* Re: List archive not tracking new home site? [not found] <990126210538.ZM26432@candle.brasslantern.com> @ 1999-01-27 5:19 ` Geoff Wing 1999-01-27 5:32 ` Bart Schaefer 0 siblings, 1 reply; 14+ messages in thread From: Geoff Wing @ 1999-01-27 5:19 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Bart Schaefer; +Cc: Zsh Hackers Bart Schaefer wrote about List archive not tracking new home site?: :There don't appear to be any articles in the HTML archive from after the :gatech.edu --> sunsite.auc.dk list changeover. Need to fix the filters :to look for X-Seq: instead of X-Mailing-List: ? And in fact, all the messages have been sitting in a default (fallthrough) mailbox which I don't check anymore! Gee, I thought my zsh newsgroups were a bit slow. There's a big problem with how it's set up now. You can't separate announce/users/workers properly because every message sent to announce also gets duplicated in users and workers. Similary messages to users get workers numbers too. As for recipients, since I'm on workers, everything comes in on workers with workers sequencing - so I can't split them into announce/users/workers because 1) I don't know announce/users sequence numbers. 2) I can't tell properly what mailing list it was sent to without some groking of the Delivered-To: headers Now I'll go read all those zsh messages I missed. Regards, -- Geoff Wing <gcw@pobox.com> Mobile : (Australia) 0412 162 441 Work URL: http://www.primenet.com.au/ Ego URL: http://pobox.com/~gcw/ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 14+ messages in thread
* Re: List archive not tracking new home site? 1999-01-27 5:19 ` List archive not tracking new home site? Geoff Wing @ 1999-01-27 5:32 ` Bart Schaefer 1999-01-27 5:58 ` Geoff Wing 0 siblings, 1 reply; 14+ messages in thread From: Bart Schaefer @ 1999-01-27 5:32 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Zsh Hackers On Jan 27, 4:19pm, Geoff Wing wrote: } Subject: Re: List archive not tracking new home site? } } There's a big problem with how it's set up now. You can't separate } announce/users/workers properly because every message sent to announce } also gets duplicated in users and workers. Similary messages to users } get workers numbers too. Yes. I already sent a complaint about that to <zsh-users-owner@sunsite.auc.dk> but have gotten no response as yet. -- Bart Schaefer Brass Lantern Enterprises http://www.well.com/user/barts http://www.brasslantern.com ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 14+ messages in thread
* Re: List archive not tracking new home site? 1999-01-27 5:32 ` Bart Schaefer @ 1999-01-27 5:58 ` Geoff Wing 1999-01-27 6:55 ` Geoff Wing 0 siblings, 1 reply; 14+ messages in thread From: Geoff Wing @ 1999-01-27 5:58 UTC (permalink / raw) To: zsh-workers Bart Schaefer <schaefer@brasslantern.com> typed: :On Jan 27, 4:19pm, Geoff Wing wrote: :} There's a big problem with how it's set up now. You can't separate :} announce/users/workers properly because every message sent to announce :} also gets duplicated in users and workers. Similary messages to users :} get workers numbers too. :Yes. :I already sent a complaint about that to <zsh-users-owner@sunsite.auc.dk> :but have gotten no response as yet. There's no way to do it that I can determine with a stock qmail/ezmlm(idx) installation. You can do it with a minor, non-intrusive change to ezmlm-idx and several possibly non-trivial setup changes (from an admin POV there would be 5 lists, not 3, but users would only see 3) Also, someone else said something about headers "Mailing-List:" vs "X-Mailing-List". That's the standard ezmlm header to prevent cross mailing list occurences. "X-Mailing-List" could be added but you can't remove "Mailing-List" without making intrusive changes, and as a lot of other lists are running off the same machine that's probably not an admin's first choice. Regards, -- Geoff Wing <gcw@pobox.com> Mobile : (Australia) 0412 162 441 Work URL: http://www.primenet.com.au/ Ego URL: http://pobox.com/~gcw/ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 14+ messages in thread
* Re: List archive not tracking new home site? 1999-01-27 5:58 ` Geoff Wing @ 1999-01-27 6:55 ` Geoff Wing 1999-01-27 7:22 ` Bart Schaefer 1999-01-27 17:55 ` Karsten Thygesen 0 siblings, 2 replies; 14+ messages in thread From: Geoff Wing @ 1999-01-27 6:55 UTC (permalink / raw) To: zsh-workers Geoff Wing <mason@primenet.com.au> typed: :Bart Schaefer <schaefer@brasslantern.com> typed: ::On Jan 27, 4:19pm, Geoff Wing wrote: ::} There's a big problem with how it's set up now. You can't separate ::} announce/users/workers properly because every message sent to announce ::} also gets duplicated in users and workers. Similary messages to users ::} get workers numbers too. ::Yes. ::I already sent a complaint about that to <zsh-users-owner@sunsite.auc.dk> ::but have gotten no response as yet. :There's no way to do it that I can determine with a stock qmail/ezmlm(idx) :installation. You can do it with a minor, non-intrusive change to :ezmlm-idx and several possibly non-trivial setup changes (from an admin :POV there would be 5 lists, not 3, but users would only see 3) Another alternative would be to have zsh-{announce,users,workers}@zsh.org (or @lists.zsh.org ?) or maybe just {announce,users,workers}@.... which can add an appropriate header containing sequence numbers for {users,workers} but not for announce (which won't get a sequence number until after moderation). However, those sequence numbers for {users,workers} would be different to whatever number is in the mail's ``Return-Path:'' so people wouldn't be able to fetch from the sunsite.auc.dk archive by that number. Only from the www.zsh.org archive. Comments? -- Geoff Wing <gcw@pobox.com> Mobile : (Australia) 0412 162 441 Work URL: http://www.primenet.com.au/ Ego URL: http://pobox.com/~gcw/ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 14+ messages in thread
* Re: List archive not tracking new home site? 1999-01-27 6:55 ` Geoff Wing @ 1999-01-27 7:22 ` Bart Schaefer 1999-01-27 9:23 ` Geoff Wing 1999-01-27 9:44 ` Karsten Thygesen 1999-01-27 17:55 ` Karsten Thygesen 1 sibling, 2 replies; 14+ messages in thread From: Bart Schaefer @ 1999-01-27 7:22 UTC (permalink / raw) To: zsh-workers On Jan 27, 6:55am, Geoff Wing wrote: } Subject: Re: List archive not tracking new home site? } } Comments? Since I presume you're looking at ezmlm documentation or some such ... The problem appears to be that when list A forwards to list B, the X-Seq: header from A is replaced by the one from B. Yes? So people only on zsh-users see a different X-Seq: from those on zsh-workers? Would it be possible to simply configure qmail/ezmlm to move the old X-Seq: header to some other name (possibly derived from the existing Mailing-List: header) before adding the new X-Seq: and Mailing-List: ? I don't particularly care whether zsh-users messages are duplicated in the zsh-workers archive (whether the HTTP one or the listserver one); in fact that'd make it easier to find things. I *do* object to losing the -users sequence number entirely when the message is forwarded. -- Bart Schaefer Brass Lantern Enterprises http://www.well.com/user/barts http://www.brasslantern.com ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 14+ messages in thread
* Re: List archive not tracking new home site? 1999-01-27 7:22 ` Bart Schaefer @ 1999-01-27 9:23 ` Geoff Wing 1999-01-27 9:44 ` Karsten Thygesen 1 sibling, 0 replies; 14+ messages in thread From: Geoff Wing @ 1999-01-27 9:23 UTC (permalink / raw) To: zsh-workers Bart Schaefer <schaefer@brasslantern.com> typed: :On Jan 27, 6:55am, Geoff Wing wrote: :} Subject: Re: List archive not tracking new home site? :} Comments? :Since I presume you're looking at ezmlm documentation or some such ... : :The problem appears to be that when list A forwards to list B, the X-Seq: :header from A is replaced by the one from B. Yes? So people only on :zsh-users see a different X-Seq: from those on zsh-workers? : :Would it be possible to simply configure qmail/ezmlm to move the old X-Seq: :header to some other name (possibly derived from the existing Mailing-List: :header) before adding the new X-Seq: and Mailing-List: ? No, because with the easiest way to set it up, for messages sent to announce/users the delivery for people on workers never goes through the announce/users ezmlm process (and thus get gets announce/users X-Seq: headers). A message to users would get delivered straight to the users and workers lists as though they were separate messages, not to the users list which would then send to the workers list. :I don't particularly care whether zsh-users messages are duplicated in the :zsh-workers archive (whether the HTTP one or the listserver one); in fact :that'd make it easier to find things. I *do* object to losing the -users :sequence number entirely when the message is forwarded. Which you can't get, because you're on workers. To get all message numbers you would have to subscribe invidually to all three lists. -- Geoff Wing <gcw@pobox.com> Mobile : (Australia) 0412 162 441 Work URL: http://www.primenet.com.au/ Ego URL: http://pobox.com/~gcw/ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 14+ messages in thread
* Re: List archive not tracking new home site? 1999-01-27 7:22 ` Bart Schaefer 1999-01-27 9:23 ` Geoff Wing @ 1999-01-27 9:44 ` Karsten Thygesen 1999-01-27 10:06 ` Geoff Wing 1 sibling, 1 reply; 14+ messages in thread From: Karsten Thygesen @ 1999-01-27 9:44 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Bart Schaefer; +Cc: zsh-workers >>>>> "Bart" == Bart Schaefer <schaefer@brasslantern.com> writes: Bart> On Jan 27, 6:55am, Geoff Wing wrote: } Subject: Re: List archive Bart> not tracking new home site? } } Comments? Bart> Since I presume you're looking at ezmlm documentation or some Bart> such ... Bart> The problem appears to be that when list A forwards to list B, Bart> the X-Seq: header from A is replaced by the one from B. Yes? Bart> So people only on zsh-users see a different X-Seq: from those on Bart> zsh-workers? Bart> Would it be possible to simply configure qmail/ezmlm to move the Bart> old X-Seq: header to some other name (possibly derived from the Bart> existing Mailing-List: header) before adding the new X-Seq: and Bart> Mailing-List: ? Bart> I don't particularly care whether zsh-users messages are Bart> duplicated in the zsh-workers archive (whether the HTTP one or Bart> the listserver one); in fact that'd make it easier to find Bart> things. I *do* object to losing the -users sequence number Bart> entirely when the message is forwarded. How about having a X-Seq-users AND a X-Seq-workers and X-Seq-announce? That way, forwarded messages will contain all (possible) sequence numbers, and intelligent archive software could even use this to crosslink between the lists. Comments? Karsten ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 14+ messages in thread
* Re: List archive not tracking new home site? 1999-01-27 9:44 ` Karsten Thygesen @ 1999-01-27 10:06 ` Geoff Wing 1999-01-27 14:39 ` Karsten Thygesen 0 siblings, 1 reply; 14+ messages in thread From: Geoff Wing @ 1999-01-27 10:06 UTC (permalink / raw) To: zsh-workers Karsten Thygesen <karthy@kom.auc.dk> typed: :How about having a X-Seq-users AND a X-Seq-workers and X-Seq-announce? Well, you can only do this if you subscribe workers to users and users to announce. If a message to users gets ezmlm-send'd to workers (as it obviously is now) then people in workers are not going to get a X-Seq-users added. Well, they can have it added but the sequence number won't point to the correct users sequence number. :That way, forwarded messages will contain all (possible) sequence :numbers, and intelligent archive software could even use this to :crosslink between the lists. Ah, now where do I get this intelligent archive software :-) Regards, -- Geoff Wing <gcw@pobox.com> Mobile : (Australia) 0412 162 441 Work URL: http://www.primenet.com.au/ Ego URL: http://pobox.com/~gcw/ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 14+ messages in thread
* Re: List archive not tracking new home site? 1999-01-27 10:06 ` Geoff Wing @ 1999-01-27 14:39 ` Karsten Thygesen 1999-01-27 16:15 ` Bart Schaefer 0 siblings, 1 reply; 14+ messages in thread From: Karsten Thygesen @ 1999-01-27 14:39 UTC (permalink / raw) To: mason; +Cc: zsh-workers >>>>> "Geoff" == Geoff Wing <mason@primenet.com.au> writes: Geoff> Well, you can only do this if you subscribe workers to users Geoff> and users to announce. If a message to users gets ezmlm-send'd Geoff> to workers (as it obviously is now) then people in workers are Geoff> not going to get a X-Seq-users added. Well, they can have it Geoff> added but the sequence number won't point to the correct users Geoff> sequence number. No - now that I give it a second thought, you are right. Geoff> :That way, forwarded messages will contain all (possible) Geoff> sequence :numbers, and intelligent archive software could even Geoff> use this to :crosslink between the lists. Geoff> Ah, now where do I get this intelligent archive software :-) It was just a thought :-) Anyway - what other solutions can we come up with? Is there anybody or anything besides the mail archive that uses the sequence numbers to anything? If there is not, I would assume, that the archive could invent it's own numbering scheme which is unrelated to the X-Seq numbers, subscribe to all 3 lists and then make some filtering taking Message-ID into account (to find postings which have been posted to several of the lists). I do not consider it a great loose, that the two archives is not synchronized - I do not think, that anyone uses both of them. (or am I wrong?) Karsten ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 14+ messages in thread
* Re: List archive not tracking new home site? 1999-01-27 14:39 ` Karsten Thygesen @ 1999-01-27 16:15 ` Bart Schaefer 0 siblings, 0 replies; 14+ messages in thread From: Bart Schaefer @ 1999-01-27 16:15 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Karsten Thygesen, mason; +Cc: zsh-workers On Jan 27, 3:39pm, Karsten Thygesen wrote: } Subject: Re: List archive not tracking new home site? } } No - now that I give it a second thought, you are right. This is not giving me great vibes about ezmlm. } Anyway - what other solutions can we come up with? Is there anybody or } anything besides the mail archive that uses the sequence numbers to } anything? Yes. When a patch gets applied, the ChangeLog file (or my own CVS commit logs, or PWS's patchlist.txt file) get the article number (formerly from the X-Mailing-List header) inserted into the log. That way anybody who wants to can go back to the original article to find out exactly what changed and what discussion led to the change. It's very important IMO that the article number on the HTTP archive site be the same as the one that appears on the message headers. -- Bart Schaefer Brass Lantern Enterprises http://www.well.com/user/barts http://www.brasslantern.com ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 14+ messages in thread
* Re: List archive not tracking new home site? 1999-01-27 6:55 ` Geoff Wing 1999-01-27 7:22 ` Bart Schaefer @ 1999-01-27 17:55 ` Karsten Thygesen 1999-01-28 3:38 ` Geoff Wing 1 sibling, 1 reply; 14+ messages in thread From: Karsten Thygesen @ 1999-01-27 17:55 UTC (permalink / raw) To: mason; +Cc: zsh-workers >>>>> "Geoff" == Geoff Wing <mason@primenet.com.au> writes: Geoff> Another alternative would be to have Geoff> zsh-{announce,users,workers}@zsh.org (or @lists.zsh.org ?) Geoff> or maybe just {announce,users,workers}@.... which can add an Geoff> appropriate header containing sequence numbers for Geoff> {users,workers} but not for announce (which won't get a Geoff> sequence number until after moderation). However, those Geoff> sequence numbers for {users,workers} would be different to Geoff> whatever number is in the mail's ``Return-Path:'' so people Geoff> wouldn't be able to fetch from the sunsite.auc.dk archive by Geoff> that number. Only from the www.zsh.org archive. That could be done, but when people subscribe or unsubscribe, the message must go to sunsite.auc.dk, and that is not very intuitive and I fear a lot of people will try to do administrative changes by posting to the main lists. Also, ezmlm keeps track of who is missing what messages, and if a message bounce due to temporary errors, it will notify the receiver about which messages he is messing - these messages will be numbered in the ezmlm-scheme. So the best thing would be, if sunsite and the archive did agree on the numbering. Another alternative: if the archive is subscribed to all three lists, then it will get all messages with the right sequence number, and the listname can be determined from the Delivered-To header so that if the only Delivered-To header is the announce, then we know both the sequence number and that the message was posted to announce. If there is only an users Delivered-To header, and no workers, then we know it was posted to users and we know the sequence number. If the message contains the workers Delivered-To header an none of the others, then it was posted to workers. So from the above logic it should be possible to build the archive the way it used to be - it only requires subscription to the other lists and a little intelligence in the frontend. Comments on that? Karsten ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 14+ messages in thread
* Re: List archive not tracking new home site? 1999-01-27 17:55 ` Karsten Thygesen @ 1999-01-28 3:38 ` Geoff Wing 1999-01-28 16:14 ` Bart Schaefer 0 siblings, 1 reply; 14+ messages in thread From: Geoff Wing @ 1999-01-28 3:38 UTC (permalink / raw) To: zsh-workers Karsten Thygesen <karthy@kom.auc.dk> typed: [...my comments deleted...] :That could be done, but when people subscribe or unsubscribe, the :message must go to sunsite.auc.dk, and that is not very intuitive and :I fear a lot of people will try to do administrative changes by :posting to the main lists. I can set up users-anythingblah@zsh.org to go to zsh-users-anythingblah@zsh.org and others in about 60-70 seconds. :Also, ezmlm keeps track of who is missing :what messages, and if a message bounce due to temporary errors, it :will notify the receiver about which messages he is messing - these :messages will be numbered in the ezmlm-scheme. There are also questions on what are the current "official" numbers: Date: 28 Jan 1999 09:29:09 +1100 Message-ID: <slrn7av4lh.d2q.dave@jagor.srce.hr> X-Seq: 5069 X-Mailing-List: <zsh-workers@math.gatech.edu> archive/latest/4970 The message went through both gatech and sunsite.auc so picked up two sets of numbers. Neither is more useful than the other. gatech is now missing messages that get sent straight to sunsite.auc. sunsite.auc has announce and users messages mixed in. :So the best thing would be, if sunsite and the archive did agree on :the numbering. OK, well, if you're willing to make a small change to ezmlm-idx - which won't affect your other lists; the change would allow sublists to have more than one possible parent list - and you're also willing to make some structural changes to the list setup - using five list hierarchies, not three then, yes, a message to announce will have an announce number even when sent to users or workers. And a message to users will have a users number when sent to workers. I'll mail details later. -- Geoff Wing <gcw@pobox.com> Mobile : (Australia) 0412 162 441 Work URL: http://www.primenet.com.au/ Ego URL: http://pobox.com/~gcw/ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 14+ messages in thread
* Re: List archive not tracking new home site? 1999-01-28 3:38 ` Geoff Wing @ 1999-01-28 16:14 ` Bart Schaefer 1999-01-28 18:13 ` Geoff Wing 0 siblings, 1 reply; 14+ messages in thread From: Bart Schaefer @ 1999-01-28 16:14 UTC (permalink / raw) To: mason, zsh-workers On Jan 28, 3:38am, Geoff Wing wrote: } Subject: Re: List archive not tracking new home site? } } I can set up } users-anythingblah@zsh.org to go to zsh-users-anythingblah@zsh.org } and others in about 60-70 seconds. It would be very nice if the mailing lists appeared to be hosted at zsh.org even if the real list exploder is elsewhere. That way we wouldn't have to change the mailing list addresses when the exploder moves, and would avoid problems like this one: } The message went through both gatech and sunsite.auc so picked up two sets } of numbers. Neither is more useful than the other. gatech is now missing } messages that get sent straight to sunsite.auc. sunsite.auc has announce } and users messages mixed in. The sunsite.auc numbers ARE more useful and should be considered the "real" ones. It's no big deal if there are a few users and announce messages in the sequence, but it's really bad if some messages are missing from the sequence. Only sunsite.auc has them all. -- Bart Schaefer Brass Lantern Enterprises http://www.well.com/user/barts http://www.brasslantern.com ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 14+ messages in thread
* Re: List archive not tracking new home site? 1999-01-28 16:14 ` Bart Schaefer @ 1999-01-28 18:13 ` Geoff Wing 0 siblings, 0 replies; 14+ messages in thread From: Geoff Wing @ 1999-01-28 18:13 UTC (permalink / raw) To: zsh-workers Heyla, just to note that I've posted a patch to the ezmlm list (mess #2382) which changes ezmlm to allow nested sublists in a way suitable for the zsh list. I'll post a summary here of any pertinent feedback so we can stop boring everyone else on this list with this part of the topic. -- Geoff Wing <gcw@pobox.com> Mobile : (Australia) 0412 162 441 Work URL: http://www.primenet.com.au/ Ego URL: http://pobox.com/~gcw/ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 14+ messages in thread
end of thread, other threads:[~1999-01-28 18:13 UTC | newest] Thread overview: 14+ messages (download: mbox.gz / follow: Atom feed) -- links below jump to the message on this page -- [not found] <990126210538.ZM26432@candle.brasslantern.com> 1999-01-27 5:19 ` List archive not tracking new home site? Geoff Wing 1999-01-27 5:32 ` Bart Schaefer 1999-01-27 5:58 ` Geoff Wing 1999-01-27 6:55 ` Geoff Wing 1999-01-27 7:22 ` Bart Schaefer 1999-01-27 9:23 ` Geoff Wing 1999-01-27 9:44 ` Karsten Thygesen 1999-01-27 10:06 ` Geoff Wing 1999-01-27 14:39 ` Karsten Thygesen 1999-01-27 16:15 ` Bart Schaefer 1999-01-27 17:55 ` Karsten Thygesen 1999-01-28 3:38 ` Geoff Wing 1999-01-28 16:14 ` Bart Schaefer 1999-01-28 18:13 ` Geoff Wing
Code repositories for project(s) associated with this public inbox https://git.vuxu.org/mirror/zsh/ This is a public inbox, see mirroring instructions for how to clone and mirror all data and code used for this inbox; as well as URLs for NNTP newsgroup(s).