* Re: The request of words matter updated
@ 2022-10-05 3:02 Wesley
2022-10-05 3:18 ` zeurkous
0 siblings, 1 reply; 19+ messages in thread
From: Wesley @ 2022-10-05 3:02 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Daniel Shahaf; +Cc: zsh-workers
On 10/4/22 03:05, Daniel Shahaf wrote:
> Wesley wrote on Mon, Oct 03, 2022 at 15:27:49 +0000:
>>
>> On 9/28/22 12:34, Peter Stephenson wrote:
>>
>>> Once that's established, perhaps someone could arrange for an online vote
>>> at one of the websites that do that? Given no technical change results
>>> from any of this, opinion is all we've got, and there's evidently no
>>> sign of a consensus.
>>
>> Do you need consensus on this change? I mean, if someone provided a
>> patch that changes master/slave to something else that makes sense
>> because they want to stay clear of those words, would it not be
>> accepted?
>
> pws posted such a patch upthread.
I read the message, but didn't see the patch below it. My bad.
>> The change is essentially a refactor and should pass all the tests..
>
> Any change has costs. In this case, the change might shadow or unshadow
> another symbol (pws checked that for the terms his patch uses), would be
> one more manual step for any future «blame» or «log» run, would
> necessitate a rebase for anyone who has local patches to zpty.c, and
> would introduce a https://xkcd.com/927/ problem to anyone reading zsh's
> pseudo-terminal module's C source file.
That is a thing, the linux man page are still using master and slave (as
stated in 50669).
A rebase for those who have custom patches.. it is a cost that they
already have since they have forked the project.
@Sunny (OP)
How is IBM treating the Linux manual page(s), either via RHEL/SUSE or
LinuxOne?
Cheers,
Wesley
--
Wesley Schwengle
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 19+ messages in thread
* RE: Re: The request of words matter updated
2022-10-05 3:02 The request of words matter updated Wesley
@ 2022-10-05 3:18 ` zeurkous
0 siblings, 0 replies; 19+ messages in thread
From: zeurkous @ 2022-10-05 3:18 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Wesley; +Cc: zsh-workers, Daniel Shahaf
On Wed, 05 Oct 2022 03:02:37 +0000, Wesley <opndev@protonmail.com> wrote:
> On 10/4/22 03:05, Daniel Shahaf wrote:
> That is a thing, the linux man page are still using master and slave (as
> stated in 50669).
As a data point: so does OpenBSD.
> @Sunny (OP)
> How is IBM treating the Linux manual page(s), either via RHEL/SUSE or
> LinuxOne?
An interesting question.
--zeurkous.
--
Friggin' Machines!
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 19+ messages in thread
* RE: Re: The request of words matter updated
2022-10-08 18:14 ` Martijn Dekker
@ 2022-10-08 18:34 ` zeurkous
0 siblings, 0 replies; 19+ messages in thread
From: zeurkous @ 2022-10-08 18:34 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Martijn Dekker, zsh-workers
On Sat, 8 Oct 2022 20:14:27 +0200, Martijn Dekker <martijn@inlv.org> wrote:
> Op 04-10-22 om 07:29 schreef Daniel Shahaf:
>> As producingoss explains, voting is going to leave half the participants
>> unhappy. Let's instead try and find a solution we can consense on.
>
> Since there is no consensus or precedent, I propose changing "slave" to
> "minion" and keeping "master", which is the less problematic of the two
> (e.g., as far as I know, no one is objecting to the default master
> branch on millions of git repos, or to the master recordings of music
> productions).
How about "mook"?
Yet, not necessarily opposed. Is this a compromise we can all live w/:
replace "slave" but not "master"...?
> This would minimise potential confusion while replacing the emotive,
> historically charged word
Until "minion" becomes an emotive, historically charged word, too.
(Not to shoot it down, but there is that risk...)
> by a reference to Despicable Me, which would
> inject some much needed light-heartedness into this debate.
Light-headedness more like :S (But that's off-topic...)
--zeurkous.
--
Friggin' Machines!
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 19+ messages in thread
* RE: Re: The request of words matter updated
2022-10-08 10:46 ` Mikael Magnusson
@ 2022-10-08 10:59 ` zeurkous
0 siblings, 0 replies; 19+ messages in thread
From: zeurkous @ 2022-10-08 10:59 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Mikael Magnusson; +Cc: Daniel Shahaf, Wesley, zsh-workers
On Sat, 8 Oct 2022 12:46:19 +0200, Mikael Magnusson <mikachu@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 10/8/22, Felipe Contreras <felipe.contreras@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Tue, Oct 4, 2022 at 2:05 AM Daniel Shahaf <d.s@daniel.shahaf.name>
>> wrote:
>>> Wesley wrote on Mon, Oct 03, 2022 at 15:27:49 +0000:
>>> > On 9/28/22 12:34, Peter Stephenson wrote:
>>
>>> On the other hand, the change would allegedly make it easier for some
>>> people to participate in the community.
>>
>> I have debated this point ad nauseam.
>
> You're certainly good at this part, maybe you should try debating by
> making good points instead of trying to make your opponents sick.
In this case, you're describing your own behaviour more than you
describe Felipe's.
But you're probably oblivious to that.
>> It's not good enough to say this change *might* benefit some hypothetical people[.]
>
> The cost is 0, the gain is 0 or greater. Just do it, and someone might
> be happier, nobody will be less happy.
It seems like you're unable to appreciate other people's arguments.
Shame.
--zeurkous.
--
Friggin' Machines!
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 19+ messages in thread
* RE: Re: The request of words matter updated
2022-10-08 7:54 ` Felipe Contreras
@ 2022-10-08 10:06 ` zeurkous
2022-10-08 10:46 ` Mikael Magnusson
1 sibling, 0 replies; 19+ messages in thread
From: zeurkous @ 2022-10-08 10:06 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Felipe Contreras; +Cc: Wesley, zsh-workers
On Sat, 8 Oct 2022 02:54:04 -0500, Felipe Contreras <felipe.contreras@gmail.com> wrote:
> Do we have a single black person raising their hand and saying "I find
> the term 'master' personally offensive"?
Or any other person. Enslavement in general has not been limited to the
dark-skinned.
--zeurkous.
--
Friggin' Machines!
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 19+ messages in thread
* RE: Re: The request of words matter updated
2022-10-04 7:28 ` Daniel Shahaf
@ 2022-10-05 0:00 ` zeurkous
0 siblings, 0 replies; 19+ messages in thread
From: zeurkous @ 2022-10-05 0:00 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Daniel Shahaf; +Cc: zsh-workers, Wesley
On Tue, 4 Oct 2022 07:28:06 +0000, Daniel Shahaf <d.s@daniel.shahaf.name> wrote:
> In terms of jcb's thesis, the two positions on master/slave terminology
> seem to be "tactlessness is a strict liability faux pas; if Bob opines
> Alice spoke tactlessly, she should speak differently" and "Alice wasn't
> being intentionally racist/speciesist/*, and Bob should follow Postel's
> Law".
>
> If I wrote the last paragraph well, I mispresented /both/ positions
> equally badly :P
[disclaimer: didn't read "jcb's thesis"]
The real problem with an "it causes offense, so it must be wrong"
attitude is conflicting norms, an inherent property of the very
"cultural diversity" that companies like IBM claim to persue.
In simpler terms: it's very easy to say something that constitutes an
insult in $CULTURE[0], while constituting lavish praise in $CULTURE[1].
(The words "not bad" spring to mind.)
We can never get it right; or, rather: we can never please everybody, no
matter what terminology we use, *someone* will be offended.
That's why it's important that keep technical terminology technical.
Unless we're willing to outright make up words that no-one will be able
to intuitively learn or understand. That would be quite a regression,
wouldn't it?
--zeurkous.
--
Friggin' Machines!
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 19+ messages in thread
* RE: Re: The request of words matter updated
2022-10-04 7:05 ` Daniel Shahaf
2022-10-04 7:28 ` Daniel Shahaf
@ 2022-10-04 23:46 ` zeurkous
2022-10-08 7:54 ` Felipe Contreras
2 siblings, 0 replies; 19+ messages in thread
From: zeurkous @ 2022-10-04 23:46 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Daniel Shahaf; +Cc: zsh-workers, Wesley
On Tue, 4 Oct 2022 07:05:20 +0000, Daniel Shahaf <d.s@daniel.shahaf.name> wrote:
> On the other hand, the change would allegedly make it easier for some
> people to participate in the community.
>
> On the third hand, the change would likely have social costs as well.
It's already having social costs. Look at the upheaval, on this very
list, that we're ourselves participants of.
In all, me suspects that the change, should we make it, will have the
following effects--
0) Continuing churn, both in the code and on the mailing lists;
1) The folks at IBM relievedly ticking boxes on forms submitted to
management;
2) No increase -attributable to the change- in contributions;
3) An increase in certain people's level of disgust;
and, finally:
3) The folks at IBM (and quite possibly others), having taken note
that we gave in to political pressure once, sooner or later try to
make us do so again, quite possibly on an even less sensical
subject.
--zeurkous.
--
Friggin' Machines!
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 19+ messages in thread
* RE: Re: The request of words matter updated
2022-10-04 5:48 ` Daniel Shahaf
@ 2022-10-04 23:31 ` zeurkous
0 siblings, 0 replies; 19+ messages in thread
From: zeurkous @ 2022-10-04 23:31 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Daniel Shahaf
Cc: zsh-workers, Xiao Ling XL Chen, Kui K Zhang, Peter Stephenson
On Tue, 4 Oct 2022 05:48:01 +0000, Daniel Shahaf <d.s@daniel.shahaf.name> wrote:
> - Let the variable names be chosen by a configure option. (That means
> generating zpty.c from zpty.c.ac.) The option's name, its possible
> values, and the behaviour when the option isn't passed will have to be
> decided upon.
Me honestly feels that would be one of the worst possible outcomes, as
autocrap usage is rampant enough already and there simply no technical
reason to optionally change the names (apart from funky compat issues
that might arise when doing so).
Me's against the change, but if we make it, we should make it
unconditionally, not as a configure option, IMO.
> Dnaiel
Fnord.
--zeurkous.
--
Friggin' Machines!
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 19+ messages in thread
* RE: Re: The request of words matter updated
2022-10-03 15:27 ` Wesley
@ 2022-10-03 15:45 ` zeurkous
2022-10-04 7:05 ` Daniel Shahaf
1 sibling, 0 replies; 19+ messages in thread
From: zeurkous @ 2022-10-03 15:45 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Wesley, zsh-workers
On Mon, 03 Oct 2022 15:27:49 +0000, Wesley <opndev@protonmail.com> wrote:
> All that said, I think IBM should be the driver of the change as it
> doesn't comply with their "Words matter" policy. They just threw a stick
> in a bee hive and now are watching the bees go crazy. If they want it
> fixed, they should provide the patches to fix *their* political issue.
> Unless someone within the zsh project really agrees with their view ofc.
>
> Those are my 2 cents on this topic.
To me, those "2 cents" appear to be the crucial point.
Me can't escape the distinct impression that the folks over at IBM are
trying to make their foolish policy into our (and others') problem.
Me doesn't think we should suffer that gladly.
--zeurkous.
--
Friggin' Machines!
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 19+ messages in thread
* RE: Re: The request of words matter updated
2022-10-03 14:25 ` Peter Stephenson
@ 2022-10-03 14:43 ` zeurkous
2022-10-04 5:29 ` Daniel Shahaf
1 sibling, 0 replies; 19+ messages in thread
From: zeurkous @ 2022-10-03 14:43 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Peter Stephenson, zsh-workers; +Cc: Xiao Ling XL Chen, Kui K Zhang
Haai,
On Mon, 3 Oct 2022 15:25:13 +0100 (BST), Peter Stephenson <p.w.stephenson@ntlworld.com> wrote:
>> Once that's established, perhaps someone could arrange for an online vote
>> at one of the websites that do that? Given no technical change results
>> from any of this, opinion is all we've got, and there's evidently no
>> sign of a consensus.
>
> This appears to be where we're going. I'll do some research on this, but
> if anyone has pointers to a good place for an anonymous vote, let me know.
Anonymous voting? Over the Interwebz? That'd be a great idea! :)
> Thanks for the various cogent analyses of the points on both sides.
> Beyond that, I don't think anyone has been called a Nazi yet, but there's
> still time.
(SCNR) You're no better than Hitler!
There, rectified that.
> I think the ultimate reason this is contentious is it's something of a
> curveball (googly in my terminology; nothing to do with Mountain View,
> if anything still falls in that category) --- it brings in a whole
> heap of things not usually expected on a technical list, so all of us
> in turn bring in a whole heap of our own non-technical ideas. At
> least, that's about the only way to rationalise an involved discussion
> on two words in a file that (as has been pointed out) most people will
> never actually read.
Precedent. It has the potential to set a precedent that may lead to far
greater upheaval in the future.
Me's still pondering Bart's words (they tend to deserve that kind of
time).
--zeurkous.
--
Friggin' Machines!
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 19+ messages in thread
* Re: Re: The request of words matter updated
2022-09-28 13:05 ` zeurkous, zeurkous
@ 2022-09-29 8:49 ` Axel Beckert
0 siblings, 0 replies; 19+ messages in thread
From: Axel Beckert @ 2022-09-29 8:49 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: zsh-workers
Hi,
On Wed, Sep 28, 2022 at 01:05:43PM +0000, zeurkous@blaatscaahp.org wrote:
> Slavery is not a silly matter IMO.
Ack. But slavery has no real relation to these terms anymore. They're
about processes and sockets and whatever, not about people.
Child processes are also not the result of two processes engaging with
each other, yet they're named "child" because child and parent are
also technical terms for quite a long time now, too.
> That's not the dicussion here anyways.
Exactly. And it's not what these terms are about.
They're technical terms. Not related to people.
> And while me's truly sorry if certain technical terms cause you (or
> anyone else) pain, depression, or worse: they are technical, and when
> taken in context, they have no emotional load beyond what we personally,
> and individually, assign to them.
Thanks.
Kind regards, Axel
--
PGP: 2FF9CD59612616B5 /~\ Plain Text Ribbon Campaign, http://arc.pasp.de/
Mail: abe@deuxchevaux.org \ / Say No to HTML in E-Mail and Usenet
Mail+Jabber: abe@noone.org X
https://axel.beckert.ch/ / \ I love long mails: https://email.is-not-s.ms/
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 19+ messages in thread
* RE: Re: The request of words matter updated
2022-09-28 16:34 ` Peter Stephenson
@ 2022-09-28 16:42 ` zeurkous, zeurkous
2022-10-03 14:25 ` Peter Stephenson
2022-10-03 15:27 ` Wesley
2 siblings, 0 replies; 19+ messages in thread
From: zeurkous, zeurkous @ 2022-09-28 16:42 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Peter Stephenson, zsh-workers; +Cc: Xiao Ling XL Chen, Kui K Zhang
On Wed, 28 Sep 2022 17:34:04 +0100 (BST), Peter Stephenson <p.w.stephenson@ntlworld.com> wrote:
> I'm guessing that of those who favour a change there are no major
> feelings in favour of any of the various alternative ways of saying "upper"
> and "lower"?
Or "left" and "right". Or "head" and "tail". Or "straight-angled" and
"diagonal"... each terminology has its own downsides, it seems.
> Once that's established, perhaps someone could arrange for an online vote
> at one of the websites that do that? Given no technical change results
> from any of this, opinion is all we've got, and there's evidently no
> sign of a consensus.
To me: no consensus -> no change. But perhaps that's too easy.
Either way: me's inclined to call a popular vote on the matter a
pointless waste of time.
And as for the proposed technology: mecan be assured that it would not
require javashi^H^Hcript, cookies, or other such nonsense? And who will
take the time to do it? Who won't have anything better to do...?
--zeurkous.
>
> Cheers
> pws
>
--
Friggin' Machines!
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 19+ messages in thread
* RE: Re: The request of words matter updated
2022-09-28 12:16 ` Clinton Bunch
@ 2022-09-28 13:05 ` zeurkous, zeurkous
2022-09-29 8:49 ` Axel Beckert
0 siblings, 1 reply; 19+ messages in thread
From: zeurkous, zeurkous @ 2022-09-28 13:05 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Clinton Bunch
Cc: Peter Stephenson, zsh-workers, Xiao Ling XL Chen, Kui K Zhang,
Felipe Contreras, Daniel Shahaf
On Wed, 28 Sep 2022 07:16:16 -0500, Clinton Bunch <cdbunch@zentaur.org> wrote:
> On 9/28/2022 1:14 AM, Felipe Contreras wrote:
> Because they're silent, there is no way to tell if they are a majority.=C2=
> =A0=20
> Personally, I think the silence comes from the fact 90-95% of people=20
> just don't care.
They will care once it's forced down on them. When it's too late. While
IMO it's often stupid to stay silent, they don't deserve such treatment.
> These words cause some people pain.=C2=A0
All words have the potential to cause pain.
> You may think the source of tha=
> t=20
> pain is silly,
Slavery is not a silly matter IMO. That's not the dicussion here
anyways.
> but it doesn't make the pain any less real. (Ask anyone=20
> who's been clinically depressed about feeling pain other people tell you=20
> you shouldn't feel)
>
> It's a small change that alleviates pain.=C2=A0 That should be reason eno=
> ugh=20
> to do it.
As has been explained multiple times, by different people: the change
you are proposing is not small.
And while me's truly sorry if certain technical terms cause you (or
anyone else) pain, depression, or worse: they are technical, and when
taken in context, they have no emotional load beyond what we personally,
and individually, assign to them.
Are you going to try and persuade physicists to drop Schroedinger's Cat,
because randomly gunning down cats is just cruel?
Good luck.
--zeurkous.
--
Friggin' Machines!
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 19+ messages in thread
* RE: Re: The request of words matter updated
2022-09-28 6:30 ` Ellenor Bjornsdottir
@ 2022-09-28 12:57 ` zeurkous, zeurkous
0 siblings, 0 replies; 19+ messages in thread
From: zeurkous, zeurkous @ 2022-09-28 12:57 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Ellenor Bjornsdottir, zsh-workers
On Wed, 28 Sep 2022 06:30:56 +0000, Ellenor Bjornsdottir <ellenor@umbrellix.net> wrote:
> ------XRFY9ASNODGQ2RMB1ZY98CLW1L91PZ
> Content-Type: text/plain;
> charset=utf-8
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>
> Will this change actually harm anything - foreign libraries, etc?
Yes. It will create inconsistency and confusion.
> If not, then because it clearly benefits some people, the cost-benefit cal=
> culus favors change=2E
>
> I don't like it, but my opinion doesn't matter because the change harms no=
> thing=2E
Even if you see no harm: that attitude tends to lead to MIME garbage,
the careless dropping of 'Cc:'s, and top-posting.
Luckily, your response doesn't suffer from any of that, does it?
Pfew.
--zeurkous.
>
> On 28 September 2022 06:17:59 UTC, Felipe Contreras <felipe=2Econtreras@gm=
> ail=2Ecom> wrote:
>>On Tue, Sep 27, 2022 at 4:39 PM Mikael Magnusson <mikachu@gmail=2Ecom> wr=
> ote:
>>>
>>> On 9/27/22, Daniel Shahaf <d=2Es@daniel=2Eshahaf=2Ename> wrote:
>>> > -1 on the patch because I don't believe people who disagree with the
>>> > change feel comfortable saying so publicly=2E
>>>
>>> If a word is so bad that people don't want to say that they want to
>>> keep it, then we should not keep it=2E
>>
>>There's nothing "bad" about the word a priori=2E If *you* believe it has
>>to be changed, then *you* have the burden of proof=2E
>>
>>Just like any other change=2E
>>
>>--=20
>>Felipe Contreras
>>
>
> --=20
> Ellenor Bjornsdottir (she)
> sysadmin umbrellix=2Enet
> ------XRFY9ASNODGQ2RMB1ZY98CLW1L91PZ
> Content-Type: text/html;
> charset=utf-8
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>
> <html><head></head><body>Will this change actually harm anything - foreign =
> libraries, etc?<br><br>If not, then because it clearly benefits some people=
> , the cost-benefit calculus favors change=2E<br><br>I don't like it, but my=
> opinion doesn't matter because the change harms nothing=2E<br><br><div cla=
> ss=3D"gmail_quote">On 28 September 2022 06:17:59 UTC, Felipe Contreras <=
> felipe=2Econtreras@gmail=2Ecom> wrote:<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" =
> style=3D"margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0=2E8ex; border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, =
> 204); padding-left: 1ex;">
> <pre dir=3D"auto" class=3D"k9mail">On Tue, Sep 27, 2022 at 4:39 PM Mikael =
> Magnusson <mikachu@gmail=2Ecom> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_=
> quote" style=3D"margin: 0pt 0pt 1ex 0=2E8ex; border-left: 1px solid #729fcf=
> ; padding-left: 1ex;"><br> On 9/27/22, Daniel Shahaf <d=2Es@daniel=2Esha=
> haf=2Ename> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:=
> 0pt 0pt 1ex 0=2E8ex; border-left: 1px solid #ad7fa8; padding-left: 1ex;">-=
> 1 on the patch because I don't believe people who disagree with the<br>chan=
> ge feel comfortable saying so publicly=2E<br></blockquote><br> If a word is=
> so bad that people don't want to say that they want to<br> keep it, then w=
> e should not keep it=2E<br></blockquote><br>There's nothing "bad" about the=
> word a priori=2E If *you* believe it has<br>to be changed, then *you* have=
> the burden of proof=2E<br><br>Just like any other change=2E<br><br><div cl=
> ass=3D"k9mail-signature">-- <br>Felipe Contreras<br><br></div></pre></block=
> quote></div><div style=3D'white-space: pre-wrap'><div class=3D'k9mail-signa=
> ture'>-- <br>Ellenor Bjornsdottir (she)<br>sysadmin umbrellix=2Enet</div></=
> div></body></html>
> ------XRFY9ASNODGQ2RMB1ZY98CLW1L91PZ--
>
--
Friggin' Machines!
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 19+ messages in thread
* RE: Re: The request of words matter updated
2022-09-28 6:14 ` Felipe Contreras
2022-09-28 12:16 ` Clinton Bunch
@ 2022-09-28 12:52 ` zeurkous, zeurkous
1 sibling, 0 replies; 19+ messages in thread
From: zeurkous, zeurkous @ 2022-09-28 12:52 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Felipe Contreras
Cc: Peter Stephenson, zsh-workers, Xiao Ling XL Chen, Kui K Zhang,
Daniel Shahaf
On Wed, 28 Sep 2022 01:14:55 -0500, Felipe Contreras <felipe.contreras@gmail.com> wrote:
> Just because the silent majority is silent doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
Amen.
Though it does make them all too easy to ignore.
(And then there's the matter of whether the majority, silent or not,
really ought to be our moral guide... far beyond the scope of this list
though.)
--zeurkous.
--
Friggin' Machines!
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 19+ messages in thread
* RE: Re: The request of words matter updated
2022-09-27 21:32 ` Mikael Magnusson
2022-09-28 6:17 ` Felipe Contreras
@ 2022-09-28 12:47 ` zeurkous, zeurkous
1 sibling, 0 replies; 19+ messages in thread
From: zeurkous, zeurkous @ 2022-09-28 12:47 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Mikael Magnusson
Cc: Peter Stephenson, zsh-workers, Xiao Ling XL Chen, Kui K Zhang,
Daniel Shahaf
On Tue, 27 Sep 2022 23:32:03 +0200, Mikael Magnusson <mikachu@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 9/27/22, Daniel Shahaf <d.s@daniel.shahaf.name> wrote:
>> -1 on the patch because I don't believe people who disagree with the
>> change feel comfortable saying so publicly.
>
> If a word is so bad that people don't want to say that they want to
> keep it, then we should not keep it.
And that attitude, {ladies,gentlemen,...}, leads to a propagandistic
minority having the ability to dictate the majority.
Sad, isn't it?
--zeurkous.
--
Friggin' Machines!
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 19+ messages in thread
* RE: Re: The request of words matter updated
2022-09-27 21:22 ` Clinton Bunch
@ 2022-09-28 12:42 ` zeurkous, zeurkous
0 siblings, 0 replies; 19+ messages in thread
From: zeurkous, zeurkous @ 2022-09-28 12:42 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Clinton Bunch; +Cc: zsh-workers, Xiao Ling XL Chen, Kui K Zhang
On Tue, 27 Sep 2022 16:22:20 -0500, Clinton Bunch <cdbunch@zentaur.org> wrote:
> I will also point out that making it "Somebody Else's Problem" Is a big=20
> part of why we haven't successfully rid ourselves of these terms in over=20
> two decades of realizing they were problematic. Let's not perpetuate the=20
> problem.
The terms are not problematic, except of course in the paranoid
delusions of those who believe.
SEP is a bad attitude to life in general, but a life-preserving strategy
when in a project with limited goals. Without a healthy degree of SEP,
UNIX would have to be maintained as a single piece. While the latter
would be a noble goal, the current situation does not allow for it to be
realized.
Unfortunately.
--zeurkous.
--
Friggin' Machines!
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 19+ messages in thread
* RE: Re: The request of words matter updated
2022-09-27 21:15 ` Clinton Bunch
2022-09-27 21:22 ` Clinton Bunch
@ 2022-09-28 12:33 ` zeurkous, zeurkous
1 sibling, 0 replies; 19+ messages in thread
From: zeurkous, zeurkous @ 2022-09-28 12:33 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Clinton Bunch, zsh-workers
On Tue, 27 Sep 2022 16:15:04 -0500, Clinton Bunch <cdbunch@zentaur.org> wrote:
> For PTYs=C2=A0 I like the terms controller and subsidiary.=C2=A0 It seems=
> to=20
> describe the relationship better than other suggestions.=C2=A0
BS. See me previous message.
> The use of=
> =20
> superior and inferior as otherwhere suggested strike me as eventually=20
> running into the same problem of being emotionally charged.
These are technical terms. Within context, they are only emotionally
charged for people who underrate the technical meanings of those words.
Next me'll complain that cat(1) is a speciecist name for a program. Or
that biff(1) *really* is out-of-date not just in function, but also in
name, and we should change it promptly. Or that wump(6) is demeaning to
real wumpuses. Or...
Let's not go down that road, people. Please.
--zeurkous.
--
Friggin' Machines!
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 19+ messages in thread
* RE: Re: The request of words matter updated
2022-09-27 20:54 ` Daniel Shahaf
` (2 preceding siblings ...)
2022-09-28 6:14 ` Felipe Contreras
@ 2022-09-28 12:08 ` zeurkous, zeurkous
2022-09-28 16:34 ` Peter Stephenson
4 siblings, 0 replies; 19+ messages in thread
From: zeurkous, zeurkous @ 2022-09-28 12:08 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Daniel Shahaf, zsh-workers
Cc: Xiao Ling XL Chen, Kui K Zhang, Peter Stephenson
Haai,
On Tue, 27 Sep 2022 20:54:46 +0000, "Daniel Shahaf" <d.s@daniel.shahaf.name> wrote:
> -1 on the patch because I don't believe people who disagree with the
> change feel comfortable saying so publicly.
*nods*
So me'll speak up: me's for keeping the current terminology, for the
following reasons--
0) Me certainly hopes that no-one imagines an actual {master,slave}
relationship when the words are applied to ptys, hdds, or w/ever. To
the degree that they do: they're insufficiently distinguishing
technical shorthand from unfortunate tedencies in human history
(and, to a degree, sadly not limited to history).
1) The terms are entrenched and replacing them generates confusion,
churn in declarations, etc.
2) There are no plausible alternatives as far as me can see. The
proposed {owner,subsidiary} -- and similar -- terms again imply a
relationship of personal and economic exploitation (just this time
covered with a mildly fuzzy blanket).
The politically correct interface terms, {primary,secondary}, imply
that the limit of the sequence is not 1, which is IMO not helpful
here either.
If anything, me'd opt for {dom,sub}, but apart from it probably
being just as little politically acceptable, that creates confusion
with existing technical terms (although such confusion is always, to
a degree, unavoidable).
3) We have better ways to spend our time. Me probably wouldn't have
responded if me hadn't just come out of the shower ;)
HTH,
--zeurkous.
P.S., OT: Me's been trying to migrate me list membership to me new
addy, <zeurkous@blaatscaahp.org>. The confirmation message
never arrived and me attempt to contact the maintainer
resulted in silence. Can the maintainer please privately
contact me to sort this out? TIA :)
--
Friggin' Machines!
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 19+ messages in thread
end of thread, other threads:[~2022-10-08 19:07 UTC | newest]
Thread overview: 19+ messages (download: mbox.gz / follow: Atom feed)
-- links below jump to the message on this page --
2022-10-05 3:02 The request of words matter updated Wesley
2022-10-05 3:18 ` zeurkous
-- strict thread matches above, loose matches on Subject: below --
2022-09-19 6:52 Xiao Ling XL Chen
2022-09-19 18:20 ` Bart Schaefer
2022-09-27 3:15 ` Lawrence Velázquez
2022-09-27 4:22 ` Bart Schaefer
2022-09-27 8:44 ` Peter Stephenson
2022-09-27 20:54 ` Daniel Shahaf
2022-09-27 21:15 ` Clinton Bunch
2022-09-27 21:22 ` Clinton Bunch
2022-09-28 12:42 ` zeurkous, zeurkous
2022-09-28 12:33 ` zeurkous, zeurkous
2022-09-27 21:32 ` Mikael Magnusson
2022-09-28 6:17 ` Felipe Contreras
2022-09-28 6:30 ` Ellenor Bjornsdottir
2022-09-28 12:57 ` zeurkous, zeurkous
2022-09-28 12:47 ` zeurkous, zeurkous
2022-09-28 6:14 ` Felipe Contreras
2022-09-28 12:16 ` Clinton Bunch
2022-09-28 13:05 ` zeurkous, zeurkous
2022-09-29 8:49 ` Axel Beckert
2022-09-28 12:52 ` zeurkous, zeurkous
2022-09-28 12:08 ` zeurkous, zeurkous
2022-09-28 16:34 ` Peter Stephenson
2022-09-28 16:42 ` zeurkous, zeurkous
2022-10-03 14:25 ` Peter Stephenson
2022-10-03 14:43 ` zeurkous
2022-10-04 5:29 ` Daniel Shahaf
2022-10-04 5:48 ` Daniel Shahaf
2022-10-04 23:31 ` zeurkous
2022-10-08 18:14 ` Martijn Dekker
2022-10-08 18:34 ` zeurkous
2022-10-03 15:27 ` Wesley
2022-10-03 15:45 ` zeurkous
2022-10-04 7:05 ` Daniel Shahaf
2022-10-04 7:28 ` Daniel Shahaf
2022-10-05 0:00 ` zeurkous
2022-10-04 23:46 ` zeurkous
2022-10-08 7:54 ` Felipe Contreras
2022-10-08 10:06 ` zeurkous
2022-10-08 10:46 ` Mikael Magnusson
2022-10-08 10:59 ` zeurkous
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