Re: [9fans] page as a presentation tool

Re: [9fans] page as a presentation tool

[Russ Cox]

> I am currently using the sequence
>
> 	latex (prosper.cls) -> dvips -> pspdf -> xpdf
>
> for both classroom lectures and conference talks.  It works well
> enough, though a few things annoy me.  It would be nice to switch
> the platform from FreeBSD to plan9, since I would like to edit in
> sam and the UNIX sam is rather broken.  I ran into a bit of a

I'm using the UNIX sam to write this.  What's broken about it?

> problem, however.  Page -w clips the pdf version of the slides.
> I don't know if this is a bug in page or if the rest of my toolchain
> is producing broken pdf and xpdf is just doing a better job of
> coping.  Page does a fine job on the PostScript version except that
> everything is rotated 90 degrees.  This is the classic example of the
> page orientation problem, viz. http://allendowney.com/orientation/.
> For various reasons the solution suggested there doesn't work for
> me.

I've struggled with this a bunch and cannot seem to make ghostscript
and page cooperate into doing the right rotations in all cases.

> Is anyone using page for presentations and if so what are you using
> to generate the slides?  I am willing to consider troff-based solutions,
> but since the conference talks are all on papers written in latex there
> is some advantage to sticking to latex.  In any case it is far from
> clear to me how to teach troff about other aspect ratios without
> just hacking the source.

I've done troff, but if you're happy with latex I'd stick to latex.
You really have to be comfortable digging deep into the guts of troff
to get reasonable-looking output.  I have awk scripts that postprocess
the postscript to set the right bounding information.

Russ

[9fans] page as a presentation tool

[John Stalker]

I am currently using the sequence

	latex (prosper.cls) -> dvips -> pspdf -> xpdf

for both classroom lectures and conference talks.  It works well
enough, though a few things annoy me.  It would be nice to switch
the platform from FreeBSD to plan9, since I would like to edit in
sam and the UNIX sam is rather broken.  I ran into a bit of a
problem, however.  Page -w clips the pdf version of the slides.
I don't know if this is a bug in page or if the rest of my toolchain
is producing broken pdf and xpdf is just doing a better job of
coping.  Page does a fine job on the PostScript version except that
everything is rotated 90 degrees.  This is the classic example of the
page orientation problem, viz. http://allendowney.com/orientation/.
For various reasons the solution suggested there doesn't work for
me.

Is anyone using page for presentations and if so what are you using
to generate the slides?  I am willing to consider troff-based solutions,
but since the conference talks are all on papers written in latex there
is some advantage to sticking to latex.  In any case it is far from
clear to me how to teach troff about other aspect ratios without
just hacking the source.
--
John Stalker
Department of Mathematics
Princeton University
(609)258-6469

Re: [9fans] page as a presentation tool

[Scott Schwartz]

| sam and the UNIX sam is rather broken.

How so?  It's been ok for me.

Re: [9fans] page as a presentation tool

[Fco.J.Ballesteros]

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I used to use LaTeX for slides, but I'm using troff for that since
one or two years ago and it works very nicely with page for
presentations.

I had to find a macro package for slides but that was all.
If you want to give troff a try for your slides, drop me a line and I'll
try to package what I use.

hth

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From: "Russ Cox" <rsc@swtch.com>
To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu
Subject: Re: [9fans] page as a presentation tool
Date: Tue, 04 Nov 2003 19:08:03 -0500
Message-ID: <E1AHBDW-0008pX-CD@t40.swtch.com>

> I am currently using the sequence
>
> 	latex (prosper.cls) -> dvips -> pspdf -> xpdf
>
> for both classroom lectures and conference talks.  It works well
> enough, though a few things annoy me.  It would be nice to switch
> the platform from FreeBSD to plan9, since I would like to edit in
> sam and the UNIX sam is rather broken.  I ran into a bit of a

I'm using the UNIX sam to write this.  What's broken about it?

> problem, however.  Page -w clips the pdf version of the slides.
> I don't know if this is a bug in page or if the rest of my toolchain
> is producing broken pdf and xpdf is just doing a better job of
> coping.  Page does a fine job on the PostScript version except that
> everything is rotated 90 degrees.  This is the classic example of the
> page orientation problem, viz. http://allendowney.com/orientation/.
> For various reasons the solution suggested there doesn't work for
> me.

I've struggled with this a bunch and cannot seem to make ghostscript
and page cooperate into doing the right rotations in all cases.

> Is anyone using page for presentations and if so what are you using
> to generate the slides?  I am willing to consider troff-based solutions,
> but since the conference talks are all on papers written in latex there
> is some advantage to sticking to latex.  In any case it is far from
> clear to me how to teach troff about other aspect ratios without
> just hacking the source.

I've done troff, but if you're happy with latex I'd stick to latex.
You really have to be comfortable digging deep into the guts of troff
to get reasonable-looking output.  I have awk scripts that postprocess
the postscript to set the right bounding information.

Russ

Re: [9fans] page as a presentation tool

[Russ Cox]

> I should say I am using whatever version is in the ports tree
> on FreeBSD.  Maybe there is a better version.  I have noticed
> two ways in which it differs.  One is that undo doesn't
> restore the dot.  This is pretty annoying since I like to
> use succesive refinement to select text and I make a lot of
> mistakes.  The other is the 'x' doesn't work quite as
> advertised in the paper.  The relevant passage is
>
> 	Sam uses a two-pass algorithm for making changes,
> 	and treats each file as a database against which
> 	transactions are registered. Changes are not made
> 	directly to the contents. Instead, when a command
> 	is started, a `mark' containing a sequence number
> 	is placed in the transcript Buffer, and each change
> 	made to the file, either an insertion or deletion or
> 	a change to the file name, is appended to the end of
> 	the transcript. When the command is complete, the
> 	transcript is rewound to the mark and applied to
> 	the contents.
>
> 	One reason for separating evaluation from application
> 	in this way is to simplify tracking the addresses of
> 	changes made in the middle of a long sequence. The
> 	two-pass algorithm also allows all changes to apply
> 	to the original data: no change can affect another
> 	change made in the same command. This is particularly
> 	important when evaluating an x command because it
> 	prevents regular expression matches from stumbling
> 	over changes made earlier in the execution.
>
> I haven't looked at the source to see whether UNIX sam also uses
> the two pass algorithm, but it is certainly stumbling over changes
> made earlier in the execution.

The one at http://pdos.lcs.mit.edu/~rsc/software/plan9
builds from the current Plan 9 sources, which are really
not very far from the Unix ones.  Undo definitely does
restore dot, though I wish samterm scrolled so you could
see it.  And x seems to work, though I can't imagine why
it would be too different from the Unix one.

Russ

Re: [9fans] page as a presentation tool

[John Stalker]

I should say I am using whatever version is in the ports tree
on FreeBSD.  Maybe there is a better version.  I have noticed
two ways in which it differs.  One is that undo doesn't
restore the dot.  This is pretty annoying since I like to
use succesive refinement to select text and I make a lot of
mistakes.  The other is the 'x' doesn't work quite as
advertised in the paper.  The relevant passage is

	Sam uses a two-pass algorithm for making changes,
	and treats each file as a database against which
	transactions are registered. Changes are not made
	directly to the contents. Instead, when a command
	is started, a `mark' containing a sequence number
	is placed in the transcript Buffer, and each change
	made to the file, either an insertion or deletion or
	a change to the file name, is appended to the end of
	the transcript. When the command is complete, the
	transcript is rewound to the mark and applied to
	the contents.

	One reason for separating evaluation from application
	in this way is to simplify tracking the addresses of
	changes made in the middle of a long sequence. The
	two-pass algorithm also allows all changes to apply
	to the original data: no change can affect another
	change made in the same command. This is particularly
	important when evaluating an x command because it
	prevents regular expression matches from stumbling
	over changes made earlier in the execution.

I haven't looked at the source to see whether UNIX sam also uses
the two pass algorithm, but it is certainly stumbling over changes
made earlier in the execution.

> | sam and the UNIX sam is rather broken.
>
> How so?  It's been ok for me.
>

--
John Stalker
Department of Mathematics
Princeton University
(609)258-6469

Re: [9fans] page as a presentation tool

[John Stalker]

> > I should say I am using whatever version is in the ports tree
> > on FreeBSD.  Maybe there is a better version.  I have noticed
> > two ways in which it differs.  One is that undo doesn't
> > restore the dot.  This is pretty annoying since I like to
> > use succesive refinement to select text and I make a lot of
> > mistakes.  The other is the 'x' doesn't work quite as
> > advertised in the paper.  The relevant passage is...

>
> The one at http://pdos.lcs.mit.edu/~rsc/software/plan9
> builds from the current Plan 9 sources, which are really
> not very far from the Unix ones.  Undo definitely does
> restore dot, though I wish samterm scrolled so you could
> see it.  And x seems to work, though I can't imagine why
> it would be too different from the Unix one.
>
> Russ
>

Thanks.  That solves the problem with 'u'.  The problem with 'x',
I fear, is my own misunderstanding of sam's syntax.  sam doesn't
allow a space between 'x' and its regular expression argument, though
it is quite happy to allow one between 'c' and its regular expression
argument.  Since this first bit me on the UNIX version I assumed it
was a problem with the UNIX version.

--
John Stalker
Department of Mathematics
Princeton University
(609)258-6469

Re: [9fans] page as a presentation tool

[Rob Pike]

> Thanks.  That solves the problem with 'u'.  The problem with 'x',
> I fear, is my own misunderstanding of sam's syntax.  sam doesn't
> allow a space between 'x' and its regular expression argument, though
> it is quite happy to allow one between 'c' and its regular expression
> argument.  Since this first bit me on the UNIX version I assumed it
> was a problem with the UNIX version.

'c' doesn't have a regular expression argument.  but anyway, i know
what you're talking about.

there's a notational shorthand that may be the source of your confusion.

x/foo/ command

looks for foo and runs the command.  one useful value of foo is lines:

x/.*\n?/ command

this is so common that it's given a shorthand: an absent pattern:

x command

thus one may write

x g/bar/  command

to run the command on every line containing bar.  but,

x /foo/ command

means for every line, run

	/foo/ command

which isn't what you want at all.  obviously, this is a huge semantic
swing for the measly addition of a space. mea culpa.

-rob

Re: [9fans] page as a presentation tool

[jpc]

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hi-

i would also be interested in trying what you use for presentations.
if you do send out what you have please send me a copy also.

john cummings
cummij@rpi.edu

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I used to use LaTeX for slides, but I'm using troff for that since
one or two years ago and it works very nicely with page for
presentations.

I had to find a macro package for slides but that was all.
If you want to give troff a try for your slides, drop me a line and I'll
try to package what I use.

hth

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From: "Russ Cox" <rsc@swtch.com>
To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu
Subject: Re: [9fans] page as a presentation tool
Date: Tue, 04 Nov 2003 19:08:03 -0500
Message-ID: <E1AHBDW-0008pX-CD@t40.swtch.com>

> I am currently using the sequence
>
> 	latex (prosper.cls) -> dvips -> pspdf -> xpdf
>
> for both classroom lectures and conference talks.  It works well
> enough, though a few things annoy me.  It would be nice to switch
> the platform from FreeBSD to plan9, since I would like to edit in
> sam and the UNIX sam is rather broken.  I ran into a bit of a

I'm using the UNIX sam to write this.  What's broken about it?

> problem, however.  Page -w clips the pdf version of the slides.
> I don't know if this is a bug in page or if the rest of my toolchain
> is producing broken pdf and xpdf is just doing a better job of
> coping.  Page does a fine job on the PostScript version except that
> everything is rotated 90 degrees.  This is the classic example of the
> page orientation problem, viz. http://allendowney.com/orientation/.
> For various reasons the solution suggested there doesn't work for
> me.

I've struggled with this a bunch and cannot seem to make ghostscript
and page cooperate into doing the right rotations in all cases.

> Is anyone using page for presentations and if so what are you using
> to generate the slides?  I am willing to consider troff-based solutions,
> but since the conference talks are all on papers written in latex there
> is some advantage to sticking to latex.  In any case it is far from
> clear to me how to teach troff about other aspect ratios without
> just hacking the source.

I've done troff, but if you're happy with latex I'd stick to latex.
You really have to be comfortable digging deep into the guts of troff
to get reasonable-looking output.  I have awk scripts that postprocess
the postscript to set the right bounding information.

Russ

Re: [9fans] page as a presentation tool

[John Stalker]

> 'c' doesn't have a regular expression argument.  but anyway, i know
> what you're talking about.

Yes, I realized that shortly after sending it.  If only mailers came
with an undo command!

> there's a notational shorthand that may be the source of your confusion.
>
> x/foo/ command
>
> looks for foo and runs the command.  one useful value of foo is lines:
>
> x/.*\n?/ command
>
> this is so common that it's given a shorthand: an absent pattern:
>
> x command
>
> thus one may write
>
> x g/bar/  command
>
> to run the command on every line containing bar.  but,
>
> x /foo/ command
>
> means for every line, run
>
> 	/foo/ command
>
> which isn't what you want at all.  obviously, this is a huge semantic
> swing for the measly addition of a space. mea culpa.
>
> -rob

It could be much worse.  I once had an unusable system for about 24 hours
because of an extra space in an install script for a program I don't
even use.  In fact it was that experience which convinced me to wipe linux
from my hard disk.
--
John Stalker
Department of Mathematics
Princeton University
(609)258-6469

Re: [9fans] page as a presentation tool

[okamoto]

> Page does a fine job on the PostScript version except that
> everything is rotated 90 degrees.  

The gdevplan9.c is just a remake of generic printer device of ghostscript,
which means landscape image will be displayed vertical with longer
direction. ☺

Kenji