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Mon, 24 Oct 2022 21:15:25 +0000 (UTC) Received: from [10.251.9.101] (rrcs-24-173-95-34.sw.biz.rr.com [24.173.95.34]) by iris.zentaur.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4Mx7C11WC1z3wZb for ; Mon, 24 Oct 2022 21:15:25 +0000 (UTC) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------6ABwoBovf5BFzW4jKdH5HB1t" Message-ID: <4d288abe-5f72-6cff-9704-e80ae4b4e07b@zentaur.org> Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2022 16:15:24 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:102.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/102.4.0 Subject: Re: preliminary patch for zsh/random module To: zsh-workers@zsh.org References: <08cb4c65-acd4-ba91-d82d-b8f3943aed8b@zentaur.org> Content-Language: en-US From: Clinton Bunch In-Reply-To: <08cb4c65-acd4-ba91-d82d-b8f3943aed8b@zentaur.org> X-Seq: 50836 Archived-At: X-Loop: zsh-workers@zsh.org Errors-To: zsh-workers-owner@zsh.org Precedence: list Precedence: bulk Sender: zsh-workers-request@zsh.org X-no-archive: yes List-Id: List-Help: , List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Owner: List-Archive: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------6ABwoBovf5BFzW4jKdH5HB1t Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 10/24/2022 8:20 AM, Clinton Bunch wrote: > On 10/23/2022 11:47 PM, Bart Schaefer wrote: >> On Sun, Oct 23, 2022 at 7:57 PM Clinton Bunch =20 >> wrote: >>> On 10/23/2022 9:01 PM, Bart Schaefer wrote: >>>> * Typo in the introductory comment. >>> I'm pretty sure I've since found and changed all the instances of >>> Zoltan's name. >> I was referring to the spelling of "randome". >> >>>> Actual question:=C2=A0 What's the use case for returning or printing= a >>>> block of random bytes?=C2=A0 Why does this need to be a builtin? >>> Mostly because I see constructs like read -k6 -u3 3> ... because? > > I did it to seed rand48.=C2=A0 Roman did it to generate a 32-bit random= =20 > integer.=C2=A0 Both of which are obsoleted by other parts of this modul= e. > > I'm sure there are other reasons someone might want to read more or=20 > less than 4 bytes of random data.=C2=A0 One that comes to mind is=20 > generating a password in a platform-independent way without assuming=20 > perl or python. > Here's an example: randpw () { =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 local=20 chars=3D"ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZabcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz01234567890@= #%&()" =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 local tmp =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 local -i num =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 num=3D${1:-10} =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 getrandom -l $num -s tmp =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 for i in {1..${#tmp}..2} =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 do =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 print -n ${chars["16#${tmp[$i,$i+1]}"%${#chars}+1]} =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 done =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 echo } >> >>> it would be nice to initialize an array with random numbers without >>> having to use a loop to access SRANDOM n times. >> But you're not filling an array with random numbers, you're filling a >> string (scalar) with random bytes. > Actually, it does both. >> >>>> Suggestion:=C2=A0 Treat SRANDOM like SECONDS, in that you can change= the >>>> type from integer to floating-point.=C2=A0 Then maybe the zrandom() = math >>>> function isn't needed? >>> That would seem confusing to me, and too easy to forget which state y= ou >>> left it in. >> You make it local so you're not leaving it. >> >> () { >> =C2=A0 print $SECONDS; >> =C2=A0 () { >> =C2=A0=C2=A0 local -F SECONDS >> =C2=A0=C2=A0 print $SECONDS >> =C2=A0 } >> =C2=A0 print $SECONDS >> } >> 56 >> 0.0000050000 >> 56 > Still seems like something you do because you can rather than because=20 > it's intuitive to the user.=C2=A0 Also, your example assumes you'd only= =20 > want to do this in a function (or wrap it in an anonymous function=20 > just for this purpose) >> >>> zrandom was meant to be a replacement for rand48 >> OK. >> > > --------------6ABwoBovf5BFzW4jKdH5HB1t Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On 10/24/2022 8:20 AM, Clinton Bunch wrote:
On 10/23/2022 11:47 PM, Bart Schaefer wrote:
On Sun, Oct 23, 2022 at 7:57 PM Clinton Bunch <cdb_zsh@zentaur.org> wrote:
On 10/23/2022 9:01 PM, Bart Schaefer wrote:
* Typo in the introductory comment.
I'm pretty sure I've since found and changed all the instances of
Zoltan's name.
I was referring to the spelling of "randome".

Actual question:=C2=A0 What's the use= case for returning or printing a
block of random bytes?=C2=A0 Why does this need to be a built= in?
Mostly because I see constructs like read -k6 -u3 3</dev/urandom
... because?

I did it to seed rand48.=C2=A0 Roman did it to generate a 32-bit ra= ndom integer.=C2=A0 Both of which are obsoleted by other parts of this module.

I'm sure there are other reasons someone might want to read more or less than 4 bytes of random data.=C2=A0 One that comes to mind i= s generating a password in a platform-independent way without assuming perl or python.

Here's an example:

randpw () {
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 local chars=3D"ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZabcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz01234567890@= #%&()"
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 local tmp
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 local -i num
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 num=3D${1:-10}
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 getrandom -l $num -s t= mp
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 for i in {1..${#tmp}..= 2}
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 do
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 print -n ${chars["16#${tmp[$i,$i+1]}"%${#chars}+1]}
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 done
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 echo
}


it would be nice to initialize an array with random numbers without
having to use a loop to access SRANDOM n times.
But you're not filling an array with random numbers, you're filling a
string (scalar) with random bytes.
Actually, it does both.

Suggestion:=C2=A0 Treat SRANDOM like SECONDS, in that you can change the
type from integer to floating-point.=C2=A0 Then maybe the zrandom() math
function isn't needed?
That would seem confusing to me, and too easy to forget which state you
left it in.
You make it local so you're not leaving it.

() {
=C2=A0 print $SECONDS;
=C2=A0 () {
=C2=A0=C2=A0 local -F SECONDS
=C2=A0=C2=A0 print $SECONDS
=C2=A0 }
=C2=A0 print $SECONDS
}
56
0.0000050000
56
Still seems like something you do because you can rather than because it's intuitive to the user.=C2=A0 Also, your example assume= s you'd only want to do this in a function (or wrap it in an anonymous function just for this purpose)

zrandom was meant to be a replacement for rand48
OK.



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