[9fans] DMR's OS :(

[9fans] DMR's OS :(

[ralph]

>If, like a majority of Linux users, you are a Windows refugee,
>two commands in a row without a crash and you are ecstatic.

well, I wasn't going to post any more on this subject, however,
I just ran across a website (http://ufo.its.kun.nl/uptime/)
that tracks server uptimes.  number one on the list is
PenguinMail, an i586 running Linux 2.0.30.  it has been
up continuously for 359 days.  (I guess they don't have
to power down when they vacuum...)

r

[9fans] DMR's OS :(

[Russ]

> My organizer has never crashed on me, and I've had it since before Unix
> existed. It does OCR without having to learn someone's handwriting,
> voice recognition, supports I18N, has almost unlimited storage capacity,
> and an easy-to-use (actually, invisible) OS/GUI.  It requires no batteries
> and has survived several collisions against concrete, ice and skulls.
> I've never forgotten it, needed to back it up, swapped the hardware or
> patched the software.  Hopefully, I never will.

That's strange.  I've had quite a different experience.
Mine is a newer model, ten years younger than Unix.      
It requires daily down time or it mostly stops functioning.  
Proper (and frequent!) care and feeding is essential as 
well, unlike (say) a Palm Pilot that lasts three months 
on a single set of batteries.

Despite the almost unlimited storage capacity, throughput
is comparatively (and frustratingly!) small.  Long-term data
loss is increasingly a problem and it doesn't come with ECC
memory.  Computational power is annoyingly limited;   
it would be nice if there were an upgrade kit to add
a couple extra processors.

Russ

[9fans] DMR's OS :(

[Douglas]

Douglas A. Gwyn wrote:
> 
> Steve Kotsopoulos wrote:
> > My organizer has never crashed on me, and I've had it since before Unix
<<snip>>
> Furthermore, its self-diagnostic program never reports any errors ...
> whether or not there are any!

Tru, buht tha spel chekker iz limmited.

-- 
Doug Fraser
dwfraser@lucent.com

[9fans] DMR's OS :(

[Douglas]

Steve Kotsopoulos wrote:
> My organizer has never crashed on me, and I've had it since before Unix
> existed. It does OCR without having to learn someone's handwriting,
> voice recognition, supports I18N, has almost unlimited storage capacity,
> and an easy-to-use (actually, invisible) OS/GUI.  It requires no batteries
> and has survived several collisions against concrete, ice and skulls.
> I've never forgotten it, needed to back it up, swapped the hardware or
> patched the software.  Hopefully, I never will.

Furthermore, its self-diagnostic program never reports any errors ...
whether or not there are any!

[9fans] DMR's OS :(

[Elliott]

> Does it have the same source-code coolness?

it's possible to buy a source licence, but the price i heard
was well out of my league. i don't think buying the source
is a realistic option for an individual.

as long as the documentation is so vague, there's unlikely
to be a free alternative. i know i couldn't guess the format
of the link section, for example.

P.S. i've just realised (and wasn't in hold mode!) that you
might not mean kernel source. if you're talking about the
source to the contents of /bin, then /appl is the place to
look. /appl/cmd/sh.b is the source to /dis/sh.dis, for
example. unfortunately, things like the TK graphics library
aren't written in limbo. so you don't get any source there,
and are limited in what you can do to (say) the window
manager.

-- 
quest'avventura // ah, come diavolo // mai finira'?

[9fans] DMR's OS :(

[Richard]

James A. Robinson writes:

>From what I've read, inferno has the same namespace coolness
>that Plan9/Brazil has. Think about how nice that would be for a
>hand-held.

Does it have the same source-code coolness?  In other words,
can anyone who has Inferno get the source code for the whole
thing?

[9fans] DMR's OS :(

[Steve]

Dave Presotto wrote:
> My palm pilot has been up for 2 years without a crash.  It did
> flake out 2 years ago when I let the batteries run down though.

My organizer has never crashed on me, and I've had it since before Unix
existed. It does OCR without having to learn someone's handwriting,
voice recognition, supports I18N, has almost unlimited storage capacity,
and an easy-to-use (actually, invisible) OS/GUI.  It requires no batteries
and has survived several collisions against concrete, ice and skulls.
I've never forgotten it, needed to back it up, swapped the hardware or
patched the software.  Hopefully, I never will.

Computer hardware and software still has a long way to go.

[9fans] DMR's OS :(

[steve_kilbane]

On 10/11/98 10:22:28 Dharaneedharan Vilwanathan wrote:

> With new communication mechanisms like wireless modem, waveLAN, irDA,
bluetooth,
> etc., things seem to be very promising. In fact, in an Inferno based
solution,
> you will only need to have a device with display and input method.
> Everything else can be in a remote place.

I'm not at all convinced by this. The key attribute of hand-helds is that
they work, wherever you go. If there's any requirement on communications,
they're going to fall over at some point. There's a big leap between being
able to make use of a network while it's there, and having to have one all
the time. Does Inferno support  data replication and conciliation?

Having said that, I find the idea of replaceable application servers deeply
attractive. At the moment, as you move around, your cell-phone attaches to
different cells. Systems like Ricochet could also an Inferno-based server
that provides facilities such as Dharaneedharan mentions "locally", while
your personal data either lives on your palmtop, or on the other side of
the world.

steve

[9fans] DMR's OS :(

[Dharaneedharan]

> > What is the merrit to have Inferno on note PC?
> 
> From what I've read, inferno has the same namespace coolness
> that Plan9/Brazil has. Think about how nice that would be for a
> hand-held. Instead of needing to squeeze apps into the tiny 1-4mb
> memory-storage on a pilot (or spending big bucks to get an 8mb chip),
> you could have all the storage be on a "pilot-server" sitting on a
> computer with a real harddrive.
> 
> 	o No more worries about backing up the pilot
> 	o Almost automatic groupware funcionality
> 	o You could "download" software to the pilot
> 		(in reality, your harddisk) via your computer's
> 		network connection -- instant install without
> 		the need for serial-cable downloads. 
> 	o No more need to hotsync between your PC and your pilot.
> 		both apps read the same files!
> 	o Pilot hardware can be dedicated more toward
> 		to screen i/o, and cache.
> 	o Having the equiv of /bin/cpu would be nice!
> 
> They have tiny ricochet modems (wireless PPP-capable modems) that are
> about the size of the pilot. *I* think it would be cool. :)
> 
> > I have no idea on Inferno though. ;_;
> 
> 
http://www.lucent-inferno.com/Pages/Developers/Documentation/White_Papers/	

The next version the same project had Papyrus handwriting recognition
module running in Inferno with file tree interface. So we were even able to
keep
the recognizer itself in the network. It was evident that a powerful
multi-lingual
recognizer with huge dictionaries and look-up tables can be kept in the
host
while the device is still of same size.

With new communication mechanisms like wireless modem, waveLAN, irDA,
bluetooth,
etc., things seem to be very promising. In fact, in an Inferno based
solution,
you will only need to have a device with display and input method.
Everything 
else can be in a remote place. Imagine using a thin device with LCD display
and a keyboard anywhere to browse, organize personal information, do home
automation, etc!!

Regards,
dharani

dharani@dante.mh.lucent.com

[9fans] DMR's OS :(

[Nigel]

Well put. It's disappointing that this needed to be said, since
I would have thought it was self-evident.

Let's get back to the jokes.

-----Original Message-----
From: Douglas A. Gwyn [mailto:DAGwyn@null.net]
Sent: Monday, November 09, 1998 11:01 PM
To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu
Subject: Re: [9fans] DMR's OS :(


I suspect that, like me, Dennis uses the right tool for the job.
Plan 9 is wonderful, but it isn't supported by commercial apps.
There is no way that a small development team can provide all
the useful apps that one can obtain (free or cheaply) for the
Windows environment.  For example, I require Photoshop, S-Plus,
and Mathematica or some close equivalent, but there is (to my
knowledge) no close equivalent available on Plan 9.

Consequently, my own PC can be booted into Windows 95, NT,
Plan 9, or Solaris, all with C/C++ development environments,
and hosts Inferno and Java Workshop as well.  I get to choose
the most appropriate environment for whatever I need to do.

[9fans] DMR's OS :(

[James]

> What is the merrit to have Inferno on note PC?

>From what I've read, inferno has the same namespace coolness
that Plan9/Brazil has. Think about how nice that would be for a
hand-held. Instead of needing to squeeze apps into the tiny 1-4mb
memory-storage on a pilot (or spending big bucks to get an 8mb chip),
you could have all the storage be on a "pilot-server" sitting on a
computer with a real harddrive.

	o No more worries about backing up the pilot
	o Almost automatic groupware funcionality
	o You could "download" software to the pilot
		(in reality, your harddisk) via your computer's
		network connection -- instant install without
		the need for serial-cable downloads. 
	o No more need to hotsync between your PC and your pilot.
		both apps read the same files!
	o Pilot hardware can be dedicated more toward
		to screen i/o, and cache.
	o Having the equiv of /bin/cpu would be nice!

They have tiny ricochet modems (wireless PPP-capable modems) that are
about the size of the pilot. *I* think it would be cool. :)

> I have no idea on Inferno though. ;_;

	http://www.lucent-inferno.com/Pages/Developers/Documentation/White_Papers/	
	
Jim

[9fans] DMR's OS :(

[okamoto]

>Since there is Linux for the pilot, is there going to be Inferno
>for the pilot? :P

What is the merrit to have Inferno on note PC?
I have no idea on Inferno though. ;_;

Kenji

[9fans] DMR's OS :(

[James]

> I have to now, it didn't survive my last flight, the circuit
> board flexed a bit too much.  However, the OS is still working,
> it just doesn't drive most of the display anymore.

Since there is Linux for the pilot, is there going to be Inferno
for the pilot? :P


Jim

[9fans] DMR's OS :(

[presotto]

I have to now, it didn't survive my last flight, the circuit
board flexed a bit too much.  However, the OS is still working,
it just doesn't drive most of the display anymore.

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Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1998 23:22:42 -0500
To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu
From: ralph muha <rmuha@minimal.com>
Subject: Re: [9fans] DMR's OS :(
Sender: owner-9fans@cse.psu.edu
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>My palm pilot has been up for 2 years without a crash.  It did
>flake out 2 years ago when I let the batteries run down though.

you mean you didn't just throw it away and buy a new one?

r

[9fans] DMR's OS :(

[jmk]

	>>My palm pilot has been up for 2 years without a crash.  It did
	>>flake out 2 years ago when I let the batteries run down though.

	>you mean you didn't just throw it away and buy a new one?

	>r

Please, enough! Don't give Dave ideas about throwing things.

[9fans] DMR's OS :(

[ralph]

>My palm pilot has been up for 2 years without a crash.  It did
>flake out 2 years ago when I let the batteries run down though.

you mean you didn't just throw it away and buy a new one?

r

[9fans] DMR's OS :(

[presotto]

My palm pilot has been up for 2 years without a crash.  It did
flake out 2 years ago when I let the batteries run down though.

[9fans] DMR's OS :(

[ralph]

>The only mystery is why Rob would have let someone load a clone
>of an ancient Bell Labs operating system on his PC in the

ancient?  I think 'venerable' would be a better choice of adjective... ;-)

r

[9fans] DMR's OS :(

[Douglas]

I suspect that, like me, Dennis uses the right tool for the job.
Plan 9 is wonderful, but it isn't supported by commercial apps.
There is no way that a small development team can provide all
the useful apps that one can obtain (free or cheaply) for the
Windows environment.  For example, I require Photoshop, S-Plus,
and Mathematica or some close equivalent, but there is (to my
knowledge) no close equivalent available on Plan 9.

Consequently, my own PC can be booted into Windows 95, NT,
Plan 9, or Solaris, all with C/C++ development environments,
and hosts Inferno and Java Workshop as well.  I get to choose
the most appropriate environment for whatever I need to do.

[9fans] DMR's OS :(

[Borja]

> 
> And that is my last word on the subject here; this is 9fans.

	Sorry, I didn't want to start a flame war, and I'm really
interested on Plan 9 (I bought a license myself!) :-)


	Borja.


-- 
***********************************************************************
Borja Marcos			* Internet: borjam@we.lc.ehu.es
Alangoeta, 11 1 izq		*	    borjamar@sarenet.es
48990 - Algorta (Vizcaya)	*           borjam@well.com
SPAIN				* CompuServe: 100015,3502
***********************************************************************

[9fans] DMR's OS :(

[Digby]

>
>But I should add that around here, we have also seen much Linux
>instability.  I suspect that, like most systems including ones I have built,
>Linux is stable until it gets used in a new way, usually by a new
>user.  Even so, the claims of Linux's perfection seem untenable
>given my experiences with it in several versions on a variety of
>hardware.
>
>And that is my last word on the subject here; this is 9fans.
>
I don't see anything surprising here. If you are coming from
Plan9, your expectations are high and Linux seems flakey.

If, like a majority of Linux users, you are a Windows refugee,
two commands in a row without a crash and you are ecstatic.

My impression is that the BSD derivatives are a little more
stable because they are more conservative. Linux has a somewhat
more adventurous, bohemian development philosophy, for which
there is a slight robustness penalty. Even so, I can believe
that many people use it for years without ever seeing a problem.

The only mystery is why Rob would have let someone load a clone
of an ancient Bell Labs operating system on his PC in the
first place :-)

Regards,
DigbyT
-- 
Digby R. S. Tarvin                                              digbyt@acm.org
http://www.cthulhu.dircon.co.uk

[9fans] DMR's OS :(

[rob]

Everyone seems to perceive some psychic effect or bad hardware.
It wasn't the hardware; we replaced that once to no avail and I could
crash others' machines that were otherwise stable just by using them
for a few minutes.

The anti-Midas touch, I guess.  I guarantee it wasn't psychic.

But I should add that around here, we have also seen much Linux
instability.  I suspect that, like most systems including ones I have built,
Linux is stable until it gets used in a new way, usually by a new
user.  Even so, the claims of Linux's perfection seem untenable
given my experiences with it in several versions on a variety of
hardware.

And that is my last word on the subject here; this is 9fans.

-rob

[9fans] DMR's OS :(

[forsyth]

>>This sounds most unusual. I hardly think Linux would have enjoyed such
>>popularity were it as prone to crashing as you suggest. I've been using

it was my impression that the most common operating system today
was indeed one of the least reliable.  it must be popular
with someone.  (i wasn't thinking of solaris,
though that's a close second in the unreliability stakes, in my
experience, even after applying Jumbo patches.)
perhaps o/s popularity increases with instability (much like politicians).
i can't comment about linux: i installed it several times (until i got one that worked)
but then found i had no reason ever to run it, so i turned the disc
into a paging file to get some work out of it.

anecdotal experience doesn't seem to me to settle the matter, and
i think this is all irrelevant in the context of the original message:
surely someone (even dmr) can run what he likes on a `personal' computer?

[9fans] DMR's OS :(

[Borja]

> 
> when i was on sabbatical the university installed linux on the PC on my desk.
> it crashed regularly, several times a week. the netscape on it crashed at least
> several times as often; i never enabled java on it.  everyone else in the department
> said that i was crazy; linux was very stable, etc. etc.  they changed hardware,
> it made no difference.  i sat down at their desks and crashed their machines,
> always by doing nothing more than running xterm and netscape to look at
> ordinary things.  a friend of mine sat at my desk, typed a single url to her own
> perfectly sane home page, and hung the machine completely.

> 	I think you had a hardware problem, or you were using
an experimental version. Some friends use Linux for work, as
HTTP server, DNS... and I have seen uptimes in excess of months. In
fact, those are their most stable machines. (The others have MS operating
systems).

	And my experience with FreeBSD (which I prefer to Linux) has also
been excellent. I have had no problems. I can recall it only crashed once,
when I was trying a "snapshot" of a development branch. 

	Regarding Linux, there are too many "distributions" and
it is too chaotic. But, anyway, it works.


	Borja.


-- 
***********************************************************************
Borja Marcos			* Internet: borjam@we.lc.ehu.es
Alangoeta, 11 1 izq		*	    borjamar@sarenet.es
48990 - Algorta (Vizcaya)	*           borjam@well.com
SPAIN				* CompuServe: 100015,3502
***********************************************************************

[9fans] DMR's OS :(

[Borja]

> 
> This sounds most unusual. I hardly think Linux would have enjoyed such
> popularity were it as prone to crashing as you suggest. I've been using
> linux for around 4 years, I don't think I've ever had it crash once,
> (although X has died a couple of times) I'm sure many others will vouch
> for its stability.

	I prefer FreeBSD. Both OSs are indeed very stable. If I
see an unstable Linux or FreeBSD box, you can suspect of the hardware.
(I'm sure you know that there are PCs that hardly work...)


	Borja.


-- 
***********************************************************************
Borja Marcos			* Internet: borjam@we.lc.ehu.es
Alangoeta, 11 1 izq		*	    borjamar@sarenet.es
48990 - Algorta (Vizcaya)	*           borjam@well.com
SPAIN				* CompuServe: 100015,3502
***********************************************************************

[9fans] DMR's OS :(

[Russell]

> 
> i came to learn what stable means: linux is perfectly stable between crashes.
> 

This sounds most unusual. I hardly think Linux would have enjoyed such
popularity were it as prone to crashing as you suggest. I've been using
linux for around 4 years, I don't think I've ever had it crash once,
(although X has died a couple of times) I'm sure many others will vouch
for its stability.

r.

[9fans] DMR's OS :(

[ralph]

>i came to learn what stable means: linux is perfectly stable between crashes.

all I can say is that my experience is exactly the opposite.  I have 3 pc's
(2 486DX2/66 and a 6x86) and they simply do not crash. (and I run much
more than just netscape and xterm.) the longest continuous uptime that
I recall was just over 70 days; they're in my living room so I do have
to power them down every once in a while when I vacuum...

current uptime stats are 1 day, 34 days and 25 days respectively.
(my 56K modem card seems to get into a bad state that can only be
cleared by a power cycle; hence the 1 day uptime for the first machine.
just got a new modem card to replace it, with a Lucent chip, I'm
sure it will work perfectly...)

perhaps you were exerting a psychotronic effect on these systems that
you were using? ie, your ill-will towards them caused them to crash...
;-)

r

[9fans] DMR's OS :(

[rob]

when i was on sabbatical the university installed linux on the PC on my desk.
it crashed regularly, several times a week. the netscape on it crashed at least
several times as often; i never enabled java on it.  everyone else in the department
said that i was crazy; linux was very stable, etc. etc.  they changed hardware,
it made no difference.  i sat down at their desks and crashed their machines,
always by doing nothing more than running xterm and netscape to look at
ordinary things.  a friend of mine sat at my desk, typed a single url to her own
perfectly sane home page, and hung the machine completely.

i came to learn what stable means: linux is perfectly stable between crashes.

[9fans] DMR's OS :(

[jmk]

	From: ralph muha <rmuha@minimal.com>
	...
	I run netscape under linux and linux has never crashed on
	me.  netscape only crashes when I have java enabled...

i first responded in this way when asked in a previous life why
the emacs mode wasn't working in the korn-shell:

	two wrongs don't make a right.

--jim

[9fans] DMR's OS :(

[ralph]

>I don't see what the fuss is about.  Would you rather he ran
>Netscape under Linux instead of Win95?  The browser and
>OS will crash just as often in either case.

I have to dispute that statement as strongly as possbile.
I run netscape under linux and linux has never crashed on
me.  netscape only crashes when I have java enabled...

r

[9fans] DMR's OS :(

[rob]

I don't see what the fuss is about.  Would you rather he ran
Netscape under Linux instead of Win95?  The browser and
OS will crash just as often in either case.

-rob

[9fans] DMR's OS :(

[Rob]

(Crossposted to non-dutch groups)

There was (is) a thread going on about someone violating DMR's
copyright. He posted an article in the thread himself, of which
I would like to present you the headers:

   From: Dennis Ritchie <dmr@bell-labs.com>
   Newsgroups: nl.comp.programmeren,nl.comp.os.linux,comp.lang.c
   Subject: Re: "The C programming Language" now online
   Date: Wed, 28 Oct 1998 02:04:36 +0000
   Organization: Bell Labs, Lucent Technologies
   Lines: 11
   Message-ID: <36367BB4.7B3A@bell-labs.com>
   References: <F1I7AA.9x@vulcan.xs4all.nl>
   Reply-To: dmr@bell-labs.com
   NNTP-Posting-Host: cebu.cs.bell-labs.com
   Mime-Version: 1.0
   Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
   Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
   X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; U)
                           ^^^^^

I have read about this happening before, but this time I witnessed
it myself. How it it possible that the very person who brought us
Unix and the C language, apparently doesn't believe enough in his
own design to use it as a client OS and uses this sorry excuse of
an OS instead? I think he really underestimates the example he is
setting with this. :(
He is still one of my heroes, but I am not very pleased right now.
I do consider this post advocacy, so I didn't cc DMR himself. But
it would be nice if he would join the forum and reply on this.

HAND,
-- 
Rob S. Wolfram 
ejbysenz@jv.yrvqrahavi.ay     efj@zpf.ay      e.f.jbysenz@nzp.hin.ay
PGP:  768/07606049  31 09 D2 D7 57 B4 F4 FC  CA FC 1F 34 8C BA C8 56
Use ROT-13 to get a valid e-mail address. No UCE please.