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* Posix implementation of Plan 9 cpu(1) (Was: [9fans] Command to set samterm label)
@ 2021-07-19  4:52 Lucio De Re
  2021-07-19  5:20 ` Michael Misch
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 17+ messages in thread
From: Lucio De Re @ 2021-07-19  4:52 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 9fans

On 7/19/21, adr via 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> wrote:
> [ ...].  Running samterm locally is way more efficient than
> using X forwarding.
>
I have adopted on my Linux (Mint) workstations - plural - the paradigm:

    ssh -fX remote acme -l lib/task.acme # for different tasks

and it works even remotely pretty adequately. The remotes tend to be
pretty slick Debian servers, but even locally that is a  boon (NetBSD
rules the Posix roost in my office).

What I can't do is to do the same from the Plan 9 workstation that I
still prefer for development. I was bemoaning this in some notes to
myself just before reading the exchange.

Now, it is very common, even after all these years of Plan 9 use, for
me to miss the wood for the trees. I think, not very deeply, that P9P
"cpu" running on the remote Posix server might be what I need - Plan 9
SSH and I seem to be sworn enemies and X-fdorwarding is not even a
twinkle in SSH's eye - and here I note that Steve Simon's cpu server
for Windows has not been included in P9P (I heard Steve bring that up,
but I have never explored it as I don't own a Windows platform).

In short, is it out of the question to cpu into a Posix server to
initiate an acme session, rather than using SSH to forward X?

Lucio.

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* Re: Posix implementation of Plan 9 cpu(1) (Was: [9fans] Command to set samterm label)
  2021-07-19  4:52 Posix implementation of Plan 9 cpu(1) (Was: [9fans] Command to set samterm label) Lucio De Re
@ 2021-07-19  5:20 ` Michael Misch
  2021-07-19  7:13   ` Steve Simon
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 17+ messages in thread
From: Michael Misch @ 2021-07-19  5:20 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 9fans

I’ve started toying with that very idea Lucio, but I haven’t had much time to really vet the ideas. My work has been specifically for 9front and rcpu

> On Jul 18, 2021, at 9:53 PM, Lucio De Re <lucio.dere@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> On 7/19/21, adr via 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> wrote:
>> [ ...].  Running samterm locally is way more efficient than
>> using X forwarding.
>> 
> I have adopted on my Linux (Mint) workstations - plural - the paradigm:
> 
> ssh -fX remote acme -l lib/task.acme # for different tasks
> 
> and it works even remotely pretty adequately. The remotes tend to be
> pretty slick Debian servers, but even locally that is a  boon (NetBSD
> rules the Posix roost in my office).
> 
> What I can't do is to do the same from the Plan 9 workstation that I
> still prefer for development. I was bemoaning this in some notes to
> myself just before reading the exchange.
> 
> Now, it is very common, even after all these years of Plan 9 use, for
> me to miss the wood for the trees. I think, not very deeply, that P9P
> "cpu" running on the remote Posix server might be what I need - Plan 9
> SSH and I seem to be sworn enemies and X-fdorwarding is not even a
> twinkle in SSH's eye - and here I note that Steve Simon's cpu server
> for Windows has not been included in P9P (I heard Steve bring that up,
> but I have never explored it as I don't own a Windows platform).
> 
> In short, is it out of the question to cpu into a Posix server to
> initiate an acme session, rather than using SSH to forward X?
> 
> Lucio.

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* Re: Posix implementation of Plan 9 cpu(1) (Was: [9fans] Command to set samterm label)
  2021-07-19  5:20 ` Michael Misch
@ 2021-07-19  7:13   ` Steve Simon
  2021-07-21  3:52     ` Lucio De Re
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 17+ messages in thread
From: Steve Simon @ 2021-07-19  7:13 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 9fans


my cpu for windows was always incomplete, but good enough that i never finished it properly.

for posix i just use sftpfs or now cinap’s sshftp to import the filesystem from the posix box as /n/fred and run sam locally (i am a samista rather than an acmeite)

i cannot run stuff remotely but i can edit in a nice environment. is this not enough?

-Steve



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* Re: Posix implementation of Plan 9 cpu(1) (Was: [9fans] Command to set samterm label)
  2021-07-19  7:13   ` Steve Simon
@ 2021-07-21  3:52     ` Lucio De Re
  2021-07-21 14:59       ` Xiao-Yong Jin
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 17+ messages in thread
From: Lucio De Re @ 2021-07-21  3:52 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 9fans

On 7/19/21, Steve Simon <steve@quintile.net> wrote:
>
> my cpu for windows was always incomplete, but good enough that i never
> finished it properly.
>
It's on contrib, is it not? I'll take a peek, if my haphazard priority
list allows it :-)

> for posix i just use sftpfs or now cinap’s sshftp to import the filesystem
> from the posix box as /n/fred and run sam locally (i am a samista rather
> than an acmeite)
>
I am aware. Acme is addictive, warts and all.

> i cannot run stuff remotely but i can edit in a nice environment. is this
> not enough?
>
Well, what I have taken to do is to run acme on the remote Posix
server (no Windows, I am no masochist, and I can't waste time on the
Apple bandwagon) across X forwarding, which is quite a bit on the good
side of tolerable. And win is OK for quite a bit of remote command
line interaction. I don't think it would pay to build ncurses into
that :-).

But from my Plan 9 workstation that is absurdly not possible. Or, I
have missed a step and I need somebody to rattle me some: what would
it take to serve 9P on Posix (in P9P, in other words) over the
network? Fontsrv and gitsrv would be immediate beneficiaries.

Lucio.

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* Re: Posix implementation of Plan 9 cpu(1) (Was: [9fans] Command to set samterm label)
  2021-07-21  3:52     ` Lucio De Re
@ 2021-07-21 14:59       ` Xiao-Yong Jin
  2021-07-21 15:11         ` hiro
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 17+ messages in thread
From: Xiao-Yong Jin @ 2021-07-21 14:59 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 9fans

> On Jul 20, 2021, at 10:52 PM, Lucio De Re <lucio.dere@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> what would
> it take to serve 9P on Posix (in P9P, in other words) over the
> network? Fontsrv and gitsrv would be immediate beneficiaries.

Just run it like,

        fontsrv -s 'tcp!192.168.9.2!1500'

and I've no idea what gitsrv is.

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* Re: Posix implementation of Plan 9 cpu(1) (Was: [9fans] Command to set samterm label)
  2021-07-21 14:59       ` Xiao-Yong Jin
@ 2021-07-21 15:11         ` hiro
  2021-07-21 16:08           ` Dan Cross
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 17+ messages in thread
From: hiro @ 2021-07-21 15:11 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 9fans

if i want to serve files from a linux, i sometimes run drawterm on the
linux, export stuff to an /srv and then access that from the other
side.

theoretically you can automate that also from the other side, make
some script for the /srv stuff, and run it from 9front via ssh via
drawterm:

ssh linuxpc drawterm -c srvdev.rc

yes it's a lot of back and forth, but ssh only is needed for running
the process, the data afterwards can use 9p directly.

On 7/21/21, Xiao-Yong Jin <meta.jxy@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Jul 20, 2021, at 10:52 PM, Lucio De Re <lucio.dere@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> what would
>> it take to serve 9P on Posix (in P9P, in other words) over the
>> network? Fontsrv and gitsrv would be immediate beneficiaries.
> 
> Just run it like,
> 
> fontsrv -s 'tcp!192.168.9.2!1500'
> 
> and I've no idea what gitsrv is.

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* Re: Posix implementation of Plan 9 cpu(1) (Was: [9fans] Command to set samterm label)
  2021-07-21 15:11         ` hiro
@ 2021-07-21 16:08           ` Dan Cross
  2021-07-21 16:16             ` Xiao-Yong Jin
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 17+ messages in thread
From: Dan Cross @ 2021-07-21 16:08 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 9fans

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1278 bytes --]

On Wed, Jul 21, 2021 at 11:12 AM hiro <23hiro@gmail.com> wrote:

> if i want to serve files from a linux, i sometimes run drawterm on the
> linux, export stuff to an /srv and then access that from the other
> side.
>
> theoretically you can automate that also from the other side, make
> some script for the /srv stuff, and run it from 9front via ssh via
> drawterm:
>
> ssh linuxpc drawterm -c srvdev.rc
>
> yes it's a lot of back and forth, but ssh only is needed for running
> the process, the data afterwards can use 9p directly.
>

What's the difference between that and using something like u9fs?

        - Dan C.

On 7/21/21, Xiao-Yong Jin <meta.jxy@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> On Jul 20, 2021, at 10:52 PM, Lucio De Re <lucio.dere@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> what would
> >> it take to serve 9P on Posix (in P9P, in other words) over the
> >> network? Fontsrv and gitsrv would be immediate beneficiaries.
> >
> > Just run it like,
> >
> > fontsrv -s 'tcp!192.168.9.2!1500'
> >
> > and I've no idea what gitsrv is.

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* Re: Posix implementation of Plan 9 cpu(1) (Was: [9fans] Command to set samterm label)
  2021-07-21 16:08           ` Dan Cross
@ 2021-07-21 16:16             ` Xiao-Yong Jin
  2021-07-21 16:42               ` Dan Cross
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 17+ messages in thread
From: Xiao-Yong Jin @ 2021-07-21 16:16 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 9fans

> On Jul 21, 2021, at 11:08 AM, Dan Cross <crossd@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> ssh linuxpc drawterm -c srvdev.rc
> 
> yes it's a lot of back and forth, but ssh only is needed for running
> the process, the data afterwards can use 9p directly.
> 
> What's the difference between that and using something like u9fs?

auth?

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* Re: Posix implementation of Plan 9 cpu(1) (Was: [9fans] Command to set samterm label)
  2021-07-21 16:16             ` Xiao-Yong Jin
@ 2021-07-21 16:42               ` Dan Cross
  2021-07-21 17:08                 ` Xiao-Yong Jin
  2021-07-21 17:41                 ` hiro
  0 siblings, 2 replies; 17+ messages in thread
From: Dan Cross @ 2021-07-21 16:42 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 9fans

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On Wed, Jul 21, 2021 at 12:17 PM Xiao-Yong Jin <meta.jxy@gmail.com> wrote:

> > On Jul 21, 2021, at 11:08 AM, Dan Cross <crossd@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > ssh linuxpc drawterm -c srvdev.rc
> > >
> > > yes it's a lot of back and forth, but ssh only is needed for running
> > > the process, the data afterwards can use 9p directly.
> >
> > What's the difference between that and using something like u9fs?
>
> auth?
>

This is using ssh to attach to the Linux machine to import it's filesystem
into the plan9 namespace? Wouldn't authenticating from plan9 to Linux over
SSH be independent of drawterm vs u9fs?

        - Dan C.

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* Re: Posix implementation of Plan 9 cpu(1) (Was: [9fans] Command to set samterm label)
  2021-07-21 16:42               ` Dan Cross
@ 2021-07-21 17:08                 ` Xiao-Yong Jin
  2021-07-21 17:16                   ` Dan Cross
  2021-07-21 17:41                 ` hiro
  1 sibling, 1 reply; 17+ messages in thread
From: Xiao-Yong Jin @ 2021-07-21 17:08 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 9fans

> On Jul 21, 2021, at 11:42 AM, Dan Cross <crossd@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> On Wed, Jul 21, 2021 at 12:17 PM Xiao-Yong Jin <meta.jxy@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Jul 21, 2021, at 11:08 AM, Dan Cross <crossd@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > ssh linuxpc drawterm -c srvdev.rc
> > >
> > > yes it's a lot of back and forth, but ssh only is needed for running
> > > the process, the data afterwards can use 9p directly.
> > 
> > What's the difference between that and using something like u9fs?
> 
> auth?
> 
> This is using ssh to attach to the Linux machine to import it's filesystem into the plan9 namespace? Wouldn't authenticating from plan9 to Linux over SSH be independent of drawterm vs u9fs?

Drawterm does the proper auth and connect to the plan9 system.
U9fs needs plan9 srv to auth and connect to it.

If you are running a plan9 system, you probably have your auth
setup.  If you have access to a posix system, you probably have ssh
setup and you have access as a normal user, and that enables you
to do ssh and drawterm back.  No additional setup required.

U9fs, on the contrary, states

          It is typically invoked on a Unix machine by
          inetd with its standard input and output connected to a net-
          work connection, typically TCP on an Ethernet.  It typically
          runs as user root and multiplexes access to multiple Plan 9
          clients over the single wire.  It assumes Plan 9 uids match
          Unix login names, and changes to the corresponding Unix
          effective uid when processing requests.

I'm not going to run this and listen on a public interface even if
it does not run as root.

There are issues with the auth method that u9fs uses, which I'm not
going to discuss here.
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* Re: Posix implementation of Plan 9 cpu(1) (Was: [9fans] Command to set samterm label)
  2021-07-21 17:08                 ` Xiao-Yong Jin
@ 2021-07-21 17:16                   ` Dan Cross
  2021-07-21 17:31                     ` Xiao-Yong Jin
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 17+ messages in thread
From: Dan Cross @ 2021-07-21 17:16 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 9fans

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 2294 bytes --]

On Wed, Jul 21, 2021 at 1:09 PM Xiao-Yong Jin <meta.jxy@gmail.com> wrote:

> > On Jul 21, 2021, at 11:42 AM, Dan Cross <crossd@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > On Wed, Jul 21, 2021 at 12:17 PM Xiao-Yong Jin <meta.jxy@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > > On Jul 21, 2021, at 11:08 AM, Dan Cross <crossd@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > ssh linuxpc drawterm -c srvdev.rc
> > > >
> > > > yes it's a lot of back and forth, but ssh only is needed for running
> > > > the process, the data afterwards can use 9p directly.
> > >
> > > What's the difference between that and using something like u9fs?
> >
> > auth?
> >
> > This is using ssh to attach to the Linux machine to import it's
> filesystem into the plan9 namespace? Wouldn't authenticating from plan9 to
> Linux over SSH be independent of drawterm vs u9fs?
>
> Drawterm does the proper auth and connect to the plan9 system.
> U9fs needs plan9 srv to auth and connect to it.
>
> If you are running a plan9 system, you probably have your auth
> setup.  If you have access to a posix system, you probably have ssh
> setup and you have access as a normal user, and that enables you
> to do ssh and drawterm back.  No additional setup required.
>
> U9fs, on the contrary, states
>
>           It is typically invoked on a Unix machine by
>           inetd with its standard input and output connected to a net-
>           work connection, typically TCP on an Ethernet.  It typically
>           runs as user root and multiplexes access to multiple Plan 9
>           clients over the single wire.  It assumes Plan 9 uids match
>           Unix login names, and changes to the corresponding Unix
>           effective uid when processing requests.
>
> I'm not going to run this and listen on a public interface even if
> it does not run as root.
>
> There are issues with the auth method that u9fs uses, which I'm not
> going to discuss here.


Nothing prevents you from invoking u9fs over an SSH connection; one needn't
run it from inetd, and I doubt anyone has in 20 years.

        - Dan C.

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* Re: Posix implementation of Plan 9 cpu(1) (Was: [9fans] Command to set samterm label)
  2021-07-21 17:16                   ` Dan Cross
@ 2021-07-21 17:31                     ` Xiao-Yong Jin
  2021-07-21 17:57                       ` Dan Cross
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 17+ messages in thread
From: Xiao-Yong Jin @ 2021-07-21 17:31 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 9fans

> On Jul 21, 2021, at 12:16 PM, Dan Cross <crossd@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Nothing prevents you from invoking u9fs over an SSH connection; one needn't run it from inetd, and I doubt anyone has in 20 years.

You are right.  In that case, the only difference is just that,
citing hiro,

        yes it's a lot of back and forth, but ssh only is needed for running
        the process, the data afterwards can use 9p directly.


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* Re: Posix implementation of Plan 9 cpu(1) (Was: [9fans] Command to set samterm label)
  2021-07-21 16:42               ` Dan Cross
  2021-07-21 17:08                 ` Xiao-Yong Jin
@ 2021-07-21 17:41                 ` hiro
  1 sibling, 0 replies; 17+ messages in thread
From: hiro @ 2021-07-21 17:41 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 9fans

> This is using ssh to attach to the Linux machine to import it's filesystem
> into the plan9 namespace? Wouldn't authenticating from plan9 to Linux over
> SSH be independent of drawterm vs u9fs?

yes, if you only need files from the filesystem ssh might be
sufficient protection.
also, with additional use of sshnet you're not missing out against
drawterm's /net either.
so yes, for many things it can be equivalent.

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* Re: Posix implementation of Plan 9 cpu(1) (Was: [9fans] Command to set samterm label)
  2021-07-21 17:31                     ` Xiao-Yong Jin
@ 2021-07-21 17:57                       ` Dan Cross
  2021-07-21 18:09                         ` hiro
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 17+ messages in thread
From: Dan Cross @ 2021-07-21 17:57 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 9fans

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1328 bytes --]

On Wed, Jul 21, 2021 at 1:32 PM Xiao-Yong Jin <meta.jxy@gmail.com> wrote:

> > On Jul 21, 2021, at 12:16 PM, Dan Cross <crossd@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > Nothing prevents you from invoking u9fs over an SSH connection; one
> needn't run it from inetd, and I doubt anyone has in 20 years.
>
> You are right.  In that case, the only difference is just that,
> citing hiro,
>
>         yes it's a lot of back and forth, but ssh only is needed for
> running
>         the process, the data afterwards can use 9p directly.


It's unclear what that's supposed to mean. There's obviously still a
transport involved; in one case, that's over (I presume) TLS over a TCP
connection owned by drawterm, in the other, it's a bitstream running over
the SSH protocol over TCP. In the former case, if the drawterm process on
the Linux side dies for whatever reason, your imported resources disappear.
In the latter, if the sshd or u9fs die, same.

Overall, this seems like abusing drawterm to do what u9fs (or other,
similar userspace 9P servers) was (were) intended to do.

        - Dan C.

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* Re: Posix implementation of Plan 9 cpu(1) (Was: [9fans] Command to set samterm label)
  2021-07-21 17:57                       ` Dan Cross
@ 2021-07-21 18:09                         ` hiro
  2021-07-21 18:11                           ` hiro
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 17+ messages in thread
From: hiro @ 2021-07-21 18:09 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 9fans

it's still equivalent, obviously you can start drawterm in the
background or in some persistent virtual terminal emulator.

and yes, both drawterm and ssh will use TCP below, the only difference
in the stack for the actual data would be that instead of SSH you
would have TLS for encryption.

On 7/21/21, Dan Cross <crossd@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Wed, Jul 21, 2021 at 1:32 PM Xiao-Yong Jin <meta.jxy@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> > On Jul 21, 2021, at 12:16 PM, Dan Cross <crossd@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >
>> > Nothing prevents you from invoking u9fs over an SSH connection; one
>> needn't run it from inetd, and I doubt anyone has in 20 years.
>>
>> You are right.  In that case, the only difference is just that,
>> citing hiro,
>>
>>         yes it's a lot of back and forth, but ssh only is needed for
>> running
>>         the process, the data afterwards can use 9p directly.
> 
> 
> It's unclear what that's supposed to mean. There's obviously still a
> transport involved; in one case, that's over (I presume) TLS over a TCP
> connection owned by drawterm, in the other, it's a bitstream running over
> the SSH protocol over TCP. In the former case, if the drawterm process on
> the Linux side dies for whatever reason, your imported resources disappear.
> In the latter, if the sshd or u9fs die, same.
> 
> Overall, this seems like abusing drawterm to do what u9fs (or other,
> similar userspace 9P servers) was (were) intended to do.
> 
> - Dan C.

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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 17+ messages in thread

* Re: Posix implementation of Plan 9 cpu(1) (Was: [9fans] Command to set samterm label)
  2021-07-21 18:09                         ` hiro
@ 2021-07-21 18:11                           ` hiro
  2021-07-21 21:41                             ` Steve Simon
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 17+ messages in thread
From: hiro @ 2021-07-21 18:11 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 9fans

if you don't already use drawterm anyway for other reasons, and you
only would like to set up ssh, and you already have a working 9p
server for linux (like u9fs), i don't think there's an immediate
benefit in switching to drawterm.

otoh if you already do use drawterm interactively for different
reasons, it is probably nice to know that you can abuse ssh to get the
same environment as exported by drawterm even when you happen to sit
on the wrong side of the pipe sometimes.

it's a bunch of inversions of directions, and it sounds complicated.
but i already have scripts ready for the use of drawterm, so it came
naturally.

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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 17+ messages in thread

* Re: Posix implementation of Plan 9 cpu(1) (Was: [9fans] Command to set samterm label)
  2021-07-21 18:11                           ` hiro
@ 2021-07-21 21:41                             ` Steve Simon
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 17+ messages in thread
From: Steve Simon @ 2021-07-21 21:41 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 9fans


i wrote a cpu like client/server for windows (called dos). 

my code and test environment lived on a microsoft smb server. i ran cifs(1) to get access to this from plan9 and sam.

dos(1) allowed me to start an rc(1) running on win32 in the same directory as my current directory on plan9. it also kept my local /dev/wdir up to date with that on windows - massaging paths as needed.

all this allowed me to bounce between windows and plan9 fairly transparently like cpu(1) would on plan9. i could also plumb files i saw and plan9 would do the right thing.

it should use the cpu(1) protocol but i never got round to it - what i have just works.

my current employer uses Macs rather than windows so this has fallen into disuse.

i am happy to share if anyone has a use for it.

-Steve


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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 17+ messages in thread

end of thread, other threads:[~2021-07-21 21:42 UTC | newest]

Thread overview: 17+ messages (download: mbox.gz / follow: Atom feed)
-- links below jump to the message on this page --
2021-07-19  4:52 Posix implementation of Plan 9 cpu(1) (Was: [9fans] Command to set samterm label) Lucio De Re
2021-07-19  5:20 ` Michael Misch
2021-07-19  7:13   ` Steve Simon
2021-07-21  3:52     ` Lucio De Re
2021-07-21 14:59       ` Xiao-Yong Jin
2021-07-21 15:11         ` hiro
2021-07-21 16:08           ` Dan Cross
2021-07-21 16:16             ` Xiao-Yong Jin
2021-07-21 16:42               ` Dan Cross
2021-07-21 17:08                 ` Xiao-Yong Jin
2021-07-21 17:16                   ` Dan Cross
2021-07-21 17:31                     ` Xiao-Yong Jin
2021-07-21 17:57                       ` Dan Cross
2021-07-21 18:09                         ` hiro
2021-07-21 18:11                           ` hiro
2021-07-21 21:41                             ` Steve Simon
2021-07-21 17:41                 ` hiro

9fans - fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs

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