From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.2 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_SIGNED,DKIM_VALID, DKIM_VALID_AU,DKIM_VALID_EF,MAILING_LIST_MULTI,T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (minnie.tuhs.org [IPv6:2600:3c01:e000:146::1]) by inbox.vuxu.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6BFB222174 for ; Tue, 18 Jun 2024 06:53:12 +0200 (CEST) Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 046AB436C3; Tue, 18 Jun 2024 14:53:06 +1000 (AEST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=tuhs.org; s=dkim; t=1718686386; h=from:from:reply-to:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date: message-id:message-id:to:to:cc:mime-version:mime-version: content-type:content-type: content-transfer-encoding:content-transfer-encoding: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references:list-id:list-help: list-owner:list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe:list-post; bh=SoWHOryMreNXrIE+vph60EkHyVsMfMrSAeUFN1ia7NA=; b=DlX2rpqtdROgNzc6A76gzy78OqmXqCAW8D/9U3/qqY5BJhu1bSVDW0JazO5HZhnHelQMQU CuUzVIpAsSfGGq9VaZ25X1Ts3fCIupFE7szk7nN19qwuBKQRybOZI2QjN7ctd37UTtBagh 67sx+V3Tm+YfTXmcm9OsLBceREcmK4Q= Received: from mail-40135.protonmail.ch (mail-40135.protonmail.ch [185.70.40.135]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 11EA8436B1 for ; Tue, 18 Jun 2024 14:52:58 +1000 (AEST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=protonmail.com; s=protonmail3; t=1718686375; x=1718945575; bh=SoWHOryMreNXrIE+vph60EkHyVsMfMrSAeUFN1ia7NA=; h=Date:To:From:Subject:Message-ID:In-Reply-To:References: Feedback-ID:From:To:Cc:Date:Subject:Reply-To:Feedback-ID: Message-ID:BIMI-Selector; b=AX9RecITUE3lQvziN8fjE+NmfJ1tg1lEnxXDUcnFb6kmKwe081cxnlMWuPIXSLdVa JhOIBINzS3oC6dxga6qga9KNEfveZBzvK817QFd8s+/BEsc3kjvnJEY9Ur87p3kAsV UgjWGu1uHlS2XaWNGAofsta6idwutXiYPWqAp6f4eT3xzg44fckb6M54mSr2CYPO4e fk0S/SSP7BceCX2w9KrvdfdGR5pytYs0RDcEr8abCgh4BzQUyKQZMT/QsT/kB5ESsa eH1ccXqpj1GDYysrCW8PYsUcL2K/oM443+MYvaKv/z6Ltt0PdDoZRCLCUQuROcuBq0 InV2ZYtGhFKpg== Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2024 04:52:51 +0000 To: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society Message-ID: In-Reply-To: References: <87msnl4ew0.fsf@gmail.com> <87iky84c23.fsf@gmail.com> <20240617012531.GE12821@mcvoy.com> <0e6792ed-65b0-e2e1-8159-6426a7f15a8d@riddermarkfarm.ca> Feedback-ID: 35591162:user:proton X-Pm-Message-ID: 2a58408b2050674d2e287d11256fd485d949a8ad MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-ID-Hash: FR2DTMUPUPWNS4T6ZRVWQSZKUND5VMDJ X-Message-ID-Hash: FR2DTMUPUPWNS4T6ZRVWQSZKUND5VMDJ X-MailFrom: segaloco@protonmail.com X-Mailman-Rule-Misses: dmarc-mitigation; no-senders; approved; emergency; loop; banned-address; member-moderation; nonmember-moderation; administrivia; implicit-dest; max-recipients; max-size; news-moderation; no-subject; digests; suspicious-header X-Mailman-Version: 3.3.6b1 Precedence: list Subject: [TUHS] Re: Version 256 of systemd boasts '42% less Unix philosophy' The Register List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list Archived-At: List-Archive: List-Help: List-Owner: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: From: segaloco via TUHS Reply-To: segaloco On Monday, June 17th, 2024 at 6:51 PM, Steve Nickolas w= rote: > On Sun, 16 Jun 2024, Greg A. Woods wrote: >=20 > > At Mon, 17 Jun 2024 18:34:06 -0400 (EDT), Steve Nickolas usotsuki@buric= .co wrote: > >=20 > > Well, to be pedantic "dash" was a direct descendant of NetBSD's /bin/sh= , > > which in turn was the shell from 4.4BSD, which was of course originally > > Kenneth Almquist's Ash. Quite a few changes were made to the shell in > > BSD between the time it was imported (1991), and the 4.4 release (1995)= . > >=20 > > Unfortunately Dash now lags very far behind NetBSD's /bin/sh code. > >=20 > > If they had just kept it as a port of the upstream code and continued t= o > > update it from upstream then "they" would now have a much better shell > > (as much development has occurred in NetBSD since 1997), but no it's a > > full-on fork that's basically ignored its upstream parent since day one= . > > It is doomed now to need fixes for the same bugs again, often in > > incompatible ways, and probably inevitably new features will be added t= o > > it, also in incompatible ways. >=20 >=20 > It's still possible to port NetBSD's /bin/sh to Debian (I've done it, > called it "nash", but don't have any official release because I don't > really see a point). >=20 > And it's basically the "sh" I'm currently using in my projects because I > don't have the talent to write my own. :P >=20 > -uso. Dash is my go-to /bin/sh on minimal Linux systems I prepare owing to its si= milar minimalism. I've considered that angle and hearing of your success h= as me tempted to pursue something along those lines. There are projects ou= t there that have propped up a BSD userland over the Linux kernel too. I'v= e not really tinkered with such things myself but I wonder if, given enough= time, such a combo could gain more traction or fill a want/need not being = met otherwise? Technically it's another way for Linux-sans-systemd. Systemd does seem to cover a diverse spread of use-cases, some better than = others. For a personal system, it feels a bit much, but many folks have ma= de valid points, particularly regarding systems you create and walk away fr= om. I think of things so often from the interactive, personal system angle, but= many systems don't have one person sitting at them with a handful of xterm= s open. I imagine the Linux world is steered a bit more in the server and = enterprise directions as far as there is money to be made, naturally. Upst= ream wants to satisfy this crowd so personal user systems dip into the same= systemd pool. My only major concern still is a sort of homogenization of the Linux userla= nd, the same as exists in the marriage of Linux and GNU. Much of the softw= are out there assumes if you'd got a Linux kernel, you've a GNU C library a= nd some supporting bits, and vice versa. That's not to diminish the real h= elp of things like autotools and CMake, but if someone is liable to use a n= on-portable thing, it's probably a GNU extension or Linux-ism. This isn't = critique of either or, rather, the weight of their combined influence. If = systemd gains comparable eminence in the overwhelming majority of Linux dis= tros to the GNU C library itself, similarly one will find themselves with d= aemons that may only behave themselves under systemd's piercing gaze. Maybe it's only natural, systemd does seem to satisfy the needs of more tha= n it offends. They can't take my sysvinit away from me though. It "just w= orks" but my needs are also narrow. - Matt G.