Re: List archive not tracking new home site?

Re: List archive not tracking new home site?

[Geoff Wing]

Bart Schaefer wrote about List archive not tracking new home site?:
:There don't appear to be any articles in the HTML archive from after the
:gatech.edu --> sunsite.auc.dk list changeover.  Need to fix the filters
:to look for X-Seq: instead of X-Mailing-List: ?

And in fact, all the messages have been sitting in a default (fallthrough)
mailbox which I don't check anymore!  Gee, I thought my zsh newsgroups were
a bit slow.

There's a big problem with how it's set up now.  You can't separate
announce/users/workers properly because every message sent to announce
also gets duplicated in users and workers.  Similary messages to users
get workers numbers too. 
As for recipients, since I'm on workers, everything comes in on workers
with workers sequencing - so I can't split them into announce/users/workers
because 
1) I don't know announce/users sequence numbers.
2) I can't tell properly what mailing list it was sent to without some
   groking of the Delivered-To: headers

Now I'll go read all those zsh messages I missed.

Regards,
-- 
Geoff Wing   <gcw@pobox.com>            Mobile : (Australia) 0412 162 441
Work URL: http://www.primenet.com.au/   Ego URL: http://pobox.com/~gcw/

Re: List archive not tracking new home site?

[Bart Schaefer]

On Jan 27,  4:19pm, Geoff Wing wrote:
} Subject: Re: List archive not tracking new home site?
}
} There's a big problem with how it's set up now.  You can't separate
} announce/users/workers properly because every message sent to announce
} also gets duplicated in users and workers.  Similary messages to users
} get workers numbers too. 

Yes.

I already sent a complaint about that to <zsh-users-owner@sunsite.auc.dk>
but have gotten no response as yet.

-- 
Bart Schaefer                                 Brass Lantern Enterprises
http://www.well.com/user/barts              http://www.brasslantern.com

Re: List archive not tracking new home site?

[Geoff Wing]

Bart Schaefer <schaefer@brasslantern.com> typed:
:On Jan 27,  4:19pm, Geoff Wing wrote:
:} There's a big problem with how it's set up now.  You can't separate
:} announce/users/workers properly because every message sent to announce
:} also gets duplicated in users and workers.  Similary messages to users
:} get workers numbers too. 
:Yes.
:I already sent a complaint about that to <zsh-users-owner@sunsite.auc.dk>
:but have gotten no response as yet.

There's no way to do it that I can determine with a stock qmail/ezmlm(idx)
installation.  You can do it with a minor, non-intrusive change to
ezmlm-idx and several possibly non-trivial setup changes (from an admin
POV there would be 5 lists, not 3, but users would only see 3)

Also, someone else said something about headers "Mailing-List:" vs
"X-Mailing-List".  That's the standard ezmlm header to prevent cross
mailing list occurences.  "X-Mailing-List" could be added but you can't
remove "Mailing-List" without making intrusive changes, and as a lot of
other lists are running off the same machine that's probably not an
admin's first choice.

Regards,
-- 
Geoff Wing   <gcw@pobox.com>            Mobile : (Australia) 0412 162 441
Work URL: http://www.primenet.com.au/   Ego URL: http://pobox.com/~gcw/

Re: List archive not tracking new home site?

[Geoff Wing]

Geoff Wing <mason@primenet.com.au> typed:
:Bart Schaefer <schaefer@brasslantern.com> typed:
::On Jan 27,  4:19pm, Geoff Wing wrote:
::} There's a big problem with how it's set up now.  You can't separate
::} announce/users/workers properly because every message sent to announce
::} also gets duplicated in users and workers.  Similary messages to users
::} get workers numbers too. 
::Yes.
::I already sent a complaint about that to <zsh-users-owner@sunsite.auc.dk>
::but have gotten no response as yet.
:There's no way to do it that I can determine with a stock qmail/ezmlm(idx)
:installation.  You can do it with a minor, non-intrusive change to
:ezmlm-idx and several possibly non-trivial setup changes (from an admin
:POV there would be 5 lists, not 3, but users would only see 3)

Another alternative would be to have 
    zsh-{announce,users,workers}@zsh.org (or @lists.zsh.org ?)
or maybe just {announce,users,workers}@....
which can add an appropriate header containing sequence numbers for
{users,workers} but not for announce (which won't get a sequence
number until after moderation).  However, those sequence numbers for
{users,workers} would be different to whatever number is in the
mail's ``Return-Path:'' so people wouldn't be able to fetch from
the sunsite.auc.dk archive by that number.  Only from the www.zsh.org
archive.

Comments?
-- 
Geoff Wing   <gcw@pobox.com>            Mobile : (Australia) 0412 162 441
Work URL: http://www.primenet.com.au/   Ego URL: http://pobox.com/~gcw/

Re: List archive not tracking new home site?

[Bart Schaefer]

On Jan 27,  6:55am, Geoff Wing wrote:
} Subject: Re: List archive not tracking new home site?
}
} Comments?

Since I presume you're looking at ezmlm documentation or some such ...

The problem appears to be that when list A forwards to list B, the X-Seq:
header from A is replaced by the one from B.  Yes?  So people only on
zsh-users see a different X-Seq: from those on zsh-workers?

Would it be possible to simply configure qmail/ezmlm to move the old X-Seq:
header to some other name (possibly derived from the existing Mailing-List:
header) before adding the new X-Seq: and Mailing-List: ?

I don't particularly care whether zsh-users messages are duplicated in the
zsh-workers archive (whether the HTTP one or the listserver one); in fact
that'd make it easier to find things.  I *do* object to losing the -users
sequence number entirely when the message is forwarded.

-- 
Bart Schaefer                                 Brass Lantern Enterprises
http://www.well.com/user/barts              http://www.brasslantern.com

Re: List archive not tracking new home site?

[Geoff Wing]

Bart Schaefer <schaefer@brasslantern.com> typed:
:On Jan 27,  6:55am, Geoff Wing wrote:
:} Subject: Re: List archive not tracking new home site?
:} Comments?
:Since I presume you're looking at ezmlm documentation or some such ...
:
:The problem appears to be that when list A forwards to list B, the X-Seq:
:header from A is replaced by the one from B.  Yes?  So people only on
:zsh-users see a different X-Seq: from those on zsh-workers?
:
:Would it be possible to simply configure qmail/ezmlm to move the old X-Seq:
:header to some other name (possibly derived from the existing Mailing-List:
:header) before adding the new X-Seq: and Mailing-List: ?

No, because with the easiest way to set it up, for messages sent to
announce/users the delivery for people on workers never goes through the
announce/users ezmlm process (and thus get gets announce/users X-Seq:
headers). A message to users would get delivered straight to the users
and workers lists as though they were separate messages, not to the users
list which would then send to the workers list.

:I don't particularly care whether zsh-users messages are duplicated in the
:zsh-workers archive (whether the HTTP one or the listserver one); in fact
:that'd make it easier to find things.  I *do* object to losing the -users
:sequence number entirely when the message is forwarded.

Which you can't get, because you're on workers.  To get all message numbers
you would have to subscribe invidually to all three lists.
-- 
Geoff Wing   <gcw@pobox.com>            Mobile : (Australia) 0412 162 441
Work URL: http://www.primenet.com.au/   Ego URL: http://pobox.com/~gcw/

Re: List archive not tracking new home site?

[Karsten Thygesen]

>>>>> "Bart" == Bart Schaefer <schaefer@brasslantern.com> writes:

Bart> On Jan 27, 6:55am, Geoff Wing wrote: } Subject: Re: List archive
Bart> not tracking new home site?  } } Comments?

Bart> Since I presume you're looking at ezmlm documentation or some
Bart> such ...

Bart> The problem appears to be that when list A forwards to list B,
Bart> the X-Seq: header from A is replaced by the one from B.  Yes?
Bart> So people only on zsh-users see a different X-Seq: from those on
Bart> zsh-workers?

Bart> Would it be possible to simply configure qmail/ezmlm to move the
Bart> old X-Seq: header to some other name (possibly derived from the
Bart> existing Mailing-List: header) before adding the new X-Seq: and
Bart> Mailing-List: ?

Bart> I don't particularly care whether zsh-users messages are
Bart> duplicated in the zsh-workers archive (whether the HTTP one or
Bart> the listserver one); in fact that'd make it easier to find
Bart> things.  I *do* object to losing the -users sequence number
Bart> entirely when the message is forwarded.

How about having a X-Seq-users AND a X-Seq-workers and X-Seq-announce?
That way, forwarded messages will contain all (possible) sequence
numbers, and intelligent archive software could even use this to
crosslink between the lists. 

Comments?

Karsten

Re: List archive not tracking new home site?

[Geoff Wing]

Karsten Thygesen <karthy@kom.auc.dk> typed:
:How about having a X-Seq-users AND a X-Seq-workers and X-Seq-announce?

Well, you can only do this if you subscribe workers to users and
users to announce.  If a message to users gets ezmlm-send'd to workers
(as it obviously is now) then people in workers are not going to get a
X-Seq-users added.  Well, they can have it added but the sequence number
won't point to the correct users sequence number.

:That way, forwarded messages will contain all (possible) sequence
:numbers, and intelligent archive software could even use this to
:crosslink between the lists. 

Ah, now where do I get this intelligent archive software :-)

Regards,
-- 
Geoff Wing   <gcw@pobox.com>            Mobile : (Australia) 0412 162 441
Work URL: http://www.primenet.com.au/   Ego URL: http://pobox.com/~gcw/

Re: List archive not tracking new home site?

[Karsten Thygesen]

>>>>> "Geoff" == Geoff Wing <mason@primenet.com.au> writes:

Geoff> Well, you can only do this if you subscribe workers to users
Geoff> and users to announce.  If a message to users gets ezmlm-send'd
Geoff> to workers (as it obviously is now) then people in workers are
Geoff> not going to get a X-Seq-users added.  Well, they can have it
Geoff> added but the sequence number won't point to the correct users
Geoff> sequence number.

No - now that I give it a second thought, you are right. 

Geoff> :That way, forwarded messages will contain all (possible)
Geoff> sequence :numbers, and intelligent archive software could even
Geoff> use this to :crosslink between the lists.

Geoff> Ah, now where do I get this intelligent archive software :-)

It was just a thought :-)

Anyway - what other solutions can we come up with? Is there anybody or
anything besides the mail archive that uses the sequence numbers to
anything?  If there is not, I would assume, that the archive could
invent it's own numbering scheme which is unrelated to the X-Seq
numbers, subscribe to all 3 lists and then make some filtering taking
Message-ID into account (to find postings which have been posted to
several of the lists). I do not consider it a great loose, that the
two archives is not synchronized - I do not think, that anyone uses
both of them. (or am I wrong?)

Karsten

Re: List archive not tracking new home site?

[Bart Schaefer]

On Jan 27,  3:39pm, Karsten Thygesen wrote:
} Subject: Re: List archive not tracking new home site?
}
} No - now that I give it a second thought, you are right. 

This is not giving me great vibes about ezmlm.

} Anyway - what other solutions can we come up with? Is there anybody or
} anything besides the mail archive that uses the sequence numbers to
} anything?

Yes.  When a patch gets applied, the ChangeLog file (or my own CVS commit
logs, or PWS's patchlist.txt file) get the article number (formerly from
the X-Mailing-List header) inserted into the log.  That way anybody who
wants to can go back to the original article to find out exactly what
changed and what discussion led to the change.

It's very important IMO that the article number on the HTTP archive site
be the same as the one that appears on the message headers.

-- 
Bart Schaefer                                 Brass Lantern Enterprises
http://www.well.com/user/barts              http://www.brasslantern.com

Re: List archive not tracking new home site?

[Karsten Thygesen]

>>>>> "Geoff" == Geoff Wing <mason@primenet.com.au> writes:

Geoff> Another alternative would be to have
Geoff>     zsh-{announce,users,workers}@zsh.org (or @lists.zsh.org ?)
Geoff> or maybe just {announce,users,workers}@....  which can add an
Geoff> appropriate header containing sequence numbers for
Geoff> {users,workers} but not for announce (which won't get a
Geoff> sequence number until after moderation).  However, those
Geoff> sequence numbers for {users,workers} would be different to
Geoff> whatever number is in the mail's ``Return-Path:'' so people
Geoff> wouldn't be able to fetch from the sunsite.auc.dk archive by
Geoff> that number.  Only from the www.zsh.org archive.

That could be done, but when people subscribe or unsubscribe, the
message must go to sunsite.auc.dk, and that is not very intuitive and
I fear a lot of people will try to do administrative changes by
posting to the main lists. Also, ezmlm keeps track of who is missing
what messages, and if a message bounce due to temporary errors, it
will notify the receiver about which messages he is messing - these
messages will be numbered in the ezmlm-scheme.

So the best thing would be, if sunsite and the archive did agree on
the numbering.

Another alternative: 

if the archive is subscribed to all three lists, then it will get all
messages with the right sequence number, and the listname can be
determined from the Delivered-To header so that if the only
Delivered-To header is the announce, then we know both the sequence
number and that the message was posted to announce. If there is only
an users Delivered-To header, and no workers, then we know it was
posted to users and we know the sequence number. If the message
contains the workers Delivered-To header an none of the others, then
it was posted to workers.

So from the above logic it should be possible to build the archive the
way it used to be - it only requires subscription to the other lists
and a little intelligence in the frontend.

Comments on that?

Karsten

Re: List archive not tracking new home site?

[Geoff Wing]

Karsten Thygesen <karthy@kom.auc.dk> typed:
[...my comments deleted...]
:That could be done, but when people subscribe or unsubscribe, the
:message must go to sunsite.auc.dk, and that is not very intuitive and
:I fear a lot of people will try to do administrative changes by
:posting to the main lists.

I can set up
  users-anythingblah@zsh.org to go to zsh-users-anythingblah@zsh.org
and others in about 60-70 seconds.

:Also, ezmlm keeps track of who is missing
:what messages, and if a message bounce due to temporary errors, it
:will notify the receiver about which messages he is messing - these
:messages will be numbered in the ezmlm-scheme.

There are also questions on what are the current "official" numbers:
	Date: 28 Jan 1999 09:29:09 +1100
	Message-ID: <slrn7av4lh.d2q.dave@jagor.srce.hr>
	X-Seq: 5069
	X-Mailing-List: <zsh-workers@math.gatech.edu> archive/latest/4970
The message went through both gatech and sunsite.auc so picked up two sets
of numbers.  Neither is more useful than the other.  gatech is now missing
messages that get sent straight to sunsite.auc.  sunsite.auc has announce
and users messages mixed in.

:So the best thing would be, if sunsite and the archive did agree on
:the numbering.

OK, well, if you're willing to make a small change to ezmlm-idx - which
won't affect your other lists; the change would allow sublists to have
more than one possible parent list - and you're also willing to make some
structural changes to the list setup - using five list hierarchies, not
three then, yes, a message to announce will have an announce number even
when sent to users or workers.  And a message to users will have a users
number when sent to workers.

I'll mail details later.
-- 
Geoff Wing   <gcw@pobox.com>            Mobile : (Australia) 0412 162 441
Work URL: http://www.primenet.com.au/   Ego URL: http://pobox.com/~gcw/

Re: List archive not tracking new home site?

[Bart Schaefer]

On Jan 28,  3:38am, Geoff Wing wrote:
} Subject: Re: List archive not tracking new home site?
}
} I can set up
}   users-anythingblah@zsh.org to go to zsh-users-anythingblah@zsh.org
} and others in about 60-70 seconds.

It would be very nice if the mailing lists appeared to be hosted at zsh.org
even if the real list exploder is elsewhere.  That way we wouldn't have to
change the mailing list addresses when the exploder moves, and would avoid
problems like this one:

} The message went through both gatech and sunsite.auc so picked up two sets
} of numbers.  Neither is more useful than the other.  gatech is now missing
} messages that get sent straight to sunsite.auc.  sunsite.auc has announce
} and users messages mixed in.

The sunsite.auc numbers ARE more useful and should be considered the "real"
ones.  It's no big deal if there are a few users and announce messages in
the sequence, but it's really bad if some messages are missing from the
sequence.  Only sunsite.auc has them all.

-- 
Bart Schaefer                                 Brass Lantern Enterprises
http://www.well.com/user/barts              http://www.brasslantern.com

Re: List archive not tracking new home site?

[Geoff Wing]

Heyla,
just to note that I've posted a patch to the ezmlm list (mess #2382)
which changes ezmlm to allow nested sublists in a way suitable for the
zsh list.  I'll post a summary here of any pertinent feedback so we can
stop boring everyone else on this list with this part of the topic.
-- 
Geoff Wing   <gcw@pobox.com>            Mobile : (Australia) 0412 162 441
Work URL: http://www.primenet.com.au/   Ego URL: http://pobox.com/~gcw/