[9fans] The utility of a chording pad

[9fans] The utility of a chording pad

[john]

So I've spent a lot of time today watching recordings of Engelbart's
1968 demonstration (http://sloan.stanford.edu/mousesite/1968Demo.html),
and I really like the chording pad he has over on the left of his keyboard.
It's the same type of thing that shows up again in the Xerox Alto.
I'm just wondering, as Plan 9 users and developers, what would you do
with such a thing in the environment? Engelbart's device apparently
let you input 31 different chords, which I'd say isn't sufficient to replace
a keyboard but is still pretty impressive; with such a thing, would you perhaps
bind the chords to perform acme commands, for instance? We've already
got mouse chording, and it's pretty slick; add some more chording in,
say hit the first two keys in order to delete the current frame in acme.
Of course, if we were to get a chord pad that could produce enough
combinations for all alphanumeric characters, it could be used to replace
the keyboard.

I'd just like to get some opinions, see what you think of chording devices
and what potential utility they could have in Plan 9.



John

Re: [9fans] The utility of a chording pad

[Lucio De Re]

> I'd just like to get some opinions, see what you think of chording devices
> and what potential utility they could have in Plan 9.

If I recall correctly Rob Pike's comments in this forum a long time
ago apropos the issue of customisation, I would suggest that such a
chording pad would be more frustrating than useful.  It goes almost
without saying that the generality of such a device lends itself to
insane re-configuration by each user, with dramatic, if potentially
humorous results.

Quite frankly, I'm sure that there is at least one improvement over
the traditional keyboard that is simply waiting to be discovered, but
the actual discovery may be a long way away.  I believe that T.9 and
even the odd input matrix tool I added to my Visor (I forget the name,
right now) are a form of progress, but the actual solution may be
totally different still.

Consider that there are twelve function keys on the conventional
keyboard and Plan 9 uses none of them.  Nevermind the new keyboards
with the full Jumbo Jet console on them.

++L

Re: [9fans] The utility of a chording pad

[Jack Johnson]

On 8/5/07, Lucio De Re <lucio@proxima.alt.za> wrote:
> > I'd just like to get some opinions, see what you think of chording devices
> > and what potential utility they could have in Plan 9.
>
> If I recall correctly Rob Pike's comments in this forum a long time
> ago apropos the issue of customisation, I would suggest that such a
> chording pad would be more frustrating than useful.  It goes almost
> without saying that the generality of such a device lends itself to
> insane re-configuration by each user, with dramatic, if potentially
> humorous results.

Though, interesting to think about in a modern context.  Historically,
the result of the chords might have been done in hardware, but if you
did it in software then there would be only training issues to contend
with, as with nearly every modern OS you have some way to identify
yourself to the workstation and set up your session.

In a Plan 9 environment, you should just be able to wander up to a
workstation, log in, and have your chord customization follow you
around, just like any other setting.

-Jack

Re: [9fans] The utility of a chording pad

[Gabriel Diaz]

hello

i think one important thing about plan9 chords  it's how easy they are
to execute and remember, too may commands or complex combinations will
be too difficult to use i think.

gabi


On 8/5/07, john@csplan9.rit.edu <john@csplan9.rit.edu> wrote:
> So I've spent a lot of time today watching recordings of Engelbart's
> 1968 demonstration (http://sloan.stanford.edu/mousesite/1968Demo.html),
> and I really like the chording pad he has over on the left of his keyboard.
> It's the same type of thing that shows up again in the Xerox Alto.
> I'm just wondering, as Plan 9 users and developers, what would you do
> with such a thing in the environment? Engelbart's device apparently
> let you input 31 different chords, which I'd say isn't sufficient to replace
> a keyboard but is still pretty impressive; with such a thing, would you perhaps
> bind the chords to perform acme commands, for instance? We've already
> got mouse chording, and it's pretty slick; add some more chording in,
> say hit the first two keys in order to delete the current frame in acme.
> Of course, if we were to get a chord pad that could produce enough
> combinations for all alphanumeric characters, it could be used to replace
> the keyboard.
>
> I'd just like to get some opinions, see what you think of chording devices
> and what potential utility they could have in Plan 9.
>
>
>
> John
>
>

Re: [9fans] The utility of a chording pad

[Eric Van Hensbergen]

On 8/4/07, john@csplan9.rit.edu <john@csplan9.rit.edu> wrote:
> So I've spent a lot of time today watching recordings of Engelbart's
> 1968 demonstration (http://sloan.stanford.edu/mousesite/1968Demo.html),
> and I really like the chording pad he has over on the left of his keyboard.
> It's the same type of thing that shows up again in the Xerox Alto.
> I'm just wondering, as Plan 9 users and developers, what would you do
> with such a thing in the environment? Engelbart's device apparently
> let you input 31 different chords, which I'd say isn't sufficient to replace
> a keyboard but is still pretty impressive; with such a thing, would you perhaps
> bind the chords to perform acme commands, for instance? We've already
> got mouse chording, and it's pretty slick; add some more chording in,
> say hit the first two keys in order to delete the current frame in acme.
> Of course, if we were to get a chord pad that could produce enough
> combinations for all alphanumeric characters, it could be used to replace
> the keyboard.
>
> I'd just like to get some opinions, see what you think of chording devices
> and what potential utility they could have in Plan 9.
>
I always thought it'd be cool to hack up something for
http://catalog.belkin.com/IWCatProductPage.process?Product_Id=157024
to do left handed chording and keep the right hand on the mouse.

I bought one and played around a bit, but was unsatisfied with my
ability to actually detect chords without writing a proper driver
IIRC.

I experimented a bunch with different chording setups a decade ago and
found most unsatisfactory, but half-keyboard chordic setups seem to be
quite easy to pick up - the problem with the Nostromo was that it was
like 2 keys short of being a proper half keyboard so you needed more
than one meta-key ... which was offputting.   Plus no numbers made it
kinda hard to code with.

       -eric

Re: [9fans] The utility of a chording pad

[erik quanstrom]

> If I recall correctly Rob Pike's comments in this forum a long time
> ago apropos the issue of customisation, I would suggest that such a
> chording pad would be more frustrating than useful.  It goes almost
> without saying that the generality of such a device lends itself to
> insane re-configuration by each user, with dramatic, if potentially
> humorous results.

i think it's hard to say without doing an experiment.  there is no
reason one needs to use all the combinations.  so it would be
interesting to add a forth button.  perhaps one could disambiguate
between Look and Open.  (how many times have you had to play
tricks because there is a symbol wumpus and file wumpus?)

> Consider that there are twelve function keys on the conventional
> keyboard and Plan 9 uses none of them.  Nevermind the new keyboards
> with the full Jumbo Jet console on them.

that's because they're not standard.  you can use them if you map them
with /dev/kbmap.

cpu% cat fkeys
0	59	'☺
0	60	'☹

☺ erik

Re: [9fans] The utility of a chording pad

[Lucio De Re]

> that's because they're not standard.  you can use them if you map them
> with /dev/kbmap.
> 
> cpu% cat fkeys
> 0	59	'☺
> 0	60	'☹

For some definition of "standard", really.  The thing is that the
letter "a" is a clear concept no one is likely to argue with (and even
there, different keyboard layouts throw a spanner in the works, but at
least one assumes the keyboard has clear labels in place), but using
F1-F2-F3 as mouse buttons is a totally different idea and needs to
gain critical mass (think F1 as the Help key) before developers can
safely commit to it.

Chording itself is not at fault, although Gabriel is perfectly right
when suggesting that remembering more than a few combinations becomes
very difficult.  What is problematic is assigning the type of meaning
to each chord that meets with mass approval.  Given that needs vary
and some chords are bound to be easier than others, this is an
unlikely expectation.  Add the option to fall back to a keyboard
shortcut and the intent is readily defeated.

What may assist a lot would be visual hints, where the mouse pointer
or the colour of the highlight reflects the status of the chord.  But
I doubt that one would come up with a consensus on such meanings where
there are more than a few like in RIO or ACME.

++L

Re: [9fans] The utility of a chording pad

[Lucio De Re]

> For some definition of "standard", really.  The thing is that the
> letter "a" is a clear concept no one is likely to argue with (and even
> there, different keyboard layouts throw a spanner in the works, but at
> least one assumes the keyboard has clear labels in place), but using
> F1-F2-F3 as mouse buttons is a totally different idea and needs to
> gain critical mass (think F1 as the Help key) before developers can
> safely commit to it.

Forgive me for following up my own mail.  What struck me now is that
my particular dissatisfaction with data entry devices is that I need
to change mode for tasks that are not particularly differentiable.  In
a nutshell, I hate taking my hands off the keyboard to move the cursor
and I hate having to use the keyboard to execute an operation.

If one could figure out how to enter keystrokes entirely with one
hand, then the mouse would be considerably more useful.  Another
interesting speculation may be to have two mouse devices (I have no
idea yet whether "mice" is the right plural) acting in some sort of
combined mode.

But I'm no expert, just a dissatisfied customer that can't even touch
type and has little prospect of learning after many years of bad
habits.

++L

Re: [9fans] The utility of a chording pad

[Steve Simon]

how about one of these whit a mouse-ball underneath?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microwriter

-Steve

Re: [9fans] The utility of a chording pad

[Lucio De Re]

> how about one of these whit a mouse-ball underneath?
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microwriter

Well, that logically takes you to 

	http://www.infogrip.com/product_view.asp?RecordNumber=12

(at least, that's what Firefox claims) and you wonder how one can
justify paying USD349 for such a thing.  Or USD199, if you go for a
cheaper option.  Still extremely expensive, compared with consumable
keyboards (do they cost as much as USD10?).

++L

Re: [9fans] The utility of a chording pad

[Skip Tavakkolian]

> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microwriter

or maybe a braille cord glove

Re: [9fans] The utility of a chording pad

[maht-9fans]

This is a really old non-posted mail I found in my drafts folder :

> that's because they're not standard.  you can use them if you map them
> with /dev/kbmap.
>   
I can't remember the exact command from the time but on my BBC Computer 
we have a bunch a function keys

echo 'some shell command' > /env/f11

and then pressing f11 would  be like `{cat /env/f11} > /dev/cons

I'd like that now I think :)