sub-set of the Unix implementations that were around at the time, when many couldn't support it well (especially on 32-bit systems -- it really only becomes universally useful with either segments or 64-bit and larger address spaces). The fracturing of "unix" standards at the time didn't help either. Perhaps these "add-on hack" problems are the reason so many people think fondly of the good old Unix versions where everything was still coming from a few good minds that could work together to build a cohesive design. The add-ons were poorly done, not widely implemented, and usually incompatible with each other when they were adopted by additional implementations. -- Greg A. Woods Kelowna, BC +1 250 762-7675 RoboHack Planix, Inc. Avoncote Farms --pgp-sign-Multipart_Wed_Sep_29_09:40:04_2021-1 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: OpenPGP Digital Signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iF0EABECAB0WIQTWEnAIIlcZX4oAawJie18UwlnHhQUCYVSW6wAKCRBie18UwlnH hU7cAKDUB8HQmVnYYfysZ7zf41HeTXJpAgCdEHfScIioG6EfAjaBcDU9XLFRSwI= =YTpH -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --pgp-sign-Multipart_Wed_Sep_29_09:40:04_2021-1--