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From: lucio@proxima.alt.za
To: 9fans@9fans.net
Subject: Re: [9fans] sad commentary
Date: Wed,  2 Jul 2008 06:52:07 +0200	[thread overview]
Message-ID: <76d4d81b31c5601c83820bb37c83907b@proxima.alt.za> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <970551641B57BC6070158BA7@[172.16.10.224]>

> It's fine, if you're fine with it ;-) Do you ever visit any AJAX enabled
> websites? Do you consider AJAX a superfluous technology? Do you switch to
> your "other OS" machine--or reboot your current machine--if and when you
> visit GMail's pages (at least to enable IMAP access for the first time)?
> What's your opinion on good ol' non-standard CSS? Won't you ever want to
> use one of these new "content delivery" systems, such as Microsoft
> Silverlight or Adobe Flash?

You're putting the cart before the horse.  Of course there is
"utility" computing out there and of course there is Microsoft to fill
that niche.  And Linux to follow in its footsteps.  But there is a
frightening prospect if you assume that utility computing is all that
computing is about, namely that only massive programming effort is
required to produce any sort of computing product.

Let me try this as a comparison.  Less than a hundred years ago,
Bugatti manufactured one motorvehicle a year, from scratch.  I'm not
sure how many persons were involved, the impression I have from
hearsay is that it was a single individual.  Today, you need the might
of the Chinese or Indian manufacturers to enter the motorvehicle
manufacturing business.  Or huge investment effort for the new
eco-friendly vehicles.

Utility computing is perfectly fine as long as it is balanced by
original development, but it is poisonous if it preclueds any original
participation.  Open Source is one form of rebellion, but it lacks the
robust foundations of sound program development.  Plan 9 is a much
smaller, better designed approach.  I'm sure we won't see Plan 9
deployed widely any time soon, it lacks the "utility" nature of the
contenders and I'm sorry to see that happening, but that is the nature
of the beast.  Had Plan 9 caught the imagination of the "masses", it
would have grown the same tumors as Linux, and that would have
defeated its nature.

Think Pascal: it is hardly the language of choice today, but the
principles it enshrines have totally altered the programming language
landscape.  C is the utility version, and C++ and Java its obvious
offsprings.  Alef has been abandoned and Limbo remains a very
specialised language, but they will also leave their mark.

So, I think this dicussion is based on a premise whose value is purely
emotional: we'd all be more comfortable if Plan 9 was widely accepted,
but there is no intellectual reason for it to be so.  Rob Pike says
the same thing in a nutshell, but in reality it is the philosophy
behind Plan 9 that needs spreading: careful design, generalised
objects, simplicity rather than bulk, etc.  Not Rio or Acme, Fossil or
Venti, but the environment in which they can thrive.  The environment
in which Mozilla is difficult to create so that simpler solutions can
be sought.

++L




  reply	other threads:[~2008-07-02  4:52 UTC|newest]

Thread overview: 134+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
2008-07-01  8:25 Eris Discordia
2008-07-02  4:52 ` lucio [this message]
2008-07-02  5:21   ` Robert William Fuller
2008-07-02  6:09     ` andrey mirtchovski
2008-07-02 18:58       ` Wes Kussmaul
2008-07-02 19:14         ` erik quanstrom
2008-07-02 21:20           ` Skip Tavakkolian
2008-07-03  0:19       ` Robert William Fuller
2008-07-02  9:28     ` lucio
2008-07-02 17:55       ` David Leimbach
2008-07-02 12:04     ` erik quanstrom
2008-07-03  0:13       ` Robert William Fuller
2008-07-03  0:17       ` Robert William Fuller
2008-07-03  2:16         ` Adrian Tritschler
2008-07-03  8:43           ` Robert Raschke
2008-07-03 10:25             ` Steve Simon
2008-07-03 12:27             ` dave.l
2008-07-03 18:12               ` Michaelian Ennis
2008-07-05 17:14             ` Wes Kussmaul
2008-07-05 17:43             ` Wes Kussmaul
2008-07-03  9:39           ` Rodolfo kix García 
2008-07-04 11:26           ` matt
2008-07-04 10:58         ` matt
     [not found] <970551641B57BC6070158BA7@172.16.10.224>
2008-07-01  8:38 ` Francisco J Ballesteros
2008-07-01 20:36 ` Iruata Souza
     [not found] <6AB24A226A77E17024CF16B9@172.16.10.224>
2008-07-01 20:22 ` Iruata Souza
2008-07-01 20:30 ` Iruata Souza
     [not found] <6653239E78712E5C0992CFE3@172.16.10.224>
2008-07-01 12:49 ` ron minnich
2008-07-01 20:40 ` Iruata Souza
2008-07-01 21:40   ` Charles Forsyth
  -- strict thread matches above, loose matches on Subject: below --
2008-07-01  8:42 Eris Discordia
2008-07-01  8:28 Eris Discordia
2008-07-01  7:47 Eris Discordia
2008-07-01 13:15 ` john
     [not found] <A5F2B9F56DBEDAA4DDA2E579@172.16.10.224>
2008-07-01  7:23 ` andrey mirtchovski
2008-07-01  8:45   ` Eris Discordia
     [not found]   ` <E65EC37F521210B28673D390@172.16.10.224>
2008-07-01  9:41     ` Federico G. Benavento
2008-07-01 10:40       ` Andrés Domínguez
2008-07-01 22:02       ` Eris Discordia
2008-07-01 22:40         ` erik quanstrom
2008-07-01 23:43         ` a
2008-07-02  5:44         ` Federico G. Benavento
2008-07-02  6:19           ` John Waters
2008-07-01  7:04 Eris Discordia
2008-07-01 14:06 ` cummij
2008-07-01 14:16   ` ron minnich
2008-07-01  6:47 Eris Discordia
2008-07-01  7:42 ` John Stalker
2008-07-01 13:24 ` Eric Van Hensbergen
2008-07-01 13:32   ` john
2008-07-01 21:35     ` Pietro Gagliardi
2008-07-01 21:53       ` Dan Cross
2008-07-01 22:17         ` Pietro Gagliardi
2008-07-01 21:55       ` john
2008-07-01 17:44 ` Russ Cox
     [not found] <B7A30661A94738A2B9BE1EA7@172.16.10.200>
2008-06-30 23:02 ` Uriel
2008-06-30 22:32 Eris Discordia
2008-06-30 22:13 Eris Discordia
2008-06-30 22:48 ` Rob Pike
2008-06-30 23:17   ` Francisco J Ballesteros
2008-06-30 23:28   ` Federico G. Benavento
2008-07-01  6:53     ` bblochl
2008-07-01  9:21       ` Federico G. Benavento
2008-07-01 13:50         ` David Leimbach
2008-07-01 14:10           ` hiro
2008-07-01 15:20         ` Uriel
2008-07-01 19:21           ` bblochl
2008-07-01 22:55           ` Jack Johnson
2008-07-01 12:44       ` ron minnich
2008-07-01 13:35   ` David Leimbach
2008-07-01 13:47     ` john
2008-07-01 13:59     ` John Waters
2008-07-01 14:03       ` David Leimbach
2008-06-30 22:56 ` erik quanstrom
2008-06-30 23:07 ` a
2008-06-30 23:11 ` Skip Tavakkolian
2008-07-01  8:01   ` Eris Discordia
     [not found]   ` <EBDCEA43BFC1C5EE4070BC1E@172.16.10.224>
2008-07-01 20:33     ` Iruata Souza
2008-07-02  8:38 ` DaveL
2008-06-30 21:45 Eris Discordia
2008-07-01 15:40 ` michael block
2008-06-30 19:12 Eris Discordia
2008-06-30 20:01 ` ron minnich
2008-06-30 21:20   ` Eris Discordia
2008-06-30 23:23     ` Iruata Souza
2008-07-01  0:22     ` ron minnich
2008-07-01 10:52   ` John Waters
2008-07-01 11:19     ` hiro
2008-06-30 20:11 ` michael block
2008-06-30 20:42 ` Skip Tavakkolian
2008-06-30 20:55   ` Eric Van Hensbergen
2008-06-30 23:06     ` Bakul Shah
2008-06-30 23:21       ` Francisco J Ballesteros
2008-06-30 23:22       ` Lyndon Nerenberg
2008-07-01  9:37         ` Stefan Groß
2008-06-30 14:55 erik quanstrom
2008-06-30 15:36 ` Charles Forsyth
2008-06-30 17:26   ` Pietro Gagliardi
2008-06-30 17:06 ` Steven D. Vormwald
2008-06-30 17:34   ` john
2008-06-30 18:33     ` Francisco J Ballesteros
2008-06-30 18:47       ` Tom Lieber
2008-06-30 23:28     ` Pietro Gagliardi
2008-06-30 18:16   ` John Stalker
2008-06-30 18:27     ` a
2008-07-02  6:48       ` sqweek
2008-07-02  7:39         ` gdiaz
2008-07-02 12:17           ` erik quanstrom
2008-07-02 12:35         ` erik quanstrom
2008-07-22 14:16           ` sqweek
2008-07-22 14:47             ` Kernel Panic
2008-07-22 14:50               ` erik quanstrom
2008-07-22 15:50               ` Charles Forsyth
2008-07-22 15:50                 ` sqweek
2008-07-22 15:46             ` C H Forsyth
2008-06-30 21:19   ` erik quanstrom
2008-06-30  2:21 erik quanstrom
2008-06-30  2:32 ` john
2008-06-30  3:10   ` Tim Wiess
2008-06-30  5:24     ` underspecified
2008-06-30  6:57       ` Francisco J Ballesteros
2008-06-30  7:50         ` John Waters
2008-06-30  8:03           ` Fco. J. Ballesteros
2008-06-30  2:38 ` Uriel
2008-06-30 12:06   ` Pietro Gagliardi
2008-06-30 13:46     ` bblochl
2008-06-30 17:27       ` Pietro Gagliardi
2008-06-30 13:48     ` bblochl
2008-06-30 13:52       ` john
2008-06-30 14:00         ` bblochl
2008-06-30 14:07           ` john
2008-06-30 17:23             ` Pietro Gagliardi
2008-06-30 17:21       ` Pietro Gagliardi
2008-06-30 17:34 ` ron minnich

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