From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.5 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_SIGNED,DKIM_VALID, DKIM_VALID_AU,DKIM_VALID_EF,MAILING_LIST_MULTI,RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: from zero.zsh.org (zero.zsh.org [IPv6:2a02:898:31:0:48:4558:7a:7368]) by inbox.vuxu.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 74C09237FE for ; Thu, 15 Feb 2024 15:32:35 +0100 (CET) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=zsh.org; s=rsa-20210803; h=List-Archive:List-Owner:List-Post:List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe:List-Help:List-Id:Sender:Content-Transfer-Encoding: Content-Type:Subject:Cc:To:From:Date:References:In-Reply-To:Message-Id: MIME-Version:Reply-To:Content-ID:Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From: Resent-Sender:Resent-To:Resent-Cc:Resent-Message-ID; bh=XQx+JmzrcSfmN80n8V0iC8EYYA4pv20763hLcM2DWxs=; b=KY5lWIvGZd/7ESCrIFJEDKP00K KxPSqv5vaPrr5m2kHveT82BWTNQLD9Vv0c93Iwbq08XPT9EjDKpwgDGdoiq4nwjygbnCWUq0Pkptu /m+HaX5a01vU1iFEyJfNvVTK3idfYELGb8DHuDzudbFYnzFPLEjmb/andriKEMfljk//G8+63Ox36 5Ayaf28tjVzFc6yUjRmGPQis+f0UGVFqZ6bIMmEMX3UIG814yNw/83ZEfU5FZ46fVXU+f7/UqBF8m 7rRuvhncacqivIXgLm/UfxUxyaIzJpJUE6bXM8GVuzBxzywxUQ6/7CgAxoz1Dj/nMeDO/qQL1s0rX j7ngRKzA==; Received: by zero.zsh.org with local id 1racmv-000Fm8-Gw; Thu, 15 Feb 2024 14:32:33 +0000 Received: by zero.zsh.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.3:TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) id 1racmF-000F5z-Ja; Thu, 15 Feb 2024 14:31:51 +0000 Received: from compute2.internal (compute2.nyi.internal [10.202.2.46]) by mailfauth.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8D6271200069; Thu, 15 Feb 2024 09:31:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from imap48 ([10.202.2.98]) by compute2.internal (MEProxy); Thu, 15 Feb 2024 09:31:49 -0500 X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedvledrvddtgdeiiecutefuodetggdotefrodftvf curfhrohhfihhlvgemucfhrghsthforghilhdpqfgfvfdpuffrtefokffrpgfnqfghnecu uegrihhlohhuthemuceftddtnecusecvtfgvtghiphhivghnthhsucdlqddutddtmdenuc fjughrpefofgggkfgjfhffhffvvefutgfgsehtqhertderreejnecuhfhrohhmpefnrgif rhgvnhgtvgcugggvlhojiihquhgviicuoehlrghrrhihvhesiihshhdrohhrgheqnecugg ftrfgrthhtvghrnhepkeduieefvdfgffffteejfeeggfffleejudejgfdttdeiffetlefg fedtieeltddvnecuffhomhgrihhnpehprhhoughutghinhhgohhsshdrtghomhenucevlh hushhtvghrufhiiigvpedtnecurfgrrhgrmhepmhgrihhlfhhrohhmpehlrghrrhihvhdo mhgvshhmthhprghuthhhphgvrhhsohhnrghlihhthidqudduhedukeejjedtgedquddule dvjeefkeehqdhlrghrrhihvheppeiishhhrdhorhhgsehfrghsthhmrghilhdrtghomh X-ME-Proxy: Feedback-ID: iaa214773:Fastmail Received: by mailuser.nyi.internal (Postfix, from userid 501) id 406DB31A0065; Thu, 15 Feb 2024 09:31:49 -0500 (EST) X-Mailer: MessagingEngine.com Webmail Interface User-Agent: Cyrus-JMAP/3.11.0-alpha0-144-ge5821d614e-fm-20240125.002-ge5821d61 MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: <0b3cf56b-004d-4a9f-a643-a53ccb50e278@eastlink.ca> Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2024 09:30:27 -0500 From: =?UTF-8?Q?Lawrence_Vel=C3=A1zquez?= To: "Roman Perepelitsa" , "Ray Andrews" Cc: zsh-users@zsh.org Subject: Re: Counting characters in command output? Content-Type: text/plain;charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Seq: 29675 Archived-At: X-Loop: zsh-users@zsh.org Errors-To: zsh-users-owner@zsh.org Precedence: list Precedence: bulk Sender: zsh-users-request@zsh.org X-no-archive: yes List-Id: List-Help: , List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Owner: List-Archive: On Thu, Feb 15, 2024, at 4:50 AM, Roman Perepelitsa wrote: > On Wed, Feb 14, 2024 at 4:37=E2=80=AFPM Ray Andrews wrote: >> >> What are the vectors? First must be logical necessity, second >> consistency -- avoid strange exceptions -- third and fourth would >> be helpfulness and tradition, with old-school guys favoring >> tradition and guys like me favoring helpfulness. > > In any debate between tradition and helpfulness, ensure your > counterpart agrees with this perspective. Should they present > arguments they consider essential for necessity and consistency, and > you categorize them merely as "tradition," dialogue ceases. From their > standpoint, your stance appears at best inconsistent, or at worst, > vague, and you fail to recognize their points even when clearly > outlined. I would push it further: The worst-case perception would be one of ignor= ant arrogance. Compatibility is not tradition, but calling it so sugges= ts a dismissive, uncharitable belief that there are no plausible reasons= for it -- only a stubborn preference for How Things Used to Be. People= rarely respond well when they think they're being called sclerotic moro= ns. >> I wish there were enough of us on this list to put things to a vote >> sometimes [...] > > For anything to happen, somebody has to do the work. There is no point > in voting if the vote has no consequences: it's not an obligation for > anybody to do the work, nor does any work require an approval from > voters. Voting is a poor mechanism for building consensus, in any case. https://producingoss.com/en/consensus-democracy.html#when-to-vote --=20 vq