[9fans] memory stick

[9fans] memory stick

[boyd, rounin]

i have some mad plan to put the nvram on it for my cpu/auth/fs/etc server.

any suggestions/objections?

Re: [9fans] memory stick

[Russ Cox]

put the whole disk on it.

Re: [9fans] memory stick

[boyd, rounin]

> put the whole disk on it.

well they only had 128Mb, so i just had to buy that one :)

not exactly an RL-02 ...

Re: [9fans] memory stick

[boyd, rounin]

> put the whole disk on it.

i just put the whole [non tex] dist on it and have it booted [from disk]
on my 600 series VAIO.  needs a big of tinkering, but booting
_straight_ off the memory stick on a randomly chosen machine
would be a _cool thing_;  walk up to machine, jam in memory
stick and boot plan 9 :)

Re: [9fans] memory stick

[ron minnich]

On Wed, 28 May 2003, boyd, rounin wrote:

> i just put the whole [non tex] dist on it and have it booted [from disk]
> on my 600 series VAIO.  needs a big of tinkering, but booting
> _straight_ off the memory stick on a randomly chosen machine
> would be a _cool thing_;  walk up to machine, jam in memory
> stick and boot plan 9 :)

ya. very cool. we're doing similar with the CF stuff.

Hey, I found out what happens when you mess up the CMOS NVRAM with bad
keys etc. You have to zero CMOS, and then to make it a CPU again you have
to have good keys. No other option. That's good.

ron

Re: [9fans] memory stick

[Andrew]

On Wed, 28 May 2003, boyd, rounin wrote:

> i just put the whole [non tex] dist on it and have it booted [from disk]
> on my 600 series VAIO.  needs a big of tinkering, but booting
> _straight_ off the memory stick on a randomly chosen machine
> would be a _cool thing_;  walk up to machine, jam in memory
> stick and boot plan 9 :)

I do something similiar with bootable floppy disks, just stick one in
and assuming its on the network and has supported hardware off it goes.

Re: [9fans] memory stick

[Jason Gurtz]

Andrew wrote:

> I do something similiar with bootable floppy disks, just stick one in
> and assuming its on the network and has supported hardware off it goes.

This reminds me that I've seen floppy disk adapters that hold a
CF/SD/MM/Mem stick cards.

Might be usefull for machines that have no card reader attached or
helping that legendary floppy reliablity that I've come to love so much.

Cheers,

~Jason

--

Re: [9fans] memory stick

[boyd, rounin]

> I do something similiar with bootable floppy disks, just stick one in
> and assuming its on the network and has supported hardware off it goes.

did that with 2nd ed, but i'm not gonna wait that long -- sheesh ...

gawd, we'd be better off keying the in the boot loader with the 11/70's
front panel ...

Re: [9fans] memory stick

[ron minnich]

On Wed, 28 May 2003, boyd, rounin wrote:

> gawd, we'd be better off keying the in the boot loader with the 11/70's
> front panel ...


I've got an 11/50 panel here in the office if you can tell me the
sequence.

ron

Re: [9fans] memory stick

[boyd, rounin]

i can remember that on the console of an 11/34 it was:

   173000g<return>

Re: [9fans] memory stick

[Geoff Collyer]

Okay, for your 11/50 from V6's bproc(8):

     RK (drive 0):
        012700      mov     $rkda,r0
        177412
        005040      clr     -(r0)          / rkda cleared by start
        010040      mov     r0,-(r0)
        012740      mov     $5,-(r0)
        000005
        105710  1:  tstb    (r0)
        002376      bge     1b
        005007      clr     pc

     RP (drive 0)
        012700      mov     $rpmr,r0
        176726
        005040      clr     -(r0)
        005040      clr     -(r0)
        005040      clr     -(r0)
        010040      mov     r0,-(r0)
        012740      mov     $5,-(r0)
        000005
        105710  1:  tstb    (r0)
        002376      bge     1b
        005007      clr     pc

RKs were the 2.5MB cartridge disks and RPs were removable disk packs.

The TM-11 magtape bootstrap was only 6 words and I think I had it
memorised at one time:

     Magtape from load point:
        012700      mov     $mtcma,r0
        172526
        010040      mov     r0,-(r0)       / usr mt addr for wc
        012740      mov     $60003,-(r0)   / read 9-track
        060003
        000777      br      .              / loop; now halt and start at 0

Re: [9fans] memory stick

[boyd, rounin]

> RKs were the 2.5MB cartridge disks and RPs were removable disk packs.

well (as you know) the RK05 was a double sided [2x2.5Mb]
removable cartridge.  i've never seen an 11/50.

don't ever drop a removal pack [RM0[35]]

jjm & i once fixed a broken 32V rm03 root file system with a screwdriver,
tape, ls-120 (?), stand alone fsdb, adb and a 9 track tape :)

Re: [9fans] memory stick

[Geoff Collyer]

We're getting into PDP-11 trivia here.  The RK05s I used held exactly
4872 512-byte sectors.  (Remember that the V6 root file system was
4000 blocks, with 872 left over for swap.)

If memory serves, the 11/50 was an 11/45 with a small amount of (for
its time) very fast memory at the bottom of the physical address
space.  It was sold as a RSTS machine and the fast memory was just big
enough to hold the RSTS BASIC interpeter.

Re: [9fans] memory stick

[boyd, rounin]

> ... an 11/45

wasn't that sep i&d?  there was something special about the 45
and then there was those winchester memory/swap drives.

Re: [9fans] memory stick

[Douglas A. Gwyn]

boyd, rounin wrote:
>>... an 11/45
> wasn't that sep i&d?  there was something special about the 45
> and then there was those winchester memory/swap drives.

The PDP-11/45 (and /50, which had MOS memory instead of core)
was the first PDP-11 family member sporting separate I & D
address spaces.  It had a FastBus interconnect, but that was
transparent to system software.  Also I think the 11/45 was
the first supporting an FP11 (fast floating-point coprocessor)
option.  6th Ed. Unix came in two flavors, 11/40 and 11/45.

The RK05 came in a couple of flavors, fixed vs. removable.
Many of the early Unix distributions were on RK05 cartridge
(removable) disks (list price of a blank RK05 disk was $105);
most if not all of the others were on 9-track 1/2" magtape.

There are still many PDP-11s in operation, as well as usable
emulations in software on the PC and other platforms.  It's
kind of nice to be able to open a window and run a PDP-11 Unix
in it.

Re: [9fans] memory stick

[boyd, rounin]

> Also I think the 11/45 was the first supporting an FP11
> (fast floating-point coprocessor)

yeah, that sounds right.  i could use google, but that would be too slow.

i'm pretty sure the 11/45 i used to play with had an FP11.

Re: [9fans] memory stick

[matt]

Douglas A. Gwyn wrote:

> boyd, rounin wrote:
>
>>> ... an 11/45
>>
>> wasn't that sep i&d?  there was something special about the 45
>> and then there was those winchester memory/swap drives.
>
>
> The PDP-11/45



I started in a Research Machines Z80

http://www.zoo.co.uk/~z0001275/rm380z.htm

then I upgraded to a BBC model B (in '83 iirc)
I still have it here

Re: [9fans] memory stick

[Martin C.Atkins]

On Thu, 29 May 2003 10:12:17 +0100 matt <matt@proweb.co.uk> wrote:
>...
>
> I started in a Research Machines Z80
>
> http://www.zoo.co.uk/~z0001275/rm380z.htm
>
> then I upgraded to a BBC model B (in '83 iirc)
> I still have it here

Wow! That's almost exactly my history too! Thanks for the link, it
brought back many happy memories. The 380Z had the best
"Software front panel" (in ROM), that I've ever seen, before or since.

I've still got an RML 8" floppy which I would love to be able to read
- just to copy everything off for posterity! :-)

Martin
--
Martin C. Atkins			   martin@mca-ltd.com
Mission Critical Applications Ltd, U.K.	   http://www.mca-ltd.com{/,/martin}

Re: [9fans] memory stick

[matt]

>
>
>>then I upgraded to a BBC model B (in '83 iirc)
>>I still have it here
>>
slightly ambiguous, it's the BBC I have, not the 380Z,

>>
>>
>
>Wow! That's almost exactly my history too! Thanks for the link, it
>brought back many happy memories. The 380Z had the best
>"Software front panel" (in ROM), that I've ever seen, before or since.
>
just basic for me, I was 10/11 y.o.
We only got access to it outside of school hours but luckily I was the
only one of the 1000+ pupils interested in doing so.

Re: [9fans] memory stick

[rog]

> >Wow! That's almost exactly my history too! Thanks for the link, it
> >brought back many happy memories. The 380Z had the best
> >"Software front panel" (in ROM), that I've ever seen, before or since.
> >
> just basic for me, I was 10/11 y.o.
> We only got access to it outside of school hours but luckily I was the
> only one of the 1000+ pupils interested in doing so.

i also remember the 380Z with fondness (and the "J103" code...
amazing how these things stay with you!).

i used to use it to produce documents, printed on our new flash
daisywheel, using a program called TexEd AFAIR, which was my first
introduction to troff-like escape sequences.  when i came across troff
on unix later, i felt completely at home!

i never did anything but the most redimentary programming on the 380Z
though: BBC B's were the thing.  it still amazes me how fast BBC basic
was, especially when i recall it used 32-bits (floating point by
default!)  for all its arithmetic.

it was partly the abiding memory of that gloriously simple platform
that made me veer towards plan 9, i think.

Re: [9fans] memory stick

[Dan Cross]

> i also remember the 380Z with fondness (and the "J103" code...
> amazing how these things stay with you!).

I don't know about that, but when my mother went into labor while
pregnant with me, my father drove her to the hospital in a Datsun
280Z.  Now that was a nice car; the classic definition of sporty, with
a straight six engine and a four speed manual transmission.  I once
rebuilt the clutch for my brother, who held on to it for many years,
but gave it up shortly before he was killed.  Somewhat ironic, that.

	- Dan C.

Re: [9fans] memory stick

[boyd, rounin]

nah, the 180B

Re: [9fans] memory stick

[Derek Fawcus]

On Fri, May 30, 2003 at 02:55:19PM +0100, rog@vitanuova.com wrote:
> > >Wow! That's almost exactly my history too! Thanks for the link, it
> > >brought back many happy memories. The 380Z had the best
> > >"Software front panel" (in ROM), that I've ever seen, before or since.
> > >
> > just basic for me, I was 10/11 y.o.
> > We only got access to it outside of school hours but luckily I was the
> > only one of the 1000+ pupils interested in doing so.
>
> i also remember the 380Z with fondness (and the "J103" code...
> amazing how these things stay with you!).

You're not the only one,  we also had one at middle school.  We eventually
got a second one.

As I recall it was my first real play about with computers - that and a
PET.

I recall typing in the verion of missile command that was printed in
PCW,  also as I recall someone at school wrote a version on Joust for
it.

> i never did anything but the most redimentary programming on the 380Z
> though: BBC B's were the thing.  it still amazes me how fast BBC basic
> was, especially when i recall it used 32-bits (floating point by
> default!)  for all its arithmetic.

I seem to recall that the Beeb came out a bit later - the 380Z was at
school when I started,  the Beeb came out what a couple of years later,
since I also seem to recall wanting a ZX80/ZX81 around that time - must
have been '80/'81.

Yeah Beeb basic was 'good',  the best bit thought was the built in
assembler!

In fact I've still got my Beeb (Model A upgraded to model B so as to
save 50 quid),  kept for the express purpose of playing Elite,  thought
the last time I played Elite was on a Beeb emulator.

I guess at some point I should dig the beast out of it's box and see
if it still works...

DF

Re: [9fans] memory stick

[Jack Johnson]

On Fri, 30 May 2003, Derek Fawcus wrote:
> I seem to recall that the Beeb came out a bit later - the 380Z was at
> school when I started,  the Beeb came out what a couple of years later,
> since I also seem to recall wanting a ZX80/ZX81 around that time - must
> have been '80/'81.

The Timex/Sinclair 1000 (the American ZX81) was my first home computer,
must've been '81 or so as well.  I still remember buying my T/S
2068 when all my friends were buying C64s and later realizing I had
probably made a mistake.

My 2068 is still in the garage, next to the BeBox.

Growing up on a T/S 1000 makes me pine for a Jupiter Ace to add to my
collection of "doorstops", as my wife calls them.

-Jack

Re: [9fans] memory stick

[matt]

>
>
>In fact I've still got my Beeb (Model A upgraded to model B so as to
>save 50 quid),  kept for the express purpose of playing Elite,  thought
>the last time I played Elite was on a Beeb emulator.
>
>
http://www.proweb.co.uk/~matt/Elite.jpg


Now if only I'd kept the boxes of Leisure Suit Larry

Re: [9fans] memory stick

[Ralph Corderoy]

Hi,

> i never did anything but the most redimentary programming on the 380Z
> though: BBC B's were the thing.  it still amazes me how fast BBC basic
> was, especially when i recall it used 32-bits (floating point by
> default!)  for all its arithmetic.

IIRC, an unadorned variable, e.g. `foo' was a float stored in a non-IEEE
five-byte format.  `foo%' was a 32-bit integer.  `foo$' was a string
with maximum length of 255 bytes.

It was fast, and the best BASIC around at the time.  Largely due to the
skill of its creator, Sophie Wilson.  http://www.sophie.org.uk/  She
later went on to design the ARM chip's instruction set, ARM originally
standing for Acorn RISC Machine.  BBC BASIC written in assembly for the
ARM by Sophie has traditionally been a very good torture test for ARM
instruction set emulators because of its author's in-depth knowledge.

Another reason it was the best BASIC was it had 16K of ROM space all to
itself thanks to the BBC's `sideway ROM' feature which allowed 16K for
the OS, another 16K for the BASIC interpreter, 16K for the floppy disc
filing system, etc.  Each being paged in at the same address in memory
as required.  Most other home computers had, say, 16K for the
OS+BASIC+everything else.

Cheers,

--
Ralph Corderoy.      http://inputplus.co.uk/ralph/     http://troff.org/

Re: [9fans] memory stick (pdps really)

[Bruce Ellis]

What are we neglecting here?

Sure I love the PDP series.  But are we forgetting the warmth factor?

Many a time in the golden Basser days we'd get back from
the pub and I would slip my feet under the 11/40.

Actually now that the temp in Sydney is threateningly close
to getting not-hot I might have to power up the Microvax as
a comfort device.  Well it runs 10th Ed so it's fun anyway.

Yeah I should have better things to do.

brucee

Re: [9fans] memory stick

[boyd, rounin]

> It was sold as a RSTS machine ...

uggh, with with an LA-25 ... 'special'.

Re: [9fans] memory stick

[Donald Brownlee]

A kind employer once sent me to
some DEC training in Santa Clara,
Augustine Dr., black, glass building,
now, no doubt, vacant or torn down.
Anyway, we must have spent at least
a day learning to boot the beast with
the switches, but the machine at work
had an option -- something like, "Console
ROM ODT" -- where you could just type
@173???g or something similar. Maybe "@"
was ODTs prompt. The Supnick simulator may
require something similar.

Re: [9fans] memory stick

[Douglas A. Gwyn]

Donald Brownlee wrote:
> ... an option -- something like, "Console
> ROM ODT" -- where you could just type
> @173???g or something similar. Maybe "@"
> was ODTs prompt. The Supnick simulator may
> require something similar.

Console ODT was near universal in the LSI-11
(Qbus) family.  Unibus PDP-11s more usually
had device-specific boot ROMs on a separate
board.

Supnick's SIMH has a console interface common
across all the computer simulations (HP 2100,
H516, PDP-15, Nova, etc.); it allows one to
not only peek and poke RAM but also to attach
host files as specified device (image)s, etc.

Re: [9fans] memory stick

[boyd, rounin]

> @173???g or something similar. Maybe "@"
> was ODTs prompt.

@ may well have been the prompt, but it was 173000g<return>

sounds plausible,  'cos you need some feedback to say that
the machine is ready to talk to you.

Re: [9fans] memory stick

[boyd, rounin]

> ... ls-120 (?)

nah, musta be an LA-120; the standard 11/780 console.

Re: [9fans] memory stick

[Andrew]

On Wed, May 28, 2003 at 10:03:50PM +0200, boyd, rounin wrote:
> > I do something similiar with bootable floppy disks, just stick one in
> > and assuming its on the network and has supported hardware off it goes.
>
> did that with 2nd ed, but i'm not gonna wait that long -- sheesh ...
>
> gawd, we'd be better off keying the in the boot loader with the 11/70's
> front panel ...
>
>

id like to see you key in the boot loader in under 30 seconds.
with compressed kernels it really isnt that bad, and when you lack
hard drives to boot from you dont have much coice.

Re: [9fans] memory stick

[boyd, rounin]

> with compressed kernels it really isnt that bad

if you need to compress the kernel, your kernel is _way_ too big.

kernel = small, no?

Re: [9fans] memory stick

[Andrew]

i keep them small, as small as I can manage, but they load off a floppy
faster when they are compressed since I can decompress faster than i
can transfer from a floppy.

The only kernel that I actually need to compress is the klunky fossil
kernel which needs to have rc and all sorts of other things built
in. Soon though I will make it boot into kfs instead of something (now
that I have many small hard drives) and that process will be unnecesary.

On Wed, May 28, 2003 at 11:17:55PM +0200, boyd, rounin wrote:
> > with compressed kernels it really isnt that bad
>
> if you need to compress the kernel, your kernel is _way_ too big.
>
> kernel = small, no?
>
>

Re: [9fans] memory stick

[boyd, rounin]

i love floppies, let's all revert to the 8" ones (iirc)

Re: [9fans] memory stick

[bwc]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 110 bytes --]

Paper tape was more fun--all that chad, flinging old code!

What about a USB paper tape reader?

 Brantley

[-- Attachment #2: Type: message/rfc822, Size: 1816 bytes --]

From: "boyd, rounin" <boyd@insultant.net>
To: <9fans@cse.psu.edu>
Subject: Re: [9fans] memory stick
Date: Wed, 28 May 2003 23:31:43 +0200
Message-ID: <00ea01c32560$89916080$e3944251@insultant.net>

i love floppies, let's all revert to the 8" ones (iirc)

Re: [9fans] memory stick

[Douglas A. Gwyn]

bwc@coraid.com wrote:
> What about a USB paper tape reader?

I have one on a serial port.

Re: [9fans] memory stick

[Douglas A. Gwyn]

boyd, rounin wrote:
> i love floppies, let's all revert to the 8" ones (iirc)

About 128KB, would sure help keep kernels small!

Re: [9fans] memory stick

[boyd, rounin]

> ya. very cool. we're doing similar with the CF stuff.

gimme a few secs ad i'll see what i can come up with :)