patch to add mailing list to website

patch to add mailing list to website

['Caleb M.' via voidlinux]

Here is a patch to link to the mailing list from the "Join Us" section
of the website.  It also removes the "Forum" heading on the nav bar.

I hope this is a good format to submit a patch; let me know if I should
do anything different.

-- Caleb


diff --git a/_layouts/default.html b/_layouts/default.html
index 320e7da..79dae99 100644
--- a/_layouts/default.html
+++ b/_layouts/default.html
@@ -34,7 +34,6 @@
 						<li><a href="/download/">Download</a></li>
 						<li><a href="/packages/">Packages</a></li>
 						<li><a href="https://docs.voidlinux.org">Documentation</a></li>
-						<li><a href="https://reddit.com/r/voidlinux">Forum</a></li>
 						<li><a href="/contribute/">Join Us</a></li>
 						<li><a href="https://github.com/void-linux">GitHub</a></li>
 					</ul>
diff --git a/contribute/index.markdown b/contribute/index.markdown
index 4f175a0..f603ed6 100644
--- a/contribute/index.markdown
+++ b/contribute/index.markdown
@@ -9,4 +9,10 @@ To help with adding or updating Void packages, start by visiting [CONTRIBUTING](
 
 To help with adding or updating [the documentation](https://docs.voidlinux.org/), start by visiting [this section of the Void Handbook](https://docs.voidlinux.org/contributing/void-docs/index.html).
 
-If you have any questions, ask them via IRC in [#voidlinux](ircs://irc.freenode.net/#voidlinux) on irc.freenode.net, or in [the forum](https://www.reddit.com/r/voidlinux).
+For community support and discussion:
+
+- **IRC**: [#voidlinux](ircs://irc.freenode.net/#voidlinux) on irc.freenode.net
+- **Mailing list**: [voidlinux Google Group](https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/voidlinux)
+	- You may subscribe by sending an email to [voidlinux+subscribe@googlegroups.com](mailto:voidlinux+subscribe@googlegroups.com).
+	- Archives may be found [here](https://inbox.vuxu.org/voidlinux/).
+- **Subreddit**: [/r/voidlinux](https://www.reddit.com/r/voidlinux)

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Re: patch to add mailing list to website

[Alexis]

'Caleb M.' via voidlinux <voidlinux@googlegroups.com> writes:

> It also removes the "Forum" heading on the nav bar.

Sorry, i don't understand why you'd do that? That's a link to the 
r/voidlinux subreddit, which is thriving, and which is one of the 
two primary places we suggest people ask for help (the other being 
#voidlinux on Freenode). This mailing list has been inactive for a 
while.

More generally, though, the best thing to do would probably be to 
submit your patch in the form of a PR to 
https://github.com/void-linux/void-linux.github.io/.


Alexis.

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Re: patch to add mailing list to website

['Caleb M.' via voidlinux]

On Friday, July 3, 2020 1:18:26 AM EDT, Alexis wrote:
>> It also removes the "Forum" heading on the nav bar.
>
> Sorry, i don't understand why you'd do that? That's a link to
> the r/voidlinux subreddit, which is thriving, and which is one
> of the two primary places we suggest people ask for help (the
> other being #voidlinux on Freenode). This mailing list has been
> inactive for a while.

It made sense to have a "Forum" heading back when it was Discourse,
because it was hosted by the project and felt more like part of the
website.

When the "Forum" heading started linking to the subreddit it seemed
weird to me because the subreddit is not part of the site, and most
people would call it a subreddit rather than a forum.

If we are linking to the mailing list from the website, it feels even
more weird to leave the heading there.  If we are adopting a more
expansive definition of the word "forum" that includes the subreddit,
then the google group is a forum too.  At that point the "Forum"
heading is more confusing than helpful, in my opinion.

The inactivity of the mailing list could be due to the lack of any
mention of it on the website, or the fact that you and others don't
point people to it.  It sounds like some members of the community
have decided the mailing list is dead, while some are still suggesting
it as a place to ask for help and submit patches.  Perhaps we should
have a broader discussion about whether the mailing list is an
official communication channel?

At any rate, it's not all that important, but I hope I have conveyed
why I think the Forum heading is increasingly misplaced.

> More generally, though, the best thing to do would probably be
> to submit your patch in the form of a PR to
> https://github.com/void-linux/void-linux.github.io/.

I don't have a GitHub account, and a few people on IRC have said
the project will accept patches via the mailing list.  I hope that
is still true.

Regards,
Caleb

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Re: patch to add mailing list to website

[Alexis]

Caleb M. <cm@sdf.org> writes:

> It made sense to have a "Forum" heading back when it was 
> Discourse,
> because it was hosted by the project and felt more like part of 
> the
> website.
>
> When the "Forum" heading started linking to the subreddit it 
> seemed
> weird to me because the subreddit is not part of the site, and 
> most
> people would call it a subreddit rather than a forum.
>
> If we are linking to the mailing list from the website, it feels 
> even
> more weird to leave the heading there.  If we are adopting a 
> more
> expansive definition of the word "forum" that includes the 
> subreddit,
> then the google group is a forum too.  At that point the "Forum"
> heading is more confusing than helpful, in my opinion.

Okay. Certainly my experience is that many people seem to have a 
very specific idea of what a "forum" is, so i take your points in 
that regard. On that basis, the use of the word "forum" on the 
"Join Us" page should also be changed, to e.g. "... or on the 
r/voidlinux subreddit".

> The inactivity of the mailing list could be due to the lack of 
> any
> mention of it on the website, or the fact that you and others 
> don't
> point people to it.

When i started using Void last year, the mailing list was 
mentioned in a few different places, and so i immediately joined 
it. Despite the fact that the mailing list /was/ being mentioned, 
i found that people weren't using it. Which doesn't surprise me - 
although i prefer mailing lists, it seems many people nowadays 
really don't like using them. So i'm not sure that the inactivity 
of the mailing list is primarily due to it not being mentioned.

> It sounds like some members of the community
> have decided the mailing list is dead, while some are still 
> suggesting
> it as a place to ask for help and submit patches.  Perhaps we 
> should
> have a broader discussion about whether the mailing list is an
> official communication channel?

Yes, i agree it would be good to be clear on this, as i raised 
this issue myself here:

https://github.com/void-linux/void-docs/issues/337#issuecomment-649899928

If it's decided that the mailing list is still an official 
communication channel, then it should certainly be mentioned on 
the "Join Us" page.

> I don't have a GitHub account, and a few people on IRC have said
> the project will accept patches via the mailing list.  I hope 
> that
> is still true.

i don't have a commit bit for that particular repo, so it's up to 
those who do. :-)

W.r.t. the void-docs repo, for which i /do/ have a commit bit, i 
am personally happy to take contributions in a variety of forms: 
not only diffs, but also comments (either here or on r/voidlinux) 
which simply describe the suggested changes.


Alexis.

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Re: patch to add mailing list to website

['Quentin Rameau' via voidlinux]

> > The inactivity of the mailing list could be due to the lack of 
> > any
> > mention of it on the website, or the fact that you and others 
> > don't
> > point people to it.
> 
> When i started using Void last year, the mailing list was 
> mentioned in a few different places, and so i immediately joined 
> it. Despite the fact that the mailing list /was/ being mentioned, 
> i found that people weren't using it. Which doesn't surprise me - 
> although i prefer mailing lists, it seems many people nowadays 
> really don't like using them. So i'm not sure that the inactivity 
> of the mailing list is primarily due to it not being mentioned.
> 
> > It sounds like some members of the community
> > have decided the mailing list is dead, while some are still 
> > suggesting
> > it as a place to ask for help and submit patches.  Perhaps we 
> > should
> > have a broader discussion about whether the mailing list is an
> > official communication channel?
> 
> Yes, i agree it would be good to be clear on this, as i raised 
> this issue myself here:
> 
> https://github.com/void-linux/void-docs/issues/337#issuecomment-649899928
> 
> If it's decided that the mailing list is still an official 
> communication channel, then it should certainly be mentioned on 
> the "Join Us" page.

Another point is that most people systematically advertise github
company (like we saw here) as a communication tool in opposition to the
mailing list.

Also, the incentive of some void developers is to centralize data in a
single place, like what is the github model, one plateform to rule them
all.

There is also this argument that this would close the door to the github
crowd (ie: those who supposedly would not be able to use a mailing
because it's more complicated than a web interface).

Finding the mailing is hard, at this moment the only mention of it is
“We also maintain a mailing list which you can find on the website” but
I wasn't actually able to find it, the only mention of it seems to be
on the deprecated and unlinked wiki.

So, in the end, the lack of willingness from the main developers to
using the mailing list, plus the lack of advertisement about it surely
makes it hard for people to come (back) to it.

Also maybe that is true that the majority of void users are github-bound
users, but that doesn't mean there aren't others.

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Re: patch to add mailing list to website

[Đoàn Trần Công Danh]

On 2020-07-12 11:09:06+0200, 'Quentin Rameau' via voidlinux <voidlinux@googlegroups.com> wrote:
> > > The inactivity of the mailing list could be due to the lack of 
> > > any
> > > mention of it on the website, or the fact that you and others 
> > > don't
> > > point people to it.
> > 
> > When i started using Void last year, the mailing list was 
> > mentioned in a few different places, and so i immediately joined 
> > it. Despite the fact that the mailing list /was/ being mentioned, 
> > i found that people weren't using it. Which doesn't surprise me - 
> > although i prefer mailing lists, it seems many people nowadays 
> > really don't like using them. So i'm not sure that the inactivity 
> > of the mailing list is primarily due to it not being mentioned.
> > 
> > > It sounds like some members of the community
> > > have decided the mailing list is dead, while some are still 
> > > suggesting
> > > it as a place to ask for help and submit patches.  Perhaps we 
> > > should
> > > have a broader discussion about whether the mailing list is an
> > > official communication channel?
> > 
> > Yes, i agree it would be good to be clear on this, as i raised 
> > this issue myself here:
> > 
> > https://github.com/void-linux/void-docs/issues/337#issuecomment-649899928
> > 
> > If it's decided that the mailing list is still an official 
> > communication channel, then it should certainly be mentioned on 
> > the "Join Us" page.
> 
> Another point is that most people systematically advertise github
> company (like we saw here) as a communication tool in opposition to the
> mailing list.
> 
> Also, the incentive of some void developers is to centralize data in a
> single place, like what is the github model, one plateform to rule them
> all.
> 
> There is also this argument that this would close the door to the github
> crowd (ie: those who supposedly would not be able to use a mailing
> because it's more complicated than a web interface).
> 
> Finding the mailing is hard, at this moment the only mention of it is
> “We also maintain a mailing list which you can find on the website” but
> I wasn't actually able to find it, the only mention of it seems to be
> on the deprecated and unlinked wiki.

I couldn't find this mailing list until 1 or 2 weeks ago.
Until someone pasted a link to ml archive in IRC.
I really prefer ml over GitHub for the quoting and thread-like
discussion.

> So, in the end, the lack of willingness from the main developers to
> using the mailing list, plus the lack of advertisement about it surely
> makes it hard for people to come (back) to it.

I think there's another point that can help boost the usage of mailing
list: better web interface to archive of mailing list. Right now,
I think public-inbox is ideal for this purpose, simple interface with
no javascript, clonable (so anyone that was late to the party can have
an offline copy to search), leah2 is maintaining one such archive,
and I think it's worth to move it into voidlinux.org

> Also maybe that is true that the majority of void users are github-bound
> users, but that doesn't mean there aren't others.

-- 
Danh aka sgn

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Re: patch to add mailing list to website

['Caleb M.' via voidlinux]

I spoke on IRC with maldridge, who has commit access to the website repo.
He would prefer not to link to the mailing list at this time, citing low
readership and limited developer capacity.

-- Caleb

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Re: patch to add mailing list to website

['Quentin Rameau' via voidlinux]

> I spoke on IRC with maldridge, who has commit access to the website repo.
> He would prefer not to link to the mailing list at this time, citing low
> readership and limited developer capacity.

The “low readership” is a self-made argument, if you tell people not to
use the mailing list, there will be low readership...

Anyway, thanks for trying again, Caleb, seems like void management
disdain regarding mailing hasn't improved during the past few years.

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Re: patch to add mailing list to website

[Juan Romero Pardines]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1528 bytes --]

I'm xtraeme. I create this mailing list many years ago... This is the only
thing they could not take me. Anyway. This is the official mailing list for
voidlinux. Enjoy

El mar., 21 jul. 2020 22:50, 'Quentin Rameau' via voidlinux <
voidlinux@googlegroups.com> escribió:

> > I spoke on IRC with maldridge, who has commit access to the website repo.
> > He would prefer not to link to the mailing list at this time, citing low
> > readership and limited developer capacity.
>
> The “low readership” is a self-made argument, if you tell people not to
> use the mailing list, there will be low readership...
>
> Anyway, thanks for trying again, Caleb, seems like void management
> disdain regarding mailing hasn't improved during the past few years.
>
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> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/voidlinux/20200721225019.1a812af3%40fifth.space
> .
>

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