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* CSS for Zsh website?
@ 2022-03-02 13:08 David Wales
  2022-03-02 14:26 ` Peter Stephenson
                   ` (2 more replies)
  0 siblings, 3 replies; 23+ messages in thread
From: David Wales @ 2022-03-02 13:08 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: zsh-workers


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Hi Zsh web maintainers,

Apologies if this has been raised before.
I did a quick search of the mailing list archives but couldn't see 
anything directly relevant.

I noticed that the Zsh website and user guide don't have any CSS.
I've come up with a minimal bit of CSS which makes a big difference, 
especially for the user guide:

body {
     margin: auto;
     max-width: 80ch;
     font-family: Arial, sans-serif;
     padding: 5px;
}

pre {
     overflow: auto;
}

I think this makes the user guide look much more modern and readable.
I've set my browser to auto-inject it on the Zsh pages, but thought I 
should share it in case there's interest to include it the website.

Is there a preference for no CSS?
Or is this something the Zsh web maintainers would consider including, 
especially for the user guide?

Regards,
David Wales

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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 23+ messages in thread

* Re: CSS for Zsh website?
  2022-03-02 13:08 CSS for Zsh website? David Wales
@ 2022-03-02 14:26 ` Peter Stephenson
  2022-03-03 11:19 ` Daniel Shahaf
  2022-03-03 22:37 ` Axel Beckert
  2 siblings, 0 replies; 23+ messages in thread
From: Peter Stephenson @ 2022-03-02 14:26 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: David Wales, zsh-workers

> On 02 March 2022 at 13:08 David Wales <daviewales@disroot.org> wrote:
> Is there a preference for no CSS?
> Or is this something the Zsh web maintainers would consider including, 
> especially for the user guide?

I'm pretty sure the way it is is just historical.  A bit of CSS would
almost certainly be a very good idea.  I don't know what the existing
level of expertise is around here, but depending on other responses I
would guess any input you have is likely to be very useful.

pws


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 23+ messages in thread

* Re: CSS for Zsh website?
  2022-03-02 13:08 CSS for Zsh website? David Wales
  2022-03-02 14:26 ` Peter Stephenson
@ 2022-03-03 11:19 ` Daniel Shahaf
  2022-03-03 22:15   ` David Wales
  2022-03-03 23:27   ` Lawrence Velázquez
  2022-03-03 22:37 ` Axel Beckert
  2 siblings, 2 replies; 23+ messages in thread
From: Daniel Shahaf @ 2022-03-03 11:19 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: David Wales, zsh-workers

David Wales wrote on Wed, 02 Mar 2022 13:08 +00:00:
> I noticed that the Zsh website and user guide don't have any CSS.
> I've come up with a minimal bit of CSS which makes a big difference, 
> especially for the user guide:
>

What URL specifically do you mean?  "The user guide" could be referring
to either of several documents:

https://zsh.sourceforge.io/Doc/
https://zsh.sourceforge.io/FAQ/
https://zsh.sourceforge.io/Guide/
https://zsh.sourceforge.io/Intro/

> body {
>      margin: auto;
>      max-width: 80ch;
>      font-family: Arial, sans-serif;
>      padding: 5px;
> }
>
> pre {
>      overflow: auto;
> }
>
> I think this makes the user guide look much more modern and readable.

I use the equivalent of max-width with man(1) [1], so that one certainly
sounds reasonable to me.

However, I wonder whether we're reinventing a wheel here.  There ought
to be a manual out there whose CSS we can simply borrow (with
attribution, subject to license, etc., of course).  E.g., skimming
Python's docs' CSS, they seem to set max-width differently for wide and
narrow displays.  Reusing someone else's CSS would mean we won't have
to think about such issues.

> I've set my browser to auto-inject it on the Zsh pages, but thought I 
> should share it in case there's interest to include it the website.
>

Thanks!

> Is there a preference for no CSS? Or is this something the Zsh web
> maintainers would consider including, especially for the user guide?

As pws says, I think it's just that no one ever got around to styling
the HTML.

The HTML is compiled from yodl/texinfo, so we'll want to do this the
right way and patch the build scripts to add CSS.  The code for this
should be in zsh.git:Doc/Makefile.in or zsh-web.git:**/Makefile, depending
on what "user guide" referred to.

Cheers,

Daniel

[1] on Linux: MANWIDTH=80 man --no-hyphenation


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 23+ messages in thread

* Re: CSS for Zsh website?
  2022-03-03 11:19 ` Daniel Shahaf
@ 2022-03-03 22:15   ` David Wales
  2022-03-04 13:12     ` Daniel Shahaf
  2022-03-03 23:27   ` Lawrence Velázquez
  1 sibling, 1 reply; 23+ messages in thread
From: David Wales @ 2022-03-03 22:15 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Daniel Shahaf, zsh-workers

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>What URL specifically do you mean?  "The user guide" could be referring
>to either of several documents:
>
>https://zsh.sourceforge.io/Doc/
>https://zsh.sourceforge.io/FAQ/
>https://zsh.sourceforge.io/Guide/
>https://zsh.sourceforge.io/Intro/

I was thinking of /Guide. However, I think the CSS is general enough to work across the whole site.

>However, I wonder whether we're reinventing a wheel here. 

Quite probably. I got a minimalist vibe from the existing site, so I tried to match that with minimalist CSS!

If there's appetite for fanciness, then adapting fancy CSS from somewhere else might work. My CSS for example will not give you fancy code boxes.

>The HTML is compiled from yodl/texinfo, so we'll want to do this the
>right way and patch the build scripts to add CSS.  The code for this
>should be in zsh.git:Doc/Makefile.in or zsh-web.git:**/Makefile, depending
>on what "user guide" referred to.

Thanks!

>[1] on Linux: MANWIDTH=80 man --no-hyphenation

I leant something new!

If there's consensus that we don't want to use my minimal CSS, and that we do want to adapt fancy CSS from a compatibly licensed project I'm happy to do a bit of research for something suitable.

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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 23+ messages in thread

* Re: CSS for Zsh website?
  2022-03-02 13:08 CSS for Zsh website? David Wales
  2022-03-02 14:26 ` Peter Stephenson
  2022-03-03 11:19 ` Daniel Shahaf
@ 2022-03-03 22:37 ` Axel Beckert
  2022-03-03 23:23   ` Lawrence Velázquez
  2 siblings, 1 reply; 23+ messages in thread
From: Axel Beckert @ 2022-03-03 22:37 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: David Wales; +Cc: zsh-workers

Hi,

On Thu, Mar 03, 2022 at 12:08:11AM +1100, David Wales wrote:
>     max-width: 80ch;

Please don't artificially restrict the width of text on websites for
no need! This is a waste of screen space. Please leave it to the user
if a restriction of text width is needed or not.

>     font-family: Arial, sans-serif;

Arial was not made of onscreen reading. If you prefer a specific font,
use a) a free one (free as in free software) and b) one which made for
onscreen reading.

Additionally, I'd leave the decision of serif vs sans-serif to the
user. (And reading normal text is usually easier to read with serif
fonts.)

		Kind regards, Axel
-- 
PGP: 2FF9CD59612616B5      /~\  Plain Text Ribbon Campaign, http://arc.pasp.de/
Mail: abe@deuxchevaux.org  \ /  Say No to HTML in E-Mail and Usenet
Mail+Jabber: abe@noone.org  X
https://axel.beckert.ch/   / \  I love long mails: https://email.is-not-s.ms/


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 23+ messages in thread

* Re: CSS for Zsh website?
  2022-03-03 22:37 ` Axel Beckert
@ 2022-03-03 23:23   ` Lawrence Velázquez
  2022-03-04  0:12     ` Bart Schaefer
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 23+ messages in thread
From: Lawrence Velázquez @ 2022-03-03 23:23 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Axel Beckert, David Wales; +Cc: zsh-workers

On Thu, Mar 3, 2022, at 5:37 PM, Axel Beckert wrote:
> Hi,
>
> On Thu, Mar 03, 2022 at 12:08:11AM +1100, David Wales wrote:
>>     max-width: 80ch;
>
> Please don't artificially restrict the width of text on websites for
> no need! This is a waste of screen space. Please leave it to the user
> if a restriction of text width is needed or not.

Hard disagree.  Legibility decreases with line length.

https://practicaltypography.com/page-margins.html#on-the-web

> Additionally, I'd leave the decision of serif vs sans-serif to the
> user. (And reading normal text is usually easier to read with serif
> fonts.)

If everything is just going to degrade to "let the user decide",
then there's not much point in adding CSS at all.

-- 
vq


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 23+ messages in thread

* Re: CSS for Zsh website?
  2022-03-03 11:19 ` Daniel Shahaf
  2022-03-03 22:15   ` David Wales
@ 2022-03-03 23:27   ` Lawrence Velázquez
  1 sibling, 0 replies; 23+ messages in thread
From: Lawrence Velázquez @ 2022-03-03 23:27 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Daniel Shahaf, David Wales; +Cc: zsh-workers

On Thu, Mar 3, 2022, at 6:19 AM, Daniel Shahaf wrote:
> However, I wonder whether we're reinventing a wheel here.  There ought
> to be a manual out there whose CSS we can simply borrow (with
> attribution, subject to license, etc., of course).  E.g., skimming
> Python's docs' CSS, they seem to set max-width differently for wide and
> narrow displays.  Reusing someone else's CSS would mean we won't have
> to think about such issues.

+1

-- 
vq


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 23+ messages in thread

* Re: CSS for Zsh website?
  2022-03-03 23:23   ` Lawrence Velázquez
@ 2022-03-04  0:12     ` Bart Schaefer
  2022-03-04  2:44       ` Lawrence Velázquez
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 23+ messages in thread
From: Bart Schaefer @ 2022-03-04  0:12 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Lawrence Velázquez; +Cc: Axel Beckert, David Wales, Zsh hackers list

On Thu, Mar 3, 2022 at 3:31 PM Lawrence Velázquez <larryv@zsh.org> wrote:
>
> On Thu, Mar 3, 2022, at 5:37 PM, Axel Beckert wrote:
> >
> > On Thu, Mar 03, 2022 at 12:08:11AM +1100, David Wales wrote:
> >>     max-width: 80ch;
> >
> > Please don't artificially restrict the width of text on websites
>
> Hard disagree.  Legibility decreases with line length.

Soft disagree.  Setting width to 80 characters is no more necessary
than allowing it to be 100% of the viewport.  The only time to use
character widths is with fixed-width fonts.  Set margins, not widths.

> > Additionally, I'd leave the decision of serif vs sans-serif

Incidentally I don't find serif to be easier to read unless e.g. I'm
trying to distinguish cap-I from lower-l without syntax context.


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 23+ messages in thread

* Re: CSS for Zsh website?
  2022-03-04  0:12     ` Bart Schaefer
@ 2022-03-04  2:44       ` Lawrence Velázquez
  2022-03-04 13:26         ` Daniel Shahaf
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 23+ messages in thread
From: Lawrence Velázquez @ 2022-03-04  2:44 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Bart Schaefer; +Cc: Axel Beckert, David Wales, zsh-workers

On Thu, Mar 3, 2022, at 7:12 PM, Bart Schaefer wrote:
> On Thu, Mar 3, 2022 at 3:31 PM Lawrence Velázquez <larryv@zsh.org> wrote:
>>
>> On Thu, Mar 3, 2022, at 5:37 PM, Axel Beckert wrote:
>> >
>> > On Thu, Mar 03, 2022 at 12:08:11AM +1100, David Wales wrote:
>> >>     max-width: 80ch;
>> >
>> > Please don't artificially restrict the width of text on websites
>>
>> Hard disagree.  Legibility decreases with line length.
>
> Soft disagree.  Setting width to 80 characters is no more necessary
> than allowing it to be 100% of the viewport.  The only time to use
> character widths is with fixed-width fonts.  Set margins, not widths.

Agreed!  I didn't mean to defend the specific CSS that was proffered.
Frankly, before this thread I didn't know that "ch" was a CSS unit.

-- 
vq


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 23+ messages in thread

* Re: CSS for Zsh website?
  2022-03-03 22:15   ` David Wales
@ 2022-03-04 13:12     ` Daniel Shahaf
  2022-03-05  8:47       ` David Wales
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 23+ messages in thread
From: Daniel Shahaf @ 2022-03-04 13:12 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: David Wales; +Cc: zsh-workers

> >What URL specifically do you mean?  "The user guide" could be referring
> >to either of several documents:
> >
> >https://zsh.sourceforge.io/Doc/
> >https://zsh.sourceforge.io/FAQ/
> >https://zsh.sourceforge.io/Guide/
> >https://zsh.sourceforge.io/Intro/
> 
> I was thinking of /Guide. However, I think the CSS is general enough
> to work across the whole site.
> 
> >However, I wonder whether we're reinventing a wheel here. 
> 
> Quite probably. I got a minimalist vibe from the existing site, so I
> tried to match that with minimalist CSS!
> 
> If there's appetite for fanciness, then adapting fancy CSS from
> somewhere else might work. My CSS for example will not give you fancy
> code boxes.
> If there's consensus that we don't want to use my minimal CSS, and
> that we do want to adapt fancy CSS from a compatibly licensed project

I think that's a false dichotomy.  "Not reinvent the wheel" and "Prefer
fancy to minimal" are not synonymous; rather, they are orthogonal.  That
is: it's entirely possible to design fancy styling from scratch, as it
is to reuse someone else's minimal styling.

After all, our styling needs aren't unique.  If anything, I'm surprised
the answer isn't just "Pass the --foo option to texi2html(1)".

> I'm happy to do a bit of research for something suitable.

Appreciated!  Let's see what consensus emerges on what kind of style is
desirable.

Cheers,

Daniel


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 23+ messages in thread

* Re: CSS for Zsh website?
  2022-03-04  2:44       ` Lawrence Velázquez
@ 2022-03-04 13:26         ` Daniel Shahaf
  2022-03-05  6:34           ` Lawrence Velázquez
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 23+ messages in thread
From: Daniel Shahaf @ 2022-03-04 13:26 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: zsh-workers; +Cc: David Wales

Lawrence Velázquez wrote on Thu, Mar 03, 2022 at 21:44:48 -0500:
> On Thu, Mar 3, 2022, at 7:12 PM, Bart Schaefer wrote:
> > On Thu, Mar 3, 2022 at 3:31 PM Lawrence Velázquez <larryv@zsh.org> wrote:
> >>
> >> On Thu, Mar 3, 2022, at 5:37 PM, Axel Beckert wrote:
> >> >
> >> > On Thu, Mar 03, 2022 at 12:08:11AM +1100, David Wales wrote:
> >> >>     max-width: 80ch;
> >> >
> >> > Please don't artificially restrict the width of text on websites
> >>
> >> Hard disagree.  Legibility decreases with line length.
> >
> > Soft disagree.  Setting width to 80 characters is no more necessary
> > than allowing it to be 100% of the viewport.  The only time to use
> > character widths is with fixed-width fonts.  Set margins, not widths.
> 
> Agreed!  I didn't mean to defend the specific CSS that was proffered.

I'm confused.  Didn't you just now post a link that explains why widths
should be set rather than margins?  Quoting from there [with emphasis
removed]:

    There isn’t one margin size that will work for all web pages, but
    the core advice is the same as on the printed page—focus on line
    length.

> Frankly, before this thread I didn't know that "ch" was a CSS unit.


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 23+ messages in thread

* Re: CSS for Zsh website?
  2022-03-04 13:26         ` Daniel Shahaf
@ 2022-03-05  6:34           ` Lawrence Velázquez
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 23+ messages in thread
From: Lawrence Velázquez @ 2022-03-05  6:34 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Daniel Shahaf; +Cc: David Wales, zsh-workers

On Fri, Mar 4, 2022, at 8:26 AM, Daniel Shahaf wrote:
> Lawrence Velázquez wrote on Thu, Mar 03, 2022 at 21:44:48 -0500:
>> On Thu, Mar 3, 2022, at 7:12 PM, Bart Schaefer wrote:
>> > Soft disagree.  Setting width to 80 characters is no more necessary
>> > than allowing it to be 100% of the viewport.  The only time to use
>> > character widths is with fixed-width fonts.  Set margins, not widths.
>> 
>> Agreed!  I didn't mean to defend the specific CSS that was proffered.
>
> I'm confused.  Didn't you just now post a link that explains why widths
> should be set rather than margins?  Quoting from there [with emphasis
> removed]:
>
>     There isn’t one margin size that will work for all web pages, but
>     the core advice is the same as on the printed page—focus on line
>     length.

Sorry, I meant to agree with the notion that a fixed character width
is inappropriate.

-- 
vq


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 23+ messages in thread

* Re: CSS for Zsh website?
  2022-03-04 13:12     ` Daniel Shahaf
@ 2022-03-05  8:47       ` David Wales
  2022-03-10 15:37         ` Vincent Lefevre
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 23+ messages in thread
From: David Wales @ 2022-03-05  8:47 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Daniel Shahaf; +Cc: zsh-workers

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On 5 March 2022 12:12:52 am AEDT, Daniel Shahaf <d.s@daniel.shahaf.name> 
wrote:
>> If there's consensus that we don't want to use my minimal CSS, and
>> that we do want to adapt fancy CSS from a compatibly licensed project
>
>I think that's a false dichotomy. "Not reinvent the wheel" and "Prefer
>fancy to minimal" are not synonymous; rather, they are orthogonal. That
>is: it's entirely possible to design fancy styling from scratch, as it
>is to reuse someone else's minimal styling.

Agreed. Sorry for the imprecise language on my part.


On 5 March 2022 12:26:16 am AEDT, Daniel Shahaf <d.s@daniel.shahaf.name> wrote:
>Lawrence Velázquez wrote on Thu, Mar 03, 2022 at 21:44:48 -0500:
>> On Thu, Mar 3, 2022, at 7:12 PM, Bart Schaefer wrote:
>> > On Thu, Mar 3, 2022 at 3:31 PM Lawrence Velázquez <larryv@zsh.org> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> On Thu, Mar 3, 2022, at 5:37 PM, Axel Beckert wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> > On Thu, Mar 03, 2022 at 12:08:11AM +1100, David Wales wrote:
>> >> >>     max-width: 80ch;
>> >> >
>> >> > Please don't artificially restrict the width of text on websites
>> >>
>> >> Hard disagree.  Legibility decreases with line length.
>> >
>> > Soft disagree.  Setting width to 80 characters is no more necessary
>> > than allowing it to be 100% of the viewport.  The only time to use
>> > character widths is with fixed-width fonts.  Set margins, not widths.
>> 
>> Agreed!  I didn't mean to defend the specific CSS that was proffered.
>
>I'm confused.  Didn't you just now post a link that explains why widths
>should be set rather than margins?  Quoting from there [with emphasis
>removed]:
>
>    There isn’t one margin size that will work for all web pages, but
>    the core advice is the same as on the printed page—focus on line
>    length.

I'm not an expert in CSS, typography or even Zsh! However, I believe that limiting the text width to a certain maximum number of characters is best for readability. In fact, another page of the same typography website suggests that the maximum text width should be between 45-90 characters.[1]

I'm not precious about which particular CSS should be used. I'm open to reusing something from another project once this group has reached consensus on the desired style. However, in defence of the CSS ch unit for variable width fonts, I think it provides a very direct way of restricting the number of characters in a line. According to the MDN docs, the ch unit is equal to the width of the digit 0 in the current font. So, if we accept the premise that there should be no more than 90 characters in a line, then specifying 90ch as max-width should be a pretty decent approximation, even if some lines have 88 characters and others 92 due to the variable width font.
I'm not sure how this could be easily  achieved with margins.

As for my specific choice to use 80ch, I wanted to minimise line length without cutting the edges off the code blocks. Looking at the Yodl source, it looked to be hard wrapped to approximately 80 characters, so I hoped this would be a good balance. However, the code blocks are monospaced, so 90ch might be a safer max-width for the variable width body.

I also included `overflow: auto` for the pre tag to ensure that any code blocks longer than the max-width would get scroll bars.


[1] https://practicaltypography.com/line-length.html


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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 23+ messages in thread

* Re: CSS for Zsh website?
  2022-03-05  8:47       ` David Wales
@ 2022-03-10 15:37         ` Vincent Lefevre
  2022-03-10 16:23           ` Vin Shelton
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 23+ messages in thread
From: Vincent Lefevre @ 2022-03-10 15:37 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: zsh-workers

On 2022-03-05 19:47:11 +1100, David Wales wrote:
> I'm not an expert in CSS, typography or even Zsh! However, I believe
> that limiting the text width to a certain maximum number of
> characters is best for readability. In fact, another page of the
> same typography website suggests that the maximum text width should
> be between 45-90 characters.[1]

That's up to the reader to decide the best text width he prefers,
e.g. by choosing a better width for the browser window or with
user-side CSS. Having more text on the screen also has an advantage
to avoid scrolling too often.

> I also included `overflow: auto` for the pre tag to ensure that any
> code blocks longer than the max-width would get scroll bars.

Artificially setting a maximum width so that code blocks get scrollbars
makes code more difficult to read.

-- 
Vincent Lefèvre <vincent@vinc17.net> - Web: <https://www.vinc17.net/>
100% accessible validated (X)HTML - Blog: <https://www.vinc17.net/blog/>
Work: CR INRIA - computer arithmetic / AriC project (LIP, ENS-Lyon)


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 23+ messages in thread

* Re: CSS for Zsh website?
  2022-03-10 15:37         ` Vincent Lefevre
@ 2022-03-10 16:23           ` Vin Shelton
  2022-03-10 16:31             ` Peter Stephenson
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 23+ messages in thread
From: Vin Shelton @ 2022-03-10 16:23 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Zsh Hackers' List

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I routinely use fullscreen to browse the web (without custom CSS), but line
lengths > 100 characters are unreadable for me, so a width limitation on
text would make sense for me.

  - Vin


On Thu, Mar 10, 2022 at 10:37 AM Vincent Lefevre <vincent@vinc17.net> wrote:

> On 2022-03-05 19:47:11 +1100, David Wales wrote:
> > I'm not an expert in CSS, typography or even Zsh! However, I believe
> > that limiting the text width to a certain maximum number of
> > characters is best for readability. In fact, another page of the
> > same typography website suggests that the maximum text width should
> > be between 45-90 characters.[1]
>
> That's up to the reader to decide the best text width he prefers,
> e.g. by choosing a better width for the browser window or with
> user-side CSS. Having more text on the screen also has an advantage
> to avoid scrolling too often.
>
> > I also included `overflow: auto` for the pre tag to ensure that any
> > code blocks longer than the max-width would get scroll bars.
>
> Artificially setting a maximum width so that code blocks get scrollbars
> makes code more difficult to read.
>
> --
> Vincent Lefèvre <vincent@vinc17.net> - Web: <https://www.vinc17.net/>
> 100% accessible validated (X)HTML - Blog: <https://www.vinc17.net/blog/>
> Work: CR INRIA - computer arithmetic / AriC project (LIP, ENS-Lyon)
>
>

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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 23+ messages in thread

* Re: CSS for Zsh website?
  2022-03-10 16:23           ` Vin Shelton
@ 2022-03-10 16:31             ` Peter Stephenson
  2022-03-10 17:17               ` Clinton Bunch
  2022-03-10 19:20               ` Vin Shelton
  0 siblings, 2 replies; 23+ messages in thread
From: Peter Stephenson @ 2022-03-10 16:31 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Vin Shelton, Zsh Hackers' List

> On 10 March 2022 at 16:23 Vin Shelton <acs@alumni.princeton.edu> wrote:
> I routinely use fullscreen to browse the web (without custom CSS), but line
> lengths > 100 characters are unreadable for me, so a width limitation on
> text would make sense for me.

For what it's worth, and without implying this is a definitive answer,
the state of the art for this seems to be a "reader" mode in browsers.
I clicked on the reader mode icon in Vivaldi on the randomly chosen

https://zsh.sourceforge.io/Guide/zshguide02.html#l6

and this seems to be doing a good job.

pws


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 23+ messages in thread

* Re: CSS for Zsh website?
  2022-03-10 16:31             ` Peter Stephenson
@ 2022-03-10 17:17               ` Clinton Bunch
  2022-03-10 21:12                 ` Lawrence Velázquez
  2022-03-10 19:20               ` Vin Shelton
  1 sibling, 1 reply; 23+ messages in thread
From: Clinton Bunch @ 2022-03-10 17:17 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: zsh-workers

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A width should be set to a percentage, not a character width, if set at 
all.  It really should only be set when you have sidebars you want to 
display.  Too many web designers are or want to be graphic designers and 
want the kind of control they have on a printed page.  This is why they 
set white backgrounds, which look great on paper, but are like staring 
into a light bulb on an LED display.  That's just one example of taking 
choice out of the users hands.

A web page should mostly be left in the hands of the user unless you 
have specific reasons to force a certain display.  Don't try to choose 
the general font, don't limit the width, and don't force the foreground 
and background colors for general text.  And if you do set one, for 
God's sake, set the other. It's one thing to set a foreground and 
background to set off a certain section of text, it's another to force 
the user to view it in the way that works best for *you*.

Code boxes should probably have a width set to 98%, so it doesn't 
require scrolling the whole page to see the extra long lines. (Though 
the writers of code should keep their code to a reasonable width and use 
line continuation rather than run-on lines for readability)

We are Unix people, a platform built on flexibility.  You have created 
one of the most flexible shells in existence.  (Which is why I've used 
it for 25+ years)  The website should reflect that flexibility.

On 3/10/2022 10:31 AM, Peter Stephenson wrote:
>> On 10 March 2022 at 16:23 Vin Shelton<acs@alumni.princeton.edu>  wrote:
>> I routinely use fullscreen to browse the web (without custom CSS), but line
>> lengths > 100 characters are unreadable for me, so a width limitation on
>> text would make sense for me.
> For what it's worth, and without implying this is a definitive answer,
> the state of the art for this seems to be a "reader" mode in browsers.
> I clicked on the reader mode icon in Vivaldi on the randomly chosen
>
> https://zsh.sourceforge.io/Guide/zshguide02.html#l6
>
> and this seems to be doing a good job.
>
> pws
>

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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 23+ messages in thread

* Re: CSS for Zsh website?
  2022-03-10 16:31             ` Peter Stephenson
  2022-03-10 17:17               ` Clinton Bunch
@ 2022-03-10 19:20               ` Vin Shelton
  1 sibling, 0 replies; 23+ messages in thread
From: Vin Shelton @ 2022-03-10 19:20 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Peter Stephenson; +Cc: Zsh Hackers' List

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 889 bytes --]

Thanks, that will help these tired old eyes.

Nonetheless, the current WWW is not made for text.  We lost that battle a
long time ago.  Anything we can do to make our text more readable is worth
it IMO.

On Thu, Mar 10, 2022 at 11:31 AM Peter Stephenson <
p.w.stephenson@ntlworld.com> wrote:

> > On 10 March 2022 at 16:23 Vin Shelton <acs@alumni.princeton.edu> wrote:
> > I routinely use fullscreen to browse the web (without custom CSS), but
> line
> > lengths > 100 characters are unreadable for me, so a width limitation on
> > text would make sense for me.
>
> For what it's worth, and without implying this is a definitive answer,
> the state of the art for this seems to be a "reader" mode in browsers.
> I clicked on the reader mode icon in Vivaldi on the randomly chosen
>
> https://zsh.sourceforge.io/Guide/zshguide02.html#l6
>
> and this seems to be doing a good job.
>
> pws
>

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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 23+ messages in thread

* Re: CSS for Zsh website?
  2022-03-10 17:17               ` Clinton Bunch
@ 2022-03-10 21:12                 ` Lawrence Velázquez
  2022-03-10 21:30                   ` Clinton Bunch
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 23+ messages in thread
From: Lawrence Velázquez @ 2022-03-10 21:12 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Clinton Bunch; +Cc: zsh-workers

On Thu, Mar 10, 2022, at 12:17 PM, Clinton Bunch wrote:
> A web page should mostly be left in the hands of the user

A nice thought, but in practice the vast majority of users only
ever see the defaults chosen by the website author.

> We are Unix people, a platform built on flexibility.  You have created 
> one of the most flexible shells in existence.  (Which is why I've used 
> it for 25+ years)  The website should reflect that flexibility.

I do not think projecting the sensibilities of an operating system
onto a website is a recipe for making a good website.

-- 
vq


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 23+ messages in thread

* Re: CSS for Zsh website?
  2022-03-10 21:12                 ` Lawrence Velázquez
@ 2022-03-10 21:30                   ` Clinton Bunch
  2022-03-10 21:39                     ` Bart Schaefer
                                       ` (2 more replies)
  0 siblings, 3 replies; 23+ messages in thread
From: Clinton Bunch @ 2022-03-10 21:30 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: zsh-workers


On 3/10/2022 3:12 PM, Lawrence Velázquez wrote:
> On Thu, Mar 10, 2022, at 12:17 PM, Clinton Bunch wrote:
>> A web page should mostly be left in the hands of the user
> A nice thought, but in practice the vast majority of users only
> ever see the defaults chosen by the website author.
But some don't, like people who prefer dark backgrounds or need a 15pt 
font to read.  Browsers have customizable defaults for a reason.  
Overriding those should require a reason other than it's what I like.
>
>> We are Unix people, a platform built on flexibility.  You have created
>> one of the most flexible shells in existence.  (Which is why I've used
>> it for 25+ years)  The website should reflect that flexibility.
> I do not think projecting the sensibilities of an operating system
> onto a website is a recipe for making a good website.

Flexibility is a key and often overlooked aspect to a website. People 
have different width screens, so setting things in pixel (or character) 
widths can make a web page look like crap.  It's quite frustrating when 
a website says "Best viewed at 1024x768" or some such.

What fancy design do you see the Zsh Website needing?  Drop down menus?  
Floating ads?  The fanciest thing I can see us needing is a side bar 
with a width set in ems.  We don't need to control every aspect of the 
user experience to get our message out there.



^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 23+ messages in thread

* Re: CSS for Zsh website?
  2022-03-10 21:30                   ` Clinton Bunch
@ 2022-03-10 21:39                     ` Bart Schaefer
  2022-03-10 22:43                     ` Vin Shelton
  2022-03-10 23:26                     ` Lawrence Velázquez
  2 siblings, 0 replies; 23+ messages in thread
From: Bart Schaefer @ 2022-03-10 21:39 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Clinton Bunch; +Cc: Zsh hackers list

On Thu, Mar 10, 2022 at 1:31 PM Clinton Bunch <cdbunch@zentaur.org> wrote:
>
> Flexibility is a key and often overlooked aspect to a website. People
> have different width screens

This is why stylesheets support "media" types.  However, I'm not sure
some of our programatically-generated pages lend themselves easily to
that.


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 23+ messages in thread

* Re: CSS for Zsh website?
  2022-03-10 21:30                   ` Clinton Bunch
  2022-03-10 21:39                     ` Bart Schaefer
@ 2022-03-10 22:43                     ` Vin Shelton
  2022-03-10 23:26                     ` Lawrence Velázquez
  2 siblings, 0 replies; 23+ messages in thread
From: Vin Shelton @ 2022-03-10 22:43 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Clinton Bunch; +Cc: Zsh Hackers' List


[-- Attachment #1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 2210 bytes --]

Yes, but rather than speaking in the abstract, let's be concrete.  Using
the URL Peter posted, this is fairly impenetrable for me (and perhaps most
users):

[image: image.png]
in particular, tracking from the right edge, skipping a line, and jumping
to the left edge is a fairly low probability event.  Also, my eyes have
difficulty tracking in the middle of most lines.

Using a reader makes a big difference (at the cost of some real estate):
[image: image.png]
The original proposal was to put some CSS limitations in place, so the
standard mode looked more like reader mode; I seem to be one of the few
respondents in favor of this proposal.

Regards,
  Vin



On Thu, Mar 10, 2022 at 4:30 PM Clinton Bunch <cdbunch@zentaur.org> wrote:

>
> On 3/10/2022 3:12 PM, Lawrence Velázquez wrote:
> > On Thu, Mar 10, 2022, at 12:17 PM, Clinton Bunch wrote:
> >> A web page should mostly be left in the hands of the user
> > A nice thought, but in practice the vast majority of users only
> > ever see the defaults chosen by the website author.
> But some don't, like people who prefer dark backgrounds or need a 15pt
> font to read.  Browsers have customizable defaults for a reason.
> Overriding those should require a reason other than it's what I like.
> >
> >> We are Unix people, a platform built on flexibility.  You have created
> >> one of the most flexible shells in existence.  (Which is why I've used
> >> it for 25+ years)  The website should reflect that flexibility.
> > I do not think projecting the sensibilities of an operating system
> > onto a website is a recipe for making a good website.
>
> Flexibility is a key and often overlooked aspect to a website. People
> have different width screens, so setting things in pixel (or character)
> widths can make a web page look like crap.  It's quite frustrating when
> a website says "Best viewed at 1024x768" or some such.
>
> What fancy design do you see the Zsh Website needing?  Drop down menus?
> Floating ads?  The fanciest thing I can see us needing is a side bar
> with a width set in ems.  We don't need to control every aspect of the
> user experience to get our message out there.
>
>
>

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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 23+ messages in thread

* Re: CSS for Zsh website?
  2022-03-10 21:30                   ` Clinton Bunch
  2022-03-10 21:39                     ` Bart Schaefer
  2022-03-10 22:43                     ` Vin Shelton
@ 2022-03-10 23:26                     ` Lawrence Velázquez
  2 siblings, 0 replies; 23+ messages in thread
From: Lawrence Velázquez @ 2022-03-10 23:26 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Clinton Bunch; +Cc: zsh-workers

On Thu, Mar 10, 2022, at 4:30 PM, Clinton Bunch wrote:
> But some don't, like people who prefer dark backgrounds or need a 15pt 
> font to read.  Browsers have customizable defaults for a reason.  
> Overriding those should require a reason other than it's what I like.

I agree, in principle.  Sane styling that also respects user defaults
would be ideal.

> Flexibility is a key and often overlooked aspect to a website. People 
> have different width screens, so setting things in pixel (or character) 
> widths can make a web page look like crap.  It's quite frustrating when 
> a website says "Best viewed at 1024x768" or some such.

I agree w.r.t. those examples.

> What fancy design do you see the Zsh Website needing?  Drop down menus?  
> Floating ads?

Other than capped line length, I have not given it much thought.
Probably nothing particularly fancy.

-- 
vq


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 23+ messages in thread

end of thread, other threads:[~2022-03-10 23:27 UTC | newest]

Thread overview: 23+ messages (download: mbox.gz / follow: Atom feed)
-- links below jump to the message on this page --
2022-03-02 13:08 CSS for Zsh website? David Wales
2022-03-02 14:26 ` Peter Stephenson
2022-03-03 11:19 ` Daniel Shahaf
2022-03-03 22:15   ` David Wales
2022-03-04 13:12     ` Daniel Shahaf
2022-03-05  8:47       ` David Wales
2022-03-10 15:37         ` Vincent Lefevre
2022-03-10 16:23           ` Vin Shelton
2022-03-10 16:31             ` Peter Stephenson
2022-03-10 17:17               ` Clinton Bunch
2022-03-10 21:12                 ` Lawrence Velázquez
2022-03-10 21:30                   ` Clinton Bunch
2022-03-10 21:39                     ` Bart Schaefer
2022-03-10 22:43                     ` Vin Shelton
2022-03-10 23:26                     ` Lawrence Velázquez
2022-03-10 19:20               ` Vin Shelton
2022-03-03 23:27   ` Lawrence Velázquez
2022-03-03 22:37 ` Axel Beckert
2022-03-03 23:23   ` Lawrence Velázquez
2022-03-04  0:12     ` Bart Schaefer
2022-03-04  2:44       ` Lawrence Velázquez
2022-03-04 13:26         ` Daniel Shahaf
2022-03-05  6:34           ` Lawrence Velázquez

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