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* [9fans] User Interface
@ 2001-08-14  9:46 Eric de Redelijkheid
  2001-08-14 13:15 ` John Murdie
                   ` (3 more replies)
  0 siblings, 4 replies; 12+ messages in thread
From: Eric de Redelijkheid @ 2001-08-14  9:46 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 9fans

I recently heard about plan9 when I was just browsing the Internet 
looking for some UNIX-related documents.

I saw it was possible to download a copy and since I have an IBM 
Thinkpad 390E which I don't really use anymore, I installed it. The 
installation was very simple; that gave me good hopes about general use.

I trust that the concepts were well concidered when designing this 
operating system, however I have never seen a more awkward user 
interface since twm. The editors, sam and acme are virtually unusable. 
Why is it that such a simple task as editing the contents of a textfile 
must cause so much pain? At least some of you must have seen notepad.exe 
at work during your lifetime? It can´t do much, but it gets the job done 
in a simple way!
Why is there not just one single command to create a new user, but do I 
need first to make the file /adm/users writable, edit this file (with 
more luck then wisdom), and type in at least three different commands. 
When I log on with the new username, I have to give another command to 
get the computer to present me a graphical user environment; which is a 
grey screen.

I don't know for whom the designers created this operating system, but I 
hope that they had human beings in mind.
In my opinion every task performed on a computer:
- installation
- administration
- general use (word processing, spreadsheet, mail etc..)
- programming
should be done with the aid of a simple, intuitive,  point- and- click, 
graphical user interface.

btw: is there a shutdown command or do I just switch my laptop of?


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 12+ messages in thread

* Re: [9fans] User Interface
  2001-08-14  9:46 [9fans] User Interface Eric de Redelijkheid
@ 2001-08-14 13:15 ` John Murdie
  2001-08-14 14:11   ` Re[2]: " Matt
  2001-08-14 16:37 ` [9fans] " Douglas A. Gwyn
                   ` (2 subsequent siblings)
  3 siblings, 1 reply; 12+ messages in thread
From: John Murdie @ 2001-08-14 13:15 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 9fans; +Cc: John Murdie

On 14 Aug, Eric de Redelijkheid wrote:
> In my opinion every task performed on a computer:
> - installation
> - administration
> - general use (word processing, spreadsheet, mail etc..)
> - programming
> should be done with the aid of a simple, intuitive,  point- and- click,
> graphical user interface.

I recall Brian Kernighan's statement along the lines of: ``The trouble
with WYSIWYG is that What You See Is All That You Get.''

I think that the term WYSIWYG is misused; as far as WYSIWYG goes, it's
fine - _of course_ I want my document preview to be printed as exactly
as I see it on the display - what people usually mean when they say
WYSIWYG is actually `direct manipulation' (Ben Schneiderman, 1983, I
think). This in turn usually means that all grammar more complicated
than `noun-verb' (perhaps modified with adjectives or arguments) has
been removed from the interface.

If you've ever seen, as I have, e.g. a Windows administrator creating
student accounts by printing out the E-mailed list which came from my
University's Administration, and then typing in each student's details
again, then pressing `Create account' and `Ok' buttons (or more!) for
each one, you'll know how bankrupt the idea of (only) direct
manipulation is. Even cutting and pasting by hand wouldn't have saved
them much time. (A Unix or Plan 9 user would pipe the E-mail through
(say) an awk script and finish the student account creation in a matter
of seconds, or minutes if the script didn't pre-exist.) Of course, this
is old hat to most people on this list.

As for intuitive, why, video recorders have exactly the kind of
interface that you describe. Why then are they so difficult to use?

(Ok, some might argue that this is off-topic, but I'd say that it is
connected with the why Plan 9 is as it is.)
-- 

John A. Murdie
Department of Computer Science
University of York
England



^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 12+ messages in thread

* Re[2]: [9fans] User Interface
  2001-08-14 13:15 ` John Murdie
@ 2001-08-14 14:11   ` Matt
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 12+ messages in thread
From: Matt @ 2001-08-14 14:11 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: John Murdie


JM> If you've ever seen, as I have, e.g. a Windows administrator creating
JM> student accounts by printing out the E-mailed list which came from my
JM> University's Administration, and then typing in each student's details
JM> again, then pressing `Create account' and `Ok' buttons (or more!) for
JM> each one, you'll know how bankrupt the idea of (only) direct
JM> manipulation is.

a company i shared an office building with hosted 200 or so web sites
on one NT server. He assigned them all a distinct IP.

One day his box "forgot" it's IIS settings (a frequent occurence
in those days - bit rot on binary files probably)

He had to manually enter the details of all 200 sites.

Each IP had to be entered an octet at a time because of MS's great IP
dialog control.

It took him 20 hours.

how we laughed (but not to his very pissed off face)



^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 12+ messages in thread

* [9fans] Re: User Interface
  2001-08-14  9:46 [9fans] User Interface Eric de Redelijkheid
  2001-08-14 13:15 ` John Murdie
@ 2001-08-14 16:37 ` Douglas A. Gwyn
  2001-08-15 17:04   ` Boyd Roberts
  2001-08-15 13:23 ` [9fans] " William K. Josephson
  2001-08-16 21:04 ` Boyd Roberts
  3 siblings, 1 reply; 12+ messages in thread
From: Douglas A. Gwyn @ 2001-08-14 16:37 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 9fans

Eric de Redelijkheid wrote:
> ... The editors, sam and acme are virtually unusable.

I don't know what you expect in a text editor, but I've used many
and "sam" is the one I prefer for almost every editing task.

> Why is it that such a simple task as editing the contents of a textfile
> must cause so much pain? At least some of you must have seen notepad.exe
> at work during your lifetime? It cant do much, but it gets the job done
> in a simple way!

I don't think software tools are suited for you, or perhaps the
other way around.

> Why is there not just one single command to create a new user, but do I
> need first to make the file /adm/users writable, edit this file (with
> more luck then wisdom), and type in at least three different commands.
> When I log on with the new username, I have to give another command to
> get the computer to present me a graphical user environment; which is a
> grey screen.
> ...
> btw: is there a shutdown command or do I just switch my laptop of?

Most people read the instructions.
I guess in your case, you could throw the laptop against a wall.


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 12+ messages in thread

* Re: [9fans] User Interface
  2001-08-14  9:46 [9fans] User Interface Eric de Redelijkheid
  2001-08-14 13:15 ` John Murdie
  2001-08-14 16:37 ` [9fans] " Douglas A. Gwyn
@ 2001-08-15 13:23 ` William K. Josephson
  2001-08-16 21:04 ` Boyd Roberts
  3 siblings, 0 replies; 12+ messages in thread
From: William K. Josephson @ 2001-08-15 13:23 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 9fans

On Tue, Aug 14, 2001 at 09:46:06AM +0000, Eric de Redelijkheid wrote:
> I trust that the concepts were well concidered when designing this 
> operating system, however I have never seen a more awkward user 
> interface since twm. The editors, sam and acme are virtually unusable. 
> Why is it that such a simple task as editing the contents of a textfile 
> must cause so much pain? At least some of you must have seen notepad.exe 
> at work during your lifetime? It can´t do much, but it gets the job done 
> in a simple way!

Actually, I think acme is the best new piece of software I've used
since I started using Unix a decade ago.  There are some minor
annoyances and the documentation could be better, however I appreciate
the economy of motion required to use the editor.  Plan 9 is not
especiauuuully kind to those who aren't willing to give new ideas and
new ways of doing things a chance :-)

> btw: is there a shutdown command or do I just switch my laptop of?

 disk/kfscmd halt followed by the Big Red Switch.

  -WJ

	Whenever people agree with me I always feel I must be wrong.
			-- Oscar Wilde


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 12+ messages in thread

* Re: [9fans] Re: User Interface
  2001-08-14 16:37 ` [9fans] " Douglas A. Gwyn
@ 2001-08-15 17:04   ` Boyd Roberts
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 12+ messages in thread
From: Boyd Roberts @ 2001-08-15 17:04 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 9fans

From: "Douglas A. Gwyn" <DAGwyn@null.net>
> I don't know what you expect in a text editor, but I've used many
> and "sam" is the one I prefer for almost every editing task.

first thing i do when i get to the new job -- sam.

> > Why is it that such a simple task as editing the contents of a textfile
> > must cause so much pain? At least some of you must have seen notepad.exe
> > at work during your lifetime? It cant do much, but it gets the job done
> > in a simple way!

really CR/LF?  get real.

> Most people read the instructions.
> I guess in your case, you could throw the laptop against a wall.

9mm is a lot more fun, but a bit more serious:

    http://home.fr.inter.net/boyd/banks/hsbc

well, they did say 'cut it into little pieces' ...




^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 12+ messages in thread

* Re: [9fans] User Interface
  2001-08-14  9:46 [9fans] User Interface Eric de Redelijkheid
                   ` (2 preceding siblings ...)
  2001-08-15 13:23 ` [9fans] " William K. Josephson
@ 2001-08-16 21:04 ` Boyd Roberts
  3 siblings, 0 replies; 12+ messages in thread
From: Boyd Roberts @ 2001-08-16 21:04 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 9fans

From: "Eric de Redelijkheid" <eric.de.redelijkheid@xs4all.nl>

> btw: is there a shutdown command or do I just switch my laptop of?

just switch it off and leave it off.




^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 12+ messages in thread

* Re: [9fans] Re: User Interface
@ 2001-08-24 18:30 David Gordon Hogan
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 12+ messages in thread
From: David Gordon Hogan @ 2001-08-24 18:30 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 9fans

> Should we change the topic to `Why VMS was better than UNIX because
> the C++ was better than C because of where you put the braces since
> ford is better than chevrolet, anyway, and high wing monoplanes are
> better than low wing ones bacause you can see the ground better.
> 
> Did I leave anything out?

Beta vs VHS.



^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 12+ messages in thread

* Re: [9fans] Re: User Interface
  2001-08-24 13:54 bwc
@ 2001-08-24 14:52 ` Dan Cross
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 12+ messages in thread
From: Dan Cross @ 2001-08-24 14:52 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 9fans

In article <20010824135325.E2FE5199D7@mail.cse.psu.edu> you write:
>Did I leave anything out?

Yes.  Coke is better than Pepsi.

	- Dan C.



^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 12+ messages in thread

* Re: [9fans] Re: User Interface
  2001-08-24 13:45 [9fans] " rob pike
@ 2001-08-24 14:19 ` Dan Cross
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 12+ messages in thread
From: Dan Cross @ 2001-08-24 14:19 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 9fans

In article <20010824134555.4D8A2199D7@mail.cse.psu.edu> you write:
>I'm confused.  Our copy of vi doesn't have a ~ command.
>Did someone put one in?  You should have told us.
>	grep '''~''' /sys/src/cmd/vi/*.[ch]

What, didn't you hear?  That's the new MIPS instruction for, ``halt and
catch fire.''  Dude, where have YOU been?  Shesh.

	- Dan C.



^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 12+ messages in thread

* Re: [9fans] Re: User Interface
@ 2001-08-24 13:54 bwc
  2001-08-24 14:52 ` Dan Cross
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 12+ messages in thread
From: bwc @ 2001-08-24 13:54 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 9fans

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 605 bytes --]

Having a mips emulator run instead of the expected grungy editor is
better than the program a version of SYSTEM V I once used would run.
If you executed `iv' instead of `vi' you got the `initialize volume'
command!

(Maybe rob doesn't care for discussions of BSD editor on 9fans.)

Should we change the topic to `Why VMS was better than UNIX because
the C++ was better than C because of where you put the braces since
ford is better than chevrolet, anyway, and high wing monoplanes are
better than low wing ones bacause you can see the ground better.

Did I leave anything out?

  Brantley

[-- Attachment #2: Type: message/rfc822, Size: 1214 bytes --]

From: "rob pike" <rob@plan9.bell-labs.com>
To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu
Subject: [9fans] Re: User Interface
Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2001 09:45:48 -0400
Message-ID: <20010824134555.4D8A2199D7@mail.cse.psu.edu>

I'm confused.  Our copy of vi doesn't have a ~ command.
Did someone put one in?  You should have told us.
	grep '''~''' /sys/src/cmd/vi/*.[ch]

-rob

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 12+ messages in thread

* [9fans] Re: User Interface
@ 2001-08-24 13:45 rob pike
  2001-08-24 14:19 ` Dan Cross
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 12+ messages in thread
From: rob pike @ 2001-08-24 13:45 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 9fans

I'm confused.  Our copy of vi doesn't have a ~ command.
Did someone put one in?  You should have told us.
	grep '''~''' /sys/src/cmd/vi/*.[ch]

-rob



^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 12+ messages in thread

end of thread, other threads:[~2001-08-24 18:30 UTC | newest]

Thread overview: 12+ messages (download: mbox.gz / follow: Atom feed)
-- links below jump to the message on this page --
2001-08-14  9:46 [9fans] User Interface Eric de Redelijkheid
2001-08-14 13:15 ` John Murdie
2001-08-14 14:11   ` Re[2]: " Matt
2001-08-14 16:37 ` [9fans] " Douglas A. Gwyn
2001-08-15 17:04   ` Boyd Roberts
2001-08-15 13:23 ` [9fans] " William K. Josephson
2001-08-16 21:04 ` Boyd Roberts
2001-08-24 13:45 [9fans] " rob pike
2001-08-24 14:19 ` Dan Cross
2001-08-24 13:54 bwc
2001-08-24 14:52 ` Dan Cross
2001-08-24 18:30 David Gordon Hogan

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