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dmarc=pass header.from=gmail.com; arc=none Received: from mail-ej1-f42.google.com ([209.85.218.42]:36404) by zero.zsh.org with esmtps (TLS1.3:TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) id 1oTvor-00029m-Hy; Fri, 02 Sep 2022 01:50:06 +0000 Received: by mail-ej1-f42.google.com with SMTP id h5so1049756ejb.3; Thu, 01 Sep 2022 18:50:05 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=content-transfer-encoding:cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from :in-reply-to:references:mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date; bh=7Fx/0Tq9JyrQOr4qDmsli2zxQa35MqrenO3BdUoZb54=; b=qfPHDKe85i3e98JQ3ZkUizQC2vmGwjYKrzHMaWV15ocT+oSqfLhgFqEUloJGNvnzUF fghtTQlZh/BtizZMYmhWdoMvhfEz/ev+gxHGwZECUxUIDu7QptnJolPtI0nvvEkTqtfW aq5m1VCDkyk+QRAYKyAYXiWZsxTPoU9XIvpqYtYdPvKBqr8oQ107YUTiRb9ukCArrc9j /rl33iNa/v17IQPvvW+TyBOcZN1XIuNYbUBnCekQVkIuiY4HUX/etTawIEf/ZWJgCTt6 Rh6B2FiIa62MtcHD8M40dJlRMqCIhIKvpzthxbB+SSeVdeA0sr4XcvdK5TJNoLe+W6nl +6jg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=content-transfer-encoding:cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from :in-reply-to:references:mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc :subject:date; bh=7Fx/0Tq9JyrQOr4qDmsli2zxQa35MqrenO3BdUoZb54=; b=vhkXfn8Ji/rF1dNen28Ookw9eNA8zPkmvtEgDWR1shMs4yVMmSi8cDGIxWnprSsHkR N5II/kKlUVJkBGeNF9gamQZ212Nc3fyaUjIb/X0HE9p4Fj1sYeLdWNCW+YNAH6mIt2kt /S4aQ8VoMs36s3lkLxX6VEGxxkcVxYbHbhIHKmBcUIYRYiYH7bOjabKMDe/d5Z2e/3sw SIG6wz2Xdu+U2oWW+vyktTys3s2ue4LAXIZ1asUJbpFrj3VgnudacgLMl+0F8bNl4079 gmI9WXmebYBL/MLdXl0LMpgLI+ab1IhONu0IHoN1gHW/+9rxRe1vSOjqjuIPJDMj4zKe 5bpg== X-Gm-Message-State: ACgBeo0CUSjFv0Iy8mvv+9Tb4FtL4YM3GH3BWhqIXbq9kRpgJHzXy3k1 NE2y1nR3TX6NCGva+Wmg9GlDn6OMRj66RaS0BWjbUwXX X-Google-Smtp-Source: AA6agR4skw/yh820L1jvWghTQwKvv7eTzGxPuC8gm7d4OySG4NzDQh0lY/f6wJAq36KdZ0HuwlH68eaBZaUvGiPqDk4= X-Received: by 2002:a17:906:7954:b0:742:7a6:b179 with SMTP id l20-20020a170906795400b0074207a6b179mr11609164ejo.679.1662083405028; Thu, 01 Sep 2022 18:50:05 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <0e8bc96d-17a7-4be2-afab-7a0fd827866f@www.fastmail.com> <5141de6b-dbee-4d4b-3b74-d95a671fa04e@luffy.cx> <33d0bd1a-4da7-416d-a92a-04ceb07d1107@www.fastmail.com> <1c9b6072-26e7-467e-b8cc-7d44f15eaf1b@www.fastmail.com> <9116efd4-7c88-4ea3-9601-9c522236fee7@www.fastmail.com> <20220831092831.GA992100@zira.vinc17.org> <2a3b5ac0-f4f8-4c14-835a-c3d31db6d4fb@www.fastmail.com> In-Reply-To: <2a3b5ac0-f4f8-4c14-835a-c3d31db6d4fb@www.fastmail.com> From: Felipe Contreras Date: Thu, 1 Sep 2022 20:49:52 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Most minimal configuration challenge To: =?UTF-8?Q?Lawrence_Vel=C3=A1zquez?= Cc: Ray Andrews , zsh-users@zsh.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Seq: 28026 Archived-At: X-Loop: zsh-users@zsh.org Errors-To: zsh-users-owner@zsh.org Precedence: list Precedence: bulk Sender: zsh-users-request@zsh.org X-no-archive: yes List-Id: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: List-Post: List-Owner: List-Archive: On Thu, Sep 1, 2022 at 8:27 PM Lawrence Vel=C3=A1zquez wro= te: > On Wed, Aug 31, 2022, at 10:17 AM, Ray Andrews wrote: > > On 2022-08-31 02:28, Vincent Lefevre wrote: > >>> In short, =C2=ABzstyle ':foo:bar:*:baz' key v1 v2=C2=BB translates as= "When > >>> library foo asks for the value of key in a situation of the form > >>> bar:*:baz, tell it the answer is =C2=ABv1 v2=C2=BB". > >> Perhaps there should be a zsh function that translates a zstyle line > >> to plain English. :-) > >> > > Yup. Unfortunately we tend to think that experts are the ones who > > should write > > documentation, but they are unqualified. They write sentences that exp= lain > > what they already know back to themselves. It's like learning Coptic > > from a book > > written in Coptic. > > This is common enough, but... > > > Only people who have just now learned something can > > explain it in a way that other people who want to learn it can relate t= o > > because > > only the learner has the mind of a learner. > > Someone who has "just now learned something" has the shallowest > possible understanding of it and can only perpetuate that shallow > understanding. That is not quite true. Yes, the vast majority of newcomers have the shallowest understanding of zsh, but not necessarily of shells, programming languages, configuration systems, or any number of things that might be relevant. This would be like saying a programmer entering the world of economics only has the shallowest of understandings and therefore cannot provide anything of value. Yeah, maybe not provide any value of economic theory, but he can provide value in data processing... which is what shapes economic theories. Or that a patent clerk cannot provide value in physics... Albert Einstein would beg to disagree. Value can come from unexpected places. > That is certainly all that is necessary in some > contexts, but it is not true education; it is sharing tips and > tricks. > > The ideal educator pairs a deep knowledge of their field with an > equally deep sensitivity for the needs of their students. It is > difficult to acquire just one of these things, let alone both, which > is why great educators are few and far between. But the true value of educators comes from the fact that they are in the frontlines of knowledge acquisition. The main reason they know what explanations work better is constant feedback from students. The clueless students are an essential part of the equation. > > Experts have the mind of > > experts. > > So the above no doubt makes perfect sense to the expert who wrote it an= d > > already > > understands it, but is useless to me. > > I think this is pretty harsh toward Daniel. I have no doubt he > could have written a more verbose and comprehensive explanation in > a paragraph or two, but I wouldn't have been surprised if you'd > objected to its wordiness. It's not either or. I constantly try to put myself in the shoes of newcomers, and sometimes an explanation I give is deemed not clear enough. Does that mean I failed and I'm stupid? No, it's just feedback, I can try another one. People who are not constantly being subject to criticism often think it's something negative, but it isn't, it's just an opportunity to try something better. Ultimately the people who should judge prose meant for newcomers, are newcomers. If they say it isn't clear, then it isn't clear. To think otherwise would be like a comic saying his joke is great because all his fellow comics agree, if it bombs with audiences it just means the audiences don't understand comedy. No, the whole point is that audiences like it, if they don't, then it's not a great joke. --=20 Felipe Contreras