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Thu, 29 Sep 2022 04:08:25 +0000 (UTC) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=umbrellix.net; s=umbrellix.net; t=1664424505; bh=wsHlzVvxgK3Mjn4KNHCF1HiTCWz4fd0Jnp48qsEbyYY=; h=Date:To:Cc:References:From:Subject:In-Reply-To; b=R62UCrWepUw6jEOHLojTJcE990WGmWsqrFT2yHi60yvJzkSvZqdIY08rIjhRCLYp9 iD8QRw+DEvrsnuHATGi49ceZy7SRUHTgN5WJzuoKtT66zkGJ2GjXLYpIkKkzFKzduy QP+wsQAEP2RK1Qt27fmr1rBO2BcAj871lr7JOhUg= Message-ID: <95fa0bd2-be50-20c9-612a-69a5625270fe@umbrellix.net> Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2022 04:08:21 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; FreeBSD amd64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.13.0 Content-Language: en-US To: Clinton Bunch , Daniel Shahaf , zsh-workers@zsh.org Cc: Peter Stephenson , Xiao Ling XL Chen , Kui K Zhang References: <6e0e440b-8e26-4a15-8f69-7b393aa6ff13@app.fastmail.com> <1142471274.1562947.1664268254401@mail.virginmedia.com> <9cf82892-e90a-4404-8b56-04b0046b9165@app.fastmail.com> From: Ellenor Bjornsdottir Organization: Umbrellix Subject: On the "Words Matter" issue (was Re: The request of words matter updated; quotes deleted) In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Seq: 50697 Archived-At: X-Loop: zsh-workers@zsh.org Errors-To: zsh-workers-owner@zsh.org Precedence: list Precedence: bulk Sender: zsh-workers-request@zsh.org X-no-archive: yes List-Id: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: List-Post: List-Owner: List-Archive: There seems to be three contingents engaging publicly here:  * what I'll call the IBM parties, who are here on business related to the Words Matter policy, holding that "master/slave" terminology is to be avoided when synonymous terminology is available  * people speaking in support of zsh coming into adherence to the policy * people speaking in opposition to zsh coming into adherence to the policy People speaking in support invoke the fact that the words cause pain for some marginalized people working in tech. I am not the kind of marginalized person for whom this would matter (I'm not racialized nor am I a survivor of human trafficking), so I cannot speak to this, but I will say that this charges the perception of some people who are as unmarginalized as myself related to this topic. They also invoke the feeling of shame the opposition feels on public participation in the debate, as an indication that this is an idea whose time has come. I don't like this, but I don't think it factors. One of the two parties I've seen to openly oppose the motion have invoked the fact that, _a priori_, there's nothing bad about these words, which is on its face true - if you do not consider the harm that they can do to a certain marginalized community that I see underrepresented in tech, possibly due to this reason. The other party has sent messages to this list that vary between ... not warranting a response, and where they do warrant a response, being extremely petty about mail formatting (quoted-printable) to multiple people. Said second party also invokes the feeling of shame the opposition feels on the matter as "a propagandistic minority having the ability to dictate to the majority." Again, I don't think the shame of a silent majority or minority factors. I think one can do a harms and benefits analysis using solely practical facts. The only inconsistency and confusion I can see occurring is if the words are used in a public interface, and in the first few weeks to months as people get up to speed on the new, otherwise synonymous terminology in private interfaces. For public interfaces, a transitional approach may be appropriate where the deprecated terminology is used for aliases to the new terminology, and is slated to be removed at the developer's convenience (which may be never). To recapitulate somewhat, it appears from previous factual discussion on the matter that the cost of making this change would be a few cycles expended in `sed`, temporary perverse merriment as developers adjust, and nothing else - and the benefit would be that people triggered by human trafficking terminology would be able to participate more effectively in zsh development moving forward. The interface in question is private, so there's no need to worry about transitioning public interfaces. Plugins that use this code may need to be updated with version-based ifdefs - but do any plugins use this code? I am not a developer, so I don't want to weigh in on a matter that does not affect me, but I hope my analysis is useful for those who are developers to make a reasoned decision. -- Ellenor Agnes Bjornsdottir (she) sysadmin umbrellix.net jabber: ellenor ~on~ umbrellix.net