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* The request of words matter updated
@ 2022-09-19  6:52 Xiao Ling XL Chen
  2022-09-19 18:20 ` Bart Schaefer
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 30+ messages in thread
From: Xiao Ling XL Chen @ 2022-09-19  6:52 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: zsh-workers

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There 12 slave and 16 master used as variables in source code   "Src/Modules/zpty.c". Even though the words "slave" & "master" are used as internal static variables, and not be exposed to external calling or exported it in message, as what the words matter requirement, may I ask change them in a future level? For example, replace “slave” with "worker", "child", "helper", "replica", "follower", or "secondary [server, node, process, or other noun]", and replace “master” with "controller", "leader", "manager", "main", "coordinator", "parent", or "primary [server, node, process, or other noun]". Thanks.

Take care, stay strong, and stay safe.

Best regards,
Sunny (Xiao Ling Chen, 陈小玲)

z/OS USS SU&DBX Development and L3
IBM China Systems & Technology Lab (CSTL)
Tel:    86-010-82452454
E-mail: chenxlxl@cn.ibm.com<mailto:chenxlxl@cn.ibm.com>
--



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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 30+ messages in thread

* Re: The request of words matter updated
  2022-09-19  6:52 The request of words matter updated Xiao Ling XL Chen
@ 2022-09-19 18:20 ` Bart Schaefer
  2022-09-27  3:15   ` Lawrence Velázquez
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 30+ messages in thread
From: Bart Schaefer @ 2022-09-19 18:20 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: zsh-workers

On Sun, Sep 18, 2022 at 11:58 PM Xiao Ling XL Chen <chenxlxl@cn.ibm.com> wrote:
>
> ... as what the words matter requirement, may I ask change them in a future level?

I support this effort in general, but at the present time the Linux
documentation for pty(7), openpty(3), etc., still use the terms in
question.  (I haven't checked other platforms.)  Should we plan for
this change to track the library terminology?


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 30+ messages in thread

* Re: The request of words matter updated
  2022-09-19 18:20 ` Bart Schaefer
@ 2022-09-27  3:15   ` Lawrence Velázquez
  2022-09-27  4:22     ` Bart Schaefer
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 30+ messages in thread
From: Lawrence Velázquez @ 2022-09-27  3:15 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Bart Schaefer; +Cc: zsh-workers, Xiao Ling XL Chen, Kui K Zhang

On Mon, Sep 19, 2022, at 2:20 PM, Bart Schaefer wrote:
> On Sun, Sep 18, 2022 at 11:58 PM Xiao Ling XL Chen <chenxlxl@cn.ibm.com> wrote:
>>
>> ... as what the words matter requirement, may I ask change them in a future level?
>
> I support this effort in general

+1

> but at the present time the Linux documentation for pty(7),
> openpty(3), etc., still use the terms in question.  (I haven't
> checked other platforms.)

FreeBSD, NetBSD, and OpenBSD do as well.

Illumos uses "manager" and "subsidiary" (https://illumos.org/man/4D/pty).

AIX uses "controller" and "worker"
(https://www.ibm.com/docs/en/aix/7.3?topic=files-pty-special-file).

> Should we plan for this change to track the library terminology?

Are Linux or the BSDs planning on making similar changes?  If not,
we could be waiting for a very long time.

-- 
vq


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 30+ messages in thread

* Re: The request of words matter updated
  2022-09-27  3:15   ` Lawrence Velázquez
@ 2022-09-27  4:22     ` Bart Schaefer
  2022-09-27  8:44       ` Peter Stephenson
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 30+ messages in thread
From: Bart Schaefer @ 2022-09-27  4:22 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Lawrence Velázquez; +Cc: zsh-workers, Xiao Ling XL Chen, Kui K Zhang

On Mon, Sep 26, 2022 at 8:18 PM Lawrence Velázquez <larryv@zsh.org> wrote:
>
> Illumos uses "manager" and "subsidiary"
> AIX uses "controller" and "worker"

Well, that's no fun.  It means there's no "term of art" we can adopt.
On the other hand, I guess, it means we don't have to worry about
confusing future programmers, because they'll already be confused.

> On Mon, Sep 19, 2022, at 2:20 PM, Bart Schaefer wrote:
> > Should we plan for this change to track the library terminology?
>
> Are Linux or the BSDs planning on making similar changes?

I'm sure they're at least aware of the general trend toward
eliminating this sort of terminology, I've been seeing it discussed in
other contexts for more than a decade.

In this particular context I'd probably choose something like
superior/inferior ... neither subsidiary nor worker really fits what
that half of the PTY pair is doing, IMO.  They sound like words chosen
for a global search-and-replace over a codebase nobody was willing to
actually read.


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 30+ messages in thread

* Re: The request of words matter updated
  2022-09-27  4:22     ` Bart Schaefer
@ 2022-09-27  8:44       ` Peter Stephenson
  2022-09-27 20:54         ` Daniel Shahaf
  2022-09-28 20:01         ` Eric Cook
  0 siblings, 2 replies; 30+ messages in thread
From: Peter Stephenson @ 2022-09-27  8:44 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: zsh-workers; +Cc: Xiao Ling XL Chen, Kui K Zhang


> On 27/09/2022 05:22 Bart Schaefer <schaefer@brasslantern.com> wrote:
> 
>  
> On Mon, Sep 26, 2022 at 8:18 PM Lawrence Velázquez <larryv@zsh.org> wrote:
> >
> > Illumos uses "manager" and "subsidiary"
> > AIX uses "controller" and "worker"
> 
> Well, that's no fun.  It means there's no "term of art" we can adopt.
> On the other hand, I guess, it means we don't have to worry about
> confusing future programmers, because they'll already be confused.

My only comment is that if we pick something unique and do the job
properly this time, then any further update to fit in with standards
is a 30 second automatic replacement.  So I don't think it's worth
agonising over.

> In this particular context I'd probably choose something like
> superior/inferior ... neither subsidiary nor worker really fits what
> that half of the PTY pair is doing, IMO.  They sound like words chosen
> for a global search-and-replace over a codebase nobody was willing to
> actually read.

So e.g. zsuperior and zinferior would give us that ability (but you may
well be right superior and inferior are good enough --- replacing
master and slave didn't hit any clashes).

pws

diff --git a/Src/Modules/zpty.c b/Src/Modules/zpty.c
index dfd2a2a7a..b9e3b4050 100644
--- a/Src/Modules/zpty.c
+++ b/Src/Modules/zpty.c
@@ -188,7 +188,7 @@ getptycmd(char *name)
 #endif
 
 static int
-get_pty(int master, int *retfd)
+get_pty(int zsuperior, int *retfd)
 {
     static char *name;
     static int mfd, sfd;
@@ -196,7 +196,7 @@ get_pty(int master, int *retfd)
     int ret;
 #endif
 
-    if (master) {
+    if (zsuperior) {
 #ifdef HAVE_POSIX_OPENPT
 	if ((mfd = posix_openpt(O_RDWR|O_NOCTTY)) < 0)
 #else
@@ -252,7 +252,7 @@ get_pty(int master, int *retfd)
 #else /* No /dev/ptmx or no pt functions */
 
 static int
-get_pty(int master, int *retfd)
+get_pty(int zsuperior, int *retfd)
 {
 
 #ifdef __linux
@@ -275,7 +275,7 @@ get_pty(int master, int *retfd)
     static int mfd, sfd;
     char *p1, *p2;
 
-    if (master) {
+    if (zsuperior) {
 	strcpy(name, "/dev/ptyxx");
 #if defined(__BEOS__) || defined(__HAIKU__)
 	name[7] = '/';
@@ -310,7 +310,7 @@ static int
 newptycmd(char *nam, char *pname, char **args, int echo, int nblock)
 {
     Ptycmd p;
-    int master, slave, pid, oineval = ineval, ret;
+    int zsuperior, zinferior, pid, oineval = ineval, ret;
     char *oscriptname = scriptname, syncch;
     Eprog prog;
 
@@ -327,7 +327,7 @@ newptycmd(char *nam, char *pname, char **args, int echo, int nblock)
 	return 1;
     }
 
-    if (get_pty(1, &master)) {
+    if (get_pty(1, &zsuperior)) {
 	zwarnnam(nam, "can't open pseudo terminal: %e", errno);
 	scriptname = oscriptname;
 	ineval = oineval;
@@ -335,7 +335,7 @@ newptycmd(char *nam, char *pname, char **args, int echo, int nblock)
     }
     if ((pid = fork()) == -1) {
 	zwarnnam(nam, "can't create pty command %s: %e", pname, errno);
-	close(master);
+	close(zsuperior);
 	scriptname = oscriptname;
 	ineval = oineval;
 	return 1;
@@ -360,9 +360,9 @@ newptycmd(char *nam, char *pname, char **args, int echo, int nblock)
 	}
 #endif
 
-	if (get_pty(0, &slave))
+	if (get_pty(0, &zinferior))
 	    exit(1);
-	SHTTY = slave;
+	SHTTY = zinferior;
 	attachtty(mypid);
 #ifdef TIOCGWINSZ
 	/* Set the window size before associating with the terminal *
@@ -370,10 +370,10 @@ newptycmd(char *nam, char *pname, char **args, int echo, int nblock)
 	if (interact) {
 	    struct ttyinfo info;
 
-	    if (ioctl(slave, TIOCGWINSZ, (char *) &info.winsize) == 0) {
+	    if (ioctl(zinferior, TIOCGWINSZ, (char *) &info.winsize) == 0) {
 		info.winsize.ws_row = zterm_lines;
 		info.winsize.ws_col = zterm_columns;
-		ioctl(slave, TIOCSWINSZ, (char *) &info.winsize);
+		ioctl(zinferior, TIOCSWINSZ, (char *) &info.winsize);
 	    }
 	}
 #endif /* TIOCGWINSZ */
@@ -381,7 +381,7 @@ newptycmd(char *nam, char *pname, char **args, int echo, int nblock)
 	if (!echo) {
 	    struct ttyinfo info;
 
-	    if (!ptygettyinfo(slave, &info)) {
+	    if (!ptygettyinfo(zinferior, &info)) {
 #ifdef HAVE_TERMIOS_H
 		info.tio.c_lflag &= ~ECHO;
 #else
@@ -391,25 +391,25 @@ newptycmd(char *nam, char *pname, char **args, int echo, int nblock)
 		info.tio.lmodes &= ~ECHO; /**** dunno if this is right */
 #endif
 #endif
-		ptysettyinfo(slave, &info);
+		ptysettyinfo(zinferior, &info);
 	    }
 	}
 
 #ifdef TIOCSCTTY
-	ioctl(slave, TIOCSCTTY, 0);
+	ioctl(zinferior, TIOCSCTTY, 0);
 #endif
 
 	close(0);
 	close(1);
 	close(2);
 
-	dup2(slave, 0);
-	dup2(slave, 1);
-	dup2(slave, 2);
+	dup2(zinferior, 0);
+	dup2(zinferior, 1);
+	dup2(zinferior, 2);
 
 	closem(FDT_UNUSED, 0);
-	close(slave);
-	close(master);
+	close(zinferior);
+	close(zsuperior);
 	close(coprocin);
 	close(coprocout);
 	init_io(NULL);
@@ -436,22 +436,22 @@ newptycmd(char *nam, char *pname, char **args, int echo, int nblock)
 	zexit(lastval, ZEXIT_NORMAL);
     }
 #ifndef USE_CYGWIN_FIX
-    master = movefd(master);
-    if (master == -1) {
-	zerrnam(nam, "cannot duplicate fd %d: %e", master, errno);
+    zsuperior = movefd(zsuperior);
+    if (zsuperior == -1) {
+	zerrnam(nam, "cannot duplicate fd %d: %e", zsuperior, errno);
 	scriptname = oscriptname;
 	ineval = oineval;
 	return 1;
     }
 #else
-    addmodulefd(master, FDT_INTERNAL);
+    addmodulefd(zsuperior, FDT_INTERNAL);
 #endif
 
     p = (Ptycmd) zalloc(sizeof(*p));
 
     p->name = ztrdup(pname);
     p->args = zarrdup(args);
-    p->fd = master;
+    p->fd = zsuperior;
     p->pid = pid;
     p->echo = echo;
     p->nblock = nblock;
@@ -464,13 +464,13 @@ newptycmd(char *nam, char *pname, char **args, int echo, int nblock)
     ptycmds = p;
 
     if (nblock)
-	ptynonblock(master);
+	ptynonblock(zsuperior);
 
     scriptname = oscriptname;
     ineval = oineval;
 
     do {
-	ret = read(master, &syncch, 1);
+	ret = read(zsuperior, &syncch, 1);
     } while (ret != 1 && (
 #ifdef EWOULDBLOCK
 	    errno == EWOULDBLOCK ||
@@ -481,7 +481,7 @@ newptycmd(char *nam, char *pname, char **args, int echo, int nblock)
 #endif
 	    errno == EINTR));
 
-    setiparam_no_convert("REPLY", (zlong)master);
+    setiparam_no_convert("REPLY", (zlong)zsuperior);
 
     return 0;
 }


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 30+ messages in thread

* Re: The request of words matter updated
  2022-09-27  8:44       ` Peter Stephenson
@ 2022-09-27 20:54         ` Daniel Shahaf
  2022-09-27 21:15           ` Clinton Bunch
                             ` (5 more replies)
  2022-09-28 20:01         ` Eric Cook
  1 sibling, 6 replies; 30+ messages in thread
From: Daniel Shahaf @ 2022-09-27 20:54 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Peter Stephenson, zsh-workers; +Cc: Xiao Ling XL Chen, Kui K Zhang

-1 on the patch because I don't believe people who disagree with the
change feel comfortable saying so publicly.

I will also point out that tracking the terms used by the formal parameters
in the callee's header files or documentation, as proposed upthread — is
a clear, objective criterion; makes the terminology decisions Someone
Else's Problem; makes the code easier to read; and involves less churn.
Without advocating for that particular solution or considering what
downsides it may have, I do wish to say those properties thereof seem
desirable.


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 30+ messages in thread

* Re: The request of words matter updated
  2022-09-27 20:54         ` Daniel Shahaf
@ 2022-09-27 21:15           ` Clinton Bunch
  2022-09-27 21:22             ` Clinton Bunch
  2022-09-28 12:33             ` zeurkous, zeurkous
  2022-09-27 21:32           ` Mikael Magnusson
                             ` (4 subsequent siblings)
  5 siblings, 2 replies; 30+ messages in thread
From: Clinton Bunch @ 2022-09-27 21:15 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: zsh-workers

On 9/27/2022 3:54 PM, Daniel Shahaf wrote:
> -1 on the patch because I don't believe people who disagree with the
> change feel comfortable saying so publicly.
>
> I will also point out that tracking the terms used by the formal parameters
> in the callee's header files or documentation, as proposed upthread — is
> a clear, objective criterion; makes the terminology decisions Someone
> Else's Problem; makes the code easier to read; and involves less churn.
> Without advocating for that particular solution or considering what
> downsides it may have, I do wish to say those properties thereof seem
> desirable.
>
We've been trying to rid ourselves of these words for twenty years in 
the IT industry.  They were used because they accurately describe the 
relationship and at the dawn of Unix and the Internet, the emotional 
charge the words carry wasn't recognized.


For PTYs  I like the terms controller and subsidiary.  It seems to 
describe the relationship better than other suggestions.  The use of 
superior and inferior as otherwhere suggested strike me as eventually 
running into the same problem of being emotionally charged.



^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 30+ messages in thread

* Re: The request of words matter updated
  2022-09-27 21:15           ` Clinton Bunch
@ 2022-09-27 21:22             ` Clinton Bunch
  2022-09-28 12:42               ` zeurkous, zeurkous
  2022-09-28 12:33             ` zeurkous, zeurkous
  1 sibling, 1 reply; 30+ messages in thread
From: Clinton Bunch @ 2022-09-27 21:22 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: zsh-workers, Xiao Ling XL Chen, Kui K Zhang

On 9/27/2022 4:15 PM, Clinton Bunch wrote:
> On 9/27/2022 3:54 PM, Daniel Shahaf wrote:
>> -1 on the patch because I don't believe people who disagree with the
>> change feel comfortable saying so publicly.
>>
>> I will also point out that tracking the terms used by the formal 
>> parameters
>> in the callee's header files or documentation, as proposed upthread — is
>> a clear, objective criterion; makes the terminology decisions Someone
>> Else's Problem; makes the code easier to read; and involves less churn.
>> Without advocating for that particular solution or considering what
>> downsides it may have, I do wish to say those properties thereof seem
>> desirable.
>>
> We've been trying to rid ourselves of these words for twenty years in 
> the IT industry.  They were used because they accurately describe the 
> relationship and at the dawn of Unix and the Internet, the emotional 
> charge the words carry wasn't recognized.
>
>
> For PTYs  I like the terms controller and subsidiary.  It seems to 
> describe the relationship better than other suggestions.  The use of 
> superior and inferior as otherwhere suggested strike me as eventually 
> running into the same problem of being emotionally charged.
>
I will also point out that making it "Somebody Else's Problem" Is a big 
part of why we haven't successfully rid ourselves of these terms in over 
two decades of realizing they were problematic. Let's not perpetuate the 
problem.



^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 30+ messages in thread

* Re: The request of words matter updated
  2022-09-27 20:54         ` Daniel Shahaf
  2022-09-27 21:15           ` Clinton Bunch
@ 2022-09-27 21:32           ` Mikael Magnusson
  2022-09-28  6:17             ` Felipe Contreras
                               ` (2 more replies)
  2022-09-28  6:14           ` Felipe Contreras
                             ` (3 subsequent siblings)
  5 siblings, 3 replies; 30+ messages in thread
From: Mikael Magnusson @ 2022-09-27 21:32 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Daniel Shahaf
  Cc: Peter Stephenson, zsh-workers, Xiao Ling XL Chen, Kui K Zhang

On 9/27/22, Daniel Shahaf <d.s@daniel.shahaf.name> wrote:
> -1 on the patch because I don't believe people who disagree with the
> change feel comfortable saying so publicly.

If a word is so bad that people don't want to say that they want to
keep it, then we should not keep it.

-- 
Mikael Magnusson


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 30+ messages in thread

* Re: The request of words matter updated
  2022-09-27 20:54         ` Daniel Shahaf
  2022-09-27 21:15           ` Clinton Bunch
  2022-09-27 21:32           ` Mikael Magnusson
@ 2022-09-28  6:14           ` Felipe Contreras
  2022-09-28 12:16             ` Clinton Bunch
  2022-09-28 12:52             ` Re: The request of words matter updated zeurkous, zeurkous
  2022-09-28 12:08           ` zeurkous, zeurkous
                             ` (2 subsequent siblings)
  5 siblings, 2 replies; 30+ messages in thread
From: Felipe Contreras @ 2022-09-28  6:14 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Daniel Shahaf
  Cc: Peter Stephenson, zsh-workers, Xiao Ling XL Chen, Kui K Zhang

On Tue, Sep 27, 2022 at 4:00 PM Daniel Shahaf <d.s@daniel.shahaf.name> wrote:
>
> -1 on the patch because I don't believe people who disagree with the
> change feel comfortable saying so publicly.

Agreed. I am one of the few people comfortable with disagreeing to
such changes publicly:

https://felipec.wordpress.com/2020/11/13/git-master/

Plenty of people have sent me private words of encouragement stating
this master/slave terminology change is nonsense, but they don't dare
to say so publicly.

Just because the silent majority is silent doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

-- 
Felipe Contreras


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 30+ messages in thread

* Re: The request of words matter updated
  2022-09-27 21:32           ` Mikael Magnusson
@ 2022-09-28  6:17             ` Felipe Contreras
  2022-09-28  6:30               ` Ellenor Bjornsdottir
  2022-09-28 12:47             ` zeurkous, zeurkous
  2022-09-29  8:35             ` Axel Beckert
  2 siblings, 1 reply; 30+ messages in thread
From: Felipe Contreras @ 2022-09-28  6:17 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Mikael Magnusson
  Cc: Daniel Shahaf, Peter Stephenson, zsh-workers, Xiao Ling XL Chen,
	Kui K Zhang

On Tue, Sep 27, 2022 at 4:39 PM Mikael Magnusson <mikachu@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> On 9/27/22, Daniel Shahaf <d.s@daniel.shahaf.name> wrote:
> > -1 on the patch because I don't believe people who disagree with the
> > change feel comfortable saying so publicly.
>
> If a word is so bad that people don't want to say that they want to
> keep it, then we should not keep it.

There's nothing "bad" about the word a priori. If *you* believe it has
to be changed, then *you* have the burden of proof.

Just like any other change.

-- 
Felipe Contreras


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 30+ messages in thread

* Re: The request of words matter updated
  2022-09-28  6:17             ` Felipe Contreras
@ 2022-09-28  6:30               ` Ellenor Bjornsdottir
  2022-09-28 12:57                 ` zeurkous, zeurkous
  2022-09-29  8:23                 ` Lawrence Velázquez
  0 siblings, 2 replies; 30+ messages in thread
From: Ellenor Bjornsdottir @ 2022-09-28  6:30 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: zsh-workers

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 977 bytes --]

Will this change actually harm anything - foreign libraries, etc?

If not, then because it clearly benefits some people, the cost-benefit calculus favors change.

I don't like it, but my opinion doesn't matter because the change harms nothing.

On 28 September 2022 06:17:59 UTC, Felipe Contreras <felipe.contreras@gmail.com> wrote:
>On Tue, Sep 27, 2022 at 4:39 PM Mikael Magnusson <mikachu@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> On 9/27/22, Daniel Shahaf <d.s@daniel.shahaf.name> wrote:
>> > -1 on the patch because I don't believe people who disagree with the
>> > change feel comfortable saying so publicly.
>>
>> If a word is so bad that people don't want to say that they want to
>> keep it, then we should not keep it.
>
>There's nothing "bad" about the word a priori. If *you* believe it has
>to be changed, then *you* have the burden of proof.
>
>Just like any other change.
>
>-- 
>Felipe Contreras
>

-- 
Ellenor Bjornsdottir (she)
sysadmin umbrellix.net

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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 30+ messages in thread

* RE: Re: The request of words matter updated
  2022-09-27 20:54         ` Daniel Shahaf
                             ` (2 preceding siblings ...)
  2022-09-28  6:14           ` Felipe Contreras
@ 2022-09-28 12:08           ` zeurkous, zeurkous
  2022-09-28 16:34           ` Peter Stephenson
  2022-09-29  8:31           ` Axel Beckert
  5 siblings, 0 replies; 30+ messages in thread
From: zeurkous, zeurkous @ 2022-09-28 12:08 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Daniel Shahaf, zsh-workers
  Cc: Xiao Ling XL Chen, Kui K Zhang, Peter Stephenson

Haai,

On Tue, 27 Sep 2022 20:54:46 +0000, "Daniel Shahaf" <d.s@daniel.shahaf.name> wrote:
> -1 on the patch because I don't believe people who disagree with the
> change feel comfortable saying so publicly.

*nods*

So me'll speak up: me's for keeping the current terminology, for the
following reasons--

 0) Me certainly hopes that no-one imagines an actual {master,slave}
    relationship when the words are applied to ptys, hdds, or w/ever. To 
    the degree that they do: they're insufficiently distinguishing
    technical shorthand from unfortunate tedencies in human history
    (and, to a degree, sadly not limited to history).

 1) The terms are entrenched and replacing them generates confusion,
    churn in declarations, etc.

 2) There are no plausible alternatives as far as me can see. The
    proposed {owner,subsidiary} -- and similar -- terms again imply a
    relationship of personal and economic exploitation (just this time
    covered with a mildly fuzzy blanket).

    The politically correct interface terms, {primary,secondary}, imply
    that the limit of the sequence is not 1, which is IMO not helpful
    here either.

    If anything, me'd opt for {dom,sub}, but apart from it probably
    being just as little politically acceptable, that creates confusion
    with existing technical terms (although such confusion is always, to
    a degree, unavoidable).

 3) We have better ways to spend our time. Me probably wouldn't have
    responded if me hadn't just come out of the shower ;)

HTH,

        --zeurkous. 

P.S., OT: Me's been trying to migrate me list membership to me new
          addy, <zeurkous@blaatscaahp.org>. The confirmation message
          never arrived and me attempt to contact the maintainer
          resulted in silence. Can the maintainer please privately
          contact me to sort this out? TIA :)

-- 
Friggin' Machines!


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 30+ messages in thread

* Re: The request of words matter updated
  2022-09-28  6:14           ` Felipe Contreras
@ 2022-09-28 12:16             ` Clinton Bunch
  2022-09-28 13:05               ` zeurkous, zeurkous
  2022-09-29  4:08               ` On the "Words Matter" issue (was Re: The request of words matter updated; quotes deleted) Ellenor Bjornsdottir
  2022-09-28 12:52             ` Re: The request of words matter updated zeurkous, zeurkous
  1 sibling, 2 replies; 30+ messages in thread
From: Clinton Bunch @ 2022-09-28 12:16 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Felipe Contreras, Daniel Shahaf
  Cc: Peter Stephenson, zsh-workers, Xiao Ling XL Chen, Kui K Zhang

On 9/28/2022 1:14 AM, Felipe Contreras wrote:
> On Tue, Sep 27, 2022 at 4:00 PM Daniel Shahaf <d.s@daniel.shahaf.name> wrote:
>> -1 on the patch because I don't believe people who disagree with the
>> change feel comfortable saying so publicly.
> Agreed. I am one of the few people comfortable with disagreeing to
> such changes publicly:
>
> https://felipec.wordpress.com/2020/11/13/git-master/
>
> Plenty of people have sent me private words of encouragement stating
> this master/slave terminology change is nonsense, but they don't dare
> to say so publicly.
>
> Just because the silent majority is silent doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
>
Because they're silent, there is no way to tell if they are a majority.  
Personally, I think the silence comes from the fact 90-95% of people 
just don't care.


These words cause some people pain.  You may think the source of that 
pain is silly, but it doesn't make the pain any less real. (Ask anyone 
who's been clinically depressed about feeling pain other people tell you 
you shouldn't feel)

It's a small change that alleviates pain.  That should be reason enough 
to do it.



^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 30+ messages in thread

* RE: Re: The request of words matter updated
  2022-09-27 21:15           ` Clinton Bunch
  2022-09-27 21:22             ` Clinton Bunch
@ 2022-09-28 12:33             ` zeurkous, zeurkous
  1 sibling, 0 replies; 30+ messages in thread
From: zeurkous, zeurkous @ 2022-09-28 12:33 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Clinton Bunch, zsh-workers

On Tue, 27 Sep 2022 16:15:04 -0500, Clinton Bunch <cdbunch@zentaur.org> wrote:
> For PTYs=C2=A0 I like the terms controller and subsidiary.=C2=A0 It seems=
>  to=20
> describe the relationship better than other suggestions.=C2=A0

BS. See me previous message.

> The use of=
> =20
> superior and inferior as otherwhere suggested strike me as eventually=20
> running into the same problem of being emotionally charged.

These are technical terms. Within context, they are only emotionally
charged for people who underrate the technical meanings of those words.

Next me'll complain that cat(1) is a speciecist name for a program. Or
that biff(1) *really* is out-of-date not just in function, but also in
name, and we should change it promptly. Or that wump(6) is demeaning to
real wumpuses. Or...

Let's not go down that road, people. Please.

       --zeurkous.

-- 
Friggin' Machines!


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 30+ messages in thread

* RE: Re: The request of words matter updated
  2022-09-27 21:22             ` Clinton Bunch
@ 2022-09-28 12:42               ` zeurkous, zeurkous
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 30+ messages in thread
From: zeurkous, zeurkous @ 2022-09-28 12:42 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Clinton Bunch; +Cc: zsh-workers, Xiao Ling XL Chen, Kui K Zhang

On Tue, 27 Sep 2022 16:22:20 -0500, Clinton Bunch <cdbunch@zentaur.org> wrote:
> I will also point out that making it "Somebody Else's Problem" Is a big=20
> part of why we haven't successfully rid ourselves of these terms in over=20
> two decades of realizing they were problematic. Let's not perpetuate the=20
> problem.

The terms are not problematic, except of course in the paranoid
delusions of those who believe.

SEP is a bad attitude to life in general, but a life-preserving strategy
when in a project with limited goals. Without a healthy degree of SEP,
UNIX would have to be maintained as a single piece. While the latter
would be a noble goal, the current situation does not allow for it to be
realized.

Unfortunately.

          --zeurkous.

-- 
Friggin' Machines!


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 30+ messages in thread

* RE: Re: The request of words matter updated
  2022-09-27 21:32           ` Mikael Magnusson
  2022-09-28  6:17             ` Felipe Contreras
@ 2022-09-28 12:47             ` zeurkous, zeurkous
  2022-09-29  8:35             ` Axel Beckert
  2 siblings, 0 replies; 30+ messages in thread
From: zeurkous, zeurkous @ 2022-09-28 12:47 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Mikael Magnusson
  Cc: Peter Stephenson, zsh-workers, Xiao Ling XL Chen, Kui K Zhang,
	Daniel Shahaf

On Tue, 27 Sep 2022 23:32:03 +0200, Mikael Magnusson <mikachu@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 9/27/22, Daniel Shahaf <d.s@daniel.shahaf.name> wrote:
>> -1 on the patch because I don't believe people who disagree with the
>> change feel comfortable saying so publicly.
>
> If a word is so bad that people don't want to say that they want to
> keep it, then we should not keep it.

And that attitude, {ladies,gentlemen,...}, leads to a propagandistic
minority having the ability to dictate the majority.

Sad, isn't it?

        --zeurkous.

-- 
Friggin' Machines!


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 30+ messages in thread

* RE: Re: The request of words matter updated
  2022-09-28  6:14           ` Felipe Contreras
  2022-09-28 12:16             ` Clinton Bunch
@ 2022-09-28 12:52             ` zeurkous, zeurkous
  1 sibling, 0 replies; 30+ messages in thread
From: zeurkous, zeurkous @ 2022-09-28 12:52 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Felipe Contreras
  Cc: Peter Stephenson, zsh-workers, Xiao Ling XL Chen, Kui K Zhang,
	Daniel Shahaf

On Wed, 28 Sep 2022 01:14:55 -0500, Felipe Contreras <felipe.contreras@gmail.com> wrote:
> Just because the silent majority is silent doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

Amen.

Though it does make them all too easy to ignore.

(And then there's the matter of whether the majority, silent or not,
really ought to be our moral guide... far beyond the scope of this list
though.)

        --zeurkous.

-- 
Friggin' Machines!


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 30+ messages in thread

* RE: Re: The request of words matter updated
  2022-09-28  6:30               ` Ellenor Bjornsdottir
@ 2022-09-28 12:57                 ` zeurkous, zeurkous
  2022-09-29  8:23                 ` Lawrence Velázquez
  1 sibling, 0 replies; 30+ messages in thread
From: zeurkous, zeurkous @ 2022-09-28 12:57 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Ellenor Bjornsdottir, zsh-workers

On Wed, 28 Sep 2022 06:30:56 +0000, Ellenor Bjornsdottir <ellenor@umbrellix.net> wrote:
> ------XRFY9ASNODGQ2RMB1ZY98CLW1L91PZ
> Content-Type: text/plain;
>  charset=utf-8
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>
> Will this change actually harm anything - foreign libraries, etc?

Yes. It will create inconsistency and confusion.

> If not, then because it clearly benefits some people, the cost-benefit cal=
> culus favors change=2E
>
> I don't like it, but my opinion doesn't matter because the change harms no=
> thing=2E

Even if you see no harm: that attitude tends to lead to MIME garbage,
the careless dropping of 'Cc:'s, and top-posting.

Luckily, your response doesn't suffer from any of that, does it?

Pfew.

          --zeurkous. 

>
> On 28 September 2022 06:17:59 UTC, Felipe Contreras <felipe=2Econtreras@gm=
> ail=2Ecom> wrote:
>>On Tue, Sep 27, 2022 at 4:39 PM Mikael Magnusson <mikachu@gmail=2Ecom> wr=
> ote:
>>>
>>> On 9/27/22, Daniel Shahaf <d=2Es@daniel=2Eshahaf=2Ename> wrote:
>>> > -1 on the patch because I don't believe people who disagree with the
>>> > change feel comfortable saying so publicly=2E
>>>
>>> If a word is so bad that people don't want to say that they want to
>>> keep it, then we should not keep it=2E
>>
>>There's nothing "bad" about the word a priori=2E If *you* believe it has
>>to be changed, then *you* have the burden of proof=2E
>>
>>Just like any other change=2E
>>
>>--=20
>>Felipe Contreras
>>
>
> --=20
> Ellenor Bjornsdottir (she)
> sysadmin umbrellix=2Enet
> ------XRFY9ASNODGQ2RMB1ZY98CLW1L91PZ
> Content-Type: text/html;
>  charset=utf-8
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>
> <html><head></head><body>Will this change actually harm anything - foreign =
> libraries, etc?<br><br>If not, then because it clearly benefits some people=
> , the cost-benefit calculus favors change=2E<br><br>I don't like it, but my=
>  opinion doesn't matter because the change harms nothing=2E<br><br><div cla=
> ss=3D"gmail_quote">On 28 September 2022 06:17:59 UTC, Felipe Contreras &lt;=
> felipe=2Econtreras@gmail=2Ecom&gt; wrote:<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" =
> style=3D"margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0=2E8ex; border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, =
> 204); padding-left: 1ex;">
> <pre dir=3D"auto" class=3D"k9mail">On Tue, Sep 27, 2022 at 4:39 PM Mikael =
> Magnusson &lt;mikachu@gmail=2Ecom&gt; wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_=
> quote" style=3D"margin: 0pt 0pt 1ex 0=2E8ex; border-left: 1px solid #729fcf=
> ; padding-left: 1ex;"><br> On 9/27/22, Daniel Shahaf &lt;d=2Es@daniel=2Esha=
> haf=2Ename&gt; wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:=
>  0pt 0pt 1ex 0=2E8ex; border-left: 1px solid #ad7fa8; padding-left: 1ex;">-=
> 1 on the patch because I don't believe people who disagree with the<br>chan=
> ge feel comfortable saying so publicly=2E<br></blockquote><br> If a word is=
>  so bad that people don't want to say that they want to<br> keep it, then w=
> e should not keep it=2E<br></blockquote><br>There's nothing "bad" about the=
>  word a priori=2E If *you* believe it has<br>to be changed, then *you* have=
>  the burden of proof=2E<br><br>Just like any other change=2E<br><br><div cl=
> ass=3D"k9mail-signature">-- <br>Felipe Contreras<br><br></div></pre></block=
> quote></div><div style=3D'white-space: pre-wrap'><div class=3D'k9mail-signa=
> ture'>-- <br>Ellenor Bjornsdottir (she)<br>sysadmin umbrellix=2Enet</div></=
> div></body></html>
> ------XRFY9ASNODGQ2RMB1ZY98CLW1L91PZ--
>

-- 
Friggin' Machines!


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 30+ messages in thread

* RE: Re: The request of words matter updated
  2022-09-28 12:16             ` Clinton Bunch
@ 2022-09-28 13:05               ` zeurkous, zeurkous
  2022-09-29  8:49                 ` Axel Beckert
  2022-09-29  4:08               ` On the "Words Matter" issue (was Re: The request of words matter updated; quotes deleted) Ellenor Bjornsdottir
  1 sibling, 1 reply; 30+ messages in thread
From: zeurkous, zeurkous @ 2022-09-28 13:05 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Clinton Bunch
  Cc: Peter Stephenson, zsh-workers, Xiao Ling XL Chen, Kui K Zhang,
	Felipe Contreras, Daniel Shahaf

On Wed, 28 Sep 2022 07:16:16 -0500, Clinton Bunch <cdbunch@zentaur.org> wrote:
> On 9/28/2022 1:14 AM, Felipe Contreras wrote:
> Because they're silent, there is no way to tell if they are a majority.=C2=
> =A0=20
> Personally, I think the silence comes from the fact 90-95% of people=20
> just don't care.

They will care once it's forced down on them. When it's too late. While
IMO it's often stupid to stay silent, they don't deserve such treatment.

> These words cause some people pain.=C2=A0

All words have the potential to cause pain.

> You may think the source of tha=
> t=20
> pain is silly,

Slavery is not a silly matter IMO. That's not the dicussion here
anyways.

> but it doesn't make the pain any less real. (Ask anyone=20
> who's been clinically depressed about feeling pain other people tell you=20
> you shouldn't feel)
>
> It's a small change that alleviates pain.=C2=A0 That should be reason eno=
> ugh=20
> to do it.

As has been explained multiple times, by different people: the change
you are proposing is not small.

And while me's truly sorry if certain technical terms cause you (or
anyone else) pain, depression, or worse: they are technical, and when
taken in context, they have no emotional load beyond what we personally,
and individually, assign to them.

Are you going to try and persuade physicists to drop Schroedinger's Cat,
because randomly gunning down cats is just cruel?

Good luck.

        --zeurkous.

-- 
Friggin' Machines!


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 30+ messages in thread

* Re: The request of words matter updated
  2022-09-27 20:54         ` Daniel Shahaf
                             ` (3 preceding siblings ...)
  2022-09-28 12:08           ` zeurkous, zeurkous
@ 2022-09-28 16:34           ` Peter Stephenson
  2022-09-28 16:42             ` zeurkous, zeurkous
  2022-09-29  8:31           ` Axel Beckert
  5 siblings, 1 reply; 30+ messages in thread
From: Peter Stephenson @ 2022-09-28 16:34 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: zsh-workers; +Cc: Xiao Ling XL Chen, Kui K Zhang

On 27/09/2022 21:54 Daniel Shahaf <d.s@daniel.shahaf.name> wrote:
> I will also point out that tracking the terms used by the formal parameters
> in the callee's header files or documentation, as proposed upthread — is
> a clear, objective criterion; makes the terminology decisions Someone
> Else's Problem; makes the code easier to read; and involves less churn.
> Without advocating for that particular solution or considering what
> downsides it may have, I do wish to say those properties thereof seem
> desirable.

As Lawrence and Bart already noted, there's no good steer here from the
various technical documents, or even vendors' manual pages.  The only
hint in this direction might be to use ptm and pts, which doesn't seem
very elegant or likely to achieve any kind of consensus, so I won't
propose it.

I'm guessing that of those who favour a change there are no major
feelings in favour of any of the various alternative ways of saying "upper"
and "lower"?

Once that's established, perhaps someone could arrange for an online vote
at one of the websites that do that?  Given no technical change results
from any of this, opinion is all we've got, and there's evidently no
sign of a consensus.

Cheers
pws


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 30+ messages in thread

* RE: Re: The request of words matter updated
  2022-09-28 16:34           ` Peter Stephenson
@ 2022-09-28 16:42             ` zeurkous, zeurkous
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 30+ messages in thread
From: zeurkous, zeurkous @ 2022-09-28 16:42 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Peter Stephenson, zsh-workers; +Cc: Xiao Ling XL Chen, Kui K Zhang

On Wed, 28 Sep 2022 17:34:04 +0100 (BST), Peter Stephenson <p.w.stephenson@ntlworld.com> wrote:
> I'm guessing that of those who favour a change there are no major
> feelings in favour of any of the various alternative ways of saying "upper"
> and "lower"?

Or "left" and "right". Or "head" and "tail". Or "straight-angled" and
"diagonal"... each terminology has its own downsides, it seems.

> Once that's established, perhaps someone could arrange for an online vote
> at one of the websites that do that?  Given no technical change results
> from any of this, opinion is all we've got, and there's evidently no
> sign of a consensus.

To me: no consensus -> no change. But perhaps that's too easy.

Either way: me's inclined to call a popular vote on the matter a
pointless waste of time.

And as for the proposed technology: mecan be assured that it would not
require javashi^H^Hcript, cookies, or other such nonsense? And who will
take the time to do it? Who won't have anything better to do...?

        --zeurkous.
 
>
> Cheers
> pws
>

-- 
Friggin' Machines!


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 30+ messages in thread

* Re: The request of words matter updated
  2022-09-27  8:44       ` Peter Stephenson
  2022-09-27 20:54         ` Daniel Shahaf
@ 2022-09-28 20:01         ` Eric Cook
  2022-09-29  8:05           ` Lawrence Velázquez
  1 sibling, 1 reply; 30+ messages in thread
From: Eric Cook @ 2022-09-28 20:01 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: zsh-workers

On 9/27/22 04:44, Peter Stephenson wrote:
>
>> On 27/09/2022 05:22 Bart Schaefer <schaefer@brasslantern.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Sep 26, 2022 at 8:18 PM Lawrence Velázquez <larryv@zsh.org> wrote:
>>>
>>> Illumos uses "manager" and "subsidiary"
>>> AIX uses "controller" and "worker"
>>
>> Well, that's no fun.  It means there's no "term of art" we can adopt.
>> On the other hand, I guess, it means we don't have to worry about
>> confusing future programmers, because they'll already be confused.
>
> My only comment is that if we pick something unique and do the job
> properly this time, then any further update to fit in with standards
> is a 30 second automatic replacement.  So I don't think it's worth
> agonising over.
>
>> In this particular context I'd probably choose something like
>> superior/inferior ... neither subsidiary nor worker really fits what
>> that half of the PTY pair is doing, IMO.  They sound like words chosen
>> for a global search-and-replace over a codebase nobody was willing to
>> actually read.
>
> So e.g. zsuperior and zinferior would give us that ability (but you may
> well be right superior and inferior are good enough --- replacing
> master and slave didn't hit any clashes).
>
> pws
>


Indifference to the change in general

1) wasn't aware of the their existence until this thread.
    which did seem weird, like some automated search happened to find them.

2) not even zpty's documentation in zshmodules(1) refers to the existing terms.

3) as pointed out by Lawrence, the terms aren't even consistency used among operating systems
    so the feigned confusion of these internal variables already exists.

4) It's not similar to changing the default branch in zsh's vcs repo or
    changing listmaster@zsh.org, faqmaster@zsh.org in any way. if the change happens
    within a week it will be forgotten again, if even noticed.
    zpty isn't commonly used from what i can tell, i imagine people looking at its source code
    are even fewer.


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 30+ messages in thread

* On the "Words Matter" issue (was Re: The request of words matter updated; quotes deleted)
  2022-09-28 12:16             ` Clinton Bunch
  2022-09-28 13:05               ` zeurkous, zeurkous
@ 2022-09-29  4:08               ` Ellenor Bjornsdottir
  2022-09-29 10:48                 ` De Zeurkous
  1 sibling, 1 reply; 30+ messages in thread
From: Ellenor Bjornsdottir @ 2022-09-29  4:08 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Clinton Bunch, Daniel Shahaf, zsh-workers
  Cc: Peter Stephenson, Xiao Ling XL Chen, Kui K Zhang

There seems to be three contingents engaging publicly here:
  * what I'll call the IBM parties, who are here on business related
to the Words Matter policy, holding that "master/slave" terminology
is to be avoided when synonymous terminology is available
  * people speaking in support of zsh coming into adherence to the
policy
  * people speaking in opposition to zsh coming into adherence to the
policy

People speaking in support invoke the fact that the words cause pain
for some marginalized people working in tech. I am not the kind of
marginalized person for whom this would matter (I'm not racialized
nor am I a survivor of human trafficking), so I cannot speak to this,
but I will say that this charges the perception of some people who are
as unmarginalized as myself related to this topic.

They also invoke the feeling of shame the opposition feels on public
participation in the debate, as an indication that this is an idea
whose time has come. I don't like this, but I don't think it factors.

One of the two parties I've seen to openly oppose the motion have
invoked the fact that, _a priori_, there's nothing bad about these
words, which is on its face true - if you do not consider the harm
that they can do to a certain marginalized community that I see
underrepresented in tech, possibly due to this reason. The other party
has sent messages to this list that vary between ... not warranting a
response, and where they do warrant a response, being extremely
petty about mail formatting (quoted-printable) to multiple people.
Said second party also invokes the feeling of shame the opposition
feels on the matter as "a propagandistic minority having the ability
to dictate to the majority." Again, I don't think the shame of a
silent majority or minority factors. I think one can do a harms and
benefits analysis using solely practical facts.

The only inconsistency and confusion I can see occurring is if the
words are used in a public interface, and in the first few weeks to
months as people get up to speed on the new, otherwise synonymous
terminology in private interfaces. For public interfaces, a
transitional approach may be appropriate where the deprecated
terminology is used for aliases to the new terminology, and is slated
to be removed at the developer's convenience (which may be never).

To recapitulate somewhat, it appears from previous factual discussion
on the matter that the cost of making this change would be a few
cycles expended in `sed`, temporary perverse merriment as developers
adjust, and nothing else - and the benefit would be that people
triggered by human trafficking terminology would be able to
participate more effectively in zsh development moving forward. The
interface in question is private, so there's no need to worry about
transitioning public interfaces. Plugins that use this code may need
to be updated with version-based ifdefs - but do any plugins use this
code? I am not a developer, so I don't want to weigh in on a matter
that does not affect me, but I hope my analysis is useful for those
who are developers to make a reasoned decision.

-- 
Ellenor Agnes Bjornsdottir (she)
sysadmin umbrellix.net
jabber: ellenor ~on~ umbrellix.net



^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 30+ messages in thread

* Re: The request of words matter updated
  2022-09-28 20:01         ` Eric Cook
@ 2022-09-29  8:05           ` Lawrence Velázquez
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 30+ messages in thread
From: Lawrence Velázquez @ 2022-09-29  8:05 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: zsh-workers; +Cc: Xiao Ling XL Chen, Kui K Zhang

On Wed, Sep 28, 2022, at 4:01 PM, Eric Cook wrote:
> 2) not even zpty's documentation in zshmodules(1) refers to the existing terms.

I thought so too, but it turns out there is a single instance.  I'm
actually surprised there aren't more.

> 4) It's not similar to changing the default branch in zsh's vcs repo or
>     changing listmaster@zsh.org, faqmaster@zsh.org in any way. if the 
> change happens
>     within a week it will be forgotten again, if even noticed.

Yup.  As far as I can tell -- and as Chen Xiao Ling noted in their
original message -- nothing we've been discussing is externally
visible (other than the aforementioned bit of documentation).

>     zpty isn't commonly used from what i can tell, i imagine people 
> looking at its source code
>     are even fewer.

If cosmic rays were to spontaneously apply Peter's patch, it would
take literally years for anyone to notice.

https://sourceforge.net/p/zsh/code/ci/master/log/?path=/Src/Modules/zpty.c

-- 
vq


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 30+ messages in thread

* Re: The request of words matter updated
  2022-09-28  6:30               ` Ellenor Bjornsdottir
  2022-09-28 12:57                 ` zeurkous, zeurkous
@ 2022-09-29  8:23                 ` Lawrence Velázquez
  1 sibling, 0 replies; 30+ messages in thread
From: Lawrence Velázquez @ 2022-09-29  8:23 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Ellenor Bjornsdottir; +Cc: zsh-workers

On Wed, Sep 28, 2022, at 2:30 AM, Ellenor Bjornsdottir wrote:
> Will this change actually harm anything - foreign libraries, etc?

As far as I can tell, no.  The renamed variables are function-local.

-- 
vq


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 30+ messages in thread

* Re: The request of words matter updated
  2022-09-27 20:54         ` Daniel Shahaf
                             ` (4 preceding siblings ...)
  2022-09-28 16:34           ` Peter Stephenson
@ 2022-09-29  8:31           ` Axel Beckert
  5 siblings, 0 replies; 30+ messages in thread
From: Axel Beckert @ 2022-09-29  8:31 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: zsh-workers

Hi,

On Tue, Sep 27, 2022 at 08:54:46PM +0000, Daniel Shahaf wrote:
> -1 on the patch because I don't believe people who disagree with the
> change feel comfortable saying so publicly.

Full Ack.

Actually I see no reason to change _non-surfacing_ variables at all.

		Kind regards, Axel
-- 
PGP: 2FF9CD59612616B5      /~\  Plain Text Ribbon Campaign, http://arc.pasp.de/
Mail: abe@deuxchevaux.org  \ /  Say No to HTML in E-Mail and Usenet
Mail+Jabber: abe@noone.org  X
https://axel.beckert.ch/   / \  I love long mails: https://email.is-not-s.ms/


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 30+ messages in thread

* Re: The request of words matter updated
  2022-09-27 21:32           ` Mikael Magnusson
  2022-09-28  6:17             ` Felipe Contreras
  2022-09-28 12:47             ` zeurkous, zeurkous
@ 2022-09-29  8:35             ` Axel Beckert
  2 siblings, 0 replies; 30+ messages in thread
From: Axel Beckert @ 2022-09-29  8:35 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: zsh-workers

Hi,

On Tue, Sep 27, 2022 at 11:32:03PM +0200, Mikael Magnusson wrote:
> On 9/27/22, Daniel Shahaf <d.s@daniel.shahaf.name> wrote:
> > -1 on the patch because I don't believe people who disagree with the
> > change feel comfortable saying so publicly.
> 
> If a word is so bad that people don't want to say that they want to
> keep it, then we should not keep it.

IMHO it's the opposite way: If a change causes people to stay silent
because they fear a hate campaign if they say that they don't like
such a change, then that change shouldn't be done alone for that.

		Kind regards, Axel
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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 30+ messages in thread

* Re: Re: The request of words matter updated
  2022-09-28 13:05               ` zeurkous, zeurkous
@ 2022-09-29  8:49                 ` Axel Beckert
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 30+ messages in thread
From: Axel Beckert @ 2022-09-29  8:49 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: zsh-workers

Hi,

On Wed, Sep 28, 2022 at 01:05:43PM +0000, zeurkous@blaatscaahp.org wrote:
> Slavery is not a silly matter IMO.

Ack. But slavery has no real relation to these terms anymore. They're
about processes and sockets and whatever, not about people.

Child processes are also not the result of two processes engaging with
each other, yet they're named "child" because child and parent are
also technical terms for quite a long time now, too.

> That's not the dicussion here anyways.

Exactly. And it's not what these terms are about.

They're technical terms. Not related to people.

> And while me's truly sorry if certain technical terms cause you (or
> anyone else) pain, depression, or worse: they are technical, and when
> taken in context, they have no emotional load beyond what we personally,
> and individually, assign to them.

Thanks.

		Kind regards, Axel
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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 30+ messages in thread

* RE: On the "Words Matter" issue (was Re: The request of words matter updated; quotes deleted)
  2022-09-29  4:08               ` On the "Words Matter" issue (was Re: The request of words matter updated; quotes deleted) Ellenor Bjornsdottir
@ 2022-09-29 10:48                 ` De Zeurkous
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 30+ messages in thread
From: De Zeurkous @ 2022-09-29 10:48 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Ellenor Bjornsdottir
  Cc: Peter Stephenson, Xiao Ling XL Chen, Kui K Zhang, Clinton Bunch,
	Daniel Shahaf, zsh-workers

On Thu, 29 Sep 2022 04:08:21 +0000, Ellenor Bjornsdottir <ellenor@umbrellix.net> wrote:
> There seems to be three contingents engaging publicly here:
>  =C2=A0* what I'll call the IBM parties, who are here on business related
> to the Words Matter policy, holding that "master/slave" terminology
> is to be avoided when synonymous terminology is available
>  =C2=A0* people speaking in support of zsh coming into adherence to the
> policy
>   * people speaking in opposition to zsh coming into adherence to the
> policy

That appears to be an accurate summary, except that you forgot one
contigent--
   * people speaking out that they don't care whether or not zsh comes
     into adherence with the policy

> People speaking in support invoke the fact that the words cause pain
> for some marginalized people working in tech. I am not the kind of
> marginalized person for whom this would matter (I'm not racialized
> nor am I a survivor of human trafficking),

Some would say that being a girl in "tech" (that word is so overused by
the mainstream that it has become near-meaningless -- hell, they've been
referring to utterly bureaucratic matters as "technical"!) puts one in a
marginalized position. (Me's not sure me agrees with that one, however
-- don't shoot the messenger.)

> so I cannot speak to this,
> but I will say that this charges the perception of some people who are
> as unmarginalized as myself related to this topic.

Me's not sure what that's supposed to mean.

> They also invoke the feeling of shame the opposition feels on public
> participation in the debate, as an indication that this is an idea
> whose time has come. I don't like this, but I don't think it factors.

If that's so: it doesn't work on me. Nor does it seem to work on most
main contributors.

> One of the two parties I've seen to openly oppose the motion have
> invoked the fact that, _a priori_, there's nothing bad about these
> words, which is on its face true - if you do not consider the harm
> that they can do to a certain marginalized community that I see
> underrepresented in tech, possibly due to this reason.

Technological affairs are by definition harsh, as technology can't be
fooled. That by itself requires people, black or purple, cat or human,
to be rather thick-skinned (or is the latter now a racial appellation,
too? :x).

> The other party
> has sent messages to this list that vary between ... not warranting a
> response, and where they do warrant a response, being extremely
> petty about mail formatting (quoted-printable) to multiple people.

Lol. Defending the most basic of technical standards is now "petty"? 8)7

(Your off-list message was base64-encoded, btw. Medid, of course, not
bother to decode yet another layer.)

> Said second party also invokes the feeling of shame the opposition
> feels on the matter as "a propagandistic minority having the ability
> to dictate to the majority." Again, I don't think the shame of a
> silent majority or minority factors. I think one can do a harms and
> benefits analysis using solely practical facts.

Yes. But projects like these run (more or less) on consensus. If people
are shamed into not expressing their honest views, false consensuses
will form.  That would be a significant loss to the project.

> The only inconsistency and confusion I can see occurring is if the
> words are used in a public interface, and in the first few weeks to
> months as people get up to speed on the new, otherwise synonymous
> terminology in private interfaces. For public interfaces, a
> transitional approach may be appropriate where the deprecated
> terminology is used for aliases to the new terminology, and is slated
> to be removed at the developer's convenience (which may be never).

Look, instead of wasting time on all that, have you considered that the
design of the pty system itself might be flawed? That it may well be
more appropriate to have general loopback devices, that can be put to
many more uses. In that case, the term "master" would naturally be
replaced with something like "server", and "slave" with something like
"client" (read up on microkernels if you're not familiar with the
concept).

While that would be far beyond the purview of the zsh project alone, it
would at least give a good opportunity to change the terms. And hell,
it's been decades since ptys were zeroth implemented. It's about time
for a revision (or, as me's proposing: the development of a more
general mechanism that would eclipse both ptys and the "problematic"
terms).

Why not focus on that, instead of trying to nail Jell-O(tm) to a tree
here....?

> To recapitulate somewhat, it appears from previous factual discussion
> on the matter that the cost of making this change would be a few
> cycles expended in `sed`, temporary perverse merriment as developers
> adjust, and nothing else - and the benefit would be that people
> triggered by human trafficking terminology would be able to
> participate more effectively in zsh development moving forward.

"human trafficking terminology"?

You aren't serious, are you?

Ever heard of wage slavery?

> The
> interface in question is private,

Yet, it has to align with the public one to be meaningful.

> so there's no need to worry about
> transitioning public interfaces. Plugins that use this code may need
> to be updated with version-based ifdefs - but do any plugins use this
> code? I am not a developer, so I don't want to weigh in on a matter
> that does not affect me, but I hope my analysis is useful for those
> who are developers to make a reasoned decision.

Yes. It makes it quite clear that it's all a bunch of windbaggery[0],
perpetuated by those seeking attention for its own sake, and we have
better ways to spend our time.

Baai,

         --zeurkous. 

[0] Too bad me's the bigger windbag, eh?

>
> --=20
> Ellenor Agnes Bjornsdottir (she)
> sysadmin umbrellix.net
> jabber: ellenor ~on~ umbrellix.net
>
>

-- 
Friggin' Machines!


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 30+ messages in thread

end of thread, other threads:[~2022-09-29 11:22 UTC | newest]

Thread overview: 30+ messages (download: mbox.gz / follow: Atom feed)
-- links below jump to the message on this page --
2022-09-19  6:52 The request of words matter updated Xiao Ling XL Chen
2022-09-19 18:20 ` Bart Schaefer
2022-09-27  3:15   ` Lawrence Velázquez
2022-09-27  4:22     ` Bart Schaefer
2022-09-27  8:44       ` Peter Stephenson
2022-09-27 20:54         ` Daniel Shahaf
2022-09-27 21:15           ` Clinton Bunch
2022-09-27 21:22             ` Clinton Bunch
2022-09-28 12:42               ` zeurkous, zeurkous
2022-09-28 12:33             ` zeurkous, zeurkous
2022-09-27 21:32           ` Mikael Magnusson
2022-09-28  6:17             ` Felipe Contreras
2022-09-28  6:30               ` Ellenor Bjornsdottir
2022-09-28 12:57                 ` zeurkous, zeurkous
2022-09-29  8:23                 ` Lawrence Velázquez
2022-09-28 12:47             ` zeurkous, zeurkous
2022-09-29  8:35             ` Axel Beckert
2022-09-28  6:14           ` Felipe Contreras
2022-09-28 12:16             ` Clinton Bunch
2022-09-28 13:05               ` zeurkous, zeurkous
2022-09-29  8:49                 ` Axel Beckert
2022-09-29  4:08               ` On the "Words Matter" issue (was Re: The request of words matter updated; quotes deleted) Ellenor Bjornsdottir
2022-09-29 10:48                 ` De Zeurkous
2022-09-28 12:52             ` Re: The request of words matter updated zeurkous, zeurkous
2022-09-28 12:08           ` zeurkous, zeurkous
2022-09-28 16:34           ` Peter Stephenson
2022-09-28 16:42             ` zeurkous, zeurkous
2022-09-29  8:31           ` Axel Beckert
2022-09-28 20:01         ` Eric Cook
2022-09-29  8:05           ` Lawrence Velázquez

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