Re: [9fans] Plan 9 Binaries and Source for Free

Re: [9fans] Plan 9 Binaries and Source for Free

[b s]

rob@plan9.bell-labs.com (rob pike) writes:

Heartfelt congratulations to the Plan-9 team for getting
this out, just the way the world wanted (open source).
We all hope for a new computing revolution!

%The list of contributors is a lot longer than that.  Look under
%the "Preface" links on the "http://plan9.bell-labs.com/sys/man".
%
%-rob

Re: [9fans] Plan 9 Binaries and Source for Free

[Greg Hudson]

> Heartfelt congratulations to the Plan-9 team for getting this out,
> just the way the world wanted (open source).

The world which wants open source can be a bunch of ungrateful
bastards, and in this case I'm one of them.  There are two things I,
and I suspect others, consider unacceptable about the new Plan 9
license:

	* Lucent has the right to come in and demand full
	  non-exclusive rights to any derivatives of Plan 9 which you
	  make and use--even if you don't distribute them.

	* You can't sue any contributor to the version of Plan 9 you
	  use, for any intellectual property reason whatsoever,
	  without destroying your copies of that version of Plan 9.
	  (I don't know how enforceable this clause is.)

Maybe some people think these things are okay, but from my point of
view, this is on the level of the APSL: technically open source, but
with a few poisonous clauses which will probably prevent it from
generating real interest.  And it's certainly not compatible with the
GPL.

These aren't issues of personal gain, incidentally.  I don't think I
would ever write a derivative of a work of free software and
intentionally keep it to myself, and I don't think I would ever sue
someone for intellectual property reasons.  But I think truly free
software shouldn't require people to give up these rights.

My apologies for raining on the parade.  And my deep apologizes if I
have misread the license and spread misinformation as a result.

Re: [9fans] Plan 9 Binaries and Source for Free

[Pat Gunn]

> The world which wants open source can be a bunch of ungrateful
> bastards, and in this case I'm one of them.  There are two things I,
> and I suspect others, consider unacceptable about the new Plan 9
> license:
>
>         * Lucent has the right to come in and demand full
>           non-exclusive rights to any derivatives of Plan 9 which you
>           make and use--even if you don't distribute them.
>
>         * You can't sue any contributor to the version of Plan 9 you
>           use, for any intellectual property reason whatsoever,
>           without destroying your copies of that version of Plan 9.
>           (I don't know how enforceable this clause is.)
>
> Maybe some people think these things are okay, but from my point of
> view, this is on the level of the APSL: technically open source, but
> with a few poisonous clauses which will probably prevent it from
> generating real interest.  And it's certainly not compatible with the
> GPL.
>
> These aren't issues of personal gain, incidentally.  I don't think I
> would ever write a derivative of a work of free software and
> intentionally keep it to myself, and I don't think I would ever sue
> someone for intellectual property reasons.  But I think truly free
> software shouldn't require people to give up these rights.

Personally, I don't see it as any more restrictive than the GPL, and
for a licence, those points are generally positive -- like the GPL it
helps to create a small part of the ideal world in which we'd have
no intellectual property protections at all, and that's a good thing.

--
"Religion is a crutch, and only the crippled need crutches" -- Madalyn Murray
Any opinions expressed in this message do not necessarily reflect
the official position of Pat Gunn or his employer. Instead, they
reflect the official position of the reader(s).

Re: [9fans] Plan 9 Binaries and Source for Free

[Tom E Arnold]

rob pike wrote:
>
> While we're thanking and congratulating, I'd like to
> mention some people.  The number of people who
> contributed to the system is too long that I'm certain
> to leave someone out if I try to create a complete
> list.  But I want to point out that the software to
> package, distribute, download and boot the system
> was done by Russ Cox, Dave Presotto, and Jim McKie.
> The smoothness of the process is a testament to
> their abilities.
>
It is evident that they didn't end this contribution at the moment of
release. Continued attention, at least from Dave Presotto, was key to my
successfull download.
Again, thanks.

--
TTom/
 My current neighborhood:
http://www.coldspringpark.org
 My next neighborhood:
http://www.geocities.com/athens/acropolis/9361

Re: [9fans] Plan 9 Binaries and Source for Free

[rob pike]

This is not the forum for a detailed legal exegesis, but Mr. Hudson's
thoughtful comments deserve a response.

Legal terminology is not the best medium for subtlety, so
I've asked our lawyers for clarification.  The intent of this clause:

	You agree to provide the Original Contributor, at its request, with a
	copy of the complete Source Code version, Object Code version and
	related documentation for Modifications created or contributed to by
	You if used for any purpose.

is very simple: we've given you something for free, and if you turn around
and make products from it, we should have permission to see what you've
done.  Share and share alike.  The idea is primarily to prevent people from
making stuff from Plan 9 and then making it available to others but excluding
us.  It's certainly not to grab your secret stuff; quite the opposite: it's to make
sure we get equal access to your public stuff, in the spirit of the original
Plan 9 distribution.

The 'legal action' clause for similar reasons perhaps reads more nastily
than its intent.  It could probably be clearer, but its intent is simple: to
protect you from suing people about Plan 9 when they've given it to you
for free in the first place.

	> And my deep apologizes if I
	> have misread the license and spread misinformation as a result.

'Misread' is too strong, but I do believe you're reading too hard.
The idea was and is an honest open source agreement, and I think the
license is a workable one for everyone.

Speaking for the Bell Labs people, I can say we're very happy to have
our stuff out for people to play with.

-rob

Re: [9fans] Plan 9 Binaries and Source for Free

[presotto]

Hudson brings up a good point.  You should read the license before
you agree to it.  Our intent is to get back improvements to the code,
put them in the code base,  and to keep the code base plus
modifications freely available.  That may or may not match the
wording in the license but its what we're going to do.

Products like new device drivers, programs, file systems, etc. that
just call the kernel and library functions and don't include Lucent
code, are not modifications.  They're just additions that noone has
to share if they don't want to.  However, fixing current stuff,
reworking chan.c, etc. are modifications and we'ld like them back
to include in the code base.

As for the clause on losing rights if you sue another contributor,
that seemed a little spacey to me too.  I'ld like to get a
clarification from the lawyers on how broad 'any' is defined to
be in (ii) below:

	The licenses and rights granted under this Agreement shall terminate
	automatically if
 	(i) You fail to comply with all of the terms and conditions herein; or
	(ii) You initiate or participate in any intellectual property action
	   against Original Contributor and/or another Contributor.

We'ld be happy to hear about other problems people have with the
license.  I don't expect that it'll change the license any but
perhaps we can get clarification from the lawyers.  At the
very least you shouldn't be buying a pig in a polk.

[9fans] Plan 9 Binaries and Source for Free

[Christian]

I know, but that was originally a message for my friends.  I just sent
another copy to the news group.

rob pike wrote:
>
> The list of contributors is a lot longer than that.  Look under
> the "Preface" links on the "http://plan9.bell-labs.com/sys/man".
>
> -rob

--
I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it!

[9fans] Plan 9 Binaries and Source for Free

[rob]

Thanks.

There are other commercial licensees but I think they all use the
system to provide network services rather than packaged products.
Inferno gets used in a bunch of stuff including some flagship
Lucent switch products.

-rob

[9fans] Plan 9 Binaries and Source for Free

[Ian]

Rob

Congratulations.  This is great news !

As you know nCUBE has been using PLAN 9 in its massively scaleable video
servers for 6 years.

Is nCUBE the only company out there with a true commercial application of
PLAN 9 ?

Just curious ...

Ian

>To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu
>Subject: Re: [9fans] Plan 9 Binaries and Source for Free
>From: "rob pike" <rob@plan9.bell-labs.com>
>Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2000 09:33:37 -0400
>Sender: owner-9fans@cse.psu.edu
>Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu
>
>The list of contributors is a lot longer than that.  Look under
>the "Preface" links on the "http://plan9.bell-labs.com/sys/man".
>
>-rob

[9fans] Plan 9 Binaries and Source for Free

[rob]

While we're thanking and congratulating, I'd like to
mention some people.  The number of people who
contributed to the system is too long that I'm certain
to leave someone out if I try to create a complete
list.  But I want to point out that the software to
package, distribute, download and boot the system
was done by Russ Cox, Dave Presotto, and Jim McKie.
The smoothness of the process is a testament to
their abilities.

-rob

[9fans] Plan 9 Binaries and Source for Free

[rob]

The list of contributors is a lot longer than that.  Look under
the "Preface" links on the "http://plan9.bell-labs.com/sys/man".

-rob

[9fans] Plan 9 Binaries and Source for Free

[Christian]

Bell Labs has released the source code for their Plan 9 operating system
for free download over the internet.  The development team for Plan 9
includes wizard hackers such as Dennis Ritchie, responsible for the C
programming language and some of UNIX, and Rob Pike, "The UNIX
Programming Environment" was co-authored by him and he is the project
leader.  The Slashdot post is available at
http://slashdot.org/articles/00/06/07/2259250.shtml , and the Bell Labs
pages are http://plan9.bell-labs.com/plan9dist/ and an article is
available at http://www.bell-labs.com/news/2000/june/7/2.html .
Christian
--
I practice cook and release fishing.