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Thu, 29 Sep 2022 21:29:27 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <6e0e440b-8e26-4a15-8f69-7b393aa6ff13@app.fastmail.com> <1142471274.1562947.1664268254401@mail.virginmedia.com> <9cf82892-e90a-4404-8b56-04b0046b9165@app.fastmail.com> <95fa0bd2-be50-20c9-612a-69a5625270fe@umbrellix.net> In-Reply-To: <95fa0bd2-be50-20c9-612a-69a5625270fe@umbrellix.net> From: Bart Schaefer Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2022 21:29:16 -0700 Message-ID: Subject: Re: On the "Words Matter" issue (was Re: The request of words matter updated; quotes deleted) To: zsh-workers@zsh.org, Ellenor Bjornsdottir Cc: Clinton Bunch , Xiao Ling XL Chen , Kui K Zhang Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Seq: 50711 Archived-At: X-Loop: zsh-workers@zsh.org Errors-To: zsh-workers-owner@zsh.org Precedence: list Precedence: bulk Sender: zsh-workers-request@zsh.org X-no-archive: yes List-Id: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: List-Post: List-Owner: List-Archive: Thoughts and questions. I see a number of people have capitalized "Words Matter". I also find it interesting that this thread was initiated by IBM employees in China who are apparently not regular participants in zsh-workers or zsh-users. Is there an IBM corporate initiative called "Words Matter" that led to this discussion being opened at this particular time? As has been mentioned, this topic has been around a long time (2007 at least; https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/masterslave/). Obviously the term "master" has definitions and connotations that reference skill level, origin of concept or data, etc. Those connotations are typically clear from context. On the other hand, the word "slave" always refers to subservience and captivity (whether or not accepted by "consenting adults"), and therefore carries the emotional baggage that also attaches to "master" when the words are paired. (The Snopes article is some evidence that this is not just a "white knight" issue.) Arguments focused on those other connotations of "master" are missing the point. Whether or not one thinks emotional baggage is being self-righteously exaggerated or is a valid basis to make a technical change, it can't just be waved away with "but that shouldn't matter in this abstraction." If they weren't evocative, those words wouldn't have been chosen to begin with. (In grad school I worked on a project to compute fractal graphics with a multiprocessor computer. I called the nodes that did the computation "students" and the thread that collected the results and rendered an image the "faculty". When I explained during a presentation that the former did all the work and the latter got all the credit, the reaction was ... mixed.) In any case this mailing list is not the place to speculate about motivations or debate the evolution of language. We have a request before us from an interested third party and a proposed partial response to that request. (List of files mentioning "slave" follows, to explain why I say "partial".) Questions I think it is reasonable to discuss are: Assuming the original request is part of an IBM initiative, does rejecting it have an impact on the availability/adoption of zsh? Is it likely that other influential companies are going to follow suit? E.g., Apple appears to have adopted zsh as a default shell in MacOS. Is a similar request eventually to come from that quarter? If we don't act, are they likely to fork the code and do it themselves? Is a change in terminology going to cause confusion with upstream source or with packages we don't control? E.g., several of the files below are completions, and arguably it would not make sense to remove strings still in use by the corresponding commands/contexts. (We've already answered this for zpty.c in particular.) Is a change going to have a detrimental user-visible effect? (This is a more general version of the previous question.) If the foregoing are all "no", what's the degree of effort and who is prepared to work on it (rather than just spend time debating it)? Here's the list of files mentioning "slave"; answers to some of the above may vary per file: ./Functions/TCP/tcp_spam ./Src/Modules/zpty.c ./Etc/ChangeLog-3.1 ./ChangeLog ./Completion/Linux/Command/_ethtool ./Completion/Linux/Command/_lsblk ./Completion/Linux/Command/_unshare ./Completion/Linux/Command/_sshfs ./Completion/Linux/Command/_networkmanager ./Completion/X/Command/_xinput ./Completion/X/Command/_mplayer ./Completion/Debian/Command/_update-alternatives ./Completion/Unix/Command/_mysql_utils ./Completion/Unix/Command/_mount There are a lot more mentioning "master" but with the exception of mod_zpty.yo I think they may be considered to fall among the inoffensive connotations of that term. (If someone wants to dig deeper, see "who is prepared to work on it?" above.) For what it's worth, I think the "master" git branch belongs in that category too, and am not advocating to rename that in our project. I am also not advocating for a rewrite of history, so the ChangeLog files are IMO out of bounds.