* [9fans] I suppose if there's no other way to do it (a quote from the tcl web site) @ 2006-08-10 14:13 Ronald G Minnich 2006-08-11 0:26 ` LiteStar numnums 2006-08-11 7:21 ` David Leimbach 0 siblings, 2 replies; 17+ messages in thread From: Ronald G Minnich @ 2006-08-10 14:13 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs "Sure, some other languages have libraries for accessing web or ftp sites, or looking inside zip files. But how many provide an open ended and extensible system that allows you to access any such resource using the same I/O commands you'd use with regular disk files?" hmm. in the language library? Well, I guess if that's all you can do ... but this is a really odd quote. And I actually like tcl ... ron ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 17+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] I suppose if there's no other way to do it (a quote from the tcl web site) 2006-08-10 14:13 [9fans] I suppose if there's no other way to do it (a quote from the tcl web site) Ronald G Minnich @ 2006-08-11 0:26 ` LiteStar numnums 2006-08-11 7:21 ` David Leimbach 1 sibling, 0 replies; 17+ messages in thread From: LiteStar numnums @ 2006-08-11 0:26 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1120 bytes --] What's so odd about it? The same comment applies to Plan9 & 9p: "Sure, some other operating systems have programs for accessing web or ftp sites, or looking inside zip files. But how many provide an open ended and extensible system that allows you to access any such resource using the same I/O commands you'd use with regular disk files?" On 8/10/06, Ronald G Minnich <rminnich@lanl.gov> wrote: > > "Sure, some other languages have libraries for accessing web or ftp > sites, or looking inside zip files. But how many provide an open ended > and extensible system that allows you to access any such resource using > the same I/O commands you'd use with regular disk files?" > > hmm. in the language library? Well, I guess if that's all you can do ... > but this is a really odd quote. > > And I actually like tcl ... > > ron > -- Lead thou me on, O Zeus, and Destiny, To that goal long ago to me assigned. I'll follow and not falter; if my will Prove weak and craven, still I'll follow on. -- Epictetus He who enters his wife's dressing room is a philosopher or a fool. -- Balzac [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 1459 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 17+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] I suppose if there's no other way to do it (a quote from the tcl web site) 2006-08-10 14:13 [9fans] I suppose if there's no other way to do it (a quote from the tcl web site) Ronald G Minnich 2006-08-11 0:26 ` LiteStar numnums @ 2006-08-11 7:21 ` David Leimbach 2006-08-11 11:45 ` erik quanstrom 1 sibling, 1 reply; 17+ messages in thread From: David Leimbach @ 2006-08-11 7:21 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs On 8/10/06, Ronald G Minnich <rminnich@lanl.gov> wrote: > "Sure, some other languages have libraries for accessing web or ftp > sites, or looking inside zip files. But how many provide an open ended > and extensible system that allows you to access any such resource using > the same I/O commands you'd use with regular disk files?" > C++ iostreams perhaps? I've got one for sockets, pipes etc... Now that's not the same as FTP sites and zip files, but it could be done. Then you can use the same iterators and algorithms to glue it all together. In fact, I think I saw a zlibstream once. I was thinking of writing one. It's done via a blend of template generic programming and OOP. Too bad C++ quickly becomes quite confusing and is very easy to abuse and make difficult to maintain (probably an understatement). Plan 9 gives me a lot of that power right at the shell because the OS multiplexes 9P so well. > hmm. in the language library? Well, I guess if that's all you can do ... > but this is a really odd quote. > > And I actually like tcl ... > > ron > ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 17+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] I suppose if there's no other way to do it (a quote from the tcl web site) 2006-08-11 7:21 ` David Leimbach @ 2006-08-11 11:45 ` erik quanstrom 2006-08-11 14:10 ` David Leimbach 2006-08-11 14:16 ` Ronald G Minnich 0 siblings, 2 replies; 17+ messages in thread From: erik quanstrom @ 2006-08-11 11:45 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans *not* providing a library for these things is the key. for example, page doesn't link against the jpeg library. it just runs jpg. nedmail doesn't link against the mime library, it uses upas/fs and marshal. if plan 9 provided fancy library interfaces for such things, we might be temted by the sirens "shared libraries" and "oop languages". - erik On Fri Aug 11 02:22:13 CDT 2006, leimy2k@gmail.com wrote: > On 8/10/06, Ronald G Minnich <rminnich@lanl.gov> wrote: > > "Sure, some other languages have libraries for accessing web or ftp > > sites, or looking inside zip files. But how many provide an open ended > > and extensible system that allows you to access any such resource using > > the same I/O commands you'd use with regular disk files?" > > > > C++ iostreams perhaps? I've got one for sockets, pipes etc... Now > that's not the same as FTP sites and zip files, but it could be done. > Then you can use the same iterators and algorithms to glue it all > together. In fact, I think I saw a zlibstream once. I was thinking > of writing one. > > It's done via a blend of template generic programming and OOP. Too > bad C++ quickly becomes quite confusing and is very easy to abuse and > make difficult to maintain (probably an understatement). > > Plan 9 gives me a lot of that power right at the shell because the OS > multiplexes 9P so well. > > > > hmm. in the language library? Well, I guess if that's all you can do ... > > but this is a really odd quote. > > > > And I actually like tcl ... > > > > ron ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 17+ messages in thread
* Re: Re: [9fans] I suppose if there's no other way to do it (a quote from the tcl web site) 2006-08-11 11:45 ` erik quanstrom @ 2006-08-11 14:10 ` David Leimbach 2006-08-11 15:18 ` erik quanstrom 2006-08-11 14:16 ` Ronald G Minnich 1 sibling, 1 reply; 17+ messages in thread From: David Leimbach @ 2006-08-11 14:10 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs On 8/11/06, erik quanstrom <quanstro@quanstro.net> wrote: > *not* providing a library for these things is the key. > for example, page doesn't link against the jpeg library. > it just runs jpg. nedmail doesn't link against the mime > library, it uses upas/fs and marshal. I guess my point is it's just one abstraction that needs to be filled in to get the same expressive behavior as you get by making a 9P capable server for connecting to a given resource. Then you get the "same I/O commands you'd use..." as the quoted paragraph states. If they're saying TCL is somehow deeper than OOP, I didn't absorb that information from the copied paragraph. OOP systems are very open-ended, they're just terribly "close topped" (which is how we end up with things like Aspect Oriented Programming so you can cross-cut functionality into an existing system rather than just extending and overriding.) > > if plan 9 provided fancy library interfaces for such things, > we might be temted by the sirens "shared libraries" and "oop > languages". > Right but I'm not sure what that had to do with TCL? ;-). In some ways having a binary you can call from another process *is* a kind of "shared library" already. Just as the kernel is a shared library of sorts.... but yeah I understand your point. Plan 9's abstractions for doing these things in the OS itself are (for the lack of a better word at this early hour for me) "freakin' badass!". As a result I can far more with a shell, which is a safer programming environment in terms of resource management I think, than I can in pretty much any other programming language. If people thought Unix is a good programming environment, they really should give Plan 9 a try. > - erik > > On Fri Aug 11 02:22:13 CDT 2006, leimy2k@gmail.com wrote: > > On 8/10/06, Ronald G Minnich <rminnich@lanl.gov> wrote: > > > "Sure, some other languages have libraries for accessing web or ftp > > > sites, or looking inside zip files. But how many provide an open ended > > > and extensible system that allows you to access any such resource using > > > the same I/O commands you'd use with regular disk files?" > > > > > > > C++ iostreams perhaps? I've got one for sockets, pipes etc... Now > > that's not the same as FTP sites and zip files, but it could be done. > > Then you can use the same iterators and algorithms to glue it all > > together. In fact, I think I saw a zlibstream once. I was thinking > > of writing one. > > > > It's done via a blend of template generic programming and OOP. Too > > bad C++ quickly becomes quite confusing and is very easy to abuse and > > make difficult to maintain (probably an understatement). > > > > Plan 9 gives me a lot of that power right at the shell because the OS > > multiplexes 9P so well. > > > > > > > hmm. in the language library? Well, I guess if that's all you can do ... > > > but this is a really odd quote. > > > > > > And I actually like tcl ... > > > > > > ron > ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 17+ messages in thread
* Re: Re: [9fans] I suppose if there's no other way to do it (a quote from the tcl web site) 2006-08-11 14:10 ` David Leimbach @ 2006-08-11 15:18 ` erik quanstrom 0 siblings, 0 replies; 17+ messages in thread From: erik quanstrom @ 2006-08-11 15:18 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans right. but to make external processes work instead of using the typical shared-library-o-rama, you need to have decided what the system format is. in plan 9, *the* storage character set is utf-8 and Runes are used within programs; *the* image format is Image. in the gnu world, there is no base format, so using external programs to do this kind of stuff is much more difficult. plan 9 really is a great piece of work. - erik On Fri Aug 11 09:11:15 CDT 2006, leimy2k@gmail.com wrote: > > > > if plan 9 provided fancy library interfaces for such things, > > we might be temted by the sirens "shared libraries" and "oop > > languages". > > > > Right but I'm not sure what that had to do with TCL? ;-). In some > ways having a binary you can call from another process *is* a kind of > "shared library" already. Just as the kernel is a shared library of > sorts.... but yeah I understand your point. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 17+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] I suppose if there's no other way to do it (a quote from the tcl web site) 2006-08-11 11:45 ` erik quanstrom 2006-08-11 14:10 ` David Leimbach @ 2006-08-11 14:16 ` Ronald G Minnich 2006-08-11 17:18 ` erik quanstrom 1 sibling, 1 reply; 17+ messages in thread From: Ronald G Minnich @ 2006-08-11 14:16 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs btw, there is some sort of "spotlight"-like thing now for linux that I stumbled across. It runs on all kinds of things, except reiser or something, as "reiser is not supported". Goodness. Is it just parsing the on-disk file systems? ron ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 17+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] I suppose if there's no other way to do it (a quote from the tcl web site) 2006-08-11 14:16 ` Ronald G Minnich @ 2006-08-11 17:18 ` erik quanstrom 2006-08-12 6:19 ` Martin C. Atkins 0 siblings, 1 reply; 17+ messages in thread From: erik quanstrom @ 2006-08-11 17:18 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans care to share the name of this project? ;-) btw, is there a way for a program to cooperate with a venti archive and/or a fossil or fs to implement full-text search or something like slocate? - erik On Fri Aug 11 09:21:40 CDT 2006, rminnich@lanl.gov wrote: > btw, there is some sort of "spotlight"-like thing now for linux that I > stumbled across. > > It runs on all kinds of things, except reiser or something, as "reiser > is not supported". > > Goodness. Is it just parsing the on-disk file systems? > > ron ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 17+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] I suppose if there's no other way to do it (a quote from the tcl web site) 2006-08-11 17:18 ` erik quanstrom @ 2006-08-12 6:19 ` Martin C. Atkins 2006-08-12 10:56 ` ems 0 siblings, 1 reply; 17+ messages in thread From: Martin C. Atkins @ 2006-08-12 6:19 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs On Fri, 11 Aug 2006 12:18:07 -0500 erik quanstrom <quanstro@quanstro.net> wrote: > care to share the name of this project? ;-) He probably means Beagle. http://beagle-project.org/Main_Page > On Fri Aug 11 09:21:40 CDT 2006, rminnich@lanl.gov wrote: > > btw, there is some sort of "spotlight"-like thing now for linux that I > > stumbled across. Actually, it pre-dates spotlight. [BTW: The live update of search results is very impressive, I've not seen spotlight in action: does it do this too?] Martin -- Martin C. Atkins martin_ml@parvat.com Parvat Infotech Private Limited http://www.parvat.com{/,/martin} ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 17+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] I suppose if there's no other way to do it (a quote from the tcl web site) 2006-08-12 6:19 ` Martin C. Atkins @ 2006-08-12 10:56 ` ems 2006-08-12 15:50 ` David Leimbach 0 siblings, 1 reply; 17+ messages in thread From: ems @ 2006-08-12 10:56 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs On Sat, 2006-08-12 at 07:19 +0100, Martin C. Atkins wrote: > Actually, it pre-dates spotlight. Lies. Patent 6,847,959 was filed on January 5, 2000. [0] http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO1&Sect2=HITOFF&d=PALL&p=1&u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsrchnum.htm&r=1&f=G&l=50&s1=6,847,959.PN.&OS=PN/6,847,959&RS=PN/6,847,959 ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 17+ messages in thread
* Re: Re: [9fans] I suppose if there's no other way to do it (a quote from the tcl web site) 2006-08-12 10:56 ` ems @ 2006-08-12 15:50 ` David Leimbach 2006-08-12 16:43 ` ems 0 siblings, 1 reply; 17+ messages in thread From: David Leimbach @ 2006-08-12 15:50 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs On 8/12/06, ems <oat@iinet.net.au> wrote: > On Sat, 2006-08-12 at 07:19 +0100, Martin C. Atkins wrote: > > Actually, it pre-dates spotlight. > Lies. Patent 6,847,959 was filed on January 5, 2000. > > [0] > http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO1&Sect2=HITOFF&d=PALL&p=1&u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsrchnum.htm&r=1&f=G&l=50&s1=6,847,959.PN.&OS=PN/6,847,959&RS=PN/6,847,959 > The Beagle implementation still pre-dated spotlight by quite a bit actually IIRC. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 17+ messages in thread
* Re: Re: [9fans] I suppose if there's no other way to do it (a quote from the tcl web site) 2006-08-12 15:50 ` David Leimbach @ 2006-08-12 16:43 ` ems 2006-08-12 21:15 ` Paweł Lasek 0 siblings, 1 reply; 17+ messages in thread From: ems @ 2006-08-12 16:43 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs On Sat, 2006-08-12 at 08:50 -0700, David Leimbach wrote: > On 8/12/06, ems <oat@iinet.net.au> wrote: > > On Sat, 2006-08-12 at 07:19 +0100, Martin C. Atkins wrote: > > > Actually, it pre-dates spotlight. > > Lies. Patent 6,847,959 was filed on January 5, 2000. > > > > [0] > > http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO1&Sect2=HITOFF&d=PALL&p=1&u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsrchnum.htm&r=1&f=G&l=50&s1=6,847,959.PN.&OS=PN/6,847,959&RS=PN/6,847,959 > > > > The Beagle implementation still pre-dated spotlight by quite a bit > actually IIRC. Lies. No more than Slashdot/Open Source propaganda. Jon beat Apple by 6 hours to presenting it to the public. Apple had a fully working product by the presitation. Jon Trowbridge only had a preview of his work. Google Desktop was announced soon after. Thats trends for you.... ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 17+ messages in thread
* Re: Re: [9fans] I suppose if there's no other way to do it (a quote from the tcl web site) 2006-08-12 16:43 ` ems @ 2006-08-12 21:15 ` Paweł Lasek 2006-08-12 21:55 ` Russ Cox 0 siblings, 1 reply; 17+ messages in thread From: Paweł Lasek @ 2006-08-12 21:15 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs On 8/12/06, ems <oat@iinet.net.au> wrote: > On Sat, 2006-08-12 at 08:50 -0700, David Leimbach wrote: > Lies. No more than Slashdot/Open Source propaganda. Jon beat Apple by 6 > hours to presenting it to the public. Apple had a fully working product > by the presitation. Jon Trowbridge only had a preview of his work. > Google Desktop was announced soon after. Thats trends for you.... IIRC Microsoft was talking about this since ca. 1994.... They still haven't implemented it fully with part of it's features being available in Vista and indexing (disabled by many people and not that useful anyway) available at least since NT 5.0. WinFS is available as beta at the moment and IIRC Beagle/Spotlight still work better without redesigning filesystem :-) If somebody dug deep enough I think you could find an even older info about this :-D -- Paul Lasek ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 17+ messages in thread
* Re: Re: [9fans] I suppose if there's no other way to do it (a quote from the tcl web site) 2006-08-12 21:15 ` Paweł Lasek @ 2006-08-12 21:55 ` Russ Cox 2006-08-12 21:56 ` Russ Cox 0 siblings, 1 reply; 17+ messages in thread From: Russ Cox @ 2006-08-12 21:55 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs There's no prize for having the idea first if you do anything with it. Russ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 17+ messages in thread
* Re: Re: [9fans] I suppose if there's no other way to do it (a quote from the tcl web site) 2006-08-12 21:55 ` Russ Cox @ 2006-08-12 21:56 ` Russ Cox 2006-08-12 21:57 ` Francisco J Ballesteros 2006-08-13 3:25 ` Anthony Sorace 0 siblings, 2 replies; 17+ messages in thread From: Russ Cox @ 2006-08-12 21:56 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs There's no prize for having the idea first if you don't do anything with it. Grr. On 8/12/06, Russ Cox <rsc@swtch.com> wrote: > There's no prize for having the idea first if you do anything with it. > > Russ > ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 17+ messages in thread
* Re: Re: [9fans] I suppose if there's no other way to do it (a quote from the tcl web site) 2006-08-12 21:56 ` Russ Cox @ 2006-08-12 21:57 ` Francisco J Ballesteros 2006-08-13 3:25 ` Anthony Sorace 1 sibling, 0 replies; 17+ messages in thread From: Francisco J Ballesteros @ 2006-08-12 21:57 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs Isn´t having the idea the prize? :-) When I think that you guys had all this by the 80s... On 8/12/06, Russ Cox <rsc@swtch.com> wrote: > There's no prize for having the idea first if you don't do anything with it. > > Grr. > > On 8/12/06, Russ Cox <rsc@swtch.com> wrote: > > There's no prize for having the idea first if you do anything with it. > > > > Russ > > > > ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 17+ messages in thread
* Re: Re: Re: [9fans] I suppose if there's no other way to do it (a quote from the tcl web site) 2006-08-12 21:56 ` Russ Cox 2006-08-12 21:57 ` Francisco J Ballesteros @ 2006-08-13 3:25 ` Anthony Sorace 1 sibling, 0 replies; 17+ messages in thread From: Anthony Sorace @ 2006-08-13 3:25 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs On 8/12/06, Russ Cox <rsc@swtch.com> wrote: > There's no prize for having the idea first if you don't do anything with it. somebody please tell the PTO. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 17+ messages in thread
end of thread, other threads:[~2006-08-13 3:25 UTC | newest] Thread overview: 17+ messages (download: mbox.gz / follow: Atom feed) -- links below jump to the message on this page -- 2006-08-10 14:13 [9fans] I suppose if there's no other way to do it (a quote from the tcl web site) Ronald G Minnich 2006-08-11 0:26 ` LiteStar numnums 2006-08-11 7:21 ` David Leimbach 2006-08-11 11:45 ` erik quanstrom 2006-08-11 14:10 ` David Leimbach 2006-08-11 15:18 ` erik quanstrom 2006-08-11 14:16 ` Ronald G Minnich 2006-08-11 17:18 ` erik quanstrom 2006-08-12 6:19 ` Martin C. Atkins 2006-08-12 10:56 ` ems 2006-08-12 15:50 ` David Leimbach 2006-08-12 16:43 ` ems 2006-08-12 21:15 ` Paweł Lasek 2006-08-12 21:55 ` Russ Cox 2006-08-12 21:56 ` Russ Cox 2006-08-12 21:57 ` Francisco J Ballesteros 2006-08-13 3:25 ` Anthony Sorace
This is a public inbox, see mirroring instructions for how to clone and mirror all data and code used for this inbox; as well as URLs for NNTP newsgroup(s).