* low-end vaxen and unix
[not found] <Pine.SGI.3.95.990129133718.11015C-100000@world.std.com>
@ 1999-01-29 20:28 ` Pat Barron
0 siblings, 0 replies; 2+ messages in thread
From: Pat Barron @ 1999-01-29 20:28 UTC (permalink / raw)
As I recall, you can attach an external SCSI hard disk to a MicroVAX 2000,
and Ultrix will be able to use it, but you can't boot from it. The
Centronics expansion port really is a SCSI port, even though it was never
billed as such (and the TZK50 tape drive really is a SCSI drive, and you
can use it on other systems that have SCSI - not sure why you'd want to,
though....).
4.3BSD (and its variants) for the VAX has no SCSI support at all, so
you're out of luck if you want to use SCSI disks on a MicroVAX under 4.3.
--Pat.
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Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 16:06:28 -0500 (EST)
To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: Re: low-end vaxen and unix
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On Fri, 29 Jan 1999, Pat Barron wrote:
> As I recall, you can attach an external SCSI hard disk to a MicroVAX 2000,
> and Ultrix will be able to use it, but you can't boot from it. The
> Centronics expansion port really is a SCSI port, even though it was never
> billed as such (and the TZK50 tape drive really is a SCSI drive, and you
> can use it on other systems that have SCSI - not sure why you'd want to,
> though....).
The centronics is electrically scsi and uses the NCR scsi chip (5380) but
there is nothing in the boot-diagnostic rom that supports it save for the
TK50FA version that has an oddball device protocal. If you boot from
floppy or RDxx disk and have a driver that supports VS200 scsi properly it
can be used for expansion. There are however issues in that the hard disk
interface and the SCSI chip use the same DMA channel and it would cause
some performance degrdation.
The port however is not for centronis printer as dec used serial
interfaced printers.
> 4.3BSD (and its variants) for the VAX has no SCSI support at all, so
> you're out of luck if you want to use SCSI disks on a MicroVAX under 4.3.
>
> --Pat.
Tha is what the socalled qasijarius project is supposed to fix.
Allison
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Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 16:26:58 -0500
From: mxs46@k2.scl.cwru.edu (Michael Sokolov)
Message-Id: <199901292126.QAA04748 at skybridge.scl.cwru.edu>
To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: Re: low-end vaxen and unix
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Pat Barron <pat at transarc.com> wrote:
> As I recall, you can attach an external SCSI hard disk to a MicroVAX 2000,
> and Ultrix will be able to use it, but you can't boot from it. The
> Centronics expansion port really is a SCSI port, even though it was never
> billed as such (and the TZK50 tape drive really is a SCSI drive, and you
> can use it on other systems that have SCSI - not sure why you'd want to,
> though....).
Correct, except that since Ultrix is binary-only chainware, you would have to
disassemble and patch some of its kernel .o files in order to force is to
recognize SCSI disks. It uses the CPU code (a byte-sized number constructed
from the SID and SID extension longwords) to index into a table of pointers to
routines for different CPUs, and the routines that get called when the CPU is
KA410 (VS/MV 2000) don't bother to probe for SCSI disks. This means that any
SCSI disks you may have attached will be silently ignored, even though the
drivers are present and they would work if they weren't artificially blocked.
> 4.3BSD (and its variants) for the VAX has no SCSI support at all, so
> you're out of luck if you want to use SCSI disks on a MicroVAX under 4.3.
Adding BabyVAX support (with MFM, SCSI, LANCE, and everything) to
4.3BSD-Quasijarus is in my plans. For more information, subscribe to the
Quasijarus mailing list.
If you want to have something running now, you can either run Ultrix and learn
to live in binary-only chains, or you can construct a system consisting of the
Ultrix kernel and the 4.3BSD-Quasijarus userland. There is enough syscall
compatibility between 4.3BSD and Ultrix to make this possible.
Michael Sokolov
TUHS 4BSD Coordinator
4.3BSD-* Maintainer
Quasijarus Project Principal Architect & Developer
Phone: 440-449-0299 or 216-217-2579
ARPA Internet SMTP mail: mxs46 at k2.scl.cwru.edu
TUHS WWW page: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/TUHS/
Quasijarus WWW page: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/Quasijarus/
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Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 16:41:53 -0500
From: Thor Lancelot Simon <tls@rek.tjls.com>
To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: Re: low-end vaxen and unix
Message-ID: <19990129164152.A3563 at rek.tjls.com>
Reply-To: tls at rek.tjls.com
References: <Pine.SGI.3.95.990129133718.11015C-100000 at world.std.com> <Pine.GSO.3.96.990129150954.25336E-100000 at smithfield.transarc.com>
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On Fri, Jan 29, 1999 at 03:28:52PM -0500, Pat Barron wrote:
> As I recall, you can attach an external SCSI hard disk to a MicroVAX 2000,
> and Ultrix will be able to use it, but you can't boot from it. The
> Centronics expansion port really is a SCSI port, even though it was never
> billed as such (and the TZK50 tape drive really is a SCSI drive, and you
> can use it on other systems that have SCSI - not sure why you'd want to,
> though....).
>
> 4.3BSD (and its variants) for the VAX has no SCSI support at all, so
> you're out of luck if you want to use SCSI disks on a MicroVAX under 4.3.
As far as I recall, stock 4.3 won't run on the MV2000, 3100, etc. The
people who made it do so used the relevant source bits from Ultrix, I
think, so even with a 32V source license you're out of luck.
There is a reasonable alternative. NetBSD runs on the 2000, many 3100 models,
and even the 4000/60, which Ultrix never ran on. It will also run 4.3BSD
binaries -- in fact, in my experience, more of them than Ultrix will. I
ran Ultrix on a 3100 on my desk when I worked at DEC, and it was even odds
whether binaries I'd built on 4.3 would work correctly -- remember, Ultrix
branched from 4.2, not 4.3.
SCSI on the 2000 is supposed to work pretty well, SCSI on some 3100 models
less so; the LANCE ethernet on the older boxes and the SGEC on the 4000/60
work; a few models support graphical console on a QDSS or equivalent. For
the boxes where you're stuck with small RD series disks, shared libraries
may help a bit.
Hope this helps.
THor
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From: Ken Wellsch <kcwellsc@math.uwaterloo.ca>
Message-Id: <199901292207.RAA18899 at math.uwaterloo.ca>
Subject: Re: low-end vaxen and unix
To: allisonp at world.std.com
Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 17:07:36 -0500 (EST)
Cc: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
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On a KA410 (VAXstation 2000 etc.) the MFM controller and the NCR 5380
both do DMA to a shared 16Kb private memory buffer. You then have to
pull your data out into the regular VAXen memory. I believe the Lance
chip (ethernet) is the only DMA to main memory capable device.
-- Ken
> [...] There are however issues in that the hard disk
> interface and the SCSI chip use the same DMA channel and it would cause
> some performance degrdation. [...]
>
> Allison
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Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 17:49:42 -0500
From: mxs46@k2.scl.cwru.edu (Michael Sokolov)
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To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: Re: low-end vaxen and unix
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Thor Lancelot Simon <tls at rek.tjls.com> wrote:
> As far as I recall, stock 4.3 won't run on the MV2000, 3100, etc.
4.3BSD-Quasijarus will eventually. For now if you want to run the
4.3BSD-Quasijarus userland, run it atop of an Ultrix kernel. Will work
beautifully.
> There is a reasonable alternative. NetBSD runs on the 2000, many 3100 models,
> and even the 4000/60, which Ultrix never ran on.
A warning for naive list readers. NetBSD's definition of "runs on" means that
you have to part with all of your mass storage devices and use the bare CPU as
diskless peering-at toy.
4.3BSD-Quasijarus will eventually run on nearly every VAX ever made? When will
this happen? To speed it up, subscribe to the Quasijarus mailing list and join
our team.
> It will also run 4.3BSD
> binaries -- in fact, in my experience, more of them than Ultrix will. I
> ran Ultrix on a 3100 on my desk when I worked at DEC, and it was even odds
> whether binaries I'd built on 4.3 would work correctly -- remember, Ultrix
> branched from 4.2, not 4.3.
The fact that Ultrix originally started from 4.2 is absolutely irrelevant,
since when 4.3BSD came out, Ultrix fully caught up with it. As the principal
maintainer and software architect of 4.3BSD-*, I know this better than anyone
else, and I state authoritatively that the complete 4.3BSD-Quasijarus userland
will run perfectly atop of an Ultrix kernel.
Michael Sokolov
TUHS 4BSD Coordinator
4.3BSD-* Maintainer
Quasijarus Project Principal Architect & Developer
Phone: 440-449-0299 or 216-217-2579
ARPA Internet SMTP mail: mxs46 at k2.scl.cwru.edu
TUHS WWW page: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/TUHS/
Quasijarus WWW page: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/Quasijarus/
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Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 17:52:00 -0500
From: mxs46@k2.scl.cwru.edu (Michael Sokolov)
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To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: Re: low-end vaxen and unix
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Ken Wellsch <kcwellsc at math.uwaterloo.ca> wrote:
> On a KA410 (VAXstation 2000 etc.) the MFM controller and the NCR 5380
> both do DMA to a shared 16Kb private memory buffer. You then have to
> pull your data out into the regular VAXen memory. I believe the Lance
> chip (ethernet) is the only DMA to main memory capable device.
Correct.
Michael Sokolov
TUHS 4BSD Coordinator
4.3BSD-* Maintainer
Quasijarus Project Principal Architect & Developer
Phone: 440-449-0299 or 216-217-2579
ARPA Internet SMTP mail: mxs46 at k2.scl.cwru.edu
TUHS WWW page: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/TUHS/
Quasijarus WWW page: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/Quasijarus/
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To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: Re: low-end vaxen and unix
In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 29 Jan 1999 17:49:42 EST."
<199901292249.RAA04815 at skybridge.scl.cwru.edu>
Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 22:54:33 +0000
From: Alan F R Bain <A.F.R.Bain@dpmms.cam.ac.uk>
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Michael Sokolov wrote:
>A warning for naive list readers. NetBSD's definition of "runs on" means that
>you have to part with all of your mass storage devices and use the bare CPU as
>diskless peering-at toy.
I think this is being grossly unfair and irrelevant; the information
provided was that NetBSD was a viable alternative which is correct.
All my modern machines run NetBSD and the only non supported hardware
is a 9 track magtape drive on a sun -- I don't consider that
unreasonable as it's rather an unusal model. I don't think PUPS
is the place for OS favouritism arguments, so please desist.
>4.3BSD-Quasijarus will eventually run on nearly every VAX ever made? When will
>this happen? To speed it up, subscribe to the Quasijarus mailing list and join
>our team.
>
>> It will also run 4.3BSD
>> binaries -- in fact, in my experience, more of them than Ultrix will. I
>> ran Ultrix on a 3100 on my desk when I worked at DEC, and it was even odds
>> whether binaries I'd built on 4.3 would work correctly -- remember, Ultrix
>> branched from 4.2, not 4.3.
>
>The fact that Ultrix originally started from 4.2 is absolutely irrelevant,
>since when 4.3BSD came out, Ultrix fully caught up with it. As the principal
>maintainer and software architect of 4.3BSD-*, I know this better than anyone
>else, and I state authoritatively that the complete 4.3BSD-Quasijarus userland
I don't feel that there is any need to be silly and pretentious
here; techinical arguments may be of interest, but `I'm right and
I know I am' arguments are just childish.
To add a constructive comment, there's been a lot written about the
history and tree of development of early unix up to the SYSV
and BSD split occured, but I'm pretty unsure about the rest.
It seems that BSD2 and BSD4 developed pretty much in parallel,
the former targetting the PDP and the latter the VAX; Warren's
graphing data provide an interesting view of what happened,
but I'm unsure how closely related the two developments were
(especially in time of releases, introduction of new features
etc.). I'd be grateful if someone more knowledgable could fill
in some of the details.
Alan Bain
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Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 19:10:23 -0500
From: mxs46@k2.scl.cwru.edu (Michael Sokolov)
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To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: Re: low-end vaxen and unix
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Alan F R Bain <A.F.R.Bain at dpmms.cam.ac.uk> wrote:
> I think this is being grossly unfair and irrelevant; the information
> provided was that NetBSD was a viable alternative which is correct.
> All my modern machines run NetBSD and the only non supported hardware
> is a 9 track magtape drive on a sun -- I don't consider that
> unreasonable as it's rather an unusal model.
How is this relevant to NetBSD/vax? Remember, architectures other than VAX do
not exist as far as I am concerned, so when I say "NetBSD", I always always
always mean NetBSD/vax.
> I don't think PUPS
> is the place for OS favouritism arguments, so please desist.
It is necessary, however, to protect the innocent novice users from falling
into the claws of that predator.
> To add a constructive comment, there's been a lot written about the
> history and tree of development of early unix up to the SYSV
> and BSD split occured, but I'm pretty unsure about the rest.
> It seems that BSD2 and BSD4 developed pretty much in parallel,
> the former targetting the PDP and the latter the VAX; Warren's
> graphing data provide an interesting view of what happened,
> but I'm unsure how closely related the two developments were
> (especially in time of releases, introduction of new features
> etc.). I'd be grateful if someone more knowledgable could fill
> in some of the details.
First of all, this is absolutely irrelevant to the question of binary
compatibility between 4.2BSD, 4.3BSD, and Ultrix.
Second, the development didn't "split" into PDP-11 and VAX. Instead, the
MAINSTREAM UNIX system _CONVERTED_ from PDP-11 to VAX, and did so at AT&T,
before the torch was turned over to UC Berkeley. 2BSD was not mainstream UNIX.
In fact, it was not UNIX at all, since it didn't contain a kernel, only a
patchkit of userland enhancements. Now if you are talking about 2.xBSD, as
opposed to the real 2BSD, it is a different story altogether, and it isn't
really Berkeley Software DIstribution, since it wasn't developed at Berkeley.
2.xBSD is an unauthorized, unapproved, and unblessed side branch, and as far as
I'm concerned, it doesn't exist.
Michael Sokolov
TUHS 4BSD Coordinator
4.3BSD-* Maintainer
Quasijarus Project Principal Architect & Developer
Phone: 440-449-0299 or 216-217-2579
ARPA Internet SMTP mail: mxs46 at k2.scl.cwru.edu
TUHS WWW page: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/TUHS/
Quasijarus WWW page: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/Quasijarus/
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Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 19:50:36 -0500
From: Thor Lancelot Simon <tls@rek.tjls.com>
To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: Re: low-end vaxen and unix
Message-ID: <19990129195036.A7942 at rek.tjls.com>
Reply-To: tls at rek.tjls.com
References: <199901292249.RAA04815 at skybridge.scl.cwru.edu>
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On Fri, Jan 29, 1999 at 05:49:42PM -0500, Michael Sokolov wrote:
> Thor Lancelot Simon <tls at rek.tjls.com> wrote:
>
> > As far as I recall, stock 4.3 won't run on the MV2000, 3100, etc.
>
> 4.3BSD-Quasijarus will eventually. For now if you want to run the
> 4.3BSD-Quasijarus userland, run it atop of an Ultrix kernel. Will work
> beautifully.
>
> > There is a reasonable alternative. NetBSD runs on the 2000, many 3100 models,
> > and even the 4000/60, which Ultrix never ran on.
>
> A warning for naive list readers. NetBSD's definition of "runs on" means that
> you have to part with all of your mass storage devices and use the bare CPU as
> diskless peering-at toy.
That's nonsense. As I stated in the message to which you were purportedly
responding, NetBSD supports both SCSI and MFM (RD-series) disks on the machines
in question. It also supports MSCP disks on most systems to which they
can be attached, and TMSCP tapes; and, for the truly masochistic, last
time I tried the RL02 on my '750 worked, too.
Let me ask you once again: why do you become so combative when others simply
express technical opinions (or, in this case, state facts) with which you
happen to disagree?
Are you actively _trying_ to disrupt this list just so that nobody can
mention the word "NetBSD" on it for fear of being flamed?
Thor
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From: Warren Toomey <wkt@henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>
Message-Id: <199901300109.MAA09808 at henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>
Subject: Re: low-end vaxen and unix
In-Reply-To: <19990129195036.A7942 at rek.tjls.com> from Thor Lancelot Simon at "Jan 29, 1999 7:50:36 pm"
To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (Unix Heritage Society)
Date: Sat, 30 Jan 1999 12:09:36 +1100 (EST)
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In article by Thor Lancelot Simon:
> On Fri, Jan 29, 1999 at 05:49:42PM -0500, Michael Sokolov wrote:
>> A warning for naive list readers. NetBSD's definition of "runs on" means that
>>you have to part with all of your mass storage devices and use the bare CPU as
> > diskless peering-at toy.
>
> That's nonsense. As I stated in the message to which you were purportedly
> responding, NetBSD supports both SCSI and MFM (RD-series) disks on the machines
> in question. It also supports MSCP disks on most systems to which they
> can be attached, and TMSCP tapes; and, for the truly masochistic, last
> time I tried the RL02 on my '750 worked, too.
>
> Let me ask you once again: why do you become so combative when others simply
> express technical opinions (or, in this case, state facts) with which you
> happen to disagree?
>
> Are you actively _trying_ to disrupt this list just so that nobody can
> mention the word "NetBSD" on it for fear of being flamed?
> Thor
Ok, this is a warning to anybody who posts a reply to the thread above
in the mailing list. If you say something which is religious, zealous
or inflammatory, then I will issue a warning to you in the list. 2nd
time I issue a warning, I will start to moderate your postings.
This whole issue is like Linux vs. FreeBSD. The BEST answer to the
question: which is the best? is to get the user to try both out, and
they can make their own choice. As several people have explained, the
choice is a combination of technical issues AND aesthetics. And we all
have different tastes.
So respect each others tastes, and don't hassle them.
Warren
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From: Warren Toomey <wkt@henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>
Message-Id: <199901300121.MAA09827 at henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>
Subject: Is 2.xBSD `approved'?
In-Reply-To: <199901300010.TAA04883 at skybridge.scl.cwru.edu> from Michael Sokolov at "Jan 29, 1999 7:10:23 pm"
To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (Unix Heritage Society)
Date: Sat, 30 Jan 1999 12:21:28 +1100 (EST)
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In article by Michael Sokolov:
> Now if you are talking about 2.xBSD, as
> opposed to the real 2BSD, it is a different story altogether, and it isn't
> really Berkeley Software DIstribution, since it wasn't developed at Berkeley.
>2.xBSD is an unauthorized, unapproved, and unblessed side branch, and as far as
> I'm concerned, it doesn't exist.
I hate to say this, but 2.xBSD, where x was 8, 9 and 10, was developed with
the involvement of several people at the CSRG, e.g Keith Bostic, Mike Karels,
Kirk McKusick. I'm sure Steven Schultz could give me some more names.
Although 2.xBSD is definitely not the branch which got the most attention,
I wouldn't say it was unauthorised, unapproved nor unblessed.
Actually, given that the CSRG is now disbanded, it is fair to say that
both 2.11BSD and 4.3-Quasijarus are in exactly the same boat: side branches
of the main BSD development, maintained by individuals who were not members
of the original CSRG.
Now, let us return to the more important issue of helping each other out,
rather than getting at each other. All UNIXes are worthy topics, and do
not deserve ridicule.
Warren
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From: norman@nose.cita.utoronto.ca
Message-Id: <199901301539.CAA20265 at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>
Subject: Old UNIX file system formats
To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Date: Sat, 30 Jan 1999 10:38:44 -0500
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I've assembled some notes from old manuals and other sources
on the formats used for on-disk file systems through the
Seventh Edition:
http://www.cita.utoronto.ca/~norman/old-unix/old-fs.html
Additional notes, comments on style, and whatnot are welcome.
(It may be sensible to send anything in the last two categories
directly to me, rather than to the whole list.)
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