From: "Daniel Shahaf" <d.s@daniel.shahaf.name>
To: "Zsh hackers list" <zsh-workers@zsh.org>
Cc: "Clinton Bunch" <cdb_zsh@zentaur.org>
Subject: Re: [PATCH] zsh/random module [UPDATED]
Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2022 23:54:06 +0000 [thread overview]
Message-ID: <aec52e64-dcd2-4893-8fca-4128e590e12b@app.fastmail.com> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <869f6d65-15d2-477f-b78b-02427a0c1395@app.fastmail.com>
dana wrote on Wed, 23 Nov 2022 21:42 +00:00:
> On Wed 23 Nov 2022, at 13:46, Daniel Shahaf wrote:
>> + Why should -c default to 8 in the "random bytes" case? Why
>> shouldn't it default to some other value, or even be required to be
>> specified explicitly by the user? ...
>> - Why should -c's default depend on anything at all? You mentioned
>> downthread you consider making -c1 the default in all cases; that'd be
>> better.
>
> The defaults with this API are kind of weird, because if you make them
> dependent on the format (e.g. 8 for hex and 1 for everything else) it's kind
> of arbitrary, but if you keep them all the same (e.g. 1 or 8 for everything)
> they aren't generally useful — i think it's safe to assume that 'i would like
> exactly 1 random hex digit' is not going to be the most common use case
>
Well, agreed on that last sentence, but note that «-c 1» in the patch
means one byte, not one nibble.
> Requiring the user to explicitly specify it would address that, though you
> could say then that it goes the other way, e.g. again it's probably safe to
> assume that 90% of the time you're only going to want one integer value, and
> making people write that out every time, whilst expected in a lower-level API
> like a C function, is maybe annoying in a convenience shell built-in
>
But 1 /is/ the default for integer mode, and I don't think anyone
proposed to change that? Rather, it was proposed to change the default
for bytes mode from 4 bytes (8 nibbles) to 1 byte. Do you reckon requesting 4 bytes
should be the default for that mode, as opposed to, say, 1, 2, 8, or 64 bytes?
> But annoying is probably better than confusing, if those are the options
>
Heh :)
> On Wed 23 Nov 2022, at 13:46, Daniel Shahaf wrote:
>> Oh, and bump that 16 to something 3 or 4 times as big, because a 1/65536
>> chance isn't really enough in a world where automated builds (CI,
>> distros' QA, etc.) is a thing.
>
> I feel like it should be very nearly impossible for a test to fail just for
> randomness reasons. Maybe it's over-kill but in my draft reply to the patch i
> was going to suggest something like this:
>
> () {
> repeat $(( 10 ** 5 )); do
> getrandom -L4 -U5 -c64 -a tmpa
> [[ $tmpa[(r)5] == 5 ]] && return 0
> done
> return 1
> }
>
No maybe about it :)
With these parameters, the probability of a false positive is 2 to the
power of minus the overall number of iterations, i.e., 2**(-6.4 million),
which is 1/[a number that has 1.9M decimal digits].
To be clear, it's not 1/1.9M, which is about the probability of a random
Londoner being at 10 Downing Street right now. It's 1/[10 ** 1.9M],
which is about the probability of correctly guessing the genders of all
Londoners.
If you converted the entire Earth's mass to CPUs and ran «getrandom -L4
-U5 -c64» on it repeatedly until Sol died, and the CPUs all operated at
4GHz, and there were no bugs in anything, the chance of getting a single
run to not return a 5 would still be something like a billion to one
(give or take several zeroes depending on CPU mass, the argument to -c,
and so on).
That's why in practice, if a single -c64 call ever doesn't return a 5,
it's safe to assume there's a bug.
Conversely, if you actually retain those 6.4 million iterations, what's
the probability that the outer loop will return 0 on the first iteration
and then a gamma ray will flip that to 0?
next prev parent reply other threads:[~2022-11-23 23:56 UTC|newest]
Thread overview: 46+ messages / expand[flat|nested] mbox.gz Atom feed top
2022-11-02 17:13 [PATCH] zsh/random module Clinton Bunch
2022-11-03 17:50 ` Bart Schaefer
2022-11-04 3:17 ` dana
2022-11-04 6:22 ` Clinton Bunch
2022-11-04 7:27 ` dana
2022-11-04 12:57 ` Clinton Bunch
2022-11-08 0:18 ` [PATCH] zsh/random module [UPDATED] Clinton Bunch
2022-11-18 14:30 ` Clinton Bunch
2022-11-19 6:42 ` Lawrence Velázquez
2022-11-18 16:23 ` Stephane Chazelas
2022-11-18 17:08 ` Clinton Bunch
2022-11-18 18:12 ` Stephane Chazelas
2022-11-18 18:38 ` Clinton Bunch
2022-11-23 19:52 ` Daniel Shahaf
2022-11-24 16:19 ` Stephane Chazelas
2022-11-24 16:30 ` Roman Perepelitsa
2022-11-24 22:39 ` Clinton Bunch
2022-11-25 8:53 ` Stephane Chazelas
2022-11-25 9:40 ` Stephane Chazelas
2022-11-28 16:37 ` further discussion of zsh/random (was [PATCH] zsh/random module [UPDATED]) Clinton Bunch
2022-11-21 1:07 ` [PATCH] zsh/random module [UPDATED] Matthew Martin
2022-11-21 1:59 ` Clinton Bunch
2022-11-21 2:21 ` Matthew Martin
2022-11-21 2:57 ` Clinton Bunch
2022-11-21 3:14 ` Lawrence Velázquez
2022-11-21 4:17 ` Bart Schaefer
2022-11-21 5:05 ` Clinton Bunch
2022-11-22 13:42 ` dana
2022-11-23 19:49 ` Daniel Shahaf
2022-11-22 17:44 ` Oliver Kiddle
2022-11-22 19:48 ` Clinton Bunch
2022-11-23 1:23 ` Matthew Martin
2022-11-23 2:58 ` Clinton Bunch
2022-11-23 4:14 ` Matthew Martin
2022-11-23 13:41 ` Clinton Bunch
2022-11-23 20:33 ` Daniel Shahaf
2022-11-23 21:42 ` dana
2022-11-23 23:54 ` Daniel Shahaf [this message]
2022-11-24 0:17 ` Daniel Shahaf
2022-11-24 1:05 ` dana
2022-11-24 13:52 ` Clinton Bunch
2022-11-23 19:46 ` Daniel Shahaf
2022-11-24 2:58 ` Clinton Bunch
2022-11-24 10:07 ` nimaje+zml
2022-11-24 13:19 ` Clinton Bunch
2022-11-24 14:33 ` Clinton Bunch
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