From: Roman Perepelitsa <roman.perepelitsa@gmail.com>
To: Felipe Contreras <felipe.contreras@gmail.com>
Cc: Zsh hackers list <zsh-workers@zsh.org>
Subject: Re: Bug with unset variables
Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2020 06:41:08 +0100 [thread overview]
Message-ID: <CAN=4vMqr-MBuzikqkSJEnY5=hW6xjv_TcW_paZV9oKEXnDsmrw@mail.gmail.com> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <CAMP44s15VJnjUmkXg6t2UgbCwN4M37Mfg7_URgvyAv6aVNs1wA@mail.gmail.com>
On Sat, Nov 14, 2020 at 1:52 AM Felipe Contreras
<felipe.contreras@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> In JavaScript if you don't declare foo, accessing it gives you the
> value of "undefined", and if you declare it and "unset" it, it also
> gives you "undefined".
Here's what I'm getting in Chrome console:
console.log(foo)
Uncaught ReferenceError: foo is not defined
foo = undefined
console.log(foo)
undefined
Is this behavior non-standard?
> You just don't want to accept they are functionally the same because
> you don't want them to be the same.
Let's keep the discussion limited to the subject matter of programming
languages.
> Lisp doesn't allow defining variables without a value.
Here's what I'm getting in GNU Emacs 26.3:
(defun foo ()
(let ((var))
var))
(defun bar ()
(let ((var))
(makunbound 'var)
var))
(foo)
nil
(bar)
*** Eval error *** Symbol’s value as variable is void: var
A variable declared without a value gets the value of nil. You can
pass nil around like any other value.
> you have avoided some of my strongest arguments, for example this:
>
> func () {
> [[ -n "$1" ]] && var=$1
> dosomething ${var-other}
> }
>
> func () {
> typeset var
> [[ -n "$1" ]] && var=$1
> dosomething ${var-other}
> }
>
> You have never explained how it makes sense that adding that extra
> line changes the behavior.
I thought you were arguing that the behavior of `typeset var` in
ksh/bash makes sense while in zsh it doesn't. However, in the example
you've given above adding `typeset var` to func changes the function's
behavior in all shells. What am I missing?
> > Moreover, [in Lua] variables to which nil has been assigned are
> > indistinguishable from variables that have never been declared.
> > "Variable foo is nil" has the same meaning as "variable foo does not
> > exist". Like in shells and unlike JavaScript.
>
> Exactly the same thing as in JavaScript, just s/nil/undefined/.
If you try to print a variable that hasn't been defined, you'll get an
error in JavaScript and "nil" in Lua.
> Either way, "local x" in Lua does exactly the same thing as it does in Bash.
That was my point. Originally I said I didn't know of any language
that does what ksh/bash does but then I realized that Lua could fit
the bill, so I mentioned it. To be more specific, I was looking for a
language that 1) allows you to declare variables without specifying
their values; 2) allows you to unset/unbind/undeclare variables; 3)
the effect of declaring a variable and immediately unsetting it is
equivalent to declaring a variable without specifying the initial
value.
FWIW, one of my gripes with Lua is that accessing an undeclared
variable gives you nil. If it was an error instead (which I would
prefer), Lua wouldn't satisfy the 3rd requirement I've listed above,
so it wouldn't be like ksh/bash for the purpose of this discussion. It
would be like zsh and elisp.
> The most straightforward way is not necessarily the best way.
>
> Very often the best way takes effort.
This is obviously true.
I'll summarize my position. I believe it is in agreement with Peter
and Bart but I wouldn't presume speaking for them.
- The way typeset works in zsh makes sense. There is no inconsistency,
there is precedence in other languages, and it was a natural evolution
from global-only parameters.
- If we could change history, it would be better if typeset in zsh
worked the same way as in ksh/bash because that behavior also makes
sense and compatibility is valuable.
- It's infeasible to change the behavior of typeset in zsh in native
mode because it'll break too much user code.
- It's feasible and desirable to make typeset compatible with ksh/bash
when KSH_TYPESET is set.
Roman.
next prev parent reply other threads:[~2020-11-14 5:41 UTC|newest]
Thread overview: 53+ messages / expand[flat|nested] mbox.gz Atom feed top
2020-11-11 15:57 Felipe Contreras
2020-11-11 16:13 ` Roman Perepelitsa
2020-11-11 16:56 ` Felipe Contreras
2020-11-11 17:02 ` Roman Perepelitsa
2020-11-11 18:03 ` Felipe Contreras
2020-11-11 18:16 ` Roman Perepelitsa
2020-11-11 20:42 ` Felipe Contreras
2020-11-12 0:20 ` Mikael Magnusson
2020-11-12 1:10 ` Felipe Contreras
2020-11-12 8:45 ` Roman Perepelitsa
2020-11-12 10:47 ` Peter Stephenson
2020-11-12 18:48 ` Bart Schaefer
2020-11-12 19:49 ` Felipe Contreras
2020-11-12 18:46 ` Felipe Contreras
2020-11-12 19:10 ` Roman Perepelitsa
2020-11-12 21:08 ` Felipe Contreras
2020-11-13 8:51 ` Roman Perepelitsa
2020-11-14 0:52 ` Felipe Contreras
2020-11-14 5:41 ` Roman Perepelitsa [this message]
2020-11-16 19:41 ` Felipe Contreras
2020-11-16 20:22 ` Roman Perepelitsa
2020-11-17 20:28 ` Felipe Contreras
2020-11-18 22:45 ` Daniel Shahaf
2020-11-22 1:20 ` Felipe Contreras
2020-11-23 4:00 ` Daniel Shahaf
2020-11-23 6:18 ` Felipe Contreras
2020-11-19 2:59 ` Bart Schaefer
2020-11-22 1:50 ` Felipe Contreras
2020-11-17 20:54 ` Bart Schaefer
2020-11-22 1:49 ` Felipe Contreras
2020-11-23 6:48 ` Bart Schaefer
2020-11-23 7:26 ` Felipe Contreras
2020-11-23 20:26 ` Bart Schaefer
2020-11-23 23:39 ` Felipe Contreras
2020-11-24 0:52 ` Bart Schaefer
2020-11-25 8:46 ` Felipe Contreras
2020-11-27 15:44 ` Daniel Shahaf
2020-11-27 20:49 ` Felipe Contreras
2020-11-27 20:59 ` Daniel Shahaf
2020-11-27 21:33 ` Bart Schaefer
2020-11-27 23:37 ` Daniel Shahaf
2020-11-27 23:45 ` Bart Schaefer
2020-11-28 0:24 ` Bart Schaefer
2020-11-28 7:32 ` Bart Schaefer
2020-11-28 12:05 ` Felipe Contreras
2020-11-12 19:26 ` Bart Schaefer
2020-11-12 21:48 ` Felipe Contreras
2020-11-13 22:17 ` Bart Schaefer
2020-11-14 0:58 ` Felipe Contreras
2020-11-11 18:36 ` Bart Schaefer
2020-11-11 21:08 ` Felipe Contreras
2020-11-11 17:02 ` Peter Stephenson
2020-11-11 18:05 ` Felipe Contreras
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