From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.4 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_SIGNED,DKIM_VALID, DKIM_VALID_AU,FREEMAIL_FROM,MAILING_LIST_MULTI,RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 2727 invoked from network); 8 Oct 2022 08:41:49 -0000 Received: from zero.zsh.org (2a02:898:31:0:48:4558:7a:7368) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 8 Oct 2022 08:41:49 -0000 ARC-Seal: i=1; cv=none; a=rsa-sha256; d=zsh.org; s=rsa-20210803; t=1665218509; b=EWRbCWjov8vF3L8TRtcwLkI3m+Q/PThIbd8zZLFmnnqMFjVWWV0K34Y0eQ/seXU9IaZ9sLqCvr f1pduFcfWsaya/RGSxCoz1UcbClbkmtj/umxDMWAb45h9qfiqUOFjNOeToQR95sAs/Ts0BTLYU 9hXv/8YvIhR8oRL8wGXWfWTdngGp0E7TheM7NjZZAHOYz2UDFi+LttQjyK9I6ajb0UzUcL45Zv xLn7lu/K3I8IjPgzrVlK+8KLgzmsq7/Duidzm5bGg2lZfbxzrmzRkKUcS6uT8iw5vg7JSpZgS8 zHZeoQD8eKl8487HNpiqgz/NFIR2vDvo/2AJjSf4wQ5gmw==; ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; zsh.org; iprev=pass (mail-ed1-f42.google.com) smtp.remote-ip=209.85.208.42; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20210112 header.a=rsa-sha256; dmarc=pass header.from=gmail.com; arc=none ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed; d=zsh.org; s=rsa-20210803; t=1665218509; bh=dsX9wspxG5q18dpzjErheYAkUh59N1wqaMWas53oUk8=; h=List-Archive:List-Owner:List-Post:List-Unsubscribe:List-Subscribe:List-Help: List-Id:Sender:Content-Type:Cc:To:Subject:Message-ID:Date:From:In-Reply-To: References:MIME-Version:DKIM-Signature:DKIM-Signature; b=aos9hpAE5hhELPcMpw1YN5FCNdw+WciH0Hyoi0KC1e8Y8RWs7MCRo1ruP05Sl7r0gbl37ZKKDb gGFNn4EhLOd4QTZlYz+ZmsrVHRfTZjSVl0v3GY4a0aj6/CMbZARf9SfJDosIe4rQ3CL75y/aJ7 JQ0qbXVz4QvWFxZ3aWWFH5ijXOk5rMz2OZdFHt9aap6szmAO1tihroxN7tsN0uuGHtc3MGdstE JtPhhNzCLOXfsEeDwIgpQLjjx8sLeoYLhiuLG6olazO+3duJa5a+uDKY5rD1WsJWUKaom6weOi chODcGrkEadYrQdrQZUscfMNyhTrwwsNLL8Wt14Cdobn0A==; DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=zsh.org; s=rsa-20210803; h=List-Archive:List-Owner:List-Post:List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe:List-Help:List-Id:Sender:Content-Type:Cc:To:Subject:Message-ID :Date:From:In-Reply-To:References:MIME-Version:Reply-To: Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-ID:Content-Description:Resent-Date: Resent-From:Resent-Sender:Resent-To:Resent-Cc:Resent-Message-ID; bh=u45dfYY9fnFnkT+98Mwe7SBDiLJwWByaw0a650LWTe8=; b=Vy384H6TueeoRZgxhrRD40RSJz nsm61B8NvRO9i5etIgDvPAPrTQJzp5JApfVLWpfPvds9VpOqHg6Yv5LTTYJbMztN765Um45deKiZj HcLiuHWhFiqLBeksmRSQ8rZZWynlxNPCsbXAdbV3Oq73ANDSSzbCYd4lTr9m+84NzhmoTPLK3jQ4v iXBN0q8TX3rjzXqJhze6eph1jQqD3V5i+nsnFCU5wmZa6f0f0kLR65mmtHr1eZferMbjWrjHWo4b8 hNYuKkyMO5yA+zNz3X/bBiLU0D4SYrlonjl1DeCTqTf2kn9WtuUUCyV9k01bWTU0YAVnP6C0fEqJ2 ZIET+UtA==; Received: by zero.zsh.org with local id 1oh5P2-000E73-O6; Sat, 08 Oct 2022 08:41:48 +0000 Authentication-Results: zsh.org; iprev=pass (mail-ed1-f42.google.com) smtp.remote-ip=209.85.208.42; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20210112 header.a=rsa-sha256; dmarc=pass header.from=gmail.com; arc=none Received: from mail-ed1-f42.google.com ([209.85.208.42]:34451) by zero.zsh.org with esmtps (TLS1.3:TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) id 1oh5Om-000DmV-3c; Sat, 08 Oct 2022 08:41:32 +0000 Received: by mail-ed1-f42.google.com with SMTP id s30so9847159eds.1 for ; Sat, 08 Oct 2022 01:41:32 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=u45dfYY9fnFnkT+98Mwe7SBDiLJwWByaw0a650LWTe8=; b=oEuSrRVQm1ls/Dt8mWpLVSo5S2e+BVRB68mrNo240d0SnOdKKmyAwDoOloXuUhhA3C E+og7lAH7NhcX/kna/+g9cNnNLlDxVKkc5Lv7/vVlkPgH1wgAjRzFvxyh5s7qRoFqvHG 85ScmrAi8FE6ReKP3th6f8Hp0Vu0smRpVwymR98E14CH0wcJKDSLZoN2JWJNN8izA7MQ V31D7rGRabMGYl3+w5W14d9Rx0Us2nuYrI93wqEzOiFafaNFvdA9uu6bogkP9ZZjn35p 2VxTAenn6kgJpqSE5GXSCWmeoC2Zxm62jfKsKL6NbPhNc2voWW6sCcfKj+VWSGcWGIAe gs9g== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=u45dfYY9fnFnkT+98Mwe7SBDiLJwWByaw0a650LWTe8=; b=NUJrypshU5LS7poWnIYZrm10/rOj8wNqs1rEJ0AwFGn98hD6svx3WdLW2mXhRIQ9Q3 PHJHor6zo1WAlz8MjeJVXMh1aqULXjw/kt8uQAYXl/VFbwSnt0RpNcwv9GwWORGKNJ87 RHuQgPiHq+jNTgEe8uXH4BkDKeofFUuqLS49Q0/kUDQVxTQhSCO2pEdBmpnKRoG31WIy m6A/RW7TutjIzrmfJD7T8+ixIm0EZg9MAwlNFC/sAvYjsFofPSpOrBhPE66kzrPhYxmQ hyndOVbZBt+kfMeN8MWT2OCBrVRSpMM+a5fDqCeXUGPEd2P2bn0vpCaKSgjrwgkbh1Me veLQ== X-Gm-Message-State: ACrzQf1UIqUeVBEvlNt14fAfSf0LqgrYTvRWG33JJxlPQAWkctnOQh/e 0J0PuzGoZB3TYuCW9gotgy0HUqB0OfeKtJxzEa/CeuloCYSTww== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AMsMyM6r8tW/U8l51Dtm2nEVjFFWqUuxJV9WCre7e5CIOJ/6ktcKNJMcUlTMufsgUiarRfvlDlq0z9fv0hVMHULktmo= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6402:1ccd:b0:459:aa70:9e12 with SMTP id ds13-20020a0564021ccd00b00459aa709e12mr8185735edb.206.1665218491722; Sat, 08 Oct 2022 01:41:31 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <6e0e440b-8e26-4a15-8f69-7b393aa6ff13@app.fastmail.com> <1142471274.1562947.1664268254401@mail.virginmedia.com> <9cf82892-e90a-4404-8b56-04b0046b9165@app.fastmail.com> <95fa0bd2-be50-20c9-612a-69a5625270fe@umbrellix.net> In-Reply-To: From: Felipe Contreras Date: Sat, 8 Oct 2022 03:41:20 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: On the "Words Matter" issue (was Re: The request of words matter updated; quotes deleted) To: Bart Schaefer Cc: zsh-workers@zsh.org, Ellenor Bjornsdottir , Clinton Bunch , Xiao Ling XL Chen , Kui K Zhang Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Seq: 50747 Archived-At: X-Loop: zsh-workers@zsh.org Errors-To: zsh-workers-owner@zsh.org Precedence: list Precedence: bulk Sender: zsh-workers-request@zsh.org X-no-archive: yes List-Id: List-Help: , List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Owner: List-Archive: On Thu, Sep 29, 2022 at 11:34 PM Bart Schaefer wrote: > > Thoughts and questions. > > I see a number of people have capitalized "Words Matter". I also find > it interesting that this thread was initiated by IBM employees in > China who are apparently not regular participants in zsh-workers or > zsh-users. Is there an IBM corporate initiative called "Words Matter" > that led to this discussion being opened at this particular time? As > has been mentioned, this topic has been around a long time (2007 at > least; https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/masterslave/). > > Obviously the term "master" has definitions and connotations that > reference skill level, origin of concept or data, etc. Those > connotations are typically clear from context. On the other hand, the > word "slave" always refers to subservience and captivity (whether or > not accepted by "consenting adults"), and therefore carries the > emotional baggage that also attaches to "master" when the words are > paired. (The Snopes article is some evidence that this is not just a > "white knight" issue.) > > Arguments focused on those other connotations of "master" are missing > the point. Whether or not one thinks emotional baggage is being > self-righteously exaggerated or is a valid basis to make a technical > change, it can't just be waved away with "but that shouldn't matter in > this abstraction." If they weren't evocative, those words wouldn't > have been chosen to begin with. All good points and questions, but I have to point out a fact of our cultural zeitgeist. Today a person saying the n-word with certain skin pigmentation would be labelled a racist, whereas a person with a different skin pigmentation would have no problem. A person opining about abortion who happens to be male would be told to shut up, whereas a female never would. A woman wearing inappropriate clothes would be criticized, but not a trans woman. My point is that in today's society superficial features of your identity do matter: the color of your skin, your sexual orientation, genitals, etc. So, as a cis whilte male my opinion objectively does not matter. Which is why if I say "I have no problem with the term 'master'", nobody cares. On the other hand if a black person says "I have a problem with the term 'master'", everyone cares. The problem is that **not a single** black person has claimed to have a problem with the term "master". Have they? Our sense of empathy has been emotionally blackmailed to have sympathy for these hypothetical people that do not exist. We are bending over backwards thinking about an intrusive change that benefits *no one*, because we are told some oppressed minority might benefit. But this doesn't change the fundamentals of logic: he who makes the claim has the burden of proof. The people who are proposing the change have the burden of proof. Has anyone proposing the change brought forward a black person who finds the term personally offensive? We should not be listening to people being offended *by proxy* saying "I think some people will find the term offensive". Does anybody find the term personally and directly offensive themselves? -- Felipe Contreras