Re: [9fans] PowerPC Booting

Re: [9fans] PowerPC Booting

[Geoff Collyer, geoff]

I don't believe anybody has Plan 9 running on the Mac.
See the archives for what it would take to make it run.

Re: [9fans] PowerPC Booting

[Geoff Collyer, geoff]

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You're looking at a non-trivial bit of work.  For one thing, the Apple
Ethernet interfaces are unique to Apple, so we have no drivers for
them (currently anyway).  But 9mtx isn't going to work if you get it
loaded for a lot of other reasons; see the archives.

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From: northern snowfall <dbailey27@ameritech.net>
To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu
Subject: Re: [9fans] PowerPC Booting
Date: Thu, 03 Jul 2003 00:47:20 -0500
Message-ID: <3F03C368.4080308@ameritech.net>

>
>
>I don't believe anybody has Plan 9 running on the Mac.
>See the archives for what it would take to make it run.
>
Are there any docs on how Open Firmware booting works? All
I can find are binaries and techniques that use XCOFF on
floppy disks. The ether card in my Old World isn't bootable
as there is no OF-ROM in it. I don't want to install plan9
on the disk, I'd like to save the MacOS9. Thus, writing a
boot loader is probably in my best interest.

Any URLs/etc are appreciated.

Don

http://www.7f.no-ip.com/~north_

[9fans] PowerPC Booting

[northern snowfall]

Hey all,
    How is everyone booting Plan9 on their Mac? I'm
trying to boot off a floppy. Of course, 9mtx wont' be
recognized since it's not XCOFF. Any suggestions?

Don

http://www.7f.no-ip.com/~north_

Re: [9fans] PowerPC Booting

[Tad Hunt]

In message <3F03C63E.3060000@ameritech.net>, you said:
;So, if anyone out there *has any docs/tips/pointers* for generating
;boot files to manage floppy boots, let me know.

Check out the NetBSD project.  I know they run on power mac's

www.netbsd.org

-Tad

Re: [9fans] PowerPC Booting

[northern snowfall]

>
>
>I don't believe anybody has Plan 9 running on the Mac.
>See the archives for what it would take to make it run.
>
Are there any docs on how Open Firmware booting works? All
I can find are binaries and techniques that use XCOFF on
floppy disks. The ether card in my Old World isn't bootable
as there is no OF-ROM in it. I don't want to install plan9
on the disk, I'd like to save the MacOS9. Thus, writing a
boot loader is probably in my best interest.

Any URLs/etc are appreciated.

Don

http://www.7f.no-ip.com/~north_

Re: [9fans] PowerPC Booting

[northern snowfall]

>
>
>You're looking at a non-trivial bit of work.  For one thing, the Apple
>Ethernet interfaces are unique to Apple, so we have no drivers for
>them (currently anyway).  But 9mtx isn't going to work if you get it
>loaded for a lot of other reasons; see the archives.
>
I don't care if it's non-trivial. I want plan9 on this mac and I will
get it on this mac.

The ether is just a tulip. The driver is already in the mtx tree. There
will be issues with bandit, sure, but I want to learn this architecture:
case closed.

So, if anyone out there *has any docs/tips/pointers* for generating
boot files to manage floppy boots, let me know.

Don

http://www.7f.no-ip.com/~north_

Re: [9fans] PowerPC Booting

[John Packer, john]

You've probably seen these, but try:

	http://playground.sun.com/1275/bindings/ppc/release/ppc-2_0.html
	http://playground.sun.com/1275/home.html
	http://www.openfirmware.org

as well as the nedbsd source.

Also, you might have a look at the 2ed Plan9 sparc sources.  The sparc
PROM is similiar to what you will find on a Mac.

Re: [9fans] PowerPC Booting

[Tomas]

On Thu, 3 Jul 2003 at 7:15am, northern snowfall wrote:

> >as well as the nedbsd source.
> >
> Ah, the NetBSD source helped. It solved the fd-just-
> doesnt-seem-to-CLAIM issue. My Power Macintosh refuses
> to boot certain devices if the output-device is set to
> the on-board video.
>
> Booting NetBSD bootdisks blind works properly if output-
> device is set to !screen. However, I have yet-another-
> problem. I don't have a MiniDIN8 serial cable for the
> Macintosh. Nor do I have a null modem.
>
> It seems that I can generate a null modem fairly easily,
> according to:
>     http://www.netbsd.org/Documentation/Hardware/Misc/serial.html#mac
>
> However, I am faced with several problems:
>     a) I have to build my own MiniDIN8 cable
>         1) what wires do i use?
>         2) how do i get the 'connector'...?
>         3) how does it interface with the 'null modem'
>     b) I have to build my own null modem
>         1) see a){1,2}
>     c) I have zero experience with wiring and am extremely
>         nervous about this. I don't want to lose this Mac,
>         even though I bought it cheap.
>         1) every machine is precious
>
> I'd love some assistance in building a serial cable from the
> MiniDIN8 to a standard i86pc serial port. I'm very willing to
> try things out, as long as the factors are known and I'm not
> putting the hardware at a risk of shorting out, etc.
>
> I'm sure there are peopel on this list with experience in
> this area of work. I'd appreciate the help.

Trying to install and run a headless and diskless SGI Indy, I am
also having problems due to MiniDIN8 connectors. It's no fun
changing boot parameters in the PROM and trying to boot diskless
when there's only a keyboard, ethernet and power cable connected
to the machine -- I'd like to see that I really type in correct
values, and also why the boot fails halfway through.

So far it's been impossible to find a MiniDIN8<->DB9 serial cable
(or a MiniDIN8<->DB25 plus a DB25<->DB9 converter), or even a
MiniDIN8 connector. But I hear there's a Mac store near the
Portland airport that might have some... anyways, I've been
thinking about simply cutting off one end of a DB9 cable and
plugging in the wires, one by one, directly into the contact on
the Indy, using the pinout maps on the URL you mentioned above,
as I can't seem to get my hands on a MiniDIN8 connector. Just
haven't had the time yet.

Building a cable isn't that hard. A soldering iron is helpful,
but there are also snap-in connectors for us who don't like
soldering. I doubt there are snap-in connectors for MiniDIN8
though, just DB9/DB25... but the pins on connectors are numbered,
and it's usually a breeze to build a cable if one has
instructions such as those on the NetBSD page.

I'll try to get time to fiddle with this during my vacation, and
if I have any success I'll let you know.

Finally, aren't there some retailers specializing in Mac stuff in
the US, from which one should be able to get a MiniDIN8<->DB25
cable?  That might be the best solution. If anyone knows, I'd
appreciate it if they shared.

/Tomas

Re: [9fans] PowerPC Booting

[northern snowfall]

>
>
>as well as the nedbsd source.
>
Ah, the NetBSD source helped. It solved the fd-just-
doesnt-seem-to-CLAIM issue. My Power Macintosh refuses
to boot certain devices if the output-device is set to
the on-board video.

Booting NetBSD bootdisks blind works properly if output-
device is set to !screen. However, I have yet-another-
problem. I don't have a MiniDIN8 serial cable for the
Macintosh. Nor do I have a null modem.

It seems that I can generate a null modem fairly easily,
according to:
    http://www.netbsd.org/Documentation/Hardware/Misc/serial.html#mac

However, I am faced with several problems:
    a) I have to build my own MiniDIN8 cable
        1) what wires do i use?
        2) how do i get the 'connector'...?
        3) how does it interface with the 'null modem'
    b) I have to build my own null modem
        1) see a){1,2}
    c) I have zero experience with wiring and am extremely
        nervous about this. I don't want to lose this Mac,
        even though I bought it cheap.
        1) every machine is precious

I'd love some assistance in building a serial cable from the
MiniDIN8 to a standard i86pc serial port. I'm very willing to
try things out, as long as the factors are known and I'm not
putting the hardware at a risk of shorting out, etc.

I'm sure there are peopel on this list with experience in
this area of work. I'd appreciate the help.

Don

http://www.7f.no-ip.com/~north_

Re: [9fans] PowerPC Booting

[D. Brownlee]

northern snowfall wrote:
> Are there any docs on how Open Firmware booting works? All

At netbsd.org, look at the 'macppc' port, you'll find
links to Open Firmware, booting macs from disk or network.

Re: [9fans] PowerPC Booting

[D. Brownlee]

> I've already got my own XCOFF image loading, I just can't see
> it yet. Only 1,000 more things to go!
>

I don't think getting Plan 9 working on a power pc mac is as
hard as some of the archived discussions might indicate. With
the NetBSD macppc source, you can easily find alot of the
low level software/hardware interface issues solved, and
recent macs use PCI, ATI graphics and IDE drives, so the
hardware isn't totally proprietary anymore.

One suggestion though: NetBSD's 'macppc' port, v1.5, had some
buggy USB code, which is fixed in 1.6.1.

Good Luck! (I have an iMac I'd  like to run Plan 9 on)

Re: [9fans] PowerPC Booting

[northern snowfall]

> At netbsd.org, look at the 'macppc' port, you'll find
> links to Open Firmware, booting macs from disk or network.
>
I actually meant the low level OF interface between the
boot image and the OF that chooses it. The NetBSD ofwboot
sources were pretty enlightening for this issue.

I've already got my own XCOFF image loading, I just can't see
it yet. Only 1,000 more things to go!

Don

http://www.7f.no-ip.com/~north_

Re: [9fans] PowerPC Booting

[matt]

>
> Don't get too excited, I'm mainly focused on getting plan9
> on my Power Mac 5400/120.


that's exciting enough, a quick trip to ebay sees them at $20

Re: [9fans] PowerPC Booting

[northern snowfall]

> Good Luck! (I have an iMac I'd  like to run Plan 9 on)


Don't get too excited, I'm mainly focused on getting plan9
on my Power Mac 5400/120. Further research would probably
be of interest to me, sure, but, it'd have to be a concerted
effort since I don't have all the hardware for testing.
I wont release code unless I test it, especially if the code
is hardware related.

Don

http://www.7f.no-ip.com/~north_


>

Re: [9fans] PowerPC Booting

[Jack Johnson]

On Thu, 2003-07-03 at 05:14, Tomas wrote:
> On Thu, 3 Jul 2003 at 7:15am, northern snowfall wrote:
> > I'd love some assistance in building a serial cable from the
> > MiniDIN8 to a standard i86pc serial port. I'm very willing to
> > try things out, as long as the factors are known and I'm not
> > putting the hardware at a risk of shorting out, etc.
> So far it's been impossible to find a MiniDIN8<->DB9 serial cable
> (or a MiniDIN8<->DB25 plus a DB25<->DB9 converter), or even a
> MiniDIN8 connector.

I've got a Wyse 60 from a garage sale and I went to some random Mac
store and bought a standard Macintosh modem cable (MiniDIN8<->DB25) and
have had zero problems.

Another trick you can use if you need a serial console from a Mac (and
maybe the Indy, too) is to use another old Mac and find an appropriate
cable.  You'll find they come in two types: ones with a little Apple
symbol on the connector and one with two-way arrows:

<---
--->

The latter seem to make fine null modem cables.

As for rolling your own, I'm also a wiring loser, but your local
severe-geek store (looks like a Radio Shack on steroids) should have
MiniDIN8 connectors, and if you're lucky or brave you may be able to
find a MiniDIN8<->RJ45 adapter, which means you could get a
DB9/DB25<->RJ45 (very easy to find) for the other end, some cable, ends
and a crimper and do some experimentation pretty easily, sans soldering
iron.

Good luck!

-Jack

Re: [9fans] PowerPC Booting

[Geoff Collyer, geoff]

I'm not claiming that it's impossibly hard to port Plan 9 to the Mac
(and I'd be happy to have it running on more common systems, not just
PCs and bitsys), just that it will take some work.

I'd start by looking at a current Darwin release, though I have found
that it takes a while to distill BSD and Linux code, especially
drivers, to their essentials, since they tend to be excessively
complex.  As a recent example, 3ware's Linux driver for their IDE RAID
controller is a 4,174 lines long (3,155 NCSL).  That's over 74 pages,
printed with pr; it's a short book.  This is insane!  It's just a
bloody controller (and the hardware is supposed to be doing most of
the work, as it should).  The entire Unix V6 kernel was only 11,600
lines.  Admittedly, the OpenBSD 3ware driver is just 1,550 lines, but
that's still too big.  It's also true that hardware is even more of a
pain in the ass than it used to be, but over 4,000 lines to drive a
disk controller is just bloat.

As you've alluded, there's also a difference between having Plan 9
running on a particular Mac and having it running on all (or even just
New World) Macs.  For instance, for newer Macs, you'll need USB, USB
keyboard and, for terminals, USB mouse support, unless you can get by
with using the OpenFirmware routines.  I also don't know if the
existing Power PC ports of Plan 9 are prepared to cope with multiple
processors, which isn't fatal, but it would be good to exploit a
second processor on machines that have them.

Re: [9fans] PowerPC Booting

[Jake Luck]

North:

for OW-booting you might want to take a look at BootX
http://penguinppc.org/~benh/ It bootstraps off a
running MacOS which gives you a lot of facilities such
as filesystem network etc.

Good luck

jake

[9fans] PowerPC Booting

[A. Baker]

Mac cables can be bought at resale shops and flea
markets.

<---
--->

Search:

MiniDIN8
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=ISO-8859-1&q=MiniDIN8&btnG=Google+Search

http://www.national-tech.com/specs/10m3-06115.htm

MiniDIN8 null
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=ISO-8859-1&q=MiniDIN8+null&btnG=Google+Search


http://www.hinton.demon.co.uk/mac/mac_if.html#null

Good luck, I'd love to see Plan 9 PPC.

=====
Boojum

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