[9fans] what is differece(s) between sources and atom kernel?

[9fans] what is differece(s) between sources and atom kernel?

[kokamoto]

I've been considered why pc kernel dosen't work for go compiling,
however pcpae kernel does.   The 'sources' pc kernel works fine
(from David's talk here).

In the 'sources' pc kernel, there is a definition of fpssesave etc
in its l.s.
On the other hand, no definition in atom's pc kernel.
However, pcpae kernel have them in l.s (named ssesave etc).
I think this is the cause of different behaviours between them.
Am I right?

If so, why atom's pc (not pcpae) kernel dosen't have them?

I also checked two distributions these a few days.
Atom's distribution has libaml libfis, libxml, but
'sources' doesn't.

May I ask you, developpers of both, what the roadway of the
future of Plan 9?

Kenji

Re: [9fans] what is differece(s) between sources and atom kernel?

[erik quanstrom]

On Thu Apr  3 22:06:07 EDT 2014, kokamoto@hera.eonet.ne.jp wrote:
> I've been considered why pc kernel dosen't work for go compiling,
> however pcpae kernel does.   The 'sources' pc kernel works fine
> (from David's talk here).
>
> In the 'sources' pc kernel, there is a definition of fpssesave etc
> in its l.s.
> On the other hand, no definition in atom's pc kernel.
> However, pcpae kernel have them in l.s (named ssesave etc).
> I think this is the cause of different behaviours between them.
> Am I right?

yes, the 9atom pc kernel doesn't support SSE.  this is on purpose.
i thought support for multiple types of floating point in the same
kernel was not ideal.  and since i think of the pc kernel as there
mostly to support quite old hardware without sse support, and
really new and tiny hardware (also likely with funny floating point),
i thought it would work to just support sse in the PAE kernel.
pae isn't newfangled.  it was supported, iirc, by the ppro.

- erik

Re: [9fans] what is differece(s) between sources and atom kernel?

[Kurt H Maier]

Quoting erik quanstrom <quanstro@quanstro.net>:
> pae isn't newfangled.  it was supported, iirc, by the ppro.

And every subsequent x86 chip except Banias, for the
exclusion of which I will never forgive Intel.

khm

Re: [9fans] what is differece(s) between sources and atom kernel?

[kokamoto]

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Thanks eric.

I cannot judge which is better, though.
Are there any problems using 'sources' pc kernel, anyone?

Please put those notes on the top page of your atom site.
Your pcpae kernel has never problems here so far.
However, I wonder whether I need so much memory
in my Plan9.☺  My machine has only 4GB memory though.

How about libaml, libfis?
Why they are added? Or splitted from what?

Kenji

[-- Attachment #2: Type: message/rfc822, Size: 3931 bytes --]

From: erik quanstrom <quanstro@quanstro.net>
To: 9fans@9fans.net
Subject: Re: [9fans] what is differece(s) between sources and atom kernel?
Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2014 22:13:49 -0400
Message-ID: <4e70d3ef3441e82d13acf2e7ca090733@ladd.quanstro.net>

On Thu Apr  3 22:06:07 EDT 2014, kokamoto@hera.eonet.ne.jp wrote:
> I've been considered why pc kernel dosen't work for go compiling,
> however pcpae kernel does.   The 'sources' pc kernel works fine
> (from David's talk here).
>
> In the 'sources' pc kernel, there is a definition of fpssesave etc
> in its l.s.
> On the other hand, no definition in atom's pc kernel.
> However, pcpae kernel have them in l.s (named ssesave etc).
> I think this is the cause of different behaviours between them.
> Am I right?

yes, the 9atom pc kernel doesn't support SSE.  this is on purpose.
i thought support for multiple types of floating point in the same
kernel was not ideal.  and since i think of the pc kernel as there
mostly to support quite old hardware without sse support, and
really new and tiny hardware (also likely with funny floating point),
i thought it would work to just support sse in the PAE kernel.
pae isn't newfangled.  it was supported, iirc, by the ppro.

- erik

Re: [9fans] what is differece(s) between sources and atom kernel?

[erik quanstrom]

> However, I wonder whether I need so much memory
> in my Plan9.☺  My machine has only 4GB memory though.

if you don't have that much memory, i can't think of a downside to pae
over against regular 386.

also, since pae is only 18 years old, we can assert that you probablly
don't have a #9 video card in it or other such old stuff.  i have nothing
against the old stuff, but there has to be a way to clean out the closets. :-)

> How about libaml, libfis?
> Why they are added? Or splitted from what?

libaml -> acpi interpreter  (from cinap)
libfis -> sata/sas fis/frame en/decoding.  (new)

- erik

Re: [9fans] what is differece(s) between sources and atom kernel?

[kokamoto]

> but there has to be a way to clean out the closets. :-)

I completely agree with it!

This may not be serious to someone, however:

In Plan 9, there is no author's signature in the sources.
This may because Plan9 was a product of Bell Lab once.
So the programmers were the employees of the company.
It may be the reason why there are no signature there
(I may be wrong, if so please correct me),
However, we can guess them by who is responding to
the question... (I may be wrong).

In the world I've been lived, there is no paper or anything
without signature.

How do you, all the contributers, think about this?

Kenji

Re: [9fans] what is differece(s) between sources and atom kernel?

[lucio]

> How do you, all the contributers, think about this?

I find it inconvenient, but I can understand where it's coming from.
Different cultures as well as different legal requirements.

++L

Re: [9fans] what is differece(s) between sources and atom kernel?

[lucio]

> also, since pae is only 18 years old, we can assert that you probablly
> don't have a #9 video card in it or other such old stuff.  i have nothing
> against the old stuff, but there has to be a way to clean out the closets. :-)

I tend to trim down my kernel for at least some of the (old) machines I use.  For example:

% cat /sys/src/9/pc/foible
# foible - Lucio's workstation
dev
	root
	cons
	arch
	pnp		pci
	env
	pipe
	proc
	mnt
	srv
	dup
	rtc
	ssl
	tls
	cap
	kprof
	fs

	ether		netif
	ip		arp chandial ip ipv6 ipaux iproute netlog nullmedium pktmedium ptclbsum386 inferno

	draw		screen vga vgax
	mouse		mouse
	vga
	kbmap
	kbin

	sd
	floppy		dma
	aoe
	lpt

	ac97		dma
	uart
	usb

	wd

link
	audioac97	audioac97mix
	realmode
	apm		apmjump

	ether82557	pci

	ethermedium
	pcmciamodem
	netdevmedium
	loopbackmedium

	usbuhci
	usbehci		usbehcipc

	x86watchdog

misc
	archmp		mp apic mpacpi
	mtrr

	sdata		pci sdscsi

	uarti8250
	uartpci		pci

	vgas3		+cur vgasavage
	vgavesa

ip
	il
	tcp
	udp
	rudp
	ipifc
	icmp
	icmp6
	gre
	ipmux
	esp

port
	int cpuserver = 0;

boot boot #S/sdC0/
	tcp
	il
	local

bootdir
	boot$CONF.out boot
	/386/bin/ip/ipconfig
	/386/bin/auth/factotum
	/386/bin/cfs
	/386/bin/usb/usbd


There's some unused stuff left over, I'm sure, but it's a smaller
kernel:

--rwxrwxr-x M 12 lucio sys 2108931 Mar 28 20:05 /386/9foible
--rwxrwxr-x M 12 sys   sys 2588634 Dec  3 00:50 /386/9pc

Perhaps not much, I thought taking out all the VGA redundancy would
make a bigger difference.

And, for the curious, AC97 works quite adequately, but I haven't been
able to get IL to work, the fileserver connection fails (yes, the file
server also has IL in the kernel).

++L

Re: [9fans] what is differece(s) between sources and atom kernel?

[lucio]

> My machine has only 4GB memory though.

Can somebody please include this in the fortunes database?

++L

Re: [9fans] what is differece(s) between sources and atom kernel?

[kokamoto]

>> My machine has only 4GB memory though.
> 
> Can somebody please include this in the fortunes database?

そんなアホな!
止めてお願い

Kenji

Re: [9fans] what is differece(s) between sources and atom kernel?

[kokamoto]

>> Can somebody please include this in the fortunes database?
> 
> そんなアホな!
> 止めてお願い

Hmm, nupas passed UTF8 encoded Japanese mail.
Sorry all of others.

It means, dont't do it, please!

Kenji