Re: [9fans] How about some software?

Re: [9fans] How about some software?

[rob pike, esq.]

P.S. The code to make gifs appear in acme windows took me about
an hour. It's trivial.  Try it if you want to have some fun.

-rob

Re: [9fans] How about some software?

[peter a. cejchan]

rob@plan9.bell-labs.com (rob pike, esq.) wrote in message news:<9961d296571744dbf9825d960fe7c9a4@plan9.bell-labs.com>...
> Personally, I feel plumbing did about 75% of what I wanted graphics
> in acme to do: to be able to click on an image file or web address or
> whatever and open it.  I think there's plenty of room to explore, though.
>
> -rob
>
> --

100% agreement from a non-techie! I prefer keeping the design clean
and the system modular as much as possible. I don't miss the
'bells-and-whistles' of 99.9% of current web pages.
And thanks to all who posted the plumbing rules for us otherwho can
learn from them (and prevented us from reinventing the wheel ;-)

++pac.

Re: [9fans] How about some software?

[okamoto]

Oh, thanks!
I'll learn to use it from now.

However, whenever you or rog offers us some examples of plumb
programming, I'm always dissapointed it's hard to remember the
rules.   Why plumbing rule cannot be so clear as such C labguage.
Sorry, I hate shell programming, ether.  :-)

Kenji

Re: [9fans] How about some software?

[rob pike, esq.]

> Plumbing , however, cannot communicate data when some external graphics
> programs are running, can it?

Sure it can.  What's missing is a good UI to drive it.

-rob

Re: [9fans] How about some software?

[okamoto]

>Personally, I feel plumbing did about 75% of what I wanted graphics

I agree with you!
Plumbing , however, cannot communicate data when some external graphics
programs are running, can it?

Everytime I saw many user interface to form "forms", which would be
the most major purpose for interractive input :-), I feel what a 'nice'
GUI expression of merely curses at most...   Acme can afford us a more
powerful and smart user interface for it, I suppose...

Kenji  --cutted many Include phrases for simplicity

Re: [9fans] How about some software?

[rob pike, esq.]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 223 bytes --]

Personally, I feel plumbing did about 75% of what I wanted graphics
in acme to do: to be able to click on an image file or web address or
whatever and open it.  I think there's plenty of room to explore, though.

-rob

[-- Attachment #2: Type: message/rfc822, Size: 8358 bytes --]

From: okamoto@granite.cias.osakafu-u.ac.jp
To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu
Subject: Re: [9fans] How about some software?
Date: Wed, 19 Jun 2002 13:00:05 +0900
Message-ID: <20020619040126.8715419980@mail.cse.psu.edu>

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Do you think we need to have graphic programs in acme itself?
I supposed it's not possible or not easy (at least to me ;_;), if we want
to keep the benefits of acme.

If we could have a mechanism to communicate with external graphics
programs and acme, say such that when we need some more complicated
interactive user action, such that giving many data for GUI DBMS, we can
use acme's editer and that coworking graphics programs.

I'm not sure that kind of mechanism has been implemented already or not.
Multiple threading may serve for it?

I may saying something stupid, if so please neglect it.

Kenji


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Subject: Re: [9fans] How about some software?
From: "rob pike, esq." <rob@plan9.bell-labs.com>
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I've dabbled with this a couple of times.  Once I even got working
code that was kinda fun, but I dropped it because I didn't like the
implementation.  All it did was display an image, no input was
available, but e.g.  clicking on foo.gif put foo.gif in an acme window
(this was before plumbing, and was in fact part of the inspiration
behind doing plumbing in the first place, so i could move button 3
rules out of acme code).

After some further thought, I decided the best plan was to represent a
window in acme as a published (via nameimage) image file in the draw
device.  Perhaps that image would not be the window itself, but its
backing store (to use old terminology), but the point is that external
programs could get access to the window much as they do in rio.  Such
windows would need auxiliary files to drive them, and would in the end
require a great deal of duplication of rio's functionality, which is
one of the reasons I didn't pursue it (too much work, too much
duplication) but I was hoping to find a way that some of acme's
structure could survive.  It seemed the best way to achieve that might
be to allow old programs (say, sam) to run in an acme window but not
to push acme very far to make that happen.  Instead, it would be more
productive to design new I/O mechanisms that allowed programs written
specifically for this environment to run there.  This might mean, for
instance, a special toolkit that allowed click-through for selection
and plumbing events.

It was all very vague, even after a couple of throwaway attempts,
but what was clear was that I didn't want to reproduce rio, I wanted
to make an acme-like feel possible for graphics, but I had only
rudimentary ideas about how to do that.

-rob

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Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 19:01:01 +0200

Time to think about adding images to acme?

I scheduled one week late in July as part of my vacation just to think
about it and give it a try.

Any plans? ideas?

My current idea is just to pretend that an acme window can accept
libdraw requests, it's size would be fixed to the current acme window
size.
No graphics mixed with text, since graphics programs draw their own
text.
Does it make sense?


"rob pike, esq." ha escrito:
>
> > why not lynx? Ascii browsers are fast!
>
> The various piece parts we have here that let Acme do web things
> are sufficient for much webbing, but without pictures it's really
> not the same experience.  images.google.com is worthless, for
> example, and that's one of my favorite services.
>
> -rob
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Re: [9fans] How about some software?

[okamoto]

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
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Do you think we need to have graphic programs in acme itself?
I supposed it's not possible or not easy (at least to me ;_;), if we want
to keep the benefits of acme.

If we could have a mechanism to communicate with external graphics
programs and acme, say such that when we need some more complicated
interactive user action, such that giving many data for GUI DBMS, we can
use acme's editer and that coworking graphics programs.

I'm not sure that kind of mechanism has been implemented already or not.
Multiple threading may serve for it?

I may saying something stupid, if so please neglect it.

Kenji


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I've dabbled with this a couple of times.  Once I even got working
code that was kinda fun, but I dropped it because I didn't like the
implementation.  All it did was display an image, no input was
available, but e.g.  clicking on foo.gif put foo.gif in an acme window
(this was before plumbing, and was in fact part of the inspiration
behind doing plumbing in the first place, so i could move button 3
rules out of acme code).

After some further thought, I decided the best plan was to represent a
window in acme as a published (via nameimage) image file in the draw
device.  Perhaps that image would not be the window itself, but its
backing store (to use old terminology), but the point is that external
programs could get access to the window much as they do in rio.  Such
windows would need auxiliary files to drive them, and would in the end
require a great deal of duplication of rio's functionality, which is
one of the reasons I didn't pursue it (too much work, too much
duplication) but I was hoping to find a way that some of acme's
structure could survive.  It seemed the best way to achieve that might
be to allow old programs (say, sam) to run in an acme window but not
to push acme very far to make that happen.  Instead, it would be more
productive to design new I/O mechanisms that allowed programs written
specifically for this environment to run there.  This might mean, for
instance, a special toolkit that allowed click-through for selection
and plumbing events.

It was all very vague, even after a couple of throwaway attempts,
but what was clear was that I didn't want to reproduce rio, I wanted
to make an acme-like feel possible for graphics, but I had only
rudimentary ideas about how to do that.

-rob

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Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 19:01:01 +0200

Time to think about adding images to acme?

I scheduled one week late in July as part of my vacation just to think
about it and give it a try.

Any plans? ideas?

My current idea is just to pretend that an acme window can accept
libdraw requests, it's size would be fixed to the current acme window
size.
No graphics mixed with text, since graphics programs draw their own
text.
Does it make sense?


"rob pike, esq." ha escrito:
>
> > why not lynx? Ascii browsers are fast!
>
> The various piece parts we have here that let Acme do web things
> are sufficient for much webbing, but without pictures it's really
> not the same experience.  images.google.com is worthless, for
> example, and that's one of my favorite services.
>
> -rob
--upas-pcfljzsnflbcxkzqulxtunmlfz--
--upas-vgpazmcnyyozejxnqjhamcqfci--

Re: [9fans] How about some software?

[rob pike, esq.]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1762 bytes --]

I've dabbled with this a couple of times.  Once I even got working
code that was kinda fun, but I dropped it because I didn't like the
implementation.  All it did was display an image, no input was
available, but e.g.  clicking on foo.gif put foo.gif in an acme window
(this was before plumbing, and was in fact part of the inspiration
behind doing plumbing in the first place, so i could move button 3
rules out of acme code).

After some further thought, I decided the best plan was to represent a
window in acme as a published (via nameimage) image file in the draw
device.  Perhaps that image would not be the window itself, but its
backing store (to use old terminology), but the point is that external
programs could get access to the window much as they do in rio.  Such
windows would need auxiliary files to drive them, and would in the end
require a great deal of duplication of rio's functionality, which is
one of the reasons I didn't pursue it (too much work, too much
duplication) but I was hoping to find a way that some of acme's
structure could survive.  It seemed the best way to achieve that might
be to allow old programs (say, sam) to run in an acme window but not
to push acme very far to make that happen.  Instead, it would be more
productive to design new I/O mechanisms that allowed programs written
specifically for this environment to run there.  This might mean, for
instance, a special toolkit that allowed click-through for selection
and plumbing events.

It was all very vague, even after a couple of throwaway attempts,
but what was clear was that I didn't want to reproduce rio, I wanted
to make an acme-like feel possible for graphics, but I had only
rudimentary ideas about how to do that.

-rob

[-- Attachment #2: Type: message/rfc822, Size: 2477 bytes --]

From: FJ Ballesteros <nemo@gsyc.escet.urjc.es>
To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu
Subject: Re: [9fans] How about some software?
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 19:01:01 +0200
Message-ID: <3D0F674D.5992D721@gsyc.escet.urjc.es>

Time to think about adding images to acme?

I scheduled one week late in July as part of my vacation just to think
about it and give it a try.

Any plans? ideas?

My current idea is just to pretend that an acme window can accept
libdraw requests, it's size would be fixed to the current acme window
size.
No graphics mixed with text, since graphics programs draw their own
text.
Does it make sense?


"rob pike, esq." ha escrito:
>
> > why not lynx? Ascii browsers are fast!
>
> The various piece parts we have here that let Acme do web things
> are sufficient for much webbing, but without pictures it's really
> not the same experience.  images.google.com is worthless, for
> example, and that's one of my favorite services.
>
> -rob

Re: [9fans] How about some software?

[Russ Cox]

if you make acme windows just funny-shaped rio windows
to some programs, i'm not so sure how useful that is.
it might be nice for running page, but for web browsing
you'd lose all the nice things acme gives you for free --
text management, cut and paste, editing, and so on.

oberon had object code associated with everything, so
i get the impression it was easier to integrate graphics
into the text without losing the text editing where
applicable.

not having thought much about this,
russ

Re: [9fans] How about some software?

[FJ Ballesteros]

Time to think about adding images to acme?

I scheduled one week late in July as part of my vacation just to think
about it and give it a try.

Any plans? ideas?

My current idea is just to pretend that an acme window can accept
libdraw requests, it's size would be fixed to the current acme window
size.
No graphics mixed with text, since graphics programs draw their own
text.
Does it make sense?


"rob pike, esq." ha escrito:
>
> > why not lynx? Ascii browsers are fast!
>
> The various piece parts we have here that let Acme do web things
> are sufficient for much webbing, but without pictures it's really
> not the same experience.  images.google.com is worthless, for
> example, and that's one of my favorite services.
>
> -rob

Re: [9fans] How about some software?

[Christopher Nielsen]

On Mon, Jun 17, 2002 at 09:40:31AM -0400, rob pike, esq. wrote:
> > But most of all, what about a good web browser?  Anyone know where to
> > find Mothra for download or something similar?
>
> I'm surprised no one has tried porting Mozilla.

Isn't Mozilla's codebase larger than all of Plan9? :-)

--
Christopher Nielsen - Metal-wielding pyro techie
"Those who are willing to trade freedom for security deserve
 neither freedom nor security." --Benjamin Franklin

Re: [9fans] How about some software?

[rog]

rob writes:
> type is text
> data matches '(https?|ftp|file|gopher|mailto|news|nntp|telnet|wais|prospero)://[a-zA-Z0-9_@\-]+([.:][a-zA-Z0-9_@\-]+)*/?[a-zA-Z0-9_?,%#~&/\-+=]+([:.][a-zA-Z0-9_?,%#~&/\-+=]+)*'

i've been using a similar rule for a while now; my rule looks like:

achar='[a-zA-Z0-9_+@]'
qchar='[a-zA-Z0-9_?,%!#~&.=@+/\-;]'
type is text
data matches '(https?|ftp|file|gopher|mailto|news|nntp|telnet|wais|prospero)://'$achar'+([.:]'$achar'+)*/?'$qchar'+([:.]'$qchar'+)*'

which covers some cases the former doesn't (and probably doesn't cover
some it does). i'll leave merging the two as an exercise for the reader.
it's been a looong day.

Re: [9fans] How about some software?

[rog]

rob writes:
> type is text
> data matches '(https?|ftp|file|gopher|mailto|news|nntp|telnet|wais|prospero)://[a-zA-Z0-9_@\-]+([.:][a-zA-Z0-9_@\-]+)*/?[a-zA-Z0-9_?,%#~&/\-+=]+([:.][a-zA-Z0-9_?,%#~&/\-+=]+)*'

i've been using a similar rule for a while now; my rule looks like:

achar='[a-zA-Z0-9_+@]'
qchar='[a-zA-Z0-9_?,%!#~&.=@+/\-;]'
type is text
data matches '(https?|ftp|file|gopher|mailto|news|nntp|telnet|wais|prospero)://'$achar'+([.:]'$achar'+)*/?'$qchar'+([:.]'$qchar'+)*'

which covers some cases the former doesn't (and probably doesn't cover
some it does). i'll leave merging the two as an exercise for the reader.
it's been a looong day.

Re: [9fans] How about some software?

[Micah Stetson]

> # cheap html to text renderer
 ...

If you use htmlfmt -u $1 in wurl2txt, you get links that you
can right click on in acme.  Also, images are placed in the
output as [image <url>].  Then a slight modification of
rob's plumbing rule can be used to view images in a separate
window:

type is text
data matches 'image (https?|ftp|file|gopher|mailto|news|nntp|telnet|wais|prospero)://[a-zA-Z0-9_@\-]+([.:][a-zA-Z0-9_@\-]+)*/?[a-zA-Z0-9_?,%#~&/\-+=]+([:.][a-zA-Z0-9_?,%#~&/\-+=]+)*'
plumb start wurl2img $0

and here's wurl2img:

#!/bin/rc

switch($#*){
case 0
	exit
case 1
	# send hget errors to 2 so they appear in window
	hget $1 >[2=1]| plumb -i -d image
	exit
case *
	for(i in *)
		wurl2img $i
}

Granted, htmlfmt -u is not as pretty as just htmlfmt, but the
fact that acme gives you almost-hypertext at no extra cost
is really cool nonetheless.

Micah

Re: [9fans] How about some software?

[rob pike, esq.]

here's the plumbing rule:

# cheap html to text renderer
type is text
data matches '(https?|ftp|file|gopher|mailto|news|nntp|telnet|wais|prospero)://[a-zA-Z0-9_@\-]+([.:][a-zA-Z0-9_@\-]+)*/?[a-zA-Z0-9_?,%#~&/\-+=]+([:.][a-zA-Z0-9_?,%#~&/\-+=]+)*'
plumb start wurl2txt $0

here's wurl2txt:

#!/bin/rc

switch($#*){
case 0
	exit
case 1
	name = /`{echo $1 | sed 's;.*//;;
		s;/.*;;'}^/webpage
	# send hget errors to 2 so they appear in window
	hget $1 >[2=1]| {echo $1; echo; htmlfmt} >[2=1] | plumb -i -d edit -a 'action=showdata filename='$name
	exit
case *
	for(i in *)
		wurl2txt $i
}

Re: [9fans] How about some software?

[andrey mirtchovski]

> The various piece parts we have here that let Acme do web things
> are sufficient for much webbing, but without pictures it's really
> not the same experience.  images.google.com is worthless, for
> example, and that's one of my favorite services.
>

you mean something like right clicking on http://blah would plumb it
to hget | htmlfmt and then back to acme?  that seems like a reasonable
p9-ish way of doing it..  I imagine it'd be easy to get used to, if
one's familiar with acme already...

without pictures though it could hardly replace the vnc session with,
say, opera in an X window (an aside observation -- i was displaying
some graphics programs in a vnc window (1024x768, 8bpp) and am very
impressed by the speed it had over a 100mbit network...  no jitter at
all)...

Re: [9fans] How about some software?

[rob pike, esq.]

> why not lynx? Ascii browsers are fast!

The various piece parts we have here that let Acme do web things
are sufficient for much webbing, but without pictures it's really
not the same experience.  images.google.com is worthless, for
example, and that's one of my favorite services.

-rob

Re: [9fans] How about some software?

[Ronald G Minnich]

On Mon, 17 Jun 2002, rob pike, esq. wrote:

> I'm surprised no one has tried porting Mozilla.

why not lynx? Ascii browsers are fast!

ron

Re: [9fans] How about some software?

[Sam]

>
> I'm surprised no one has tried porting Mozilla.

The last time I tried to *use* Mozilla the installer
kept crashing.  Couple that with a bug report I submitted
well over a year ago that I was just notified still hasn't
been fixed, and I'm not surprised at all.  (Yes, I recognize
rob's levity)

If, however, anyone does port it, I'd be happy to write an
epic poem about the brave coder's experience.

Sam

Re: [9fans] How about some software?

[rob pike, esq.]

> But most of all, what about a good web browser?  Anyone know where to
> find Mothra for download or something similar?

I'm surprised no one has tried porting Mozilla.

-rob

[9fans] How about some software?

[Ben]

Don't get me wrong here, I think Plan 9 is great.  It's interfaces and
theory of operation are obviously superior to UNIX's.  I see potential
for it to make far more powerful servers than UNIX, but not until we
get some more "universal" server apps for it.  It would be nice to see
Apache and Samba ported to Plan 9.  Also, maybe a good database like
PostgreSQL or MySQL, and some cross-platform scripting like tcl/tk.
(I'd do it myself, but unfortunately, I don't have the skills.)  There
already is a way to serve NFS to UNIX, right?

But most of all, what about a good web browser?  Anyone know where to
find Mothra for download or something similar?

Thanks everyone!