From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.2 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_SIGNED,DKIM_VALID, DKIM_VALID_AU,DKIM_VALID_EF,MAILING_LIST_MULTI,T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (minnie.tuhs.org [50.116.15.146]) by inbox.vuxu.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B808328151 for ; Wed, 5 Jun 2024 19:35:21 +0200 (CEST) Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ADADE43259; Thu, 6 Jun 2024 03:35:16 +1000 (AEST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=tuhs.org; s=dkim; t=1717608916; h=from:from:reply-to:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date: message-id:message-id:to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version: content-type:content-type: content-transfer-encoding:content-transfer-encoding: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references:list-id:list-help: list-owner:list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe:list-post; bh=QDc8Gu62Nt4hj19SGXqxK0mcgFQs6fdu4cwPFDlpCJs=; b=TsqZoZYWJEzBZP2pT+a7KouFaT/sfXosOnoKyoQHTO9HXEqvZ/C4aQmNLYFJTj1qt4xAy3 mCxCtPnPsiICalvVXIkHvGRodCrEiUWFZdhXA5urGoSxfp7ZGLyJQ7j/3lBQ0iUITtDAya N95fC9HCWbi+UE13DDqu0DpUvtBTCzc= Received: from mail-40135.protonmail.ch (mail-40135.protonmail.ch [185.70.40.135]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 697CA43251 for ; Thu, 6 Jun 2024 03:35:04 +1000 (AEST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=protonmail.com; s=protonmail3; t=1717608901; x=1717868101; bh=QDc8Gu62Nt4hj19SGXqxK0mcgFQs6fdu4cwPFDlpCJs=; h=Date:To:From:Cc:Subject:Message-ID:In-Reply-To:References: Feedback-ID:From:To:Cc:Date:Subject:Reply-To:Feedback-ID: Message-ID:BIMI-Selector; b=gOChp2Y+CT5BqV1qaqMZMt7hJptckd/6fsNP9ZeT/upk+9RDuyxO4fhhQ01pT737T BMLzC7ldgBwwuL+ZVVASWG9c93Es7MbUUmTHY1sS8JHTTt0H7+Mjwk6vN4TsZnkGAv rq/ItKeQa/hoKZvf9agceK5LyqbVbMv4iyHeMjg0LZyLi+4yPiIvX164qt++SDBlXs o2JvQLEdure0fGNB6EFI2Bkdkx+dPPWzqMxk1TAOizlylm1lgAOHaB42bsqDAIuKT2 OyFGnMhNngpTqXNHWiMUk1UvgvgIXarCtNr2UnRzIJ7rdB2QRjegE76ghvH+vCIEhs AwjFja2GPuxCA== Date: Wed, 05 Jun 2024 17:34:58 +0000 To: Andrew Lynch Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <1324869037.1755756.1717582639424@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1324869037.1755756.1717582639424.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1324869037.1755756.1717582639424@mail.yahoo.com> Feedback-ID: 35591162:user:proton X-Pm-Message-ID: 5998380f8d9c4dd6ee28f753da7991759996e30b MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-ID-Hash: OQMUQ337K4RJTCJDKEZQVSY24XLP2SF4 X-Message-ID-Hash: OQMUQ337K4RJTCJDKEZQVSY24XLP2SF4 X-MailFrom: segaloco@protonmail.com X-Mailman-Rule-Misses: dmarc-mitigation; no-senders; approved; emergency; loop; banned-address; member-moderation; nonmember-moderation; administrivia; implicit-dest; max-recipients; max-size; news-moderation; no-subject; digests; suspicious-header CC: TUHS Main List X-Mailman-Version: 3.3.6b1 Precedence: list Subject: [TUHS] Re: most direct Unix descendant List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list Archived-At: List-Archive: List-Help: List-Owner: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: From: segaloco via TUHS Reply-To: segaloco On Wednesday, June 5th, 2024 at 3:17 AM, Andrew Lynch via TUHS wrote: > Hi >=20 > Out of curiosity, what would be considered the most direct descendent of = Unix available today? > > ... >=20 > Thanks, Andrew Lynch I don't think this question has one correct answer, rather, it really depen= ds on your definition of purity. My two cents: >From a purely source code perspective, much of System V and its kin can be = traced back to the Research implementations of various bits. Between V7 an= d V8, Research incorporated a fair deal of BSD, but at a time prior to the = majority of BSD being reimplemented as unencumbered source code, so in many= parts of the codebase, the actual source still very much was descended fro= m V7, just with some BSD "accent" incorporated. To me one of the most nota= ble userland divergences in the commercial stream is the init system, what = with commercial UNIX aligning more with what is seen in CB (and allegedly U= SG Program Generic 3, but I have no direct proof, just speculation based on= alleged manpages.) In any case, if you did a huge diff of the source code between say V7 and S= VR4, you would likely find a fair deal of commonality, especially in userla= nd. Taking an alternate viewpoint, BSD, while entirely rewritten, strove for fu= nctional compatibility with the bits that were being replaced, and in many = ways BSD "behaved" more like Research, in reality and in "spirit". Again u= sing the init system as an example, to this day the BSDs use an init system= much closer to Research init than USGs run-level system. BSD also shows u= p in many more UNIX "places" than System V does. Indeed primarily System V= distributions over time incorporate aspects of BSD due to their proliferat= ion elsewhere in the UNIX world, much more than commercial backflow in the = other direction. Given this, my humble opinion (which again this sort of thing I believe is = largely a philosophical matter of opinion...) is that the BSD line captures= the spirit of Research UNIX much more than System V does, while System V r= etains much more of the source code lineage of what most folks would consid= er a "pure" UNIX. Of course all of this too is predicated on treating V7 (= really 32V...) as that central point of divergence. Good luck in your quest to find the answer to this question. I suspect it = has no concrete answer and rather is one of those more philosophical quanda= ries that makes UNIX something worth pondering on this level. That all sai= d, eventually I intend via my mandiff project to determine which of the thr= ee "last" historic UNIX manuals (SVR4, 4.4BSD, V10) has the highest parity = with V7 literature, and similar work has been attempted via source code (D.= Spinellis git repo[1]), so if that sort of quantitative analysis is more y= our cup of tea, then it may be possible to boil it down to ratios of "is an= d isn't V7" in codebases...but that sort of thing doesn't paint the full pi= cture. That and the linked git repo doesn't incorporate System V for legal= reasons...a bridge I haven't had to cross yet as I'm between V6 and V7 on = my own analysis presently. One last disclaimer as I know this question can also stir up matters of pri= de, this is all opinion, and I think only can be opinion at this point, but= my opinion is also only based on observations from afar. I wasn't a key p= layer in this stuff, those folks' thoughts carry much more weight than mine= do, but I also suspect, like good parents, folks with more heft to their i= nvolvement in things know the value in not playing favorites and letting th= eir issue stand on their own. - Matt G. P.S. Can you tell this is one of my favorite questions to ponder :) [1] - https://github.com/dspinellis/unix-history-repo/branches/all?page=3D9