Re: [RFC PATCH 3/3] FAQ: sync newuser-install

[Felipe Contreras <felipe.contreras@gmail.com>]

On Fri, Aug 26, 2022 at 10:55 PM Lawrence Velázquez <larryv@zsh.org> wrote:
> On Fri, Aug 26, 2022, at 11:18 PM, Felipe Contreras wrote:
> > On Fri, Aug 26, 2022 at 7:31 PM Bart Schaefer <schaefer@brasslantern.com> wrote:
> >> On Fri, Aug 26, 2022 at 5:23 PM Mikael Magnusson <mikachu@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> >
> >> > Besides that, the whole thing is way too
> >> > disruptive just for you to save 2 lines in your .zshrc.
> >>
> >> Pretty much exactly that.  The argument FOR doing something has to be
> >> persuasive, rebutting specific counterpoints is only part of that.  I
> >> haven't seen anyone yet supporting your position without modification.
> >
> > I'm not sure what you mean. The argument in favor is right there: it
> > potentially reduces the number of options required in the
> > configuration.
>
> We know what your argument is.  Some of us just are not persuaded
> by it.

Yes, but "we" are zsh veterans. We don't need a simpler .zshrc, but
newcomers do.

There's a bias called "the curse of knowledge" [1] where individuals
assume other individuals have their same level of knowledge, therefore
certain explanations are not needed. For example an expert in calculus
might think there's no need to comment about the chain rule, because
"everybody" knows that, right? Or an expert in statistics presuming
everyone knows the CLT.

The truth is not everyone knows what you know.

We also forget how difficult it was to learn something, like writing,
driving a car, or using git.

You may think HISTFILE, SAVEHIST and HISTSIZE are self-explanatory,
but the fact is most people need to read the documentation, and even
then they end up confused. A few days ago I replied to a person on
reddit who had a configuration with HISTSIZE bigger than SAVEHIST.

> > But if you are an 18yo kid who just installed zsh, a configuration of
> > 3 lines vs. a configuration of 1 line makes a difference of 67%.
> > That's quite a lot.
>
> It's not a lot.  It's still two lines.  Using an impressive-looking
> percentage doesn't change this.

It's not a lot to you, because you already know what those two lines do.

Nobody is going to write those two lines for a newcomer, he will have
to read two entries in the manual to understand what those two lines
do, and even then might not necessarily get it.

7 lines of C code to print a "hello world" might not be a lot to you,
but a person who doesn't know C sees it differently.

> > A better experience for new users is just better. The
> > `zsh-newuser-install` script is a step in the right direction, but in
> > my view it shouldn't be necessary. Running zsh with no configuration
> > should do a decent job for most people by default.
> >
> > The ideal minimal configuration that does a good enough job for most
> > people should be *zero* lines. Even if we never get there, any line
> > saved is a step in the right direction.
>
> If we were starting from a blank slate, I'm sure more of us would
> be on board.  As it is, there are tradeoffs regarding compatibility
> and interactions with existing functionality.  You seem to not care
> about that and want "a better experience for new users" at all cost,
> but we don't have to agree.

The tradeoffs depend on the implementation, which is currently under discussion.

If I didn't care about tradeoffs why would I be exploring different options?

Plus, so far I haven't seen anybody mention any "tradeoff" to SAVEHIST=-1.

Cheers.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curse_of_knowledge

-- 
Felipe Contreras