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boundary="------------LPu7hdaD9zovn0Yx2fLVW5U0" Message-id: Date: Sun, 14 Apr 2024 10:22:02 -0700 MIME-version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird Subject: Re: triviality regarding $# counts To: zsh-users@zsh.org References: <97793422-1543-4ba6-b52b-ff93eba03ab1@eastlink.ca> <1e53a3f7-9bdb-45ae-81c7-7d0ec1a6a541@app.fastmail.com> <3cc19e86-e953-4e2f-9e57-30ff84f15fdf@eastlink.ca> <0a0b9ec3-4661-4386-9fbf-b3152a46001e@eastlink.ca> <9416dc0a-3e41-4229-a9e1-239411ab3c17@eastlink.ca> <4a1e027c-a9d8-4306-bf3b-e1282914644c@app.fastmail.com> <4e9aa98c-9b5d-4e22-b7fc-8c50a9af9ada@eastlink.ca> Content-language: en-US From: Ray Andrews In-reply-to: X-Seq: 29829 Archived-At: X-Loop: zsh-users@zsh.org Errors-To: zsh-users-owner@zsh.org Precedence: list Precedence: bulk Sender: zsh-users-request@zsh.org X-no-archive: yes List-Id: List-Help: , List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Owner: List-Archive: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------LPu7hdaD9zovn0Yx2fLVW5U0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 2024-04-14 08:51, Bart Schaefer wrote: > On Sun, Apr 14, 2024 at 6:24 AM Ray Andrews wrote: > The trouble with that "doctrine" is that what is surprising is > subjective and context-dependent both in usage and in time. When > these decisions were made, the largest number of zsh adoptees would > have been more surprised by having empty elements kept than removed. > Mysteriously receiving error messages like Absolutely.  It is subjective therefore a design decision, not anything like right or wrong.  I think the 'no negative options' rule is more objective tho.  Still, even recognizing the rule, there will be exceptions and maybe this is one of them. > ls: : No such file or directory > > would have been the surprising thing. Further, many commands neither > understand nor do anything useful with empty string arguments, and zsh > was intended first to be an interactive command shell and only second > a programming language (just a better one than BSD csh). That might be enough to close the case.  When I think of my data arrays it doesn't occur to me that 'ls' is going to receive it's arguments using the same rules.  Yeah, I've run into that -- piping array contents to 'ls' and having it barf at a blank.  So even as a theoretical discussion, what I'm suggesting would have to be unique to personal data, not arguments sent to ls ... but that might not be possible so ... I loose.  Or ... the speculative: 'no empty elements' flag would have to be applied to all utilities.  Anyway it's just philosophy. But this morning's mixup is cured.  print might take "  \n  " and give me a new line but as far as "  ${(f)....}  " ... is concerned they are not the same thing and "  '\n'  " will not be removed but "   $'\n'   " will be removed.  I get it.  And in an assignment, it's spaces that delimit elements. Hard spaces will be inside ticks or $'' . Thanks for everyone's patience. --------------LPu7hdaD9zovn0Yx2fLVW5U0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

On 2024-04-14 08:51, Bart Schaefer wrote:
On Sun, Apr 14, 2024 at 6:24 AM Ray Andrews <rayandrews@eastlink.ca> wrote:

The trouble with that "doctrine" is that what is surprising is
subjective and context-dependent both in usage and in time.  When
these decisions were made, the largest number of zsh adoptees would
have been more surprised by having empty elements kept than removed.
Mysteriously receiving error messages like
Absolutely.  It is subjective therefore a design decision, not anything like right or wrong.  I think the 'no negative options' rule is more objective tho.  Still, even recognizing the rule, there will be exceptions and maybe this is one of them.
ls: : No such file or directory

would have been the surprising thing.  Further, many commands neither
understand nor do anything useful with empty string arguments, and zsh
was intended first to be an interactive command shell and only second
a programming language (just a better one than BSD csh).
That might be enough to close the case.  When I think of my data arrays it doesn't occur to me that 'ls' is going to receive it's arguments using the same rules.  Yeah, I've run into that -- piping array contents to 'ls' and having it barf at a blank.  So even as a theoretical discussion, what I'm suggesting would have to be unique to personal data, not arguments sent to ls ... but that might not be possible so ... I loose.  Or ... the speculative: 'no empty elements' flag would have to be applied to all utilities.  Anyway it's just philosophy. 

But this morning's mixup is cured.  print might take "  \n  " and give me a new line but as far as "  ${(f)....}  " ... is concerned they are not the same thing and "  '\n'  " will not be removed but "   $'\n'   " will be removed.  I get it.  And in an assignment, it's spaces that delimit elements. Hard spaces will be inside ticks or $'' . 

Thanks for everyone's patience.

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