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[173.17.84.59]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id d3sm3169136qtm.56.2021.04.10.13.47.00 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Sat, 10 Apr 2021 13:47:00 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.4\)) Subject: Re: Rewrite of zsh-newuser-install (Mikael's subthread) From: dana In-Reply-To: <15283D59-F7B5-4A4C-AFFA-B9D3BB46963F@gmail.com> Date: Sat, 10 Apr 2021 15:46:57 -0500 Cc: Zsh hackers list Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <20210407162447.GB6316@tarpaulin.shahaf.local2> <15283D59-F7B5-4A4C-AFFA-B9D3BB46963F@gmail.com> To: Marlon X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.4) X-Seq: 48478 Archived-At: X-Loop: zsh-workers@zsh.org Errors-To: zsh-workers-owner@zsh.org Precedence: list Precedence: bulk Sender: zsh-workers-request@zsh.org X-no-archive: yes List-Id: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: List-Post: List-Owner: List-Archive: On 10 Apr 2021, at 06:23, Marlon wrote: > I have heard many criticism against OMZ, but it being =E2=80=9Ctoo = magical=E2=80=9D is new > to me. What exactly do you mean with that? Isn't it the *primary* criticism of OMZ? Most of its users seem to have = zero understanding of what it does or what separates it from zsh itself. *** Aside from being busy, i've kind of stepped back from this project = because i've started to have some anxiety about it myself. Although i still feel = we can't be *too* minimalistic with a default config, since nobody would = use it, the proposed changes have gone beyond the scope i'd initially = envisioned. At the same time, i don't know how to make an 'objective' case for why x = change is desirable but y change is excessive. I will say that we talked about this a bit on IRC (which is what = prompted Mikael to respond) and it seemed like most of the people in that = discussion felt that the proposed configuration is too complex to be of much help = with the stated goal of demonstrating how new users can modify their own = config. I hope it's not too arrogant to say, but it feels like if i as a zsh = developer don't understand what a lot of the config does without looking it up, = it's going to be nearly indecipherable to a beginner. That ties in with another concern i have, which is that once a user = installs this configuration, it's basically untouchable to us. We can't really = patch it after the fact if there's a problem with it. The more complex the config = is, the greater the risk that we'll have an issue like that. Those two observations lead me to feel that, if we do go forward with = this, maybe implementing it with prompt styles and auto-loaded functions would = be the way to go after all. That would hide some of the more overwhelming = aspects of the config from end users, and it would allow us to patch bugs or = otherwise improve things after the fact. I feel silly for bringing up fundamental 'architecture' questions so = late in the game but maybe that's something that we should come to a consensus = on before we finalise exactly what options/styles/whatever will be set. dana