From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.2 (2018-09-13) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.0 required=5.0 tests=MAILING_LIST_MULTI, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.2 Received: from primenet.com.au (ns1.primenet.com.au [203.24.36.2]) by inbox.vuxu.org (OpenSMTPD) with ESMTP id fb4311dc for ; Thu, 2 Jan 2020 21:29:14 +0000 (UTC) Received: (qmail 8701 invoked by alias); 2 Jan 2020 21:29:09 -0000 Mailing-List: contact zsh-workers-help@zsh.org; run by ezmlm Precedence: bulk X-No-Archive: yes List-Id: Zsh Workers List List-Post: List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: X-Seq: 45200 Received: (qmail 23493 invoked by uid 1010); 2 Jan 2020 21:29:09 -0000 X-Qmail-Scanner-Diagnostics: from mail-yw1-f46.google.com by f.primenet.com.au (envelope-from , uid 7791) with qmail-scanner-2.11 (clamdscan: 0.102.1/25677. spamassassin: 3.4.2. Clear:RC:0(209.85.161.46):SA:0(-1.9/5.0):. Processed in 3.949072 secs); 02 Jan 2020 21:29:09 -0000 X-Envelope-From: dana@dana.is X-Qmail-Scanner-Mime-Attachments: | X-Qmail-Scanner-Zip-Files: | Received-SPF: pass (ns1.primenet.com.au: SPF record at _netblocks.google.com designates 209.85.161.46 as permitted sender) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=JXN9amJtvMafHeBwkdXJ+m57QdFhVkpbtwbJi3nYIZo=; b=MYvybom7ATgqX8DxH5U00SnQz8/4GwOH+2wki3g5Vkak5Ap3xL2SK90nULf+eG6VVN k97TXrCY1yKt2vEZ6jQJoDin2zmNjnCyuKmaoeVR1m6t97OWFS+4iTFsU6g09AGoEbND XR6kIKoX7SsBzMpnRakQPKt/0NsOFQQApSVMwwEKRfL/+9dIJlbDLqB/Cq5gMY1GUg9l g5AsP2+84OeERRAj0rgmwZjTjg0vY96SnfVKgt5rY3phbu9YUq26nr8eEpkONR1KuZO1 YtXMmfyMgl+JIadbX7M493Bs+saWK7l56HdOgBIpuPIwooz3a6R7BszcVRmk75dvyr8f LbUw== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAUmrijN4vQ7ckdi2TrSYlqeEHOsItNy0bmqYEH2WIkqkFJbPjrY 1wlvCudqDfC43TQ/H9R8DHdA/y8aeuGy/g== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqxRXaxVJ3DVy6h6Qyudb/+BJEMXKJmWBHZCsaKqw7dCcf4Cr968ZFoNqXbLdodDclbJi4q6Lw== X-Received: by 2002:a81:6d91:: with SMTP id i139mr65723866ywc.401.1578000512364; Thu, 02 Jan 2020 13:28:32 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.11\)) Subject: Re: Official plugin manager? From: dana In-Reply-To: Date: Thu, 2 Jan 2020 15:30:40 -0600 Cc: Daniel Shahaf , Zsh hackers list Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <0C0C9775-59EE-4FBB-AB84-3E7FEF6E5024@dana.is> References: <63663202-4b1d-428a-b16b-5be1425e84ef@www.fastmail.com> To: Sebastian Gniazdowski X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.11) On 2 Jan 2020, at 05:37, Sebastian Gniazdowski = wrote: > Okay. I think that the one interesting point was the 3rd one. I think > that it harms Zshell's picture out there by making the following > thinking common: that you cannot use Zsh without loading a bloated > framework like Oh My Zsh. I agree that zsh provides an underwhelming out-of-box experience for = novice users and that they are funnelled into OMZ in an attempt to address = that. It'd be nice if that wasn't the case. I'm not necessarily opposed to an = official plug-in manager, but i'm not sure it follows that creating one would = solve this specific problem. Lots of zsh plug-in managers already exist. Any one of them can be used = by blog authors to 'share decent zshrcs which would also include the other = needed setopts and zstyles, etc.' *right now*. The existence of OMZ does not = prevent this. OMZ itself can be used to manage settings like that. The only = thing that would be different about a first-party plug-in manager is that you = wouldn't have to install it first. Beyond that, for *managing plug-ins*, it makes = very little difference. Novice users don't use OMZ because they want to manage plug-ins. They = use it because they want a command they can just run to get the fancy = completion and prompts they see in screen-shots on dev.to or whatever, and OMZ fulfills = that desire by unconditionally modifying the shell's configuration to enable whatever its developers consider desirable functionality. I assume = that's what you meant when you said that OMZ is 'bloated'. It *is* bloated, but = that's exactly the selling point. Were we to provide a first-party plug-in = manager, in the absence of other changes, it would simply be used to install OMZ, = or something like it. When i first started using zsh, i had the same experience with the = new-user wizard that Roman did, and it's my impression that that's not uncommon. = It's a good idea in theory, but I think the success of projects like OMZ and = fish shows that most users now don't really want the degree of control that = it provides. They just want the cool stuff. If that's true, i feel like = having the wizard simply offer to turn on that (pre-determined) cool stuff = would be an easier and more effective way to cut into the OMZ use case than a = plug-in manager. dana