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dmarc=pass header.from=gmail.com; arc=none Received: from mail-ej1-f54.google.com ([209.85.218.54]:40858) by zero.zsh.org with esmtps (TLS1.3:TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) id 1oU1G2-000F7I-IA; Fri, 02 Sep 2022 07:38:31 +0000 Received: by mail-ej1-f54.google.com with SMTP id qh18so2145539ejb.7; Fri, 02 Sep 2022 00:38:30 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=content-transfer-encoding:cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from :in-reply-to:references:mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date; bh=w74jnlinxQrQyUnTyoSnIz3aC0c6wQ8hC0DqxtvCJhI=; b=CEJG1PuZesb0pKvVRKP6PFx66M18glTIMMLYwu5xZaEot1gy+bbv2asdTrGwC207ZI lGmxyhDhljfgimXiXrUwN1FjQOLU9xyXSBS/ubrOZR3K92L3EMzQXfG0N/73/62kUZF3 pfMjfSs9i/i4w7ZxWGpB5Zk8oBL8jH8NEZu9mXpF0yMkoCzi3rd0NNd3OJHNDWN393et djBi5OzpdUuaMKuN3yvCEoDJKqmlNeMcdZVSWQBRTt9UnOxzqIvVNba0YLckeTrDomK3 gvG4Ov+IPKMMJa+BdpMZRamM6jpd20rJzfPrLQ3Z7fR6bQZPy8DixlND7Bb+ds35cp8i GKhg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=content-transfer-encoding:cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from :in-reply-to:references:mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc :subject:date; bh=w74jnlinxQrQyUnTyoSnIz3aC0c6wQ8hC0DqxtvCJhI=; b=MtQ3dh1LnwgqKxHnzyFMQIf27ULTuHRHKoi4MDQkiJCvuYfhPH8M+RjnRQHuBoOTua /AsBPW3s9g6emawnSCf4gAc5JdNNc7/pBc/DfvMtrX3ebmZw5kYcZ1TC12gLL+X4ZqmF YqTg+5vOh8A9fgJrMc0U7O/aT0wVwau5Ni1uw4xgQ292mDCC8efx/P4beeyWCFlOpsu8 SclEjk64LEjYpbPPm+qEcvc8Nas+nkvmRGjRfsg4AlIq8b1DgJMkkgWHzo4+2+D54ALL Sr6j8gWslwqnksduQ/GCXjjHDKzEx0GWdCLgtQ2iYyGh41BjoMsmjSt12jeieG53TanH HLEA== X-Gm-Message-State: ACgBeo2luVXo6LLFib0i9lmqrkKOldEiIqkgxv2KlZ6ukSQ6cVVXyXtl XFVmGs8sPdkubugW5BcYmNMBj1+HDn/oBzW5IzJplCp5FbfAWA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AA6agR6qMWVOjN1V+y7Bj44B4PEvrRB7TGTVsPr+QeCNztv3F/HT5N73KBXA+YwqKeGnNxR86J0vA1E8UriCom0cNoY= X-Received: by 2002:a17:907:94c7:b0:730:d5bc:14c with SMTP id dn7-20020a17090794c700b00730d5bc014cmr27144846ejc.68.1662104309798; Fri, 02 Sep 2022 00:38:29 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <0e8bc96d-17a7-4be2-afab-7a0fd827866f@www.fastmail.com> <5141de6b-dbee-4d4b-3b74-d95a671fa04e@luffy.cx> <33d0bd1a-4da7-416d-a92a-04ceb07d1107@www.fastmail.com> <1c9b6072-26e7-467e-b8cc-7d44f15eaf1b@www.fastmail.com> <9116efd4-7c88-4ea3-9601-9c522236fee7@www.fastmail.com> <20220831092831.GA992100@zira.vinc17.org> <2a3b5ac0-f4f8-4c14-835a-c3d31db6d4fb@www.fastmail.com> <962d44b9-a3e3-4979-b951-feac4cf5bb8d@www.fastmail.com> In-Reply-To: <962d44b9-a3e3-4979-b951-feac4cf5bb8d@www.fastmail.com> From: Felipe Contreras Date: Fri, 2 Sep 2022 02:38:17 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Most minimal configuration challenge To: =?UTF-8?Q?Lawrence_Vel=C3=A1zquez?= Cc: Ray Andrews , zsh-users@zsh.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Seq: 28028 Archived-At: X-Loop: zsh-users@zsh.org Errors-To: zsh-users-owner@zsh.org Precedence: list Precedence: bulk Sender: zsh-users-request@zsh.org X-no-archive: yes List-Id: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: List-Post: List-Owner: List-Archive: On Fri, Sep 2, 2022 at 12:41 AM Lawrence Vel=C3=A1zquez wr= ote: > On Thu, Sep 1, 2022, at 9:49 PM, Felipe Contreras wrote: > > On Thu, Sep 1, 2022 at 8:27 PM Lawrence Vel=C3=A1zquez = wrote: > >> On Wed, Aug 31, 2022, at 10:17 AM, Ray Andrews wrote: > >> > Only people who have just now learned something can > >> > explain it in a way that other people who want to learn it can relat= e to > >> > because > >> > only the learner has the mind of a learner. > >> > >> Someone who has "just now learned something" has the shallowest > >> possible understanding of it and can only perpetuate that shallow > >> understanding. > > > > That is not quite true. Yes, the vast majority of newcomers have the > > shallowest understanding of zsh, but not necessarily of shells, > > programming languages, configuration systems, or any number of things > > that might be relevant. > > > > This would be like saying a programmer entering the world of economics > > only has the shallowest of understandings and therefore cannot provide > > anything of value. > > You are misrepresenting what I said. No, I'm pretty certain you said newcomers "can only perpetuate that shallow understanding", but that's not true, that's not the *only* thing they can do. Sometimes they can come up with a new interpretation, or maybe an analogy nobody had thought of before. Sometimes they can even make suggestions to change things so this understanding is simplified, or perhaps even unnecessary. I don't think you meant to say that, but that's what you literally said. > > Ultimately the people who should judge prose meant for newcomers, are > > newcomers. If they say it isn't clear, then it isn't clear. > > Obviously. Then we are in agreement. A zsh veteran expert saying "this should be good for all newcomers" is not proof that it's truly good for all newcomers, the feedback from newcomers is still important. Cheers. --=20 Felipe Contreras