From: Felipe Contreras <felipe.contreras@gmail.com>
To: Roman Perepelitsa <roman.perepelitsa@gmail.com>
Cc: Zsh hackers list <zsh-workers@zsh.org>
Subject: Re: Bug with unset variables
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2020 12:46:53 -0600 [thread overview]
Message-ID: <CAMP44s09or4ZtTiPW8yz8K+jpVqFKQVZtQnNUfA0zVda5zFH-g@mail.gmail.com> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <CAN=4vMpGEfp6t3BKogOz+WM-EROaU6MTuodaPYdAeqsQiTOQ5Q@mail.gmail.com>
On Thu, Nov 12, 2020 at 2:46 AM Roman Perepelitsa
<roman.perepelitsa@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Wed, Nov 11, 2020 at 9:42 PM Felipe Contreras
> <felipe.contreras@gmail.com> wrote:
> > In all these it should be obvious what would be the sensible default, but this:
> >
> > typeset var
>
> Both bash and zsh are consistent. Regardless of the presence or
> absence of a storage specifier, bash leaves the variable unset while
> zsh sets it to the "natural" value of the parameter's storage type. By
> natural I mean neutral w.r.t. +=. If `typeset -i var` was setting
> `var` to zero while `typeset var` was leaving it unset, that would be
> inconsistent. In my opinion this would be worse than the behavior of
> bash and zsh.
No. Zsh is not consistent. I did not type /typeset var=''/, I typed
/typeset var/.
> The fact that unset parameters are also called "null" in ksh/bash/zsh
> invites confusion when comparing them to languages that can have
> parameters with null *values*. Those null values are first-class
> citizens. You can pass them as arguments to functions, store them in
> arrays, etc. Shells don't have null *values*, they just have unset
> parameters.
This is distinction without a difference, like saying we are not lost,
we just don't know where we are. Conceptually it is the same thing,
you are just using a different word for it. It's wordplay.
An unset variable is for all intents and purposes a variable with a null value.
> Most languages (in fact, all languages I know) either don't have the
> notion of an unset variable with function scope, or automatically give
> all declared variables values. The closest equivalent to ksh/bash/zsh
> I'm aware of is elisp because it also has dynamic typing and dynamic
> scope. elisp has the same notion of an unset variable as ksh/bash/zsh
> (they are called void in elisp). You can declare local variables with
> `let` and unset them with `makunbound`. These behave like `typeset`
> and `unset` in zsh -- in order to create an unset variable with
> function scope, you need to declare it and then unset. Declaring the
> variable without value won't do.
So you don't know JavaScript (one of the most popular languages today)?
> var v
> typeof v
'undefined'
Even in Python and Ruby the way you "declare" variables without a type
is by setting them to the equivalent of the null value. This has
*exactly* the same effect as "local x". Once again it's a distinction
without a difference.
In Swift you can declare a variable with the type "Any", and by
default it has the nil value.
Virtually all languages have a way of declaring a variable with a
local scope, and *all* of them (including shell) have an idiom to do
it without assigning an empty string (except zsh).
> In sum, what zsh does makes sense to me and feels natural and
> consistent with other languages I know.
Carrying luggage without wheels also felt natural.
Humans can get used to anything.
You cannot tell me that if I originally have this:
func () {
[[ -n "$1" ]] && var=$1
dosomething ${var-other}
}
And I want to change the scope of the variable, so it's not set
globally (which can be done in plenty of languages), and then I do
this:
func () {
typeset var
[[ -n "$1" ]] && var=$1
dosomething ${var-other}
}
It makes sense to *change* the behavior of the code.
Can you?
> That isn't to say that I
> consider the behavior of ksh/bash incorrect. It's a bit surprising but
> sensible. I could definitely get used to it. The strongest argument
> for changing zsh is consistency with ksh and bash. The strongest
> argument against it is that it'll break a lot of existing zsh code.
> It's not my call but to me this looks like a no-go.
This is a false dichotomy.
Adding a setopt option for the new behavior doesn't break a lot of
existing zsh code.
Cheers.
--
Felipe Contreras
next prev parent reply other threads:[~2020-11-12 18:47 UTC|newest]
Thread overview: 53+ messages / expand[flat|nested] mbox.gz Atom feed top
2020-11-11 15:57 Felipe Contreras
2020-11-11 16:13 ` Roman Perepelitsa
2020-11-11 16:56 ` Felipe Contreras
2020-11-11 17:02 ` Roman Perepelitsa
2020-11-11 18:03 ` Felipe Contreras
2020-11-11 18:16 ` Roman Perepelitsa
2020-11-11 20:42 ` Felipe Contreras
2020-11-12 0:20 ` Mikael Magnusson
2020-11-12 1:10 ` Felipe Contreras
2020-11-12 8:45 ` Roman Perepelitsa
2020-11-12 10:47 ` Peter Stephenson
2020-11-12 18:48 ` Bart Schaefer
2020-11-12 19:49 ` Felipe Contreras
2020-11-12 18:46 ` Felipe Contreras [this message]
2020-11-12 19:10 ` Roman Perepelitsa
2020-11-12 21:08 ` Felipe Contreras
2020-11-13 8:51 ` Roman Perepelitsa
2020-11-14 0:52 ` Felipe Contreras
2020-11-14 5:41 ` Roman Perepelitsa
2020-11-16 19:41 ` Felipe Contreras
2020-11-16 20:22 ` Roman Perepelitsa
2020-11-17 20:28 ` Felipe Contreras
2020-11-18 22:45 ` Daniel Shahaf
2020-11-22 1:20 ` Felipe Contreras
2020-11-23 4:00 ` Daniel Shahaf
2020-11-23 6:18 ` Felipe Contreras
2020-11-19 2:59 ` Bart Schaefer
2020-11-22 1:50 ` Felipe Contreras
2020-11-17 20:54 ` Bart Schaefer
2020-11-22 1:49 ` Felipe Contreras
2020-11-23 6:48 ` Bart Schaefer
2020-11-23 7:26 ` Felipe Contreras
2020-11-23 20:26 ` Bart Schaefer
2020-11-23 23:39 ` Felipe Contreras
2020-11-24 0:52 ` Bart Schaefer
2020-11-25 8:46 ` Felipe Contreras
2020-11-27 15:44 ` Daniel Shahaf
2020-11-27 20:49 ` Felipe Contreras
2020-11-27 20:59 ` Daniel Shahaf
2020-11-27 21:33 ` Bart Schaefer
2020-11-27 23:37 ` Daniel Shahaf
2020-11-27 23:45 ` Bart Schaefer
2020-11-28 0:24 ` Bart Schaefer
2020-11-28 7:32 ` Bart Schaefer
2020-11-28 12:05 ` Felipe Contreras
2020-11-12 19:26 ` Bart Schaefer
2020-11-12 21:48 ` Felipe Contreras
2020-11-13 22:17 ` Bart Schaefer
2020-11-14 0:58 ` Felipe Contreras
2020-11-11 18:36 ` Bart Schaefer
2020-11-11 21:08 ` Felipe Contreras
2020-11-11 17:02 ` Peter Stephenson
2020-11-11 18:05 ` Felipe Contreras
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