Re: [9fans] The Cathedral and the Bazaar

Re: [9fans] The Cathedral and the Bazaar

[forsyth]

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i thought we were an autonomous collective!


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From: dmr@plan9.bell-labs.com
To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu
Subject: Re:  [9fans] The Cathedral and the Bazaar
Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2001 15:33:37 -0500
Message-ID: <20010309203343.AACCB199C0@mail.cse.psu.edu>

 > ... the capital raised to build the York Minster and 40 some other
 > churches in old York was extorted from wealthy landowners and the
 > peasants (pay or go to hell).  I think this better fits the model

So, in present-day York is VN playing the role of the Church,
the wealth landowners, or the peasants?

	Dennis

Re: [9fans] The Cathedral and the Bazaar

[Toby Thain]

forsyth@caldo.demon.co.uk wrote:
> 
> i thought we were an autonomous collective!

You're fooling yourself. We're living in a dictatorship.

Toby

"I'm 37. Not old." -- The other Dennis

> 
>   ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> Subject: Re: [9fans] The Cathedral and the Bazaar
> Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2001 15:33:37 -0500
> From: dmr@plan9.bell-labs.com
> Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu
> To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu
> 
>  > ... the capital raised to build the York Minster and 40 some other
>  > churches in old York was extorted from wealthy landowners and the
>  > peasants (pay or go to hell).  I think this better fits the model
> 
> So, in present-day York is VN playing the role of the Church,
> the wealth landowners, or the peasants?
> 
>         Dennis

Re: [9fans] The Cathedral and the Bazaar

[dmr]

 > ... the capital raised to build the York Minster and 40 some other
 > churches in old York was extorted from wealthy landowners and the
 > peasants (pay or go to hell).  I think this better fits the model

So, in present-day York is VN playing the role of the Church,
the wealth landowners, or the peasants?

	Dennis

Re: [9fans] The Cathedral and the Bazaar

[James Carter]

On  8 Mar, Ed Wishart wrote:
>  A tour of the lovely
> town of York England 

city, please. :-)

-- 
 J.F.Carter                       http://www.jfc.org.uk/

Re: [9fans] The Cathedral and the Bazaar

[okamoto]

Thanks Laura,
I checked
>Eric Raymond (http://www.tuxedo.org/~esr) wrote an article.  It became a
this document, and had a question why Allan Cox says nothing about this
kind of topics...  I may be rude to use another person's name, however, he 
seems to be famous enough in this world.   I've heard Linus says something
about Linux though.

Eric says anything new?   He says how to organize peoples in a more efficient
way, or something, at least I've read his document so.

Kenji
-----I'll come back here after March 21th, sorry---

Re: [9fans] The Cathedral and the Bazaar

[Ed Wishart]

Laura Creighton paints a picture of enthusiastic
workers building cathedrals, failing and learning from their
mistakes, as a model of open software.  A tour of the lovely
town of York England 3 years back pointed out that
the capital raised to build the York Minster and 40 some other
churches in old York was extorted from wealthy landowners and the
peasants (pay or go to hell).  I think this better fits the model
of large corporations putting pressure on managers to get products
to market, or lose your job or not advance up the corporate ladder.
Certainly this was a top down endeavor, not bottom up as is plan9
and Linux.

Ed Wishart

RE: [9fans] The Cathedral and the Bazaar

[Jason Gurtz]

<snip>
> 
> Eventually we get a whole lot of nice cathedrals, some of which have been
> made of rocks that have been part of a half dozen or more failed 
> cathedrals.
> We call the ones that are left over really cool and do not even 
> think about
> the failures.
> 
> This, I submit, is *exactly* the way the open source community operates. 

Nice; I like those statments.  They are refreshing.

~jason

-- 
+-------------------------+
| Jason(at)tommyk(dot)com |
+-------------------------+

[9fans] The Cathedral and the Bazaar

[Laura Creighton]

Eric Raymond (http://www.tuxedo.org/~esr) wrote an article.  It became a
book.  You can read about it at his web site if you want.  You can even
read the whole article if you want, but I will summarise here in case
you don't want to.  It is very very very famous and influential
in the open source community; many people, I think most people would say that
it is the foundation document of the open source software movement.  In
this document Eric Raymond compares writing software to how he believes
Europeans made Cathedrals, and how Bazaars operate.  Cathedrals are made
by a small group of people with a plan.  They have the vision and they
control everything.  If you like what they do, fine, if you hate it, you
are stuck.  Bazaars are different.  There you get everything offered for
sale. Some is good, some is  not so good, but the important thing is that
it is there.  You can buy anything, take home and modify it if isn't too
your liking.  Lots and lots of people will do this, which is a very good
thing.  The more people you have working on a problem the better.
Catherdral makers are elitist.  Elitism is bad.  Linux is cool because
it is made with the Bazaar and not by Elitist Cathedral makers.

What is astonishing is that European cathedrals were not made this way
at all.  What happened was quite often only done by the vaguest of plans.
What really happened is this:

Somebody went to some place that was building a catherdral and went
home saying, ``Wow, this is *very* cool, I want to make one as well.''
People who mostly had only one occupation in those days, farmer, got to work
weekends on making a cathedral.  Lots of them thought that cathedral
building was much more fun than farming.  The Church people said that working
on cathedrals was Holy and Good for you.  Since the mathematics of
architecture was just getting worked out, a lot of buildings fell over
in the middle of construction.  Some people got rich going from town
to town advising people on how to make buildings that do not fall down.
Some of the advice consisted of which prayers to say on which days of the
year.  If you took their advice, and your building fell down, you could
start over, or sell the rubble to the people in the next town who needed
the pieces for, guess what, their cathedral.  

Eventually we get a whole lot of nice cathedrals, some of which have been
made of rocks that have been part of a half dozen or more failed cathedrals.
We call the ones that are left over really cool and do not even think about
the failures.

This, I submit, is *exactly* the way the open source community operates. 

Laura Creighton