Re: [9front] The Ultimate Irony

Re: [9front] The Ultimate Irony

[sl]

>     -!- mode/#cat-v [+o aiju] by ChanServ
>     -!- mode/#cat-v [+b *!*aram@9front.army] by aiju
>     -!- Aram was kicked from #cat-v by aiju [fuck you]

Is this temporary?

sl

Re: [9front] The Ultimate Irony

[hiro]

CoCs aren't just about banning people for expressing their opinions,
it's also about trying to fight real world social problems.

Re: [9front] The Ultimate Irony

[Julius Schmidt]

Yes.

I've already unbanned him.

I would be sad to see him go, especially over this bullshit.

If he was a random newbie, I would have just permabanned him and forgot 
about him, like the occasional 4chan Holocaust deniers or that asshole 
that blamed me for uriel's death and never shut up about his 
misunderstanding of mental illness.

I'm torn.

I respect(ed?) a him a lot so I don't want to just throw that away
because he has oldfashioned opinions about trans people.

But part of me also feels like I shouldn't tolerate this crap.

For the record, I don't really care about the transgender person he
commented on. It's the general principle that's bothering me.

Gender is whatever your brain ends up wired up as. In most cases this
aligns with your chromosomes, which in most cases align with your
genitalia.

But, through accidents of biology, there are people with the chromosomes
not matching their genitalia.

Now imagine MAYBE there are people, whose brains are legitimately wired in 
a way that doesn't match their chromosomes.

I know this is hard to relate to when you've never had to deal with it.

On Wed, 23 May 2018, sl@stanleylieber.com wrote:

>>     -!- mode/#cat-v [+o aiju] by ChanServ
>>     -!- mode/#cat-v [+b *!*aram@9front.army] by aiju
>>     -!- Aram was kicked from #cat-v by aiju [fuck you]
>
> Is this temporary?
>
> sl
>

Re: [9front] The Ultimate Irony

[Aram Hăvărneanu]

> I know this is hard to relate to when you've never had to deal with
> it.

I don't advertise it, but I have, and I have had many lives apart
from what I expose about myself in various online communities. I'm
friends with all kinds of groups of people that live at the fringe
of social acceptance. And some of them are trans. Not only I do
have experience relating to trans people, these experiences have
all been positive.

> Now imagine MAYBE there are people, whose brains are legitimately
> wired in a way that doesn't match their chromosomes.

There was never any doubt that this is true, and I find it bizarre
that it is implied that I do not believe it to be true. For the
record, I never doubted this was true. You make it sound like I
somehow act like trans people are not a legitimate group of people.
This can't be further from the truth, some of them are my friends!
I genuinely can't understand how you could have made this inference.

While I try to be really careful about how I express myself in
writing, sometimes on IRC I am sloppy, and perhaps I have said
something that could have been wrongly interpreted. For that, I
apologise (though I don't know what EXACTLY I said that was
interpreted like that).

> For the record, I don't really care about the transgender person
> he commented on. It's the general principle that's bothering me.

I did not attack this person for being transgender, I attacked this
person because she is crazy.

I also criticised various factions who have put her in the spotlight
as an avatar for their feminist cause. I have criticised these
factions because I believe she is a spectacularly bad example (others
might disagree). I have not criticised anyone for being trans,
though, perhaps someone could interpret what I said this way. FWIW
my trans friends also agree with me.

> oldfashioned opinions about trans people.

For the record, I must defend myself once more. I have trans friends
and I don't think I have an oldfashioned opinion about them at all.
Quite the contrary. You all don't know, but I was born in en
environment full of people who are not accepted at all by the
mainstream society (certaintly not in conservative Romania). Gay
people, ex-cons, actual astrologers, people who hammer nails in
their head, people who believe in actual ritualistic magic, trans
people, the actual drug mafia, people with weird fetishes that
interfere and dictate their regular life, etc, etc. Not that any
of these groups are in any way related to being trans, but they are
all fringe groups outside the social norm, and we get together just
fine (in fact probably more so that I get with the rest of the
mainstream society).

There seems to be this implied belief that I am somehow intolerant
towards some groups of people 9trans in this case), which is not
true, and which I find bizarre as all my life I have been involved
with groups that are hated on, and I have been myself the victim
of discriminations in many cases... It's not true.

-- 
Aram Hăvărneanu

Re: [9front] The Ultimate Irony

[Julius Schmidt]

> There was never any doubt that this is true, and I find it bizarre
> that it is implied that I do not believe it to be true. For the
> record, I never doubted this was true. You make it sound like I
> somehow act like trans people are not a legitimate group of people.
> This can't be further from the truth, some of them are my friends!
> I genuinely can't understand how you could have made this inference.

I have to concede at this point that I know absolutely nothing about
this person and quite frankly I don't care about her.

I might be a bit too trigger happy about this kind of language; usually a 
statement like "[XXX] is really a man" is a sign that the speaker does not 
or refuses to understand the concept of being transgender.

I know that many trans people are comfortable with this language and read 
it as "[XXX] was assigned male at birth" but I also think that many would 
share my interpretation and take offense if referred to as the opposite 
gender like this.

You also seemed to imply she shouldn't represent female Go programmers 
because she is not 'really' a woman or a lesser woman somehow (which also 
seems to deny the basic concept).

I have no interest in witch trials so I'll be happy to just let it slide
as a misunderstanding on my part.

> I also criticised various factions who have put her in the spotlight
> as an avatar for their feminist cause. I have criticised these
> factions because I believe she is a spectacularly bad example (others
> might disagree). I have not criticised anyone for being trans,
> though, perhaps someone could interpret what I said this way. FWIW
> my trans friends also agree with me.

I agree a lot of feminists are completely bonkers and actually
detrimental to the cause.

> There seems to be this implied belief that I am somehow intolerant
> towards some groups of people 9trans in this case), which is not
> true, [...]

I'm glad to hear that.

Feel free to come back on IRC.