[9fans] Broadcom drivers, yet again

[9fans] Broadcom drivers, yet again

[Pietro Gagliardi]

Hello. Does anyone know if there are ANY Broadcom BCM4401 drivers out  
yet so I can connect to the Internet from my Plan 9 box downstairs.  
Thanks.

Re: [9fans] Broadcom drivers, yet again

[erik quanstrom]

> Hello. Does anyone know if there are ANY Broadcom BCM4401 drivers out  
> yet so I can connect to the Internet from my Plan 9 box downstairs.  
> Thanks.

nope.  sorry.  still trying to get enough documentation
to write 'em.  we have a couple of projects here that
could use bcm chips, but so far they have only given
me access to glossy sales brochures.  i haven't seen
a single register yet.

- erik

Re: [9fans] Broadcom drivers, yet again

[Pietro Gagliardi]

Maybe someone could retrofit this?

http://mailman.3ti.be/pipermail/clusterknoppix/2003-September/ 
000084.html
Direct link: http://mailman.3ti.be/pipermail/clusterknoppix/ 
attachments/20030923/8ebb3ddf/bcm4400-1.0.1.tar.obj

On Oct 21, 2007, at 8:44 AM, erik quanstrom wrote:

>> Hello. Does anyone know if there are ANY Broadcom BCM4401 drivers out
>> yet so I can connect to the Internet from my Plan 9 box downstairs.
>> Thanks.
>
> nope.  sorry.  still trying to get enough documentation
> to write 'em.  we have a couple of projects here that
> could use bcm chips, but so far they have only given
> me access to glossy sales brochures.  i haven't seen
> a single register yet.
>
> - erik
>

Re: [9fans] Broadcom drivers, yet again

[erik quanstrom]

> Maybe someone could retrofit this?
> 
> http://mailman.3ti.be/pipermail/clusterknoppix/2003-September/ 
> 000084.html
> Direct link: http://mailman.3ti.be/pipermail/clusterknoppix/ 
> attachments/20030923/8ebb3ddf/bcm4400-1.0.1.tar.obj

i'm not going to do that.  especially for a product that i've
got to stand behind.

i've written drivers for hardware with linux source and no specs.
although that particular hardware was beautifully designed, and
i had full vendor support, it was still pretty difficult without proper
documentation.

from what i understand, the broadcom chips are quirky and have
a long list of errata.  i'm not good enough at guessing what
sweet bits i need to put where to keep a moody thing like that
happy.

sorry.

if you have a desktop motherboard with 1x pcie available,
i'd personally recommend the intel pro 1000/PT.
http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/SearchTools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=2276643&CatId=200
they're about $34.  i have two of them in my cpu server at
home.

- erik

Re: [9fans] Broadcom drivers, yet again

[Steve Simon]

> nope.  sorry.  still trying to get enough documentation
> to write 'em. 

I believe Devon has access to the documention for this chipset
at work but is not allwed to pass it on. I am pretty sure he
said he would be willing to "help" by providing support
and direction to somone else writing a driver.

This may (or may not) be enough to write a driver.

-Steve

Re: [9fans] Broadcom drivers, yet again

[erik quanstrom]

> I believe Devon has access to the documention for this chipset
> at work but is not allwed to pass it on. I am pretty sure he
> said he would be willing to "help" by providing support
> and direction to somone else writing a driver.
> 
> This may (or may not) be enough to write a driver.

not enough for a product.

- erik

Re: [9fans] Broadcom drivers, yet again

[Pietro Gagliardi]

OK, so I'll go get myself this, because I need something with PCI:

http://www.amazon.com/Intel-PILA8460C3BLK-Desktop-Network-Adapter/dp/ 
B000957HZW/ref=sr_1_1/103-5585202-5631020? 
ie=UTF8&s=electronics&qid=1192976576&sr=8-1

On Oct 21, 2007, at 10:06 AM, erik quanstrom wrote:

>> I believe Devon has access to the documention for this chipset
>> at work but is not allwed to pass it on. I am pretty sure he
>> said he would be willing to "help" by providing support
>> and direction to somone else writing a driver.
>>
>> This may (or may not) be enough to write a driver.
>
> not enough for a product.
>
> - erik
>

Re: [9fans] Broadcom drivers, yet again

[erik quanstrom]

> http://www.amazon.com/Intel-PILA8460C3BLK-Desktop-Network-Adapter/dp/B000957HZW/ref=sr_1_1/103-5585202-5631020?ie=UTF8&s=electronics&qid=1192976576&sr=8-1

this card is $30 and does gigabit.  you might find it cheeper at newegg.

http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/SearchTools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=2179555&CatId=200

- erik

Re: [9fans] Broadcom drivers, yet again

[Pietro Gagliardi]

At newegg, not really; I'll go for the link you gave me. Thanks.

On Oct 21, 2007, at 10:30 AM, erik quanstrom wrote:

>> http://www.amazon.com/Intel-PILA8460C3BLK-Desktop-Network-Adapter/ 
>> dp/B000957HZW/ref=sr_1_1/103-5585202-5631020? 
>> ie=UTF8&s=electronics&qid=1192976576&sr=8-1
>
> this card is $30 and does gigabit.  you might find it cheeper at  
> newegg.
>
> http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/SearchTools/item- 
> details.asp?EdpNo=2179555&CatId=200
>
> - erik
>

Re: [9fans] Broadcom drivers, yet again

[Jack Johnson]

On 10/21/07, erik quanstrom <quanstro@quanstro.net> wrote:
> not enough for a product.

This is interesting.  Brad Smith's story about halfway down:

http://www.oreilly.com/pub/a/sysadmin/2006/10/26/openbsd-40.html

-Jack

Re: [9fans] Broadcom drivers, yet again

[Philippe Anel]

Therefore, please Jack, feel free to write this driver.

I agree with Erik, writing a driver without the full documentation is a 
real pain.
And source files are not documentation, because it takes too much time to
read and understand how the hardware has been designed.

Yes, Brad Smith did it ... and he did a great thing, but the question is how
worth it is to do the same boring work when you can buy a fully documented
and working hardware for less than $40 ?

my 2 cents,

Phil;


Jack Johnson a écrit :
> On 10/21/07, erik quanstrom <quanstro@quanstro.net> wrote:
>   
>> not enough for a product.
>>     
>
> This is interesting.  Brad Smith's story about halfway down:
>
> http://www.oreilly.com/pub/a/sysadmin/2006/10/26/openbsd-40.html
>
> -Jack
>
>
>   

Re: [9fans] Broadcom drivers, yet again

[Jack Johnson]

On 10/21/07, Philippe Anel <xigh@free.fr> wrote:
> Yes, Brad Smith did it ... and he did a great thing, but the question is how
> worth it is to do the same boring work when you can buy a fully documented
> and working hardware for less than $40 ?

My point was not to say, "Hey, they did it, so can we."  My point was
to say, "Check out the nightmare they went through building this
particular driver without documentation."

I think many folks are asking about the Broadcom because that's the
most prevalent integrated NIC now.  Buy nearly any Dell and you'll
find one.  Laptop users are screwed in general because they have
limited alternatives on both the wired and the wireless fronts
anymore.  So, though it's nice to say buy something that works (and I
agree), the ongoing struggle is the Chipset of the Week.  If you look
at the archives, ten years ago it was the integrated SCSI Chipset of
the Week, five years ago it was wireless, now it's the Broadcom.

Newbies have an expectation, even with non-commercial software now,
that they can take a random box, pop in a CD, and if they have any
problems it's likely that their display looks like crap and they can't
print (think Linux or Vista).  What might be helpful for our newbies
is to say something like hey, a Dell GX1 through GX260 should work off
the shelf, or an HP/Compaq models L through X but not V, no Sonys,
whatever.  Give everyone some arbitrary measure so when they're
eyeballing a workstation at the store or in the garage or wherever
they don't have to boot it to find out what the integrated chipset is
and whether or not it's supported.

The wiki used to do a better job in this regard, but the problem is a
wooden boat.  Too many models, user pool is too small, vendors change
their chipsets with their underwear.  But, users tend to have just two
questions in this arena: will this work with my hardware, or what
should I buy/find to work with Plan 9?

It would probably be easiest to just say it up front:

"Will Plan 9 work with my hardware?"
"Probably not all of it.  But, your mind only works with 10% of your
brain, so it's not a big deal."
"What hardware should I buy to work with Plan 9?"
"...NIC: Intel PRO/100 or PRO/1000..."
"Hey, I have that already!"
"You just saved $40."

-Jack

Re: [9fans] Broadcom drivers, yet again

[ron minnich]

On 10/22/07, Jack Johnson <knapjack@gmail.com> wrote:

> "Will Plan 9 work with my hardware?"
> "Probably not all of it.  But, your mind only works with 10% of your
> brain, so it's not a big deal."
> "What hardware should I buy to work with Plan 9?"
> "...NIC: Intel PRO/100 or PRO/1000..."
> "Hey, I have that already!"
> "You just saved $40."
>

yeah, it would save some effort for me, I am trying to buy new
hardware and a list would be helpful.

ron

Re: [9fans] Broadcom drivers, yet again

[erik quanstrom]

> yeah, it would save some effort for me, I am trying to buy new
> hardware and a list would be helpful.
> 

i think that any intel pcie-based gigabit nic is supported, including

	82563		motherboard solutions.  intel 63xxesb (enterprise south bridge)
			often paired with intel 5000-based motherboards.
	82566		
	82571		e.g. intel pro 1000/pt dual and quad
	82572		e.g. intel pro 1000/pt
	82573[evl]	e.g. some thinkpad x60 models

- erik

Re: [9fans] Broadcom drivers, yet again

[Philippe Anel]

I see what you mean, Jack. Thanks to virtualization, this is no longer a 
problem. Newbies can
deal with Vmware or Qemu.
Regarding the fact vendors change their chipsets very often, I agree 
with you, this is a very
anoying problem (especially with notebooks).
The fact is you cannot say precisely on which hardware plan9 will work, 
because specs
are changing quicly.
However, there is only a few things to know :
    - Some SATA chipsets are now supported thanks to Erik, but you still 
cannot install
    plan9 to SATA devices because 9load has not been recompiled to do so 
(yet).
    - Only UHCI Usb controlers are supported, which means you can forget 
AMD/ATI
    chipset if you have to deal with usb devices (other than kbd or mouse).
    - Thanks to VESA support, almost all graphic cards are working 
(except you can have
    some freezes because realmode doesn't work well with mp).
    - Realtek and Intel networking controller are working quite well 
(sometimes you have
    to add pci ids to the sources).

Phil;

Jack Johnson a écrit :
> Newbies have an expectation, even with non-commercial software now,
> that they can take a random box, pop in a CD, and if they have any
> problems it's likely that their display looks like crap and they can't
> print (think Linux or Vista).  What might be helpful for our newbies
> is to say something like hey, a Dell GX1 through GX260 should work off
> the shelf, or an HP/Compaq models L through X but not V, no Sonys,
> whatever.  Give everyone some arbitrary measure so when they're
> eyeballing a workstation at the store or in the garage or wherever
> they don't have to boot it to find out what the integrated chipset is
> and whether or not it's supported.
>
> The wiki used to do a better job in this regard, but the problem is a
> wooden boat.  Too many models, user pool is too small, vendors change
> their chipsets with their underwear.  But, users tend to have just two
> questions in this arena: will this work with my hardware, or what
> should I buy/find to work with Plan 9?
>
> It would probably be easiest to just say it up front:
>
> "Will Plan 9 work with my hardware?"
> "Probably not all of it.  But, your mind only works with 10% of your
> brain, so it's not a big deal."
> "What hardware should I buy to work with Plan 9?"
> "...NIC: Intel PRO/100 or PRO/1000..."
> "Hey, I have that already!"
> "You just saved $40."
>
> -Jack
>
>
>   

Re: [9fans] Broadcom drivers, yet again

[erik quanstrom]

On Mon Oct 22 10:41:26 EDT 2007, xigh@free.fr wrote:
>     - Some SATA chipsets are now supported thanks to Erik, but you still 
> cannot install
>     plan9 to SATA devices because 9load has not been recompiled to do so 
> (yet).

this is not correct.  any sata chipset that will emulate the standard
interface is supported.  my cpu server is an nforce-whatever.  nvidia
sata is not supported at all.  but that chipset emulates a normal ata
device.  so i can use two drives with no problems and >40MB/s performace.
they show up as sdE0 and sdF0.

on the other hand, if you want to take advantage of what *AHCI* offers
above ata compatability mode and you want to boot from sata, you
will need to compile your own 9load (or use /n/sources/contrib/quanstro/9pxeload9).
if you use the ahci driver, you can use all 4/6 sata ports and the ide
channel at the same time, so you could boot from a small pata flash.
i tend to do this because it saves a drive and no one makes sata flash.

>     - Thanks to VESA support, almost all graphic cards are working 
> (except you can have
>     some freezes because realmode doesn't work well with mp).

doesn't work at all.  you can't switch to real mode with an mp system.
it may be possible to switch to vm86 with an mp system, but i haven't
tried.

- erik

Re: [9fans] Broadcom drivers, yet again

[Philippe Anel]

I am afraid it doesn't work with my asus M2A-VM motherboard, whatever 
the mode I select
in the bios :(.
But thanks to your driver, I can now deal with my sata devices.

> this is not correct.  any sata chipset that will emulate the standard
> interface is supported.  my cpu server is an nforce-whatever.  nvidia
> sata is not supported at all.  but that chipset emulates a normal ata
> device.  so i can use two drives with no problems and >40MB/s performace.
> they show up as sdE0 and sdF0.
>
>   

Re: [9fans] Broadcom drivers, yet again

[Richard Miller]

>>     - Thanks to VESA support, almost all graphic cards are working 
>> (except you can have
>>     some freezes because realmode doesn't work well with mp).
> 
> doesn't work at all.  you can't switch to real mode with an mp system.
> it may be possible to switch to vm86 with an mp system, but i haven't
> tried.

If you are saying that vesa can't be used with mp, I don't think that's right:

term% grep cpu /dev/kmesg
cpu0: 998MHz CentaurHauls Via C3 Eden-N (cpuid: AX 0x069A DX 0x381BA3F)
cpu1: 997MHz CentaurHauls Via C3 Eden-N (cpuid: AX 0x069A DX 0x381BA3F)
term% grep type /dev/vgactl
type vesa

Re: [9fans] Broadcom drivers, yet again

[erik quanstrom]

> term% grep cpu /dev/kmesg
> cpu0: 998MHz CentaurHauls Via C3 Eden-N (cpuid: AX 0x069A DX 0x381BA3F)
> cpu1: 997MHz CentaurHauls Via C3 Eden-N (cpuid: AX 0x069A DX 0x381BA3F)
> term% grep type /dev/vgactl
> type vesa

do you know why vesa works with via multiprocessors?
i haven't seen it work with amd/intel.  what's the difference?

- erik

Re: [9fans] Broadcom drivers, yet again

[Philippe Anel]

erik quanstrom a écrit :
>> term% grep cpu /dev/kmesg
>> cpu0: 998MHz CentaurHauls Via C3 Eden-N (cpuid: AX 0x069A DX 0x381BA3F)
>> cpu1: 997MHz CentaurHauls Via C3 Eden-N (cpuid: AX 0x069A DX 0x381BA3F)
>> term% grep type /dev/vgactl
>> type vesa
>>     
>
> do you know why vesa works with via multiprocessors?
> i haven't seen it work with amd/intel.  what's the difference?
>
> - erik
>
>   
For your information, it also works with my amd x2 processor.
I think it works because in (some?) dual core processors, the interrupts 
are always routed to only
one of the two cores. This might not be the same for dual cpu machines.
And realmode requires interrupts to be completly disabled.

Phil;

Re: [9fans] Broadcom drivers, yet again

[Richard Miller]

> do you know why vesa works with via multiprocessors?
> i haven't seen it work with amd/intel.  what's the difference?

Perhaps it only "works" well enough for my brief experiment - I normally
use native vga on a PCI video card.