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Tue, 4 Oct 2022 03:28:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: by tarpaulin.shahaf.local2 (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 4MhTnf18GGz1vj; Tue, 4 Oct 2022 07:28:06 +0000 (UTC) Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2022 07:28:06 +0000 From: Daniel Shahaf To: Wesley Cc: zsh-workers@zsh.org Subject: Re: The request of words matter updated Message-ID: <20221004072806.GD27622@tarpaulin.shahaf.local2> References: <6e0e440b-8e26-4a15-8f69-7b393aa6ff13@app.fastmail.com> <1142471274.1562947.1664268254401@mail.virginmedia.com> <9cf82892-e90a-4404-8b56-04b0046b9165@app.fastmail.com> <293717690.1711429.1664382844704@mail.virginmedia.com> <322402e9-db22-9917-8983-f328a3e76cec@protonmail.com> <20221004070520.GC27622@tarpaulin.shahaf.local2> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: <20221004070520.GC27622@tarpaulin.shahaf.local2> User-Agent: Mutt/1.10.1 (2018-07-13) X-Seq: 50732 Archived-At: X-Loop: zsh-workers@zsh.org Errors-To: zsh-workers-owner@zsh.org Precedence: list Precedence: bulk Sender: zsh-workers-request@zsh.org X-no-archive: yes List-Id: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: List-Post: List-Owner: List-Archive: Daniel Shahaf wrote on Tue, Oct 04, 2022 at 07:05:20 +0000: > Wesley wrote on Mon, Oct 03, 2022 at 15:27:49 +0000: > > > > > > On 9/28/22 12:34, Peter Stephenson wrote: > > > > > I'm guessing that of those who favour a change there are no major > > > feelings in favour of any of the various alternative ways of saying "upper" > > > and "lower"? > > > > > > Once that's established, perhaps someone could arrange for an online vote > > > at one of the websites that do that? Given no technical change results > > > from any of this, opinion is all we've got, and there's evidently no > > > sign of a consensus. > > > > Do you need consensus on this change? I mean, if someone provided a > > patch that changes master/slave to something else that makes sense > > because they want to stay clear of those words, would it not be > > accepted? > > pws posted such a patch upthread. > > > The change is essentially a refactor and should pass all the tests.. > > > > Any change has costs. In this case, the change might shadow or unshadow > another symbol (pws checked that for the terms his patch uses), would be > one more manual step for any future «blame» or «log» run, would > necessitate a rebase for anyone who has local patches to zpty.c, and > would introduce a https://xkcd.com/927/ problem to anyone reading zsh's > pseudo-terminal module's C source file. > > On the other hand, the change would allegedly make it easier for some > people to participate in the community. > > On the third hand, the change would likely have social costs as well. > However, these considerations are largely not specific to zsh, so I > expect we could save ourselves a lot of time by finding a good write-up > of the pros and cons of such terminology changes. Perhaps http://www.mit.edu/~jcb/tact.html? It's not specific to Naming Things, but it does touch on the question of how to interpret what other people say. In terms of jcb's thesis, the two positions on master/slave terminology seem to be "tactlessness is a strict liability faux pas; if Bob opines Alice spoke tactlessly, she should speak differently" and "Alice wasn't being intentionally racist/speciesist/*, and Bob should follow Postel's Law". If I wrote the last paragraph well, I mispresented /both/ positions equally badly :P Daniel > Speaking of write-ups, I wonder if producingoss would accept patches > adding discussion of such terminology changes. > > Cheers, > > Daniel > > > I'm not in favor of the change because there is not a technical reason > > to solve. It is purely a policital (correctness) change. I don't see how > > the change of master/slave in code is changing actual systematic racism > > around the world or how it confronts former colonizing countries with > > their often brutal past. The change itself should have minimal to no > > impact on the code itself and should not present any problems to the > > outside world. > > > > All that said, I think IBM should be the driver of the change as it > > doesn't comply with their "Words matter" policy. They just threw a stick > > in a bee hive and now are watching the bees go crazy. If they want it > > fixed, they should provide the patches to fix *their* political issue. > > Unless someone within the zsh project really agrees with their view ofc. > > > > Those are my 2 cents on this topic. > > > > Cheers, > > Wesley > > > > -- > > Wesley Schwengle > > > > > > >