[9fans] (sorry - more..)Re: Plan9 should be free distributable

[9fans] (sorry - more..)Re: Plan9 should be free distributable

[Digby]

> >
> > None of these are Windows or NT clones. They are eather failed DOS
> > clones or subsystems which attempt to allow Windows API applications to
> > run on another operating system.
>
> There are clones as well as direct competitors.
>
> The point is, the field is not as barren as you paint.
>
I said the market was not flooded with clones, and I stand by that.

When was the last time you bought a PC and were offered a choice
of "Windows compatible" operating systems?

I am not aware of a single clone claiming to be able to run all
Windows applications, and if one does exist, it is having so little
impact as to be cirtually unknown.

> > I certainly would not count Linux as a Windows clone, Wine or not...
>
> Wine allows Windows programs to be executed, in most peoples minds that is
> close enough.

If most people thought that way, most PC vendors would be saving
money by dumping Windows and supplying the free software.

The fact that most people still run Microsoft operating systems
suggests that they do not consider Linux+Wine to be equivalent.

> > And the reason there are no clones is that Microsoft don't
> > release their source, keep the interfaces a moving target, and
> > have an army of lawyers ready to pounce on anyone that puts a foot
> > wrong.
>
> Clones don't require source access and considering the current attitude it
> would be wise to employ clean room development from the beginning. Provide
> nothing but the documentation of the basic API's as a starting point.
>
> They also don't publish all their API's in totality.
>
> However, none of this has kept people from trying.

A sucessful clone requires either a very well specified API or
access to source. And yes, the coders need to work in a clean
room environment, but if the API is not extensively documented and
rigidly adhered to, a second team with the source need to be
available to answer questions of function without giving details of
coding.

So far, the lack of both source and stable fully documented API
has thwarted all attempts to clone Windows.

The only sucessful way to run all Windows applications under Linux,
as far as I know, is using the virtual machine environment. And that
requires a Windows license.

> > Threats to 'give it away or we will steal it' are the sort of thing
> > that can convince management to follow a similar closed strategy,
> > and put a stop to cheap source and free downloads.
>
> You're the ONLY party suggestion anything be stolen.
>

I quote from the original posting to this thread:

"I have been interested in plan9 for a long time. Maybe if the
 plan9 iso had been released illegally by the software piracy
 community, it might have gained a bigger userbase. I have been
 asking everyone for a copy because I couldn't afford one at the
 time and noone complied to my request."

> In general your reaction is a tad, how shall I say, apologetic.

Defending Lucent, and historically, Bell Labs, was my intention.
I am greatful to both for being responsible for most of the
software that makes this industry not just tolerable, but
actually enjoyable.

It saddens me that not ony do the purveyors of rubbish make
all of the profits, but they don't even get the credit
they deserve.

Every man and his dog knows of Bill Gates, and in the mind of
the general public he is a programming genius (did he ever write anything
other than Microsoft Basic?). Whereas what percentage of the
general public know of legends like Brian Kernighan,
Ken Thompson and Dennis Ritchie.?? (At least everyone on this
list I would hope!)

> I'd certainly be interested in a Open Source clone of Plan 9 to point of
> spending my own time and money to that end. The less that goes to ATT (for
> their non-action/support) the better.

With all due respect, I don't think your time and money would
adequately compensate for the loss of the team at Lucent.

If you think you are their equal, why not do something original?
You would then practice what you preach and give it away.

Regards,
DigbyT
--
Digby R. S. Tarvin                                              digbyt@acm.org
http://www.cthulhu.dircon.co.uk

[9fans] (sorry - more..)Re: Plan9 should be free distributable

[Digby]

> >
> > None of these are Windows or NT clones. They are eather failed DOS
> > clones or subsystems which attempt to allow Windows API applications to
> > run on another operating system.
>
> There are clones as well as direct competitors.
>
> The point is, the field is not as barren as you paint.
>
I said the market was not flooded with clones, and I stand by that.

When was the last time you bought a PC and were offered a choice
of "Windows compatible" operating systems?

I am not aware of a single clone claiming to be able to run all
Windows applications, and if one does exist, it is having so little
impact as to be cirtually unknown.

> > I certainly would not count Linux as a Windows clone, Wine or not...
>
> Wine allows Windows programs to be executed, in most peoples minds that is
> close enough.

If most people thought that way, most PC vendors would be saving
money by dumping Windows and supplying the free software.

The fact that most people still run Microsoft operating systems
suggests that they do not consider Linux+Wine to be equivalent.

> > And the reason there are no clones is that Microsoft don't
> > release their source, keep the interfaces a moving target, and
> > have an army of lawyers ready to pounce on anyone that puts a foot
> > wrong.
>
> Clones don't require source access and considering the current attitude it
> would be wise to employ clean room development from the beginning. Provide
> nothing but the documentation of the basic API's as a starting point.
>
> They also don't publish all their API's in totality.
>
> However, none of this has kept people from trying.

A sucessful clone requires either a very well specified API or
access to source. And yes, the coders need to work in a clean
room environment, but if the API is not extensively documented and
rigidly adhered to, a second team with the source need to be
available to answer questions of function without giving details of
coding.

So far, the lack of both source and stable fully documented API
has thwarted all attempts to clone Windows.

The only sucessful way to run all Windows applications under Linux,
as far as I know, is using the virtual machine environment. And that
requires a Windows license.

> > Threats to 'give it away or we will steal it' are the sort of thing
> > that can convince management to follow a similar closed strategy,
> > and put a stop to cheap source and free downloads.
>
> You're the ONLY party suggestion anything be stolen.
>

I quote from the original posting to this thread:

"I have been interested in plan9 for a long time. Maybe if the
 plan9 iso had been released illegally by the software piracy
 community, it might have gained a bigger userbase. I have been
 asking everyone for a copy because I couldn't afford one at the
 time and noone complied to my request."

> In general your reaction is a tad, how shall I say, apologetic.

Defending Lucent, and historically, Bell Labs, was my intention.
I am greatful to both for being responsible for most of the
software that makes this industry not just tolerable, but
actually enjoyable.

It saddens me that not ony do the purveyors of rubbish make
all of the profits, but they don't even get the credit
they deserve.

Every man and his dog knows of Bill Gates, and in the mind of
the general public he is a programming genius (did he ever write anything
other than Microsoft Basic?). Whereas what percentage of the
general public know of legends like Brian Kernighan,
Ken Thompson and Dennis Ritchie.?? (At least everyone on this
list I would hope!)

> I'd certainly be interested in a Open Source clone of Plan 9 to point of
> spending my own time and money to that end. The less that goes to ATT (for
> their non-action/support) the better.

With all due respect, I don't think your time and money would
adequately compensate for the loss of the team at Lucent.

If you think you are their equal, why not do something original?
You would then practice what you preach and give it away.

Regards,
DigbyT
--
Digby R. S. Tarvin                                              digbyt@acm.org
http://www.cthulhu.dircon.co.uk